Making the vampire earn its CR 13.

[Lord Vukodlak]

So I've added some things to the vampire to make it a bit tougher/ I'm not going to repost everything thats the same so I'll skip to the changes.

Str is 22 instead of 18.

Innate Telekinesis
The Vampire can cast telekinesis at will but the duration is concentration with no time limit.
Misty Step(Recharge 5-6).
The Vampire can cast Misty Step per the spell.

Telekenetic Drain(Recharge 5-6).
That Vampire targets a creature within 60ft that has less then full hit points. The creature must make a DC 18 fortitude save or take 8d8 necrotic damage as the blood is drained from the victim and pulled into the vampire. The target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken, and the vampire regains hit points equal to that amount. The reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.
A creature under the effects of a "Protection from Evil and Good" spell is immune to this ability.

Actions
Multiattack (Vampire Form Only).
The vampire makes three attacks, only one of which can be a bite attack.

Unarmed Strike (Vampire Form Only).
Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 12 (2d6 + 6) bludgeoning damage. Instead of dealing damage, the vampire can grapple the target (escape DC 20).

Bite (Bat or Vampire Form Only).
Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 5 ft., one willing creature, or a creature that is grappled by the vampire, incapacitated, or restrained. Hit: 9 (1d6 + 6) piercing damage plus 15 (6d6) necrotic damage. The target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken, and the vampire regains hit points equal to that amount. The reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0. A humanoid slain in this way and then buried in the ground rises the following night as a vampire spawn under the vampire's control.

Legendary Actions
Unarmed Strike:
The vampire makes one unarmed strike.
Bite (Costs 2 Actions).
The vampire makes one bite attack.
Telekinetic Action..
The Vampire uses its telekinesis(remember targeting a second creature would end the effect on the first).

So the major changes are, it has one more attack, the attacks deal more damage especially the bite. It can misty step at will(but limited to a recharge) and its telekenetic abilities because I really like the Legacy of Kain series.

[kingcheesepants]

I think you're correct in thinking that a vampire does not warrant such a high CR if you are looking at it in terms of a straight fight. Its HP AC and attacks are decent but nothing special and it doesn't have any notable damage abilities. It has good regeneration and the ability to poof away when defeated but that's offset by it's crazy vampire weaknesses to the sun and running water and not being able to enter into people's homes.

However if you think of vampires in a different way you'll discover that they're actually much more deadly than their CR would lead you to believe and they are capable of destroying a party of PCs of even higher levels. A vampire has no real need or desire to engage in fair combat with a group of PCs. It can shapeshift and charm people freely. Why not disguise itself as a friendly NPC and then start charming everyone? Once most of the group has been taken in this way they will gladly aid the vampire by donating their necks. A single vampire can be a big problem to a high level party if that charm works. All the vampire needs to do is avoid combat and charm the PCs bit by bit.

No need for fancy telekinesis abilities (which might be present in that one game you like but are not a normal vampire power). I like how you added Misty Step because that's pretty similar to some traditional vampire abilities and it's a big improvement as it lets the vampire run away more effectively and avoid something like a forcecage/sickening radiance microwave (what killed my poor vampire after it successfully charmed half the group but before the wizard was killed).

If charm doesn't work, it would most likely be because the players are under the protection of a spell like protection from evil and good (which would protect them from the additional abilities that you've added.) The extra attacks are nice but honestly by the time a vampire is making attacks the battle is already over. Either they've won and are biting the charmed victims. Or they've lost and are attacking as a last ditch effort. What's going to help a vampire be more dangerous are things like dispel magic and nondetection. Things that let it charm people even if those people are being careful, and avoid being found by something like locate evil and good or divine sense.

Also having advantageous terrain (desecrated perhaps?) and minions (bats, wolves, werewolves, vampire spawn) and perhaps adding in some lair actions in addition to its legendary actions and resistances would be a good way to make sure that the vampire is a worthwhile foe.

But mostly tactics. The vampire is smart and crafty and he almost certainly knows that 4v1 is a strategy for failure especially if one of the group is a paladin or a cleric. Have him play it smart and cautious and he can give the players an exciting challenge that goes beyond a simple fight.

[Valmark]

This makes them higher then CR 13, probably. You took a relatively tough monster capable of conjuring minions/hit-and-running/turning the party against itself and also gave it substantial combat abilities- which are going to be used in multiple encounters since the vampire can regenerate when killed (unless sunlight and whatever else).

But if all you wanted was a straight fight yeah, it needed the boost- part of its CR comes from features that wouldn't get used much in that situation.

[MoiMagnus]

In order to confirm your feelings about the MM's Vampire's CR, I've entered its stats into a CR calculator (https://5e.tools/crcalculator.html#13,16,50,9,false,Medium,17,18,fa lse,res,false,2,mf-legendary-resistance:3,mf-regeneration:20).

If you follow DMG guidelines, it is a CR13, just a very unbalanced one: Offensive CR 8, Defensive CR 18. Additionally a substantial part of his defensive CR is coming from his resistance to non-magical damage (irrelevant against PCs) and his regeneration (irrelevant for short combats). Meaning that it is a CR13 threat to the society, but as it has no chances of actually damaging Tier 3 PCs.

[stoutstien]

All the classic monster npcs are softer than thier CR would predict and I think it was attentional. They are more useful as low level BBEGs than straight encounter fodder.

[da newt]

You are right - IF a vampire stands and fights never leaving the room the party encounters it in, it falls short of it's CR rating especially offensively.
However (as other have stated) IF it acts more like an Apex Predator stalking the party and picking off the weakest one by one over the course of a few days, and taking full advantage of it's minions, charm and stealth, it is a truly formidable foe as is.


For this creature its all about encounter design and tactics. A stubborn vampire who takes on the party like the revolutionary war red coats marching always forward does not live to a ripe old age.

[heavyfuel]

The MM Vampire is just a regular schmuck that got turned into one. That's a CR 13 Vamp, and as kingcheesepants pointed out, they can definitely be worthy of that number.

Vampires that will actually pose a risk to the party are other NPCs that were turned. It's not uncommon in D&D to have Vampire Wizards, Vampire Fighters, or Vampire Rogues. Give a Vampire the casting of a MM Mage (with better spell selection) and they are now a force to be reckoned with. Give them some Rogue abilities like Sneak Attack and Cunning Action and watch them become a master of hit-and-run fighting style, slowly but surely draining the party of resources until it can finish them off.

[Zhorn]

Yep, minion-mancy, hit-n-run, charms, regen, it all comes down to how you run the combats.
A vamp that stands still and takes a beating deserves to die.
A vampire that uses guerilla warfare can wear down a part over time, turning a single creature into a full adventuring day's worth of combats.

[mistajames]

Yeah, the PHB Vampire isn't really going to challenge a T3 party. Saying that the vampire will "play more intelligently" or "hit-and-run" isn't going to change that.

1. Every intelligent monster should be played intelligently. A Beholder or an Adult Brass Dragon is of comparable intelligence to a Vampire (and each is CR13) but they are each a far greater threat to a typical party.
2. AC16 is not particularly high - certainly not against PCs of this level. 144 HP is also not a lot. Resistance to nonmagical weapons is not particularly useful at this level (though not irrelevant, as summons may still be affected). Regeneration is likely to have minimal impact (either it won't survive long enough for it to matter or the PCs will negate it).
3. The PCs have far more resources to "play intelligently" at this level than monsters typically do.
4. Its weaknesses are very relevant. "Running Water" and "Sunlight" can be replicated somewhat easily by T3.
5. Its type (undead) is also a "hidden weakness", as lots of common spells/abilities are extra effective vs undead.

Now, if you beef up the Vampire's HP, give it a couple class abilities relevant to its backstory, and give it a few magic items, might be a threat. A vampire with Cunning Action and Sneak Attack, Action Surge, or 14 levels of Sorcerer casting and metamagic is a much greater threat.

[heavyfuel]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is the fact that a single creature of CR = party level isn't going to be a difficult challenge most of the time. At best they are a drain on resources.

A single Ogre vs a party of 4 level 2 PCs isn't a huge challenge. It might drop one PC to 0HP if it hits and rolls well, but then it'll quickly be brought down.

By this logic, a MM Vampire shouldn't be facing a level 13 party and expecting to win. Make it a level 10 party, and now it's a proper challenge.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A vampire is an attrition opponent. It can turn into a cloud of mist and retreat somewhere that's inaccessible to the PCs, heal 20 hp per round while summoning things or just waiting, then come back fresh and resume fighting them. It's not meant to be a toe-to-toe encounter.

[mistajames]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is the fact that a single creature of CR = party level isn't going to be a difficult challenge most of the time. At best they are a drain on resources.

A single Ogre vs a party of 4 level 2 PCs isn't a huge challenge. It might drop one PC to 0HP if it hits and rolls well, but then it'll quickly be brought down.

By this logic, a MM Vampire shouldn't be facing a level 13 party and expecting to win. Make it a level 10 party, and now it's a proper challenge.

Honestly, our level 7 party (GWM Fighter/Life Cleric/Moon Druid/Paladin) could have dropped a MM Vampire with moderate effort. It just isn't a very threatening monster for its CR.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, our level 7 party (GWM Fighter/Life Cleric/Moon Druid/Paladin) could have dropped a MM Vampire with moderate effort. It just isn't a very threatening monster for its CR.

In a straight fight? Yeah, probably.

With the Vampire using every tick in the book? Easier said than done.

[MaxWilson]

Honestly, our level 7 party (GWM Fighter/Life Cleric/Moon Druid/Paladin) could have dropped a MM Vampire with moderate effort. It just isn't a very threatening monster for its CR.

That party is melee-oriented, which means to me it looks like the party is going to die messily over the course of at most an hour, except for the ones who wind up charmed.

Sounds like it's time for another tactical challenge thread. :)


Yeah, the PHB Vampire isn't really going to challenge a T3 party. Saying that the vampire will "play more intelligently" or "hit-and-run" isn't going to change that.

1. Every intelligent monster should be played intelligently. A Beholder or an Adult Brass Dragon is of comparable intelligence to a Vampire (and each is CR13) but they are each a far greater threat to a typical party.
2. AC16 is not particularly high - certainly not against PCs of this level. 144 HP is also not a lot. Resistance to nonmagical weapons is not particularly useful at this level (though not irrelevant, as summons may still be affected). Regeneration is likely to have minimal impact (either it won't survive long enough for it to matter or the PCs will negate it).
3. The PCs have far more resources to "play intelligently" at this level than monsters typically do.
4. Its weaknesses are very relevant. "Running Water" and "Sunlight" can be replicated somewhat easily by T3.
5. Its type (undead) is also a "hidden weakness", as lots of common spells/abilities are extra effective vs undead.

Now, if you beef up the Vampire's HP, give it a couple class abilities relevant to its backstory, and give it a few magic items, might be a threat. A vampire with Cunning Action and Sneak Attack, Action Surge, or 14 levels of Sorcerer casting and metamagic is a much greater threat.

Eh....

(1) a Beholder by itself is actually far more easily countered than a Vampire (Darkness or other heavy obscurement basically neuters it, Telekinesis notwithstanding), which means the Beholder's intellect is best focused on acquiring minions. But a vampire is actually better at acquiring minions than a beholder is! (Can generate vampire spawn, and charm humanoids for 24 hours.)

(2) A vampire can e.g. sacrifice its action to Dodge and then use Legendary Actions for its attacks. Or it can Charm as its action and use Legendary Actions to kite away 90', without taking opportunity attacks. Or it can just be aggressive and Charm AND attack with its legendary actions while using only one legendary action to kite, especially if it's at full HP and not surrounded yet.

(3) What matters here is that some monsters have more tools than others. The vampire's tools are fairly extensive. Against skilled players of the appropriate level, yes, the vampire will have to run away or die, but show me a monster for which that isn't true. And at least it can run away, unlike e.g. a Beholder.

(4) Those weaknesses aren't that big a deal. It just means the vampire will run away and counter-ambush you in the dark, later on in the adventure. If you light it up with a Sunlight spell or something, it can just withdraw behind total cover using its legendary actions and wait it out, losing nothing but time and any minions it had invested in the current fight.

(5) Not nearly as many as are effective against "humanoids". See for example: vampire Charm, Hold Person, Spawn of Kyuss, etc. Creature type is a two-edged sword. That fact that anti-undead spells work well against vampires is a feature, not a bug.

[x3n0n]

That party is melee-oriented, which means to me it looks like the party is going to die messily over the course of at most an hour, except for the ones who wind up charmed.

Sounds like it's time for another tactical challenge thread. :)

We actually did kill a Vampire at level 7, but the (inexperienced and tactics-averse) DM was complicit. The vampire voluntarily walked across a sunny courtyard and got double-grappled while unable to transform, and no charming was attempted. Shrug.

[MaxWilson]

We actually did kill a Vampire at level 7, but the (inexperienced and tactics-averse) DM was complicit. The vampire voluntarily walked across a sunny courtyard and got double-grappled while unable to transform, and no charming was attempted. Shrug.

Heh. Sounds like that vampire earned his Darwin Award. : ) That's the vampire equivalent of "my AC 13 wizard tried to melee a Fire Giant and got hammered flat."

[Eldariel]

That party is melee-oriented, which means to me it looks like the party is going to die messily over the course of at most an hour, except for the ones who wind up charmed.

Sounds like it's time for another tactical challenge thread. :)

There already was that one with a slightly modded Vampire, though it didn't have good charmfodder and performed remarkably poorly (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623813-Tactical-Challenge-A-Few-Minutes-or-An-Eternity-(lvl-6-PCs-survival-vs-boss)). I know you know since yours is literally the first response. But still, it's at least kinda similar; though modifying the environment and the victory conditions and party task can of course change a lot.

[Amnestic]

I think it's neat that a Vampire's charm can be done while in bat form.

Feasibly if there's some bats around (which...it's a vampire, bats are a staple!), the vamp can blend in with the seemingly innocuous flyboys and just casually attempt charms on the party with impunity. A vamp could charm the entire party from 30' away before being discovered, since you don't know when you make/fail a saving throw. It's not like being charmed by a vampire you're not aware of will immediately make you start acting differently and provoke a reaction. The players will know something's up from all the saves they're rolling, but the characters...not so much?

[MaxWilson]

There already was that one with a slightly modded Vampire, though it didn't have good charmfodder and performed remarkably poorly (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623813-Tactical-Challenge-A-Few-Minutes-or-An-Eternity-(lvl-6-PCs-survival-vs-boss)). I know you know since yours is literally the first response. But still, it's at least kinda similar; though modifying the environment and the victory conditions and party task can of course change a lot.

I know but had forgotten, thanks. I also never got around to actually running this fight (got distracted by other things, which may have been partly psychological because watching the PCs die is depressing) but to the extent the vampire did poorly it has a lot to do with the 2 minute time limit and the vampire being constrained to be overly aggressive ("If she takes 50+ damages in one turn, or is at below 60 HPs on her turn when she can't regenerate, Katarina will retreat to heal until she is back at at least 100 HPs.") leading to fragility, and underutilization of Charm ("The vampire will only attempt a Charm if she's not in melee range with anyone, and if the other adventurers are in no position to hit her with ranged attacks.").

I do know that my Boneclaw (same situation but a Boneclaw, before the bad guy was revealed to be a vampire) was winning the fight up until the Fire Elemental caught up to him and prevented him from teleporting away, and that turned the tide of the entire fight. An actual vampire wouldn't care about being brightly illuminated, they'd be able to kite away with Legendary Actions anyway.

I think with revised tactics that vampire could probably TPK any party posted in that thread 75%+ of the time, and if you eliminate the two-minute time limit then 90%+ of the time.


I think it's neat that a Vampire's charm can be done while in bat form.

Feasibly if there's some bats around (which...it's a vampire, bats are a staple!), the vamp can blend in with the seemingly innocuous flyboys and just casually attempt charms on the party with impunity. A vamp could charm the entire party from 30' away before being discovered, since you don't know when you make/fail a saving throw. It's not like being charmed by a vampire you're not aware of will immediately make you start acting differently and provoke a reaction. The players will know something's up from all the saves they're rolling, but the characters...not so much?

Oh, that's evil! Especially since vampires have +9 to Stealth. As long as you Hide outside the PCs' darkvision radius, there's no guarantee they'll even see you flying overhead, Charming them.

It's also interesting that vampire Charm doesn't have the usual 5E limitation of "once a target saves or the effect ends, they are immune for the next 24 hours." Basically, if there's not a Paladin of Devotion in the party, everybody is going to wind up charmed eventually unless you manage to nova the vampire to death.

[Eldariel]

Oh, that's evil! Especially since vampires have +9 to Stealth. As long as you Hide outside the PCs' darkvision radius, there's no guarantee they'll even see you flying overhead, Charming them.

It's also interesting that vampire Charm doesn't have the usual 5E limitation of "once a target saves or the effect ends, they are immune for the next 24 hours." Basically, if there's not a Paladin of Devotion in the party, everybody is going to wind up charmed eventually unless you manage to nova the vampire to death.

Vampire is one of those creatures that highlights the skillsets outside the pure combat ones. E.g. a Paladin's Divine Sense can actually give you a lot of value if you have any reason to suspect that there's indeed something funny going on (an Insight check would probably suffice if someone got charmed). Of course, it's all down to what the party is doing. A party would basically never just hang around in a location for no reason; they're always doing something and if the vampire is related, they're probably at elevated readiness which may let them break its cover and quickly dispose of it. Meanwhile, if the party is tasked with something totally different, e.g. trying to steal a seal from the king in a royal ball, the Vampire's presence may go entirely unnoticed and, provided the Vamp is interested in specifically harming the party, they may end up in terrible straits very quickly without ever realising they're being picked off.

[DwarfFighter]

Ok, so the Vampire is only worth it's CR 13 if you DON'T rely on his capabilities in direct conflict. But exactly what makes it worth the CR if you change its tactics? If the Vampire does a "smart move" that could just as well have been pulled by a resourceful Goblin, that shouldn't count towards the Vampire's Cr (otherwise Goblins should have a higher CR!).

[Eldariel]

Ok, so the Vampire is only worth it's CR 13 if you DON'T rely on his capabilities in direct conflict. But exactly what makes it worth the CR if you change its tactics? If the Vampire does a "smart move" that could just as well have been pulled by a resourceful Goblin, that shouldn't count towards the Vampire's Cr (otherwise Goblins should have a higher CR!).

Night Hag (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Night%20Hag#content) is probably the worst argument to the contrary: at CR5 the party has absolutely no chance of stopping its ethereal haunting (Blink just isn't reliable enough) and it can just keep Nightmare Haunting ethereally forever eventually killing the whole party that can't get a rest off. In this case, it feels like the abilities aren't accounted for at all in the CR. CR5 seems about fair for it as a combat encounter if it fights and kites: the fact that it's essentially untargetable and unreachable for the party whenever it wants and can harm the party while that way kinda makes it ridiculous.

[stoutstien]

Ok, so the Vampire is only worth it's CR 13 if you DON'T rely on his capabilities in direct conflict. But exactly what makes it worth the CR if you change its tactics? If the Vampire does a "smart move" that could just as well have been pulled by a resourceful Goblin, that shouldn't count towards the Vampire's Cr (otherwise Goblins should have a higher CR!).

CR is a rough guess of challenge at most. so yea, it's not working as intended lol.

[MaxWilson]

Ok, so the Vampire is only worth it's CR 13 if you DON'T rely on his capabilities in direct conflict. But exactly what makes it worth the CR if you change its tactics? If the Vampire does a "smart move" that could just as well have been pulled by a resourceful Goblin, that shouldn't count towards the Vampire's Cr (otherwise Goblins should have a higher CR!).

It's about the combination of relatively high HP, high mobility, and regeneration, plus Charm. A goblin can't burn 100 HP every minute strafing you with Charm and/or unarmed attacks and then retreating out of range. If you hit a goblin even once with a Fireball, it's gone, but even if you hit a vampire with 16d8 (72) of Divine Smites and 8d6 (28) of Fireball in exchange for losing one PC to Charm (which someone else cures with Calm Emotions)... the vampire just won that exchange. You spent a ton of Paladin slots and a Fireball and a Calm Emotions to accomplish absolutely nothing, because the vampire will come back in thirty seconds at full health.

Even Meteor Swarm won't reliably kill a vampire. (37% chance to roll at least 144 on Meteor Swarm's 40d6, but it has a 55% chance to save against even DC 19 Dex saves, and then even if it fails it can just burn a Legendary Resistance.) One legendary action later, it's zipping away and perhaps already behind total cover.

For this reason Vampire Spawns are much, much weaker than full Vampires: they lack the mobility, so their regeneration is basically irrelevant.


Night Hag (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Night%20Hag#content) is probably the worst argument to the contrary: at CR5 the party has absolutely no chance of stopping its ethereal haunting (Blink just isn't reliable enough) and it can just keep Nightmare Haunting ethereally forever eventually killing the whole party that can't get a rest off. In this case, it feels like the abilities aren't accounted for at all in the CR. CR5 seems about fair for it as a combat encounter if it fights and kites: the fact that it's essentially untargetable and unreachable for the party whenever it wants and can harm the party while that way kinda makes it ridiculous.

Nightmare Haunting only works 1/day, so the affected PC loses nothing but time. "A character can’t benefit from more than one Long Rest in a 24-hour period", but Nightmare Haunting says "If these visions last for at least 1 hour, the target gains no benefit from its rest," so the character can just go back to sleep rest for another 8 hours and THEN gain the benefit. That is, if they realize what's happening.

So, the Night Hag can theoretically be a nuisance forever at 5th level although locating said PC every night is easier said than done, and the party may want to deal with her sooner or later, but she can't actually TPK the party by herself.

Oh, I forgot about the 1d10 Max HP reduction. I guess in that case it all comes down to whether she can locate the PCs frequently enough to slooowly kill them before they can level up enough to learn Greater Restoration. And Elves of course are immune because they don't sleep.

Edit: correction, she cannot TPK them after all nor reduce their max HP if they get smart enough to wake each other up when they're having nightmares. The max HP reduction occurs only if the visions last 1 hour or more.

Incidentally, what's the point of Soul Bag?

[Lord Vukodlak]

The problem with charm is first it’s range 30ft. So he has to get close. And the target has to be able to see the vampire. So he has to stand in the open to do so. So a few of the stealth tactics posters are suggesting don’t work.

Charm is also not domination the vampire is now the PCs trusted friend but so our the other PCs. It turns an enemy to ally but not an ally to an enemy.
And there are of course multiple ways to deal with charm aside from protection from evil. Calm Emotions for example.

An actually intelligent vampire isn’t going to seek out armed adventures their are easier prey. If the PCs don’t know a vampire is in the area he’s not going to make them aware.

So the fight against the master should happen because the PCs are tasked with fighting the vampire. Or if they just stumble into his home on accident.

And if his only trick to actually fight is runaway and charm. But once cornered he’s a complete pushover. It’s kinda anti-climatic when you corner the guy in his lair.


If charm doesn't work, it would most likely be because the players are under the protection of a spell like protection from evil and good (which would protect them from the additional abilities that you've added.)
*Only the telekinetic blood drain not the normal telekinesis

[Amnestic]

Charm is also not domination the vampire is now the PCs trusted friend but so our the other PCs.

It does say the vampire will be "heeded and protected". If the vampire's under attack by the other PCs, the charmed individual should intervene. Maybe non-lethally, but they're going to protect the vampire, giving it more chances to charm others.

Prot from Evil+Good is limited to one person and concentration, so unless you can all cast it, you're not going to protect the whole party.

Which is fine, the vampire's not meant to be immune or unstoppable, but if the party's expending resources (actions, concentration, spell slots) and then still having to deal with the charm, that's...I mean that's the idea right? Rewarding proper preparation while not letting it be rolled over.

[MaxWilson]

The problem with charm is first it’s range 30ft. So he has to get close. And the target has to be able to see the vampire. So he has to stand in the open to do so. So a few of the stealth tactics posters are suggesting don’t work.

Good call on the target having to see the vampire. At the very least PCs will know they are being shadowed by bats.

As far as range goes, use legendary action to move from 60' to 30' right before your turn, then Charm and use your movement to move back to 60'. You're still safe from melee PCs if you it this way, except for Monks or maybe some Rogues.


Charm is also not domination the vampire is now the PCs trusted friend but so our the other PCs. It turns an enemy to ally but not an ally to an enemy.
And there are of course multiple ways to deal with charm aside from protection from evil. Calm Emotions for example.

Right, but eventually you run out of Calm Emotions because vampire Charm is at-will and repeatable. And yeah, it's not domination, but it's still charm, which means it removes that PC from the fight (can no longer attack). Once the whole party is charmed, the vampire can eliminate them one by one and they can't attack back. (They can technically do things like Fireball an area the vampire just happens to be in, because that's not targeting the vampire with an attack, but that's an abuse of a technicality and also probably not enough to save whoever the vampire is attacking.)


An actually intelligent vampire isn’t going to seek out armed adventures their are easier prey. If the PCs don’t know a vampire is in the area he’s not going to make them aware.

(A) So the fight against the master should happen because the PCs are tasked with fighting the vampire. Or if they just stumble into his home on accident.

And if his (C) only trick to actually fight is runaway and charm. (B) But once cornered he’s a complete pushover. It’s kinda anti-climatic when you corner the guy in his lair.

*Only the telekinetic blood drain not the normal telekinesis

(A) Or the master takes it upon himself to confront/intimidate/destroy the PCs, with or without his dozens of vampire spawns and wolves backing him up. NPCs don't have to wait passively for PCs to show up.

(B) Not only is that exactly in keeping with how a villain should be, but it's also what happened to Dracula, unless you believe Fred Saberhagen's version of the story (https://www.amazon.com/Dracula-Tape-Saberhagens-Book-ebook/dp/B004UT5ZEI/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=). TL;DR "It was sunset, and at night Dracula can turn to mist, duh. Did you really think he turned to mist because you killed him?"

(C) Dodge + 3x (legendary) Unarmed Strike isn't a bad trick either. You cut your damage output by 40% to cut the PCs' damage output by around 50% and also buy more time for your regen to work.

[Asisreo1]

Ok, so the Vampire is only worth it's CR 13 if you DON'T rely on his capabilities in direct conflict. But exactly what makes it worth the CR if you change its tactics? If the Vampire does a "smart move" that could just as well have been pulled by a resourceful Goblin, that shouldn't count towards the Vampire's Cr (otherwise Goblins should have a higher CR!).
A Vampire's "Smart Move" isn't hiding behind cover and doing ranged attacks.

A Vampire's "Smart Move" is attacking at the middle of the night roughly a few miles away from the castle. This ensures even if it loses, they'll be right back within an hour (not enough for the party to recharge most stuff) to stress them out more.

They will ambush the party while visibility is low. They will target the Paladin with the Charm at first, they're likely to have only a +1 Wis mod meaning they have a 50% chance to fail and be charmed. With the paladin on their side, they gain the benefits of their aura. Next, target the wizard with your Unarmed Strikes and Bites (remember! You regain roughly 10 HP every successful bite and you can bite up to twice per round). Avoid the cleric and have your Children of the Night distract him. The more he's doing something more urgent, the less he's turning you or clearing the charm off of your Paladin friend.

Understand that you might not succeed this time, but you have all your abilities and HP (except CotN) only an hour after a defeat but the party will hardly have the same amount of resources they had before.

A smart Vampire beats them with relentless attrition throughout the night.

[Waterdeep Merch]

These are some pretty decent offensive changes. MoiMagnus is right in that this is their primary weakness as a credible threat, but I don't think it's their only problem as a potential boss monster:

Higher HP will really help the vampire. I'd just outright ignore the weapon resistances, count the vulnerability to radiant as more important than the regeneration because of how it interacts, and give them appropriate HP based on this. I'd aim for something like 375 HP for any game where your party will reasonably have access to magical weaponry and plentiful radiant attacks. Reduce to 250 if they have limited or no radiant options or have no normal access to magical weaponry, and back to normal if they have neither magical weaponry nor radiant weaponry.

And when calculating their CR, also consider if either the sun or running water is likely to come into play. If either, boost things by yet another ~125.

So a party with a cleric with both sacred flame and daylight as well as magic weapons for everyone ought to fight a vampire with roughly 500 HP. Yes, that looks silly. But at least the poor Dracula-wannabe will last a few rounds. The first time I ran CoS, Strahd died in two rounds the moment my level 7 party caught him with daylight. This was alongside half a dozen vampire spawn, a few animated weapons, and terrain that favored them. The second time, I gave him a few magic items and a room of animated armors and he lasted about two rounds against a level 8 party. The third time, a level 8 Immortal Mystic with the Sunsword solo'd him in three while the rest of the party dealt with a small army of mooks. 500 HP would have made him less underwhelming in every case.

This is all based on the logic that the MM grossly overemphasizes the importance of resistances/immunities that don't actually apply to most standard parties and absurdly lowers the HP of most boss-level monsters accordingly. Dragons are impressive partly because they don't have these things counting against them. Your mileage can and will vary based on party composition, tactics, available resources, etc etc, naturally.

[MaxWilson]

They will ambush the party while visibility is low. They will target the Paladin with the Charm at first, they're likely to have only a +1 Wis mod meaning they have a 50% chance to fail and be charmed.

Unless it's the only paladin worthy of the archetype name (Devotion), in which case the Charm 100% fails, unless the paladin is both unconscious and yet still able to see the vampire.

People like to praise Ancients paladin for spell damage resistance but IMO charm immunity is more important.


So a party with a cleric with both sacred flame and daylight as well as magic weapons for everyone ought to fight a vampire with roughly 500 HP. Yes, that looks silly. But at least the poor Dracula-wannabe will last a few rounds. The first time I ran CoS, Strahd died in two rounds the moment my level 7 party caught him with daylight. This was alongside half a dozen vampire spawn, a few animated weapons, and terrain that favored them. The second time, I gave him a few magic items and a room of animated armors and he lasted about two rounds against a level 8 party. The third time, a level 8 Immortal Mystic with the Sunsword solo'd him in three while the rest of the party dealt with a small army of mooks. 500 HP would have made him less underwhelming in every case.

Daylight isn't even sunlight, so it hardly affects Strahd. (Just limits his ability to Hide within the illuminated area, unless he's invisible.) Also, vampires shouldn't fight for multiple rounds in a row--if you're significantly damaged, back off for a few seconds and recharge. (And if you're a spellcaster like Strahd, come in buffed with Greater Invisibility or something.)

I would think twice about tripling HP--500 HP is not just 10x as strong as a normal man, that's like... as strong as a bank vault. It risks coming off as being "as strong as a pile of numbers" instead of something anchored in gameworld fiction.

[Lord Vukodlak]

One tactic that hasn’t been addressed is a PC can simply avert his eyes at the end of his turn. He has to see the vampire and the vampire has to spend and action for charm to work.

Sure it means the vampire has advantage to hit you but it is effective. Cheap? Yes but no cheaper then kite and charm.

[MaxWilson]

One tactic that hasn’t been addressed is a PC can simply avert his eyes at the end of his turn. He has to see the vampire and the vampire has to spend and action for charm to work.

Sure it means the vampire has advantage to hit you but it is effective. Cheap? Yes but no cheaper then kite and charm.

I don't think it's cheap, but I'm not sure it's very effective either, unless you have a whole party full of PCs who hit like trucks and are nigh-unkillable even with their eyes closed.

Also it doesn't prevent the vampire from Readying an action to charm them as soon as they open their eyes, so I think this is a net loss for the PCs: just makes them easier to hit.

[Asisreo1]

One tactic that hasn’t been addressed is a PC can simply avert his eyes at the end of his turn. He has to see the vampire and the vampire has to spend and action for charm to work.

Sure it means the vampire has advantage to hit you but it is effective. Cheap? Yes but no cheaper then kite and charm.
True, but the vampire is probably more interested in biting you and reducing both your HP maximum and replenishing their HP, at least at that point they are.

Lets not underestimate exactly how dangerous HP-max reductions are. With 2 bites per round, you could remove 60 maximum HP from a character in a 3 turns.

[Zhorn]

The problem with charm is first it’s range 30ft. So he has to get close. And the target has to be able to see the vampire. So he has to stand in the open to do so. So a few of the stealth tactics posters are suggesting don’t work.

There's no requirement for the vampire to be on the ground. Spider Climb lets them hang from walls or the ceiling, so they can be within 30ft while still being out of melee range, or even as a method of stalking and stealthing up to the party to get in range to begin with.

[Angelalex242]

A Vampire's "Smart Move" isn't hiding behind cover and doing ranged attacks.

A Vampire's "Smart Move" is attacking at the middle of the night roughly a few miles away from the castle. This ensures even if it loses, they'll be right back within an hour (not enough for the party to recharge most stuff) to stress them out more.

They will ambush the party while visibility is low. They will target the Paladin with the Charm at first, they're likely to have only a +1 Wis mod meaning they have a 50% chance to fail and be charmed. With the paladin on their side, they gain the benefits of their aura. Next, target the wizard with your Unarmed Strikes and Bites (remember! You regain roughly 10 HP every successful bite and you can bite up to twice per round). Avoid the cleric and have your Children of the Night distract him. The more he's doing something more urgent, the less he's turning you or clearing the charm off of your Paladin friend.

Understand that you might not succeed this time, but you have all your abilities and HP (except CotN) only an hour after a defeat but the party will hardly have the same amount of resources they had before.

A smart Vampire beats them with relentless attrition throughout the night.

Silly goose, you forgot Paladins have +5 from Charisma and proficiency in Wisdom Saves. That Paladin is typically packing wisdom saves equal to or +1 to the Cleric's wisdom save. And the cleric/druid standing next to the paladin has his own +5+proficiency+5 from the aura.

The vampire wants to target people with lousy wisdom saves and hope the Paladin isn't Devotion Oath.

[greenstone]

My biggest problem with vampires (and with most monsters in general) is that they can't actually get away.

In bat form, they have a speed of 30 and in mist form a speed of 20. That's pathetic. Every party of the appropriate level is going to to have one or more charcters be able to keep up with the vampire and pummel it to death.

If they get the vampire to 0 and it turns into mist then all they have to do is walk/fly/whatever along with the mist*, follow it to its coffin, and stake it (or whatever).

_____
* The mist can only move 80 ft a round (20 ft normal move, three uses of the move legendary action, it cannot use Dash). While it is not affected by difficult terrain, neither will a party of the appropriate level.

[MaxWilson]

My biggest problem with vampires (and with most monsters in general) is that they can't actually get away.

In bat form, they have a speed of 30 and in mist form a speed of 20. That's pathetic. Every party of the appropriate level is going to to have one or more charcters be able to keep up with the vampire and pummel it to death.


Huh? How often does a party have someone capable of flying 150' a round? IME it's rare unless you've got e.g. a monk with Fly.

On the other hand, when the vampire is at zero HP in mist form, you don't actually have to follow it back to its coffin in order to kill it--instead just hit it until it dies from failed death saves. It's not immune to damage, it's just not unconscious.

[Amnestic]

One tactic that hasn’t been addressed is a PC can simply avert his eyes at the end of his turn. He has to see the vampire and the vampire has to spend and action for charm to work.


Averting your eyes isn't a standard rule, and if you're taking it from another monster (eg. Medusa) you have to do it at the start of your turn, which means effectively being blinded to the vampire - disadvantage on attacks, can't cast spells that require you to see the target, etc.

Allowing players to avert their eyes is fine, in my opinion, but letting them do it at the end of the turn? Nah.

[DwarfFighter]

Huh? How often does a party have someone capable of flying 150' a round? IME it's rare unless you've got e.g. a monk with Fly.

On the other hand, when the vampire is at zero HP in mist form, you don't actually have to follow it back to its coffin in order to kill it--instead just hit it until it dies from failed death saves. It's not immune to damage, it's just not unconscious.

Always fight where the vampire in mist form can seep directly into the terrain on its first movec, e.g. into a sewer drain or narrow crevasse.

Player: "What? He's running away through a 1" crack in the stone wall? That wasn't in the room description!"

GM: "You are in a crumbling catacomb and exploring by torchlight. Damn right that wasn't in the room description!"

Player: "Shenanigans!"

Seriously though, you can even have the vampire attack while there is fog, and he is essentially gone the moment he turns into mist.

[Zhorn]

It's a large part of having a monster either live up to or underperform compared to their statblock, and one of the reasons I dislike using whiteroom simulations to determine of anything is 'strong' or 'weak' (useful to know, but not ideal to treat as a baseline).
If you want a creature of any type to just be another forgettable mook fight, run the combat to the death, hand out the xp, and move on. Goblin, dragon, vampire, doesn't matter.
If you want to have the fight be notable, then you play the monster as being notable. Use the mechanics either from the creature's statblock, or the general rules available to all players/NPCs and maximize the value of their own attacks while minimizing or negating that of the opposition.
Goblins that spread out, attack at range, then run and hide for each of their turns will cause more damage and be harder for the party to eliminate quickly compared to a cluster of goblins that stay grouped together and attack in melee.
Dragons that stay airborne and prioritize flyby attacks and breath weapons are going to be far more dangerous than a grounded dragon that lets the party ang up on them.

Tucker's Kobolds for example didn't become famous for having a beefed up statblock or magic items. It was an encounter using regular kobolds, terrain, positioning, and cheep common adventuring gear.

If a monster is underperforming, it's usually how they are being played which is the problem.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Unless it's the [COLOR="#800080"]Daylight isn't even sunlight, so it hardly affects Strahd. (Just limits his ability to Hide within the illuminated area, unless he's invisible.) Also, vampires shouldn't fight for multiple rounds in a row--if you're significantly damaged, back off for a few seconds and recharge. (And if you're a spellcaster like Strahd, come in buffed with Greater Invisibility or something.)

I would think twice about tripling HP--500 HP is not just 10x as strong as a normal man, that's like... as strong as a bank vault. It risks coming off as being "as strong as a pile of numbers" instead of something anchored in gameworld fiction.
I had to look that up that daylight thing, had a good laugh. When I told my usual players, they were extremely angry about it. After some discussion, we arrived at houseruling it to provide sunlight in a 15 foot radius. They hated the idea that a spell called daylight didn't create sunlight, but they did agree that it was cheesy busted against things like vampires and needed reigning in under our older interpretations.

Without daylight causing that much havoc, no, I wouldn't recommend 500 HP under any circumstance. Even if you fought said-vampire in the day. That's more of a narrative weakness at that point, meant to quickly reduce the vampire to ashes if you can get them outside.

[Nagog]

Here's what I would do to up the threat level:
Either remove the 24 hour time limit on their Charm ability or (this is a bit iffy as it's a bit of a sensitive topic) roll the charm Wisdom save on behalf of the players. If this seemingly good NPC is always around when various party members are subjected to Wisdom saves, OOC the players are going to be super suspicious and likely metagame, even if it's subconscious.
Secondly: Give them the capacity to disguise themselves at will. Shapeshifting, Disguise Self, etc.
Lastly, give them access to the Modify Memory spell. In the middle of the night, when a charmed party member is asleep, have them roll a Wis save against the spell. If they fail: Nothing happens. They wake up and find their hit point maximum slightly reduced. If they succeed, they may remember a visitor in the night they didn't recognize and a sharp pain in their neck.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Huh? How often does a party have someone capable of flying 150' a round? IME it's rare unless you've got e.g. a monk with Fly.
A Psi Warrior infused with Haste, can use Psi-Powered Leap for 120' of flying, without Dashing. Not every character can 'cheetah sprint'..this is true...but,now, more characters can anime sprint, than just monks.


On the other hand, when the vampire is at zero HP in mist form, you don't actually have to follow it back to its coffin in order to kill it--instead just hit it until it dies from failed death saves. It's not immune to damage, it's just not unconscious.
I postulate that the Vampire stat block was one that was completed early on in the design process...and never really looked at again before publishing.

I would love a vampire stat block 're-write'. I wish the mist form of the vampire was immune to spells. Limping home at 20' per round in aerosolized form is an ignoble end...but it is the fate ensured by how the ability is worded.

A vampire has an hour to get back to their resting place. Given the movement restriction on the mist form, a maximum range a vampire has to safely return to their grave dirt resting place is approximately 2.75 miles. Spamming spells that target the Vaporized Vamp's mental stats and can delay it for an hour can be the end of it.

Why Vampires lack Lair Actions is utterly baffling..❓🧛🏻❓
Vamps are not immune to poison. Vamps are not immune to disease.
Constitution Saving Throws are vampire's weakest saving throw..
( outside INT). Also if you can control a vampire's grave dirt, you can control the vampire.

Master Vampires probably should create vampire spawn in crèches, with multiple spawn 'birthed' from a single mass grave. This single vampire 'generation' could share resting places. I also imagine Master Vampires have stored stores of dirt for their spawn. Desperate spawn, that have been freed and risen to be CR13 Vampires in their own right, might swear fealty to their progenitor if their Vampire Sire had the last bit of grave dirt left in existence for that particular vampire.

Vampire's might spawn like sea turtles, with certain gravesites being traditional.

[MaxWilson]

I would love a vampire stat block 're-write'. I wish the mist form of the vampire was immune to spells. Limping home at 20' per round in aerosolized form is an ignoble end...but it is the fate ensured by how the ability is worded.

Heh. I'd even settle for "immune to grappling."

But the right way to do it is probably "cannot be targeted by attacks, spells, or effects," i.e. only vulnerable to AoEs.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Immune to "Grappled and Restrained"....Mist Form Dracula is not likely to fail as save against an Entangle spell...but it happens.
(I learnt the hard way to always keep an use of Legendary Resistance for Mist Form).

A Bard can use Countercharm, at 6th level. Sprinkle in a monk to Stunning Strike, and a Paladin to apply Radiant Damage after a successful Stun and the player's can start playing their own game of attrition....an vampire might just 'call it night' once all of their Legendary Resistance uses are spent.

[Democratus]

How do you normally kill a Vampire in 5e?

Every time you reduce it to 0 HP it turns to mist. Is there some special rule about reducing it to 0 HP while in its coffin? Or do you have to use sunlight or running water?

[MaxWilson]

How do you normally kill a Vampire in 5e?

Every time you reduce it to 0 HP it turns to mist. Is there some special rule about reducing it to 0 HP while in its coffin? Or do you have to use sunlight or running water?

Reduce it to zero HP and then hit it until it fails three death saves. E.g. I had one "friendly" vampire "helping" the PCs by creating vampire spawns to fight a war... anyway, his mist form got vaporized by red dragon breath. They have the same ability as a Zealot 14 to not go unconscious at 0 HP, but not the Zealot's ability to delay the effect of failing three death saves. So, they die after taking damage three times if running vanilla, or at negative [max] HP if the DM is using that rule variant.

[Asisreo1]

Reduce it to zero HP and then hit it until it fails three death saves. E.g. I had one "friendly" vampire "helping" the PCs by creating vampire spawns to fight a war... anyway, his mist form got vaporized by red dragon breath. They have the same ability as a Zealot 14 to not go unconscious at 0 HP, but not the Zealot's ability to delay the effect of failing three death saves. So, they die after taking damage three times if running vanilla, or at negative [max] HP if the DM is using that rule variant.
Negative max HP isn't actually a variant. In the RAW, your character instantly dies if they're at 0 HP and take their max HP worth of damage in one instance. Now, if you're talking about the cumulative damage equaling max-HP, that would be a houserule.

[JackPhoenix]

Reduce it to zero HP and then hit it until it fails three death saves. E.g. I had one "friendly" vampire "helping" the PCs by creating vampire spawns to fight a war... anyway, his mist form got vaporized by red dragon breath.

How did the mist form got vaporized (heh) by something it's immune to?

[MaxWilson]

Now, if you're talking about the cumulative damage equaling max-HP, that would be a houserule.

That is the variant I'm talking about, yes, instead of capping damage at 0 HP.


How did the mist form got vaporized (heh) by something it's immune to?

It wasn't immune to dragon fire.

[Tanarii]

I don't think it's cheap, but I'm not sure it's very effective either, unless you have a whole party full of PCs who hit like trucks and are nigh-unkillable even with their eyes closed.
Not to mention that "closing your eyes" is a table ruling anyway. The vampire's charm doesn't specify it, unlike some monster abilities. And there's no global rule for that (thankfully).

[MaxWilson]

Not to mention that "closing your eyes" is a table ruling anyway. The vampire's charm doesn't specify it, unlike some monster abilities. And there's no global rule for that (thankfully).

We've discussed this before (you see it as a matter of willpower, so you'd allow blindfolds but not closing your eyes). I'm just saying it doesn't really matter either way, so I don't need a strong ruling (i.e. I can do whatever seems reasonable to the current players).

[Angelalex242]

Alternatively, use the vampire like he's from another series entirely.

I bet PCs would have a rougher time trying to kill Angel (David Boreanaz) or Spike (James Marsters) than 'Random Vampire A'

[Tvtyrant]

Always fight where the vampire in mist form can seep directly into the terrain on its first movec, e.g. into a sewer drain or narrow crevasse.

Player: "What? He's running away through a 1" crack in the stone wall? That wasn't in the room description!"

GM: "You are in a crumbling catacomb and exploring by torchlight. Damn right that wasn't in the room description!"

Player: "Shenanigans!"

Seriously though, you can even have the vampire attack while there is fog, and he is essentially gone the moment he turns into mist.

In a 3.5 campaign I ran back in the day the Vampires all lived underground in rooms only accessible by pipes they had slaves install. The pipe mazes entered into side tunnels, straight up into the city and out over the harbor so the Vampires could enter and leave as they wanted and killing them took ripping the city apart.

[Asisreo1]

Also, just in case anyone was wondering about his actual castle.

That castle will be warded from The Abyss and back.

I'd have a few required rooms with Symbols of Death, Insanity, Pain, and Stunning.

Guards and Wards is a must. Forbiddance for all available creature types except undead (located in the top portion of the castle, where the vampire will be). After the party walks through a room with a powerful guardian (which the vampire himself will assist), a spell glyph of Mirage Arcane will have the party see an entirely different layout of the castle and will have them mostly get led into traps and hazards.

That's how I'd play it. True, this isn't necessarily a CR matter, but it is what I'd give a level 10+ party to make a vampire actually a threatening presence and not just another creature.

[Democratus]

Reduce it to zero HP and then hit it until it fails three death saves. E.g. I had one "friendly" vampire "helping" the PCs by creating vampire spawns to fight a war... anyway, his mist form got vaporized by red dragon breath. They have the same ability as a Zealot 14 to not go unconscious at 0 HP, but not the Zealot's ability to delay the effect of failing three death saves. So, they die after taking damage three times if running vanilla, or at negative [max] HP if the DM is using that rule variant.

Why would a vampire be making death saves?

When a monster is reduced to 0 hp, it is killed (unless a player chooses to knock it unconscious with a melee blow that reduces it to 0 hp).

[MaxWilson]

Guards and Wards is a must. Forbiddance for all available creature types except undead (located in the top portion of the castle, where the vampire will be). After the party walks through a room with a powerful guardian (which the vampire himself will assist), a spell glyph of Mirage Arcane will have the party see an entirely different layout of the castle and will have them mostly get led into traps and hazards.

A Glyph of Mirage Arcane? [checks spell] Huh. Range: "sight", not "self", so it appears to work. Very interesting. "Sight" is interesting in other ways too, such as casting it via Project Image (as long as there's line of sight) or from orbit or even another planet. It's such a strange spell.


Why would a vampire be making death saves?

Because it's at 0 HP.


When a monster is reduced to 0 hp, it is killed (unless a player chooses to knock it unconscious with a melee blow that reduces it to 0 hp).

That's not the rule. The rule is that the DM decides, and as DM that's what I decided, especially vampires clearly aren't supposed to be killed at 0 HP or they wouldn't have the ability to "transform into a cloud of mist (as in the Shapechanger trait) instead of falling unconscious, provided that it isn't in sunlight or running water", because they'd be dead instead of unconscious and the ability would be useless.

I actually grant death saving throws to all creatures, but I don't roll them usually until afterwards unless for some reason it matters which ones are dead vs. dying.

[Asisreo1]

A Glyph of Mirage Arcane? [checks spell] Huh. Range: "sight", not "self", so it appears to work. Very interesting. "Sight" is interesting in other ways too, such as casting it via Project Image (as long as there's line of sight) or from orbit or even another planet. It's such a strange spell.
If you'd need official guidance on ruling "Sight" spells, the DMG clarifies that a creature can see about 2 miles on a clear day and 40 miles from an elevated position.

Still absurdly long range but a bit more manageable for the DM to rule.