RPG's where shapeshifting is worthwhile

[Sloanzilla]

It seems like there are two strikes against shapeshifting in most RPG's - Baldur's Gate, NWN 2, Kingmaker, etc.

One is that they seldom can account for utility use - you can't turn into a hawk to scout or a dire rate to sneak down a tunnel. Or when you can, it is a one time use.

The other issue is that the bonus from shapeshifting seldom accounts for the arms race of video games (as opposed to in a pen and paper game). The bonus from being a bear fits well with the pen and paper game, but they don't usually scale well enough in a video game where there are much better items, and where monsters tend to have much higher stats than they do in pen and paper.

What's interesting in Pathfinder Kingmaker is that the animal companions kick major butt.

What could future RPG's do to "get shapeshifting right" or which ones already do it well, in your opinion?

[factotum]

Weirdly, I'm going to offer the example of the Druid class in World of Warcraft here. It's been a long, long time since I've played the game, but the whole idea of the class was that you could shapeshift into various forms, and each form would basically be a slightly less powerful version of another class--so a Bear druid was the equivalent of a warrior, the Cat one was a Rogue, and the Nightkin was the magic-using version. Now, while shapeshifted the Druid was not as powerful as a full-blown example of one of those classes, but could do pretty well. While *not* shapeshifted, the Druid was largely useless, so they really had to shift to make the most of what they were doing. They also had the scouting thing covered by being able to shift into "travel form" for extra speed. Note this may well not be how the class works now, I'm talking the first couple of years the game was out here.

A way to definitely *not* do it is the way lycanthropy works in Daggerfall, because there is pretty much no downside to it. You get all the stat benefits of being a were-creature while in human form. You're forced to change into were-form on a full moon, but you can just sleep for 24 hours to avoid that; you have to kill an "innocent" once a month or else suffer penalties, but you can shift into were-form in a city and kill someone and literally *no-one* will link the ravaging beast to the human who was hanging around a moment before, so you suffer no penalties for that either. You really have to roleplay the "Oh, woe is me, I must take innocent life to survive!" thing seriously to actually care about being a werecreature in that game.

[Sloanzilla]

I think online games probably handle it just fine- since they are so focused on balance almost to a fault. Shifting to a bear as a druid and using "Fighter Ability Goes Here" will usually wind up being about equally powerful. I didn't think the Skyrim shifting tree was terrible, however.

I'd love to see some way to replicate the utility element of shifting that is so very important in pen and paper gaming. Flight is obviously often a challenge.

[Zombimode]

What could future RPG's do to "get shapeshifting right" or which ones already do it well, in your opinion?

Hm, lets see:


NWN - Druid/Shifter are very viable and fun to play
Gothic 1&2 - shapeshifting is available for all characters in form of consumeable and has some very useful forms (both combat and utility), although its not meant to be the focus of a character build
Pillars of Etenity - the Druids Spiritshift ability, while limited, IS a very useful ability. It also helps to differentiate Druides from other spellcasters.


hm.. there may be others, but it DOES seem like this family of abilities is not the most supported one.

[Cespenar]

Unless the CRPG in question has a proper exploration pillar, I can't see shapeshifting becoming anything else than a "do damage but with strawberry flavor" gimmick.

So, Bioware style RPGs would be out, other than something of Divinity: Original Sin's vein perhaps.

In first/third person RPGs it would be far easier and impactful to implement, since movement, exploration and stealth are often key in those kinds of games.

[Triaxx]

Baldur's gate is something of a weird case. Druid Shapeshifting sucks. Horribly. Polymorph and later Shapechange? Epic and powerful. Oh I'm fighting Wizards? Pity this ooze is immune to magic. Fighters? Being an Illithid is cool because now I can just drain your low int to kill you. Woe is me for I have no HP! Now troll regen.

Dungeons and Dragons online also does a bang up job with them. Druid Shapeshifters are some of the top DPS and tanks in the game. DPS? Be a wolf and get movement speed and attack speed. Tank? Bears get massive HP pools defenses and Rage like a Barbarian that let's them be even more defensive. Caster? Fire and water elemental forms. You look humanoid but have elemental traits and your spells of the element get stronger.

[Sloanzilla]

That's actually a very good point about the oozes etc.

I'm replaying Pathfinder: Kingmaker right now and I just haven't seen a good time where I'd want to use any of the shifting powers. If you don't have a 45 AC + displacement you just don't belong on the front lines.

[factotum]

Thinking about it, has anyone here played the 1993 PC game Shadowcaster? That had an interesting take on shapeshifting. Each form you could shift into had specific advantages, but you used up mana constantly while in that form and you'd automatically change back to human if you ran out. The forms you could take were:
Human--fairly weak on attack and defence, but the only form in which mana regenerates.
Maorin--a four-armed cat that dishes out a beating and has the ability to see some stuff other forms can't, although they can't swim.
Caun--small pixie-type thing that can't fight for toffee, but has some magical abilities, fits into small spaces, and also heals rapidly.
Opsis--a D&D Beholder, basically, flying creature that uses magic for its attacks but is rather slow-moving.
Kahpa--decent fighter who can breathe underwater and is particularly effective fighting in that medium.
Ssair--Dragon, basically, very fast-moving and with great attack but a bit fragile.
Grost--giant stone man who's a tank in battle and can punch through walls.

You needed to use all these forms at one time or another to get through the entire game, but that constant mana consumption when not in human form could be a real issue, especially if you ran out in the middle of a fight.

[LibraryOgre]

The first Dragon Age makes it mandatory, but only for a short while.

Summoner 2: A Goddess Reborn makes it useful, but not required.

[Sloanzilla]

I'm a rare person who actually enjoys the Fade/Sloth Demon part of DA- because of the shapeshifting puzzle.

Don't think I ever bothered using Morrigan's shifting more than a couple times though.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm a rare person who actually enjoys the Fade/Sloth Demon part of DA- because of the shapeshifting puzzle.

Don't think I ever bothered using Morrigan's shifting more than a couple times though.

It's actually one of my favorite parts... except for the one section where it's all small sections and teleports, where I always get lost.

[danzibr]

As already mentioned, WoW. You need to spec to be good at one, but lots of fun and utility.

Breath of Fire series. Traditional RPG. Optional but it makes you OP, a whole buncha forms, a lot really cool. My single favorite.

Illusion of Gaia. Action RPG. Necessary shape changing, a few different forms. Handled well imo.

Diablo 2 Druid. 2 forms iirc, both fun.

In Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess you spend a lot of time as a wolf. I really liked wolf form... but I know a lot of people like good ol' Link.

Man, I'm drawing a blank, but surely there are good NES/Genesis/SNES-era games with fun shapeshifting.

[Rynjin]

Summoner 2: A Goddess Reborn makes it useful, but not required.

Speaking of old PS2 games, this is the central mechanic of Alter Echo.

[Eldan]

I'm trying to think of games that really do utility shapeshifting. There's not actually a lot. I'd love a sandbox game where you could turn into a bird and fly around.

Does Majora's Mask count? I guess the masks sort of shapeshift you and they have utility uses.

[GloatingSwine]

The first Dragon Age makes it mandatory, but only for a short while.


On the other hand, the shapeshifter mage specialisation was utter rubbish right from the start.

I think a problem shapeshifting often has is that it's a bolt on to a caster class and very rarely scales as well as the caster's other abilities.

[Cespenar]

I'm trying to think of games that really do utility shapeshifting. There's not actually a lot. I'd love a sandbox game where you could turn into a bird and fly around.

BethPGs could really pull it off easily, but didn't for some reason.

Maybe initially it might not have fitted in the lore or something, but it's arguable if by Skyrim they cared about the lore at all, so I can't see why not.

[GloatingSwine]

BethPGs could really pull it off easily, but didn't for some reason.

Maybe initially it might not have fitted in the lore or something, but it's arguable if by Skyrim they cared about the lore at all, so I can't see why not.

Probably because the engine can't load data fast enough to accommodate that sort of movement.

[sihnfahl]

Maybe initially it might not have fitted in the lore or something, but it's arguable if by Skyrim they cared about the lore at all, so I can't see why not.
You could fly in Morrowind - in fact, you needed to be able to, in order to reach some Telvanni locations.

The reason why wasn't lore ... it was that the enemy AI didn't know how to react to someone flying. Pull up the console in Skyrim and tcl yourself. You'll see the hilarity.

[snowblizz]

Probably because the engine can't load data fast enough to accommodate that sort of movement.

I Skyrim specifically they abuse your inability to fly to make dungeons circular. It's quite literally built into the design of all the spaces. I'd bet similar considerations exist elsewhere. WoW didn't use to have flyers because it stopped you going places. Making a sandbox worlds is tricky if there are massively different modes of movement.

[Cespenar]

I meant shapeshifting rather than flying. Flying is already pretty in-lore, as, yes, Telvanni architecture seems to hint.

Also, Morrowind kinda proves that alternate movement methods in a BethPG can be really fun.

It could be about data-loading speeds though. Or rather, it might have something to do with a chain of design decisions starting from making cities their own areas (because of loading speeds).

[sihnfahl]

WoW didn't use to have flyers because it stopped you going places.
Partially because they couldn't figure out how to bar people from flying to areas that were supposed to be secret, or intended only to be reachable via combat slog.

Once they figured that out (Outlands)...


I meant shapeshifting rather than flying.
In lore, IIRC, the only shapeshifting was thanks to Hircine, the Green Pact, or part of the Vampiric Curse. So it took Daedric-level power to make possible?


It could be about data-loading speeds though. Or rather, it might have something to do with a chain of design decisions starting from making cities their own areas (because of loading speeds).
Oh, definitely. Set speed to max and try running. You'll get loading issues.

[Eldan]

BethPGs could really pull it off easily, but didn't for some reason.

Maybe initially it might not have fitted in the lore or something, but it's arguable if by Skyrim they cared about the lore at all, so I can't see why not.

Eh, there's all manner of were-animals at the very least. If they cared about the lore, there shouldn't have been werewolves in Skyrim, but werebears. And Bosmer turn into all manner of animals, too.

[Morty]

I feel as though giving shapeshifting the versatility and depth it warrants would take a lot of resources in an RPG where it's only one of many options. Especially if it's meant to be balanced with not being a shapeshifter. That being said, I don't know how many games we've got that have shapeshifting a default ability.

[Kesnit]

The ability to take over a rat in Dishonored is very useful. (Granted, this is possessing a creature rather than becoming a creature, but you are the rat.) It gives you alternate ways to get around and gives you a brief stealth method of movement.

[Triaxx]

I actually found myself enjoying the freedom to switch between human and wolf link. Largely because somethings were either easier or just plain possible to fight in wolf mode. Human Link is useless against ghosts. Poe's, Ghost Rats. Wolf Link can't climb things so Archers are out of his reach. On the other hand you can fight Redead in human mode. But Wolf Link has the power to one-shot kill them.

[Winthur]

Druid Shapeshifting sucks. Horribly.
Vanilla Druid shapes sure (Well, hasted Brown Bear might be okay against middling enemies, 3+1 APR and 18/00 STR can be passable), kits not so much.
Avenger gets to make his own Webs and then walk on them with Sword Spider, which is really neat. Salamander is pretty okay too.
Shapeshifter is mildly underrated aside from exploits related to dispelling your own hands to wield strong weapons at massive natural APR; when that's ignored or fixed (Enhanced Editions prevent this), it's still a reasonable decoy character that has a really easy time reaching the natural AC cap (-26, or maybe even -28, don't remember if Single Weapon Style is usable with Druid paw), gets lots of damage resistances, and has Ironskins. You can bodyblock a bit once you used Insect Plague, winning the fight instantly! Riveting.
I'd say both kits add a nice little situational element to a solid utility package of the Druid.

But yes, most funsies are had with turning yourself into an Iron Golem to backstab people with.

[Psyren]

The old SNES game Demon's Crest was big on shapeshifting - you unlocked various forms that you could switch between on the fly in order to traverse obstacles, discover secrets, and gain an edge in various boss fights depending on the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent in question.

Divinity OS2 has the Polymorph school, which lets you partially shapeshift your body=to gain access to new attacks, movement modes, and utility abilities.


Weirdly, I'm going to offer the example of the Druid class in World of Warcraft here. It's been a long, long time since I've played the game, but the whole idea of the class was that you could shapeshift into various forms, and each form would basically be a slightly less powerful version of another class--so a Bear druid was the equivalent of a warrior, the Cat one was a Rogue, and the Nightkin was the magic-using version. Now, while shapeshifted the Druid was not as powerful as a full-blown example of one of those classes, but could do pretty well. While *not* shapeshifted, the Druid was largely useless, so they really had to shift to make the most of what they were doing. They also had the scouting thing covered by being able to shift into "travel form" for extra speed. Note this may well not be how the class works now, I'm talking the first couple of years the game was out here.

As it is right now, the Druid is the only true "hybrid" left in the game. Yes, other classes can do multiple roles, but druid is the only one who can be specced into one role but perform decently in another (for a little while) thanks to their "Affinity" talent row. This is best used for emergencies - e.g. tank goes down and boss is almost dead, your Guardian-Affinity Feral Druid can switch to bear form and hold aggro for a few seconds, especially if they're also talented into Heart of the Wild. Similarly, healer runs oom on a tough fight, your Restoration-Affinity Balance druid can throw out a Wild Growth on the party, follow up with some Rejuvenations, spot-heal the tank to full with a Regrowth-Swiftmend, then return to doing damage.

[Anteros]

It's mostly a balance issue. There's not much reason to play a specialist when another character can do anything as well. You have to make the all-rounders slightly worse at each role in order to balance it, but that makes it unfun to play.

[Morty]

It's mostly a balance issue. There's not much reason to play a specialist when another character can do anything as well. You have to make the all-rounders slightly worse at each role in order to balance it, but that makes it unfun to play.

This is also true. Shapeshifting is really, really powerful when used to its full creative potential. It makes it very tricky to balance.

[Amechra]

I feel as though giving shapeshifting the versatility and depth it warrants would take a lot of resources in an RPG where it's only one of many options. Especially if it's meant to be balanced with not being a shapeshifter. That being said, I don't know how many games we've got that have shapeshifting a default ability.

If we move away from RPGs, I can think of a few character action/metroidvania games where shapeshifting is your character's primary power. Shantae uses animal forms for your movement options, for example.

[Tome]

I'll second the mention of Alter Echo as an old PS2 game with plenty of shapeshifting.

There's also a Werewolf: The Apocalypse game coming out soonish - Earthblood - that will hopefully have decent shapeshifting.

[warty goblin]

I'll second the mention of Alter Echo as an old PS2 game with plenty of shapeshifting.

There's also a Werewolf: The Apocalypse game coming out soonish - Earthblood - that will hopefully have decent shapeshifting.

It's out, and it doesn't. You've got human mode for sneaking and climbing, wolf mode for sneaking more and crawling through ventilation ducts*, and big bad wolf thing for tearing dudes into confetti in some pretty OK but pretty easy third person combat.

Divinity 2 is arguably kinda built around shapeshifting, since you spend a considerable portion of the game in dragon form. You can't attack aerial targets from the ground, or ground targets as a dragon, so it's not so much a combat tool as it is an entire semi-separate game layer plus very convenient way of moving around quickly. Also you can turn enemies into ladybugs, which is certainly one way to solve the problem.

*Honestly I'd be happy if I never played another ventilation duct based game again.

[Zombimode]

Divinity 2 is arguably kinda built around shapeshifting, since you spend a considerable portion of the game in dragon form. You can't attack aerial targets from the ground, or ground targets as a dragon, so it's not so much a combat tool as it is an entire semi-separate game layer plus very convenient way of moving around quickly. Also you can turn enemies into ladybugs, which is certainly one way to solve the problem.

Hm, maybe my memory is a bit rusty but I'm rather certain that you CAN attack ground targets as a dragon - it is just that it is not convinient or even possible to take on the dragon form in every environment which forces you to go mano-a-mano with enemies on the ground.

[warty goblin]

Hm, maybe my memory is a bit rusty but I'm rather certain that you CAN attack ground targets as a dragon - it is just that it is not convinient or even possible to take on the dragon form in every environment which forces you to go mano-a-mano with enemies on the ground.

Nope, the game has enemies you can attack from the air, and enemies you can attack from the ground, and pretty much no overlap. Some of the air targets are things like AA towers on the ground, but that's as close as it gets.

Which is a little weird, but kinda works to emphasize the power of the dragon form without trivializing every single outdoors encounter. So on the ground you fight dudes, and in the air you blow up giant flying nightmares, and destroy chunks of buildings you can then land on and run around in.

[factotum]

Maybe Zombimode is thinking of Divinity: Dragon Commander? Pretty sure you could attack ground targets from the air in that.

[Psyren]

It's mostly a balance issue. There's not much reason to play a specialist when another character can do anything as well. You have to make the all-rounders slightly worse at each role in order to balance it, but that makes it unfun to play.

I like the way WoW is currently approaching this. The baseline competency of hybrid classes is not the differentiator - a balance druid and a fire mage are capable of similar damage output for example, despite one being a "pure" class and the other being a "hybrid." Where they differ is in utility, with the mage being able to do things like Time Warp the party for boss fights, hard crowd control with polymorph, immune certain mechanics with ice block, providing scaling food and drink for the healer to use between big pulls etc. Meanwhile the balance druid can off-heal, raise fallen allies during combat, off-tank by summoning treants, soft cc melee mobs with entangling roots, stealth past monsters to enable death run skips etc. They bring different abilities to the table, but because they have similar damage ceilings when played well, the group never feels like their hamstringing baseline effectiveness by choosing one over the other, and groups have more freedom in tailoring their composition to playstyle strengths and weaknesses.

With all that said, that only works when the class damage is truly balanced, which is too often not the case, though tuning does take place.

[Zombimode]

Maybe Zombimode is thinking of Divinity: Dragon Commander? Pretty sure you could attack ground targets from the air in that.

Nah, that's actually the only Divinity game that I haven't played.

I guess warty goblin is right and my memory is just faulty :smallamused:

[Giggling Ghast]

there's also a werewolf: The apocalypse game coming out soonish - earthblood - that will hopefully have decent shapeshifting.

I have some bad news. Well, not about the shapeshifting. Just everything else.

[Rynjin]

Maybe Zombimode is thinking of Divinity: Dragon Commander? Pretty sure you could attack ground targets from the air in that.

I thought this, too, until I looked it up. No, Divinity II: Ego Draconis also has you play as a dragon.

The naming scheme of this series annoys me greatly, as a side note. It's why I looked it up in the first place. Any time someone says "Divinity II" it's a crapshoot as to whether they're talking about Divinity II (the one called that), Beyond Divinity (the ACTUAL second game), or Divinity Original Sin II (which many people now refer to as Divinity II even though it's IIRC the 6th mainline game).

[warty goblin]

I thought this, too, until I looked it up. No, Divinity II: Ego Draconis also has you play as a dragon.

The naming scheme of this series annoys me greatly, as a side note. It's why I looked it up in the first place. Any time someone says "Divinity II" it's a crapshoot as to whether they're talking about Divinity II (the one called that), Beyond Divinity (the ACTUAL second game), or Divinity Original Sin II (which many people now refer to as Divinity II even though it's IIRC the 6th mainline game).

I should really have specified Ego Draconis; you are quite right that the naming scheme is strange and somewhat annoying.

On the other hand the series' complete disregard for anything resembling deep lore or hard continuity is great. I mean I think there's some sort of actual timeline from game to game, but there's absolutely no reason to care what it is. Not only does this free up the games to just let you run around their weirdly grim yet tongue in cheek fantasy worlds doing stuff, but it also liberates everybody involved from needing to care about 50,000,000 years of made up history involving orcs, unlocked one painfully dry codex entry at a time.

[Lord Raziere]

On the other hand the series' complete disregard for anything resembling deep lore or hard continuity is great. I mean I think there's some sort of actual timeline from game to game, but there's absolutely no reason to care what it is. Not only does this free up the games to just let you run around their weirdly grim yet tongue in cheek fantasy worlds doing stuff, but it also liberates everybody involved from needing to care about 50,000,000 years of made up history involving orcs, unlocked one painfully dry codex entry at a time.

That everyone who is truly interested in such things learns by going through the inevitable wiki made about the series in a much more efficient, cohesive and easier fashion.

as for rpgs where shapeshifting is worthwhile.....mmmmm..... any example I can think of has already been mentioned. generally for shapeshifting to work to its full potential, the game must be built around it. you have to program mechanics for all the forms you can take, and then come up with places where those mechanics are useful. though considering how good procedural generation has gotten, maybe we can have a shapeshifter metroidvania rogue-lite/like based on shapeshifting someday?

[Triaxx]

I can think of one I played only the demo for. Kameo on one of the Xbox platforms. You had to swap forms depending on what you needed. Human you could climb and maneuver the plant could shoot at range and the big guy could shift rocks and crack enemy skulls.

[GloatingSwine]

That everyone who is truly interested in such things learns by going through the inevitable wiki made about the series in a much more efficient, cohesive and easier fashion.

as for rpgs where shapeshifting is worthwhile.....mmmmm..... any example I can think of has already been mentioned. generally for shapeshifting to work to its full potential, the game must be built around it. you have to program mechanics for all the forms you can take, and then come up with places where those mechanics are useful. though considering how good procedural generation has gotten, maybe we can have a shapeshifter metroidvania rogue-lite/like based on shapeshifting someday?

Procedural generation and Metroidvania don't go terribly well together.

The engagement from Metroidvania is all about pushing back boundaries at the edges of the world and applying new tools to old problems as you expand your character's capabilities. It works much more strongly in the context of a fixed world. Procedural generation interferes because it means you can't curate the return to an old problem with a new tool that makes solving it much easier than it was the first time. (The room outside the Space Pirate base in Metroid Prime is a classic example, you experience the room in IIRC three different contexts with different powersets as you return to it repeatedly and it becomes progressively easier to traverse).

The only one I can think of that tried it is Sundered and that had to lean heavily on combat as you moved around the world, it never really recontextualises old environments in a satisfying way. (And it still had to fix a lot of rooms, it just fills in the corridors between them with procedural blocks full of combat).

If you want a metroidvania style game with shapeshifting, Shantae does that in some of the games.

[Lord Raziere]

Procedural generation and Metroidvania don't go terribly well together.

The engagement from Metroidvania is all about pushing back boundaries at the edges of the world and applying new tools to old problems as you expand your character's capabilities. It works much more strongly in the context of a fixed world. Procedural generation interferes because it means you can't curate the return to an old problem with a new tool that makes solving it much easier than it was the first time. (The room outside the Space Pirate base in Metroid Prime is a classic example, you experience the room in IIRC three different contexts with different powersets as you return to it repeatedly and it becomes progressively easier to traverse).

The only one I can think of that tried it is Sundered and that had to lean heavily on combat as you moved around the world, it never really recontextualises old environments in a satisfying way. (And it still had to fix a lot of rooms, it just fills in the corridors between them with procedural blocks full of combat).

If you want a metroidvania style game with shapeshifting, Shantae does that in some of the games.

There are indie games already that disagree with you because they are basically side-scrolling metroidvanias that offer power-ups and randomized areas like a rogue-like. can't name them but they are there. perhaps I'm simply misapplying the metroidvania term, but whatever.

Yes, Shantae has already been mentioned in this thread and I have played those. which is why I didn't bother mentioning it myself.

[GloatingSwine]

There are indie games already that disagree with you because they are basically side-scrolling metroidvanias that offer power-ups and randomized areas like a rogue-like. can't name them but they are there. perhaps I'm simply misapplying the metroidvania term, but whatever.

Possibly.

Remember that what makes a Metroidvania a Metroidvania is that it has a sprawling environment which the player is expected to cross many parts of multiple times and which the edges of gradually unlock as the capabilities of the character increase. Metroidvania games are about a series of cunningly disguised locked doors and keys to open them, often in the form of new ways the character can move.

Procedural generation actively fights against the core engagement of Metroidvanias, which is learning and becoming familiar with the game environment and gradually applying new tools to that environment to both expand its edges (unlocking new areas with new moves) and change the context of the core (using new tools to bypass old challenges faster than before). If the game's environment isn't consistent then you don't get to feel the changed context from having the double jump that lets you bypass that whole ball maze, for instance, or the grapple beam that swings right over a formerly tricky bit of platforming.

I'm not saying there aren't any, but there aren't any I know of that are recognised as good at being Metroidvanias. (Sundered, the one I pointed out, isn't terribly good at feeling like your moveset applies to the procedural bits, it's hard to procedurally generate the sort of movement ability puzzles that good Metroidvanias thrive on, which is why it fills them with combat spam).

There are games that use similar presentation to Metroidvanias like Rogue Legacy or Dead Cells, but they aren't really Metroidvanias because they are more linear progressions where you tend to start the game with the entire movement ability set of the character and only your ability to approach combat changes.

[Amechra]

The thing is, you can build those kinds of puzzles procedurally... it's just that it's kinda hard, and no one has really sat down and made that the dedicated focus of their project.

[enderlord99]

The thing is, you can build those kinds of puzzles procedurally... it's just that it's kinda hard, and no one has really sat down and made that the dedicated focus of their project.

Procedural generation + puzzles based on "cleverly disguised locked doors" ≈ The Logic in Zelda randomizers and similar places.

I'm sure it's possible to build something like that from the ground up (instead of as a modification for an existing game) and/or amp up the procgen to include the terrain. I don't know of any existing examples, though.

[Cespenar]

Spelunky is a cool, if rare, example of procedurally generated map and movement based challenges. The procedures in the game theoretically make it so that there is always one undivided way from a level's start to its end, but the combination of time limit, random hazards and moving enemies often make it so that you have to craft your own path through the map.

Further into the game, you have more bombs/ropes/items in your inventory to bypass those challenges any way you like it, so it sort of has an open-ended twist on the metroidvania mechanic (but not quite).

[Amechra]

Procedural generation + puzzles based on "cleverly disguised locked doors" ≈ The Logic in Zelda randomizers and similar places.

I'm sure it's possible to build something like that from the ground up (instead of as a modification for an existing game) and/or amp up the procgen to include the terrain. I don't know of any existing examples, though.

I've seen some papers and theory about it, but most actual attempts that I've seen to implement those ideas as a game have been mediocre at best. I think part of that is that purposefully-designed games have a higher "density" of design to them. For example, most good Metroidvania areas "loop" — new abilities don't just open new areas, they also build more connections within the areas you've already visited. Most procedural generation techniques I've seen don't really do that — granted, the current state of the art for procgen seems to be focused more on making short "runs" for roguelite games.

I think that, for procgen techniques to really come into their own, someone needs to apply procedural generation to a completely different genre. I'm talking something like a procgen dating sim or the like, where the developers are forced to innovate.

[snowblizz]

I think that, for procgen techniques to really come into their own, someone needs to apply procedural generation to a completely different genre. I'm talking something like a procgen dating sim or the like, where the developers are forced to innovate.

For something completely different I keep thinking I have to check out ARK Survival Evolved introduced procedurally generated gameworlds. It's FPS RPG-like exploration/survival game. And MMO if one feels like. The interesting part to me here is I remember the designer made actual gamemap had plenty of defects they had to keep sort out.

[Amechra]

For something completely different I keep thinking I have to check out ARK Survival Evolved introduced procedurally generated gameworlds. It's FPS RPG-like exploration/survival game. And MMO if one feels like. The interesting part to me here is I remember the designer made actual gamemap had plenty of defects they had to keep sort out.

I don't think that's "completely different" — using procgen to make gameworlds is the traditional way to use that tech.

[Eldan]

Yeah, I seem to remember Bethesda, for example, talking about that pretty early. As far back as Oblivion, probably? Where a lot of the landscape between cities was procedurally generated and features placed after that. Meaning terrain shape, rocks, trees and so on. Then they put in ruins and villages and so on later.

[snowblizz]

Yeah, I seem to remember Bethesda, for example, talking about that pretty early. As far back as Oblivion, probably? Where a lot of the landscape between cities was procedurally generated and features placed after that. Meaning terrain shape, rocks, trees and so on. Then they put in ruins and villages and so on later.

I would not call that procedurally generated though.

[Zombimode]

Yeah, I seem to remember Bethesda, for example, talking about that pretty early. As far back as Oblivion, probably? Where a lot of the landscape between cities was procedurally generated and features placed after that. Meaning terrain shape, rocks, trees and so on. Then they put in ruins and villages and so on later.

Well, and it shows if you compare it to "handcrafted" gameworlds like in the Gothic/Risen games.

[Amechra]

I mean, according to the Guinness Book of World Records, the first example of a procedurally generated world was back in 1984. Even if you wanted to be ultra specific and only look at 3D games that involve you running around and fighting things... there was this little game back in 2011 called Minecraft. I'm going to bet you've heard of it?

In all seriousness, though, "generate a 3D world and fill it with stuff" is something that's only impressive by degree at this point. I'm only familiar with a few projects (Dwarf Fortress and Ultima Ratio Regum come to mind) where the creator tried to procgen a history for their world, and a few proof-of-concept adventure games with procgen puzzles.

[LibraryOgre]

I mean, according to the Guinness Book of World Records, the first example of a procedurally generated world was back in 1984. Even if you wanted to be ultra specific and only look at 3D games that involve you running around and fighting things... there was this little game back in 2011 called Minecraft. I'm going to bet you've heard of it?


Most of the random dungeons in Daggerfall were put together from a random assortment of parts... adventure long enough, and you'd see the different pieces put together in all sorts of ways. Don't know if that's "procedurally generated", but it was hella frustrating (until I made a config change that limited it to far fewer cells per dungeon)

[Morty]

Most of the random dungeons in Daggerfall were put together from a random assortment of parts... adventure long enough, and you'd see the different pieces put together in all sorts of ways. Don't know if that's "procedurally generated", but it was hella frustrating (until I made a config change that limited it to far fewer cells per dungeon)

Quite a few of my Daggerfall characters would have been lost in dungeons forever if not for the exploit that teleports you to the exit instantly.

[LibraryOgre]

Quite a few of my Daggerfall characters would have been lost in dungeons forever if not for the exploit that teleports you to the exit instantly.

The recall spell?

[factotum]

The recall spell?

IIRC the anchor point for that spell gets deleted when you teleport back to it, though, so you have to remember to use it on entering every dungeon--and it's a pretty mana-heavy spell.

[Martin Greywolf]

My picks in oreder of good shifting from worst to best would be:

Dragon Age 1 - a bit of a tentative one, shapeshift mage could be pretty cool, but not all that great

Warframe - okay, not really, but if you're looking for inspiration on how to do it... Equinox and Titania shift, and you can jump into archwing and necramech in some maps, not a bad way to think about how to make shapeshifters work

Dungeons of Dreadmor - I mean, it's not visually impressive, but nothing is in this game, you can go full Werediggle if you want

Dishonored - it's technically mind control, but it does have the scouting aspect of turning into a rat, plus you can shapeshift into a guard Metamorphmagus style, so I'm counting it

Baldur's Gate 2 - sure, druid shifting was awful, but werewolf and Shapechange worked pretty well

Gothic series - from one to three, shapeshifting can be disgustingly powerful if you manage to snag a shadowbeast scroll, not that much utility in it, but it was unmatched in combat early game

Jade Empire - my top pick, the forms you shapeshifted into had an entire fighting style based around them and you could switch mid-fight

[LibraryOgre]

While not terribly integral to the plot (you could do the entire quest without doing it, and the Companion quest line only doing it once), Skyrim has a really FUN shapeshifting in the werewolf, once you learn the limitations of it. I can spend an enjoyable evening just running through bandits and Forsworn, eating hearts and leaving destruction in my wake.

[Morty]

Jade Empire - my top pick, the forms you shapeshifted into had an entire fighting style based around them and you could switch mid-fight

On top of that some of them were really powerful and, notably, allowed you to steamroll a mid-game major boss due to bypassing his unique mechanics.

[Triaxx]

I find my Thief type characters in Skyrim often going werewolf, just because they're not the best at stand up combat and being able to turn into a giant wolf thing and either claw my way out or use the super quick sprinting to escape is awesome. Oddly enough the Vamp form feels worse for the job though it's actually a stronger form.

[Spriteless]

I guess you don't mean Ditto in Pokemon? She's pretty worthwhile for trainers but you have to adapt your strategy.

Well, in other genres there is Axl in MMX7 & MMX8, and main character in MMZX2.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Somebody else might have mentioned it already, but Divinity: Original Sin II handles both the utility and combat sides of shapeshifting pretty well. You can use the Mask of the Shapeshifter item (I think I've got that name right) to turn into the various races, benefiting from both that race's unique talent (firebreathing, eating flesh, etc.) and also from how the people you're talking to perceive that race.

In combat, the Metamorphasis skills are fantastically helpful, from mobility options like Bull Rush and Flight to debuffs like slinging webs and turning your head into Medusa's. Admittedly, this is more partial shapeshifting than actually turning into anything (though you can turn enemies into chickens, or yourself for that matter).