Just how good is aberrant mind from Tasha?

[Alaize-chan]

Hey there I just read this new bloodline and it looks Hella amazing by flavor alone but I'm not sure how mechanically good it can be.

So I'd like to hear your opinion about, I usually go dragon for blasting but AM looks more like a hold, charm, dominate and so on specialist

[Merudo]

I'd like to know as well.

I'm especially curious what kind of spell list could be built using the 2 extra divination/enchantment spells per spell level.

[heavyfuel]

Very. extracharacters

[stoutstien]

Haven't seen one in play yet but it looks like it can easily be the controller and mental manipulator counterpart to the DS buffing/summoner.

[borg286]

My Renaissance man build in my signature showcases what the expanded spell list enables. If you want to blast, just swap out careful and Hypnotic Pattern for Quicken and Fireball. While he won't get the +Cha to damage, you'll be hard pressed to find something he doesn't do well. This is thanks to Aberrant Mind's extra spell known.

[Keravath]

The psionic spells feature is very good.

You get 10 extra spells and a cantrip on top of the usual sorcerer spells known. This is very useful. You also get at will two way telepathy with one person at the cost of a bonus action. Which is thematic, cool and useful for keeping in touch with the party scout or communicating across crowded rooms.

The base psionic spell list is pretty good though there is a focus on tentacle spells like Arms of Hadar, Evard's tentacles and the flavor of Hunger of Hadar that may not fit the flavor of the character you are building - but these can be swapped out.

Swaps have to be sorcerer/warlock/wizard divination or enchantment spells of the same level. The second level spells have a number of good options - Hold Person, Suggestion maybe Mind Spike depending on the theme you are going for - 3rd level has Enemies Abound - 5th level Modify Memory

One key feature is that all the psionic spells can be cast using sorcery points directly and do not need any components (except material ones that are consumed). This means that these spells can be cast without it being noticed that they were cast AND without anyone knowing who the caster might be. This also prevents them from being counter spelled. In addition, a number of them can be twinned.

An Aberrent Mind sorcerer might be able to really disrupt a social situation by using sorcery points to cast Enemies Abound combined with twin on a couple of leaders or opposing groups at a meeting - or cast it on the leaders of the opposing side in a combat encounter.

In addition, none of these spells take away from the regular sorcerer spells that the class gets.

[Alaize-chan]

Wow, that sounds incredibly powerful! And with high cha it can also be pretty charming and play face.

Also, the tentacles are just fine I'd like a Lovecraftian flavor *wink*

[MrStabby]

It. Is. Awesome.

Sorcerer is already pretty powerful, only held in check by lack of spells known. Aberrant mind both gives more spells but also access to spells it otherwise wouldnt have.

At level 6 it kind of gets a free metamagic and an efficient way to keep casting.

If you are playing beyond level 14 or so, I would stick with the wizard, if you want power but in the first half of the game this option is very, very powerful.

[Alaize-chan]

If you are playing beyond level 14 or so, I would stick with the wizard, if you want power but in the first half of the game this option is very, very powerful.

Good to know as most of the games I has been end at level 10 or so and I often feel that the wizard is very lacking at levels 1-2

[MaxWilson]

I'd like to know as well.

I'm especially curious what kind of spell list could be built using the 2 extra divination/enchantment spells per spell level.

Some of the built-in non-div/ench spells are good enough that I'd want to keep them: Telekinesis, Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration.

I don't play Tasha's, but if I did, what I'd probably go for on an Aberrant Mind is:

1. Tasha's Hideous Laughter (basic combat spell, cheap in sorcery points), Sleep (because no-concentration and because certain intrigues become easier if you can avoid killing anyone while executing them)
2. Suggestion (no-components + Telepathy = influence which is hard if not impossible to detect), Detect Thoughts (again, useful because no components = hard to detect)
3. Clairvoyance (recon, cheap in sorcery points), Enemies Abound (Int save, good range, fairly strong effect especially vs. powerful monsters, also prevents enemies from focusing fire)
4. Summon Aberration (meat shield), Evard's Black Tentacles (good AoE)
5. Telekinesis (strong single-target disable)

This gives me a good selection of intrigue abilities (Suggestion, Detect Thoughts), cheap abilities for weak groups of foes (Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Sleep), AoE for strong groups of weak foes (Evard's), single-target disable for strong solo monsters (Telekinesis), divide-and-conquer for strong groups of strong foes (Enemies Abound)... oh yeah, and the whole rest of my sorcerer spell list to fill in gaps with standard sorcerer stuff (Counterspell, Levitate, Fireball, Shield, Animate Objects, Expeditious Retreat, etc.).

I wish I could fit in Tasha's Mind Whip there because it upcasts well and is spammable, and Psionic Sorcery rewards spammable abilities with even more spam, but spamming Mind Sliver instead is not bad and will make other spellcasters happy.

[Kane0]

Bonus spells: For all of tier 1 and tier 2 you have double the spells known as other sorcerers. You can swap out these spells for other divination or enchantment spells including from two other class lists. Some of the default spells are pretty damn good as-is even before being able to swap for whatever you like from two schools, one of which has some very nice options.

Level 1: Telepathy
Very similar to the GoOlock’s telepathy, just with a few more restrictions. Still very handy, being able to speak silently to someone within 2-6 miles as long as you share a language.

Level 6: Psionic Sorcery
You can use sorcery points as spell points for your psionic spells (which as above is half of them up until level 11), with cost equal to spell level. This is extremely flexible and efficient, substantially extending your casting longevity.
On top of this when you do so you get subtle metamagic layered on top for free, plus removing non-cost material components to boot.
Remember how excited people got when Shadow Sorc’s hound operated as a faux heightened spell? Draw compoarisons here

Also level 6: Psychic defenses
This is also similar to the GoOlock, which isnt really surprising considering they share flavor. Anyways passive resistance to a rare damage type and advantage against charm and fear saves. Other sorc subclasses might charge you some SP for this but it’s always there for you, unless you’re an elf then a good chunk of this is covered racially.

Level 14: Revelation in Flesh
Bonus action spend some SP to choose from a list of 4 buffs, three of which directly mimic spells but arent which means you can still cast a real action spell, lasting ten minutes and doesnt use your concentration. Flexible, efficient, powerful.
Remember how draconic and divine sorcs get wings at this stage and that’s a big deal? Draw compasions here.

Level 18: Warping Implosion
Action to teleport a good distance plus anyone 30’ of the place you left makes a str save or take a bit of damage and get sucked towards the middle point, ready for a nice AoE via quicken or an ally. This is not the strongest capstone but the first use is free and its a moderate mix of utility, control and damage so it’s not worthless. Still probably better than draconic fear though.

So yeah, it’s pretty damn good. It doesnt give you much in the way of new and interesting abilities but rather focuses on making your existing toys a lot more readily usable as long as you stay within the enchantment/divination flavor.

[MaxWilson]

Level 18: Warping Implosion
Action to teleport a good distance plus anyone 30’ of the place you left makes a str save or take a bit of damage and get sucked towards the middle point, ready for a nice AoE via quicken or an ally. This is not the strongest capstone but the first use is free and its a moderate mix of utility, control and damage so it’s not worthless. Still probably better than draconic fear though.


It's also better IMO than Divine Soul's Unearthly Recovery because it's not limited per-rest. IMO only Umbral Form is clearly better, of the Sorc 18 capstones.

Poor Wild Sorc/Spell Bombardment. Only getting to add one die of damage, maybe, is just terrible.

[Alaize-chan]

Interesting, I mean, until now the shadow sorcerer was the strongest sorcerer imo but looks like I really need to play an AM and put all those extra spells to work.

[ATHATH]

I wish I could fit in Tasha's Mind Whip there because it upcasts well and is spammable, and Psionic Sorcery rewards spammable abilities with even more spam, but spamming Mind Sliver instead is not bad and will make other spellcasters happy.
Note that Psychic Sorcery might not let you get the upcast effects of the spells that you cast using sorcery points, as you're not actually spending spell slots to cast them.

I'd personally replace Tasha's Hideous Laughter in that list with Dissonant Whispers, especially if you have a Rogue in your party who can benefit greatly from the many off-turn Sneak Attack opportunities that (Twinned) Dissonant Whispers offers. Plus, at 1 sorcery point a pop, it's so cheap that you can basically spam it instead of your cantrips if you feel like it.

I'd also grab Synaptic Static as one of my 5th level spell picks. You can make Warlocks cry by casting it 9 times per day at level 9 if you wanted to, by mulching every spell slot you have for more sorcery points to cast it with. You'd have to space out your mulchings to avoid hitting your sorcery point cap (but doing so is a bonus action anyway, so :shrug:), and it'd probably be more efficient to use your 3rd and 4th level slots on Fireball and save your 1st level slots for things like Mage Armor, Shield, and/or Absorb Elements, but even if you're being conservative and are just using your starting number of sorcery points and second level spell slots for this, that's still three extra 5th level spell castings per day at level 9.

The incredible versatility (and extra spell power per long rest) that Psychic Sorcery's 1:1 sorcery point->spell conversion rate offers seems to be really overlooked compared to its pseudo-Still Spell feature.

[ATHATH]

It. Is. Awesome.

Sorcerer is already pretty powerful, only held in check by lack of spells known. Aberrant mind both gives more spells but also access to spells it otherwise wouldnt have.

At level 6 it kind of gets a free metamagic and an efficient way to keep casting.

If you are playing beyond level 14 or so, I would stick with the wizard, if you want power but in the first half of the game this option is very, very powerful.
I'd take the opposite perspective- the subclass really kicks off at level 6 when you get Psionic Sorcery, after which it still remains useful even into Tier 3 and Tier 4 by freeing up more lower-level known spell picks to be swapped out for higher-level spell picks (which is important, as the Sorcerer's known spell progression REALLY slows down in Tier 3 and Tier 4). Heck, even before level 6, it still has way more spells known than other Sorcerers and can do normal Tier 1 caster things like spamming Sleep.

[MaxWilson]

I'd take the opposite perspective- the subclass really kicks off at level 6 when you get Psionic Sorcery, after which it still remains useful even into Tier 3 and Tier 4 by freeing up more lower-level known spell picks to be swapped out for higher-level spell picks (which is important, as the Sorcerer's known spell progression REALLY slows down in Tier 3 and Tier 4). Heck, even before level 6, it still has way more spells known than other Sorcerers and can do normal Tier 1 caster things like spamming Sleep.

I think the argument here would be something like "Aberrant Mind goes from 20 mph at level 6 to 100 mph at level 14, but wizard goes from 18 mph at level 6 to 200 mph at level 14."

Of course, that assessment rests almost entirely on a single broken spell (Simulacrum), and IMO is exactly why RAW Simulacrum should be banned. A single spell shouldn't have that much impact. Eliminate Simulacrum from the game and high-level wizards and sorcerers become roughly comparable (they both have Wish).

[Merudo]

Some of the built-in non-div/ench spells are good enough that I'd want to keep them: Telekinesis, Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration.

I don't play Tasha's, but if I did, what I'd probably go for on an Aberrant Mind is:

1. Tasha's Hideous Laughter (basic combat spell, cheap in sorcery points), Sleep (because no-concentration and because certain intrigues become easier if you can avoid killing anyone while executing them)
2. Suggestion (no-components + Telepathy = influence which is hard if not impossible to detect), Detect Thoughts (again, useful because no components = hard to detect)
3. Clairvoyance (recon, cheap in sorcery points), Enemies Abound (Int save, good range, fairly strong effect especially vs. powerful monsters, also prevents enemies from focusing fire)
4. Summon Aberration (meat shield), Evard's Black Tentacles (good AoE)
5. Telekinesis (strong single-target disable)

This gives me a good selection of intrigue abilities (Suggestion, Detect Thoughts), cheap abilities for weak groups of foes (Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Sleep), AoE for strong groups of weak foes (Evard's), single-target disable for strong solo monsters (Telekinesis), divide-and-conquer for strong groups of strong foes (Enemies Abound)... oh yeah, and the whole rest of my sorcerer spell list to fill in gaps with standard sorcerer stuff (Counterspell, Levitate, Fireball, Shield, Animate Objects, Expeditious Retreat, etc.).

I wish I could fit in Tasha's Mind Whip there because it upcasts well and is spammable, and Psionic Sorcery rewards spammable abilities with even more spam, but spamming Mind Sliver instead is not bad and will make other spellcasters happy.

Level 1 has some wonderful picks (Dissonant Whispers, Sleep, Hex, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter). Level 2 has Suggestion, Level 5 has Synaptic Static.

I find the rest of the options... underwhelming, and widely circumstantial.

Detect Thoughts is good when interacting with suspicious NPCs in social campaigns - and not for much else. The 1 minute duration is so short, the slot is essentially wasted if you don't anything useful out of the reading.

Clairvoyance seems rather expensive, for what it does. Is knowing what's on the other side of the door worth a level 3 slot (or even 3 sorcery points)? Usually not.

Enemies Abound is typically a less effective Fear or Hypnotic Pattern. With only 1 target, the spell might do nothing, or even backfire.

Evard's Black Tentacles is a less effective Web with some minor damage added. I don't quite understand the interest in it.

Telekinesis, I don't quite see how it is a strong single-target disable? You have to spend your concentration, your action every round, and you have to win a contest every round or it has no effect.

[Kane0]

You also have crown of madness, mind spike, catnap, Hold Person, Charm Monster, Dominate Person plus a few decent utility spells that you now have room for thanks to the increase in spells known

[Merudo]

You also have crown of madness, mind spike, catnap, Hold Person, Charm Monster, Dominate Person

All of them are unfortunately quite mediocre.

[Kane0]

Maybe so, but they’re both free and cheap to cast as of level 6

Edit: oh i forgot arcane eye and see invisibility. Did we mention scrying?

Edit edit: Also Summon Aberration is notable, especially since sorcs dont get any of the Tashas summons

[MrStabby]

Level 1 has some wonderful picks (Dissonant Whispers, Sleep, Hex, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter). Level 2 has Suggestion, Level 5 has Synaptic Static.

I find the rest of the options... underwhelming, and widely circumstantial.

Detect Thoughts is good when interacting with suspicious NPCs in social campaigns - and not for much else. The 1 minute duration is so short, the slot is essentially wasted if you don't anything useful out of the reading.

Clairvoyance seems rather expensive, for what it does. Is knowing what's on the other side of the door worth a level 3 slot (or even 3 sorcery points)? Usually not.

Enemies Abound is typically a less effective Fear or Hypnotic Pattern. With only 1 target, the spell might do nothing, or even backfire.

Evard's Black Tentacles is a less effective Web with some minor damage added. I don't quite understand the interest in it.

Telekinesis, I don't quite see how it is a strong single-target disable? You have to spend your concentration, your action every round, and you have to win a contest every round or it has no effect.

Telekinesis is ok... mainly because it isn't a save so it sidesteps magic resitance, legendary saves etc.. It lasts 10 minutes, which is longer than most spells and you can move enemies up into the air and drop them. Also, you can switch targets which is quite nice. Bear in mind that the target is also restrained not just grappled so all attacks against them will be made with advantage. I know some players also neglet the object interaction element here but its also pretty good - the ability to pull enemies weapons out of their grips or steal magic items or whatever is just great.

It is possible that this last bit is what is referenced. If the target does not have an effective backup wepon (such as if you stole a magic sword) then you have limited them for the rest of the fight by taking that away from them.

[Alaize-chan]

All good and valid points but I don't think we should compare AM with wizards but rather others sorcerers like shadow and divine soul.

As I understand it AM is really powerful yet I honestly would play it for the Lovecraftian flavor rather than its mechanics, even so I think that it is about as powerful as shadow sorcerer.

[MrStabby]

All good and valid points but I don't think we should compare AM with wizards but rather others sorcerers like shadow and divine soul.

As I understand it AM is really powerful yet I honestly would play it for the Lovecraftian flavor rather than its mechanics, even so I think that it is about as powerful as shadow sorcerer.

What to compare it to depends on why you are comparing it.

If you know you want to play a charisma based caster then compare it with bards, warlocks and other sorcerers. If you want to play a sorcerer because you like the sorcerer spell list then wizard is also a good point of comparison as you get access to almost all the same spells.

[MaxWilson]

All good and valid points but I don't think we should compare AM with wizards but rather others sorcerers like shadow and divine soul.

As I understand it AM is really powerful yet I honestly would play it for the Lovecraftian flavor rather than its mechanics, even so I think that it is about as powerful as shadow sorcerer.

Ideally I'd want ALL sorcerers including Shadow Sorcerer to be this flavorful. In this case I think Tasha's actually did the right thing, as in, giving those spell lists to the sorcs and letting them acquire wizard/warlock spells freely from certain schools is absolutely the right call. I don't play with Tasha's but I would allow both the Clockwork Soul and the Aberrant Mind as written, and furthermore I'd offer domain spells and some means of alt-spell-acquisition to all of the existing sorcerers as well. E.g. Shadow Sorc could get darkness-themed spells like Shadow of Moil and Darkvision, while also getting to swap those domain spells out for wizard/warlock/sorc Necromancy spells (just one school in this case, unless I think of another school that's very appropriate). Divine Soul can get domain spells (it already has an alternate means of spell acquisition but this frees up some spells known). Wild Sorc can get randomly rolled spells (different for each PC) from the entire wizard/warlock list, plus access to two randomly-rolled schools. Etc.

[Garimeth]

Ideally I'd want ALL sorcerers including Shadow Sorcerer to be this flavorful. In this case I think Tasha's actually did the right thing, as in, giving those spell lists to the sorcs and letting them acquire wizard/warlock spells freely from certain schools is absolutely the right call. I don't play with Tasha's but I would allow both the Clockwork Soul and the Aberrant Mind as written, and furthermore I'd offer domain spells and some means of alt-spell-acquisition to all of the existing sorcerers as well. E.g. Shadow Sorc could get darkness-themed spells like Shadow of Moil and Darkvision, while also getting to swap those domain spells out for wizard/warlock/sorc Necromancy spells (just one school in this case, unless I think of another school that's very appropriate). Divine Soul can get domain spells (it already has an alternate means of spell acquisition but this frees up some spells known). Wild Sorc can get randomly rolled spells (different for each PC) from the entire wizard/warlock list, plus access to two randomly-rolled schools. Etc.

Seconded. I let the Storm Sorc in my game get the Tempest Cleric spell list.

[Gyor]

Interesting, I mean, until now the shadow sorcerer was the strongest sorcerer imo but looks like I really need to play an AM and put all those extra spells to work.
AM and CW Sorcerers win on versatility, but Shadow Sorcerer will still kill either one of them. And Divine Soul is hard to compare to other Sorcerers because its potential spell list is so different. Casting Conjure Celestial for example to summon a Coualt (which has 22 spells of its own, 3 of which it can cast at will, shaping shifting into any CR4 or lower animal or human and gain its abilities except for class abilities, True Sight, Telepathy, can read all languages, flies, constrict, can poison, eat...) is something other Sorcerers can't do till they get wish.

[Kane0]

AM and CW Sorcerers win on versatility, but Shadow Sorcerer will still kill either one of them.

PvP is a poor metric.

[Gyor]

PvP is a poor metric.

In practice yes, but it's good enough to say that at least Shadow Sorcerer is still a good subclass worth taking post Tasha, but yeah it along with the other pre Tasha's Sorcerer subclasses should be updated with spell lists.

[MaxWilson]

AM and CW Sorcerers win on versatility, but Shadow Sorcerer will still kill either one of them. And Divine Soul is hard to compare to other Sorcerers because its potential spell list is so different. Casting Conjure Celestial for example to summon a Coualt (which has 22 spells of its own, 3 of which it can cast at will, shaping shifting into any CR4 or lower animal or human and gain its abilities except for class abilities, True Sight, Telepathy, can read all languages, flies, constrict, can poison, eat...) is something other Sorcerers can't do till they get wish.

And even then, the Divine Soul is the only one who can then Wish (Planar Binding) on that Couatl.

[Snails]

Bonus spells: For all of tier 1 and tier 2 you have double the spells known as other sorcerers. You can swap out these spells for other divination or enchantment spells including from two other class lists. Some of the default spells are pretty damn good as-is even before being able to swap for whatever you like from two schools, one of which has some very nice options.

The default spell selection is pretty decent as is. Obviously, some swapping brings improvement, but at least you easily have a broad enough selection of spells without a lot of careful planning.



Tangent:
I now have a definitive answer to the perennial forum question: "Should we get rid of the Sorcerer class or the Warlock class?"

The answer is: Remove the Wizard class, and replace it with a few Sorcerer subclasses like Aberrant Mind.

By having a good selection of divination and enchantment spells, on top of the known spells of the base Sorcerer class, we are landing halfway between a Wizard and a Sorcerer. Thus we do not need a Wizard at all. How to replace a School of Evocation Wizard with a Sorcerer blaster sub-class, for example, is obvious.

[MaxWilson]

By having a good selection of divination and enchantment spells, on top of the known spells of the base Sorcerer class, we are landing halfway between a Wizard and a Sorcerer. Thus we do not need a Wizard at all.

That does not compute.

[LudicSavant]

Hey there I just read this new bloodline and it looks Hella amazing by flavor alone but I'm not sure how mechanically good it can be.

So I'd like to hear your opinion about, I usually go dragon for blasting but AM looks more like a hold, charm, dominate and so on specialist

AM isn't bad even if you just want to focus on blasting.

Oh sure, +5 damage on a fireball certainly helps your blasting, but so does having the right spell for the situation (as a result of more spells known), or being more resource-efficient (like with 5 SP Subtle Synaptic Statics, 4 SP Black Tentacles, or keeping Hex up for 1 SP so you can open with Hex Scorching Ray), or having access to summons (they upcast well and don't eat action economy), using Warping Implosion to set up damage combos, or an extra offensive cantrip that can be used to set up Quickened blast spells. You can actually afford to spend more spells known on blasting options since you can use the Aberrant list to round out your versatility, too.

[micahaphone]

I'll say this, when building a hypothetical shadow sorcerer I've agonized over every spell choice and whether to choose optimal spells or thematic spells. With the tasha origins I can fit several thematic spells along with the real bangers. MaxWilson already brought up a great list of spells to get from the origin list, you'll have another 3-5 spells to play with and choose some fun stuff.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The 'value' of a spell is partially controlled by the conditions of a campaign. Here is some additional commentary regarding the following spells:



I find the rest of the options... underwhelming, and widely circumstantial.

Detect Thoughts is good when interacting with suspicious NPCs in social campaigns - and not for much else. The 1 minute duration is so short, the slot is essentially wasted if you don't anything useful out of the reading.
Detect Thoughts also allows you to determine the presence of creatures that have an Intelligence score greater than 3 and speak at least one language, without having to see the creature.

Detect Thoughts, therefore, has a scouting application. Note that stone and metal have varying degrees of foiling the spell, but not wood. Detect Thoughts is the spell you can cast from the outside of a closed door, to determine if a creature is inside the room. It is also the spell you cast when you are fairly certain there are hidden creatures ahead.

Information gathering has differing levels of importance from campaign to campaign, but reading the thoughts of your attackers can yield critical tactical and strategic information....The order of assassins known as the Voiceless, never communicate about their assignments and rise as zombies when Speak with Dead is used on them...time for Detect Thoughts!🔮


Clairvoyance seems rather expensive, for what it does. Is knowing what's on the other side of the door worth a level 3 slot (or even 3 sorcery points)? Usually not.
Clairvoyance at one point in the past, used to have a 3 segment casting time, and unlimited range...it was a fairly quick spell to cast.

In 5e Clairvoyance has a 10 minute casting time, and the range of 1 mile, (which is a very long range for 5e spells). While Clairvoyance can be used to "bug" the room right in front of you, I don't believe that is typically the 'best' use for the spell.

Having an unseen spy at a particular spot can pay significant dividends, depending upon the campaign. Clairvoyance is a 5e 'Hacker' spell....useful to 'bug' a meeting or to serve as an unseen camera/microphone.

Clairvoyance probably could be a Ritual Spell.

An Aberrant Mind's Psionic Sorcery gives the space for the sorcerer to select the Extended Metamagic feat. Doubling the duration of a spell for the cost of a single Sorcery Point can lead to some very efficient spell casting. (This is very true for Divine Soul Sorcerers...20 minute Spirit Guardians or Shield of Faith).

[MaxWilson]

(B) Information gathering has differing levels of importance from campaign to campaign, but reading the thoughts of your attackers can yield critical tactical and strategic information....The order of assassins known as the Voiceless, never communicate about their assignments and rise as zombies when Speak with Dead is used on them...time for Detect Thoughts!🔮

(A) In 5e Clairvoyance has a 10 minute casting time, and the range of 1 mile, (which is a very long range for 5e spells). While Clairvoyance can be used to "bug" the room right in front of you, I don't believe that is typically the 'best' use for the spell.

(A) Whoa, how did I never notice that?! For years I've believed that Clairvoyance is a spell you can use to "hop around" inside an enemy base by just recasting it in a new location that you can see from your current scrying location (Clairvoyance or Scrying), but with a ten minute casting time that's illegal since you lose concentration on the first spell long before the second spell activates. I guess I'll continue to run it my way as a rule variant because frankly a 10 minute casting time makes it a much more awkward and niche spell. With that in mind my 3rd level picks would be Enemies Abound and Sending, instead of Clairvoyance.

(B) It's not just for active attackers and suspicious NPCs, it's also for your own proactive shenanigans when you're the suspicious ones, and for interrogations after you've already defeated your recent attackers and need to learn more about their origin and allies. I think this may be what you had in mind with the Voiceless but just to be clear, the scenario is something like asking a captured mook, "How many more of you are there? Are there any wizards among your number? Where do you sleep?" etc. where the mook cannot refuse to answer because you read his mind.

Except, if you can cast it subtly, then you don't need to actually capture someone to interrogate them, you can do it in broad daylight! Disguise Self as the Drow Ambassador and then walk right up** to the Fire Giant King, cast Detect Thoughts, and ask "Who is your biggest enemy? Who do you hate the most? What are you afraid of?" to gain information prior to a Combat As War shenanigan where you break into his treasure vault and pin the blame on someone else (perhaps another Fire Giant, if that's what the King already suspects might happen). The value of Detect Thoughts here is that you can ask intrusive personal questions without having to worry about whether or not the target will answer them. Even if they just grunt and turn away, you get the answer.

** Yes, it would be more complex than this. I'm not trying to trivialize the problem of pulling a heist on a Fire Giant King and pinning the blame on someone else, I'm just summarizing the aspect of the operation where subtle casting helps.

[Thunderous Mojo]

(B) It's not just for active attackers and suspicious NPCs,
Very true.
Mercudo, (in the post I was responding to), had relegated Detect Thoughts to only being useful in the 'Social Tier', so Intended to use examples that showed how the spell can apply in the other Tiers of Play.

I just rushed, and apparently did not effectively communicate.

One idea I have been musing over is having a Aberrant Mind with the Eldritch Adept Feat: Gaze of Two Minds, use a charm spell, and the invocation, and their telepathy to scout an area with a humanoid that will not draw undue attention.

If the Fire Giant King has humanoid servitors, this might be a good way to scout, and get "eyes on" vault, (or the area around the vault), without entailing much threat to one's person.

D&D heists, and 'running silent' is one of my favorite ways to play.

[ZRN]

AM isn't bad even if you just want to focus on blasting.

Oh sure, +5 damage on a fireball certainly helps your blasting, but so does having the right spell for the situation (as a result of more spells known), or being more resource-efficient (like with 5 SP Subtle Synaptic Statics, 4 SP Black Tentacles, or keeping Hex up for 1 SP so you can open with Hex Scorching Ray), or having access to summons (they upcast well and don't eat action economy), using Warping Implosion to set up damage combos, or an extra offensive cantrip that can be used to set up Quickened blast spells. You can actually afford to spend more spells known on blasting options since you can use the Aberrant list to round out your versatility, too.

I've been wondering what people thought about Improved Invisibility hijinx with an aberrant mind. The way I see it, if you subtle spell Fireball or something while invisible, observant enemies can still trace the little bead of flame back to a source, but theoretically spells like Synaptic Static and Dissonant Whispers don't (necessarily) have a visible effect so there's really no way for you to be detected if you go invisible and then just nuke the battlefield from a safe distance with those spells. Does that sound right? And psionic spells would let you do so pretty efficiently slot-wise.

[sophontteks]

I've been wondering what people thought about Improved Invisibility hijinx with an aberrant mind. The way I see it, if you subtle spell Fireball or something while invisible, observant enemies can still trace the little bead of flame back to a source, but theoretically spells like Synaptic Static and Dissonant Whispers don't (necessarily) have a visible effect so there's really no way for you to be detected if you go invisible and then just nuke the battlefield from a safe distance with those spells. Does that sound right? And psionic spells would let you do so pretty efficiently slot-wise.

Dissonate whispers has a audable cue in the description. They can hear you whisper a discordant melody. From a strict ruling the target (and only the target) would know your location then.

Otherwise, yes, that's right. My go-to is using phantasmal force to make bees attack followed up with many Nicholas Cage memes. Natural phenomena wouldn't normally be perceived as an attack, so it could prevent combat from starting while dishing out 10d6 in 1 minute.

[ZRN]

Dissonate whispers has a audable cue in the description. They can hear you whisper a discordant melody. From a strict ruling the target (and only the target) would know your location then.

From the spell description:


You whisper a discordant melody that only one creature of your choice within range can hear, wracking it with terrible pain.

So for sure nobody other than the target can detect it, and it's a fine point whether the target would be able to pinpoint you since your voice is clearly magically altered, especially if you used the subclass feature to communicate telepathically. But they DO know enough of your location to be forced to run in the opposite direction, so that's a point.

[sophontteks]

From the spell description:



So for sure nobody other than the target can detect it, and it's a fine point whether the target would be able to pinpoint you since your voice is clearly magically altered, especially if you used the subclass feature to communicate telepathically. But they DO know enough of your location to be forced to run in the opposite direction, so that's a point.
I wouldn't take for granted that you can choose to whisper telepathically. Whispering is something I'd consider different from communicating telepathically. In this case, as you noticed, the spell does depend on the target knowing where you are, and the seperate verbal rider in the description was a clever way to ensure the target knew that.