Weaken my wizard

[Weasel of Doom]

I'm playing a wizard in my 3.5e campaign and it's left me with an interesting (de-)optimisation challenge for the board. We're only low-level atm but there's a significant power gap when it comes to system mastery and I can foresee my wizard outshining the rest of the party if I'm not careful.

I want to prestige out of wizard so I can get some class features other than just the occasional bonus feat but I don't want to make the power-gap problem any worse.
Basically I'm looking for any caster prestige classes that have interesting flavour or class features but have commensurate trade-offs in caster progression or some other area so that they're power level neutral (or even better, are a step-down vs a straight wizard). Classes that you might have looked at and gone "that's cool ... but straight wizard is probably optimal".

tl;dr Suggest some wizard/caster prestige classes that fit between "wizard+" (IotSFV, incantatrix) and "you've gimped yourself" (Green Star Adept - I'm not that masochistic)

[Aracor]

What is the rest of your party?

[Troacctid]

Theurges! In particular, try eldritch theurge or noctumancer. They're really cool, but they don't see much play.

[Zaile]

In general I'd say focus on buffing/debuffing and you won't outshine everyone. If you want to nerf yourself without being useless to the group, take a bunch of crafting feats instead of caster feats and work with your DM to use PF item creation rules to make magic items for the party. I'd also suggest you take a couple "reserve" feats and casting fewer spells, but using these. They are weaker than spells, so you just need a couple spells in certain slots and then you can load up on utility spells. That way you won't outshine, but can still have the big guns in case of emergency.

I think if you avoid the "god wizard" summons & spells you should be OK. Polymorphing the fighter into a T-Rex, handing out haste candy, slowing the enemy, hold spells, etc. Being a counterspell/dispeller is an option too. Or play an evoker :smallbiggrin:

Here is a PRC tier list. Look in the "Equal" or "Down One" lists for something that tickles your fancy. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?107618-3e-Zeal-s-(in-progress)-Tier-System-for-PrCs

[Anthrowhale]

War Weaver seems good? You lose a level of spell advancement and the class features focus on buffing allies which seems like a double win from the viewpoint of not outshining folks.

[Weasel of Doom]

What is the rest of your party?
Elven factotum 1 / warblade 1 aiming for an elegant aristocratic duelist vibe
Drow monk 1 / cleric 1 aiming for sacred fist (won't be leveling up until the rest of the party is level 4 to retroactively account for LA)
Halfling rogue 2 with a focus on throwing knives, might end up going swift ambusher route
Elven generalist wizard 2 (me)
Wolf totem human barbarian 2 (when the player can make it, like every 2nd or 3rd session)


Theurges! In particular, try eldritch theurge or noctumancer. They're really cool, but they don't see much play.
That's an idea. Noctumancer could be exactly what I'm looking for. I've never played any of the ToM classes so getting to grips with the new system would keep my mind occupied and the counterspelling class features wouldn't step on anyone else's toes.


[good advice]
Yeah. I've pretty much been doing what you suggest as far as spell choices and I could just keep doing that.
I suppose the reason for this thread was more that since the campaign is panning out to be on the lower-optimisation side of the spectrum I'd take advantage of the opportunity to play a prestige class I might normally shrug off as "too weak". Thing is, I realised I just don't really know any interesting caster prestige classes that aren't IotSFV or Master Specialist or otherwise "Up One Tier".

I'm in two minds about reserve feats, on one hand they're definitely weaker than unloading a mass SoL on the enemy but they also undercut one of the few weaknesses of the wizard class (limited spell slots) and make it harder for a GM to balance the game via attrition.


War weaver
Would be perfect advice but I played one of them pretty recently. Great class though.
Funnily enough played it in a comparatively high-op game, war weaver (along with malconvoker) is one of the few PrCs that can be considered optimisation-neutral despite the loss of CL imo. Quiescent weaving is fantastic boost to your action economy. You can mass buff the party with your move action then focus on locking down the foes with BFC and debuffs.

[Yael]

War Weaver seems good? You lose a level of spell advancement and the class features focus on buffing allies which seems like a double win from the viewpoint of not outshining folks.

Theurge with a cleric so you get several spell levels down as wizard, not reaching nines (which you won't use if you don't want to outshine the party at all), but if I am counting correctly, you'll end with 16/20 wizard casting and 10/20 cleric casting, ending up with some really good battlefield buffs anyway.

[RNightstalker]

Fortune's Friend from Complete Scoundrel only progresses spellcasting 2/5 but gives a bunch of luck feats and bonuses that can be really fun.

[One Step Two]

If you want to play into the party support and magical item theme a little more, I'd like to suggest the Master Alchemist from Magic of Faerun, which over the course of 10 levels, lets you brew potions of higher and higher level spells. Combine this with the spell Quick Potion from spell Compendium, as you are now capable of brewing potions of higher than 3rd level, you can make them in as little as 1 minute. Also, combine this with the Energize potion spell from Book of Exalted deeds, to make grenades from low-level potions.

[Zaile]

Elven factotum 1 / warblade 1 aiming for an elegant aristocratic duelist vibe
Drow monk 1 / cleric 1 aiming for sacred fist (won't be leveling up until the rest of the party is level 4 to retroactively account for LA)
Halfling rogue 2 with a focus on throwing knives, might end up going swift ambusher route
Elven generalist wizard 2
Wolf totem human barbarian 2 (when the player can make it, like every 2nd or 3rd session)


That's an idea. Noctumancer could be exactly what I'm looking for. I've never played any of the ToM classes so getting to grips with the new system would keep my mind occupied and the counterspelling class features wouldn't step on anyone else's toes.


Yeah. I've pretty much been doing what you suggest as far as spell choices and I could just keep doing that.
I suppose the reason for this thread was more that since the campaign is panning out to be on the lower-optimisation side of the spectrum I'd take advantage of the opportunity to play a prestige class I might normally shrug off as "too weak". Thing is, I realised I just don't really know any interesting caster prestige classes that aren't IotSFV or Master Specialist or otherwise "Up One Tier".

I'm in two minds about reserve feats, on one hand they're definitely weaker than unloading a mass SoL on the enemy but they also undercut one of the few weaknesses of the wizard class (limited spell slots) and make it harder for a GM to balance the game via attrition.


Would be perfect advice but I played one of them pretty recently. Great class though.
Funnily enough played it in a comparatively high-op game, war weaver (along with malconvoker) is one of the few PrCs that can be considered optimisation-neutral despite the loss of CL imo. Quiescent weaving is fantastic boost to your action economy. You can mass buff the party with your move action then focus on locking down the foes with BFC and debuffs.

Considering your party, I'd stick with the buff/blast route. You have very weak ranged, but have all the other bases covered and melee is over-represented.

I'd highly recommend reserve feats with this group exactly so you don't run out of resources on mundane fights. Fiery burst, Acid splash, and Storm Bolt are all good options.

I haven't played many 3e wizards, so I can't recommend any PRCs that I've always want play, but never got to. Since you're eliminating the top-tier ones, a little research will not be wasted.

Since TOB is in play, Swordsage after 6th, then a Jade Phoenix mage would set you back a caster level, thus a slight caster gimp, but give you some flashy movement options. Not sure if this fits what you envision, but it is one of those classes I never got to play that I've wanted to.

[RNightstalker]

If you want to play into the party support and magical item theme a little more, I'd like to suggest the Master Alchemist from Magic of Faerun, which over the course of 10 levels, lets you brew potions of higher and higher level spells. Combine this with the spell Quick Potion from spell Compendium, as you are now capable of brewing potions of higher than 3rd level, you can make them in as little as 1 minute. Also, combine this with the Energize potion spell from Book of Exalted deeds, to make grenades from low-level potions.

I'm going to have to add that to me "I wanna try playing this sometime" list.

[Roninblack]

Osteomancer has always looked cool, full of flavor but I wouldn't call it optimized

[One Step Two]

I'm going to have to add that to me "I wanna try playing this sometime" list.

Additional things to make the build really sing: Rapid Spell metamagic to get Quick Potion to be cast as a full-round action instead of a minute, and asking your DM if they will allow Energize potion to scale with the level of your potions. Turning a 9th level spell potion into a 9d6 5ft burst is hardly broken after all.

If your DM is especially cool with a little homebrew, they might allow you as a master alchemist to use Energize Potion as an at-will ability of the Master Alchemist class, after all, if anyone knows how to make a potion unstable and explode, it should be you!

[rel]

Just pick **** spells.
A wizard with a poor spell selection will struggle to beat an expert in a fight. You don't have to go that far, just dial things back until you find yourself matching the table.

[Fizban]

Alienist: get Pseudonatural summons, an extra spell slot, and a few hit points, lose a bunch of wisdom.

Argent Savant: Lose a caster level, gain minor boost to damage with spells that already dealt less damage and minor boost to AC spells, end with valuable at-will dispel vs force effects.

Blood Magus: Take some "useless" feats, die, lose a couple caster levels eventually maybe, get a convenient caster level boost and un-loseable scroll storage even without cl loss (note homunculus creation normally requires a number of feats itself)

Elemental Savant: Lose a couple caster levels eventually, get sick new bod. Minor spell penetration and DC boosts make you better, without the power of free metamagic.

Frost Mage (Frostburn): Lose no caster levels, gain natural armor, cold resistance, free Piercing Cold, and a set of conjuration summons that you normally can't cast, for free, which also cut off at the 4th level version for no explained reason because heaven forbid a Sorcerer have the chance to get more than four spells known (Sand Shaper says wut?).

Mystic Theurge: your Cleric is going to be an Enlightened Fist, so you might as well bring in some more Cleric.


Mostly you just need to worry about not showing up the other wizard too much. Or the other characters via the fact that you have twice as much wizard as normal, and can share spells.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

How about going more than one level into Shaper of Form? It gets some fun abilities, after all. As long as you don't go too crazy with Polymorph abuse, it could be good!
I would also suggest Spell Sovereign, which loses 3 spellcasting levels (one early on, two more later as you get the stronger high-level spells) in exchange for a cool living spell pet.

And I would also suggest focusing on out-of-combat utility, buffing, and Reserve Feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dip Incarnate 2 for Soulcaster.
Dip Binder 1 with Improved Binding for Anima Mage.
Dip Beguiler 1 for Ultimate Magus.
Dip Ardent 2 with Practiced Manifester for Cerebremancer.
Dip Psychic Rogue 1 or Spellthief 1 for Unseen Seer.
Take Elf Paragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) 3.

[NotInventedHere]

Alienist: get Pseudonatural summons, an extra spell slot, and a few hit points, lose a bunch of wisdom.

It's probably worth noting that the worst (or 'best' from this perspective) part of the Alienist is that it's a summoning-focused prestige class that denies you all non-pseudonatural summons. Anything that doesn't have the Fiendish/Celestial template, is taken off your Summon Monster list. All the elementals, genies, angels, devils, etc., you lose all of them.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Stormcaster or Stormsinger for some highly thematic powers. 9/10 and 10/11 respectively (assuming you dip Bard 1 to qualify for Stormsinger).

I'll second Noctumancer. Also, the Creeping Darkness rules will let you trade your existing Wizard levels for Shadowcaster levels, letting you qualify for it a bit more quickly than you could a different theurge. (Each time you gain a level of Shadowcaster, you can trade a Sorcerer or Wizard level for an additional level of Shadowcaster, so it'll only take two level ups to get the 3-4 levels of Shadowcaster necessary for Noctumancer).

I feel like I'm forgetting something, but a quick stroll through the PrC Tier List has failed to jog my memory. Ah, well.

[Nifft]

Simplest side-grade might be Master Specialist. You can enter it at level 4, and stay through level 13.


For a more interesting flavor, consider Blood Mage 4 (C.Arc) -> Fleshwarper 10 (Lords of Madness)

Or just take Heal cross-class and go straight into Fleshwarper. Great flavor, fun abilities, you can make your whole party into abominations, it's just a good class to horribly twist into madness-- er, to buff your buddies. Yeah.


Wild Soul (C.Mage) is a decent class with a lot going on. Pay one caster level to get in, get some spontaneous off-list spells and nature-themed summons.


Wyrm Wizard (Dragon Magic) is ... strange. I'm not sure it's worthwhile at low-op. It does pay caster levels, so it's suitable in that regard, but ... well, just look at it.


Renegade Mastermaker (Magic of Eberron) is what Green Star Adept wishes it could have been. You pay 2 spellcasting levels and turn into a robot. It's quite tolerable.


Cataclysm Mage (Explorer's Handbook) pays one spellcasting level for a bunch of interesting features. Do note that it has a class feature which requires you to die if the d12 you roll at level-up happens to land on a 2, and that it might be strong enough to disqualify itself in spite of the spellcasting level. I've never played it myself.


Knight Phantom (Five Nations) is like Eldritch Knight, except decent. Still not as good as a cheesed-out AbCham gish, but quite decent.


Ardent Dilettante (Planar Handbook) looks like fun, and the escalating prerequisites require that you debuff yourself via multi-classing as you advance.


For a shot of nostalgia, consider Candle Caster (Tome & Blood, yes the 3.0e splatbook).

[Fizban]

Stormcaster or Stormsinger for some highly thematic powers. 9/10 and 10/11 respectively (assuming you dip Bard 1 to qualify for Stormsinger).
I also thought about recommending Stormcaster, but then I noticed it adds stun to everything for free and that sounded a lot more like an upgrade to me. Burning two feats and a level for Stormsinger though, especially if you can't reliably keep the temperature cold and the winds stormy, would be a pretty solid self-stealth-nerf.

I feel like I'm forgetting something, but a quick stroll through the PrC Tier List has failed to jog my memory. Ah, well.
I have the same weird feeling actually.

Wyrm Wizard (Dragon Magic) is ... strange. I'm not sure it's worthwhile at low-op. It does pay caster levels, so it's suitable in that regard, but ... well, just look at it.
Wyrm Wizard seems to be for when you absolutely, positively, want some weird specific spell put on your Wizard list.

For a shot of nostalgia, consider Candle Caster (Tome & Blood, yes the 3.0e splatbook).
I love Candle Caster! I was literally just in and out of Tome and Blood working on Blood Magus fix, paging past Candle Caster over and over! Why didn't I think it it?

Their entire main feature is getting metamagic feats, that they can only use on crafted consumables. That's a heck of a nerf vs taking two more aggressive metamagics- and yet, they do get a very spiffy sort of free quicken eventually, so it's still not completely passive, letting you make scrolls to initiate your spell combos.

[Troacctid]

I also thought about recommending Stormcaster, but then I noticed it adds stun to everything for free and that sounded a lot more like an upgrade to me. Burning two feats and a level for Stormsinger though, especially if you can't reliably keep the temperature cold and the winds stormy, would be a pretty solid self-stealth-nerf.
It's pretty easy to reliably keep the temperature cold as a wizard, since you have native access to control temperature.

[Fizban]

Ah, but as previously suggested, you simply don't take it.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe Arcane Hierophant? It is a Druid/wizard theurge which seems to be pretty elf friendly. For feats, maybe consider Magic of the Land? Add some healing to your buffing. Both are in races of the wild.

[Weasel of Doom]

I wanted to thank everyone who replied to this thread. Lots of great ideas and really interesting classes that I never would have found on my own.

Right now I'm leaning towards Child of Shadow, Bard+Stormsinger or Magic of the Land+Wild Soul depending on what direction I want to go with the character. They all trade a CL for a steady supply of interesting class features and that's basically what I was looking for. Bard+Stormsinger would help buff my melee heavy party's frontline.
Maybe Spell Sovereign if I want something even further from your typical wizard. I'm finding it very hard to go past the option to have a cute living spell ooze as my familiar.

I was smitten with noctumancer when it was first suggested but geeze shadow magic is bad. I know I wanted to drop my character's power level but spending three levels to get 1/day castings of Voice of Shadows or Piercing Sight would just be too painful. Even noctumancer>mystic theurge for double-9s wouldn't make up for the early game nerf.
Am I missing something or is shadow magic really that lacklustre?

[Nifft]

I was smitten with noctumancer when it was first suggested but geeze shadow magic is bad. I know I wanted to drop my character's power level but spending three levels to get 1/day castings of Voice of Shadows or Piercing Sight would just be too painful. Even noctumancer>mystic theurge for double-9s wouldn't make up for the early game nerf.
Am I missing something or is shadow magic really that lacklustre?

It really is that lackluster.

There are a few gems, but very few, and additionally the magic system is bad.

[Troacctid]

I was smitten with noctumancer when it was first suggested but geeze shadow magic is bad. I know I wanted to drop my character's power level but spending three levels to get 1/day castings of Voice of Shadows or Piercing Sight would just be too painful. Even noctumancer>mystic theurge for double-9s wouldn't make up for the early game nerf.
Am I missing something or is shadow magic really that lacklustre?
It has a tougher early game than other quadratic spellcasters do, but once it gets off the ground, there are some decent spells on its list. It's also great for counterspelling, both with the noctumancer class abilities and with warp spell. (Warp spell is awesome.)

I think noctumancer is going to do best if your campaign is starting at a higher level and you can skip the early game.

[Feldar]

War Weaver seems good? You lose a level of spell advancement and the class features focus on buffing allies which seems like a double win from the viewpoint of not outshining folks.

War Weaver definitely fits the "in the background" bit, but in terms of raw power it's phenomenal. Now, as a single action, you can essential chain five spells onto five targets (that's 25 actions if cast individually), plus if you do a bit of work you can also swift action a group buff on the same turn.

Honestly, to get that ability the class should give up two or three levels of casting progression.

[AnimeTheCat]

To me, the absolute best route for you to go is an Illusionist Focused Specialist Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Whatever you want 7.

I say illusion because it's perfect for being powerful without being too powerful. You can cast the various illusion spells specifically to channel, separate, and disrupt the enemy and enhance your party member's capabilities, you can use Color Spray to debuff the enemy (and other spells). The power scaling is really as limited or expansive as your imagination, and the ways in which you can apply it can be either directly powerful for you, or supportive and interactive for your party.

[Feldar]

To me, the absolute best route for you to go is an Illusionist Focused Specialist Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Whatever you want 7.

I say illusion because it's perfect for being powerful without being too powerful. You can cast the various illusion spells specifically to channel, separate, and disrupt the enemy and enhance your party member's capabilities, you can use Color Spray to debuff the enemy (and other spells). The power scaling is really as limited or expansive as your imagination, and the ways in which you can apply it can be either directly powerful for you, or supportive and interactive for your party.

Illusionists are awesome and can be great fun if the GM is good at adjudicating them. If you go this route have a conversation with the GM, understand what happens if a creature saves, the conditions that will prompt a save, etc.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

It has a tougher early game than other quadratic spellcasters do, but once it gets off the ground, there are some decent spells on its list. It's also great for counterspelling, both with the noctumancer class abilities and with warp spell. (Warp spell is awesome.)

I think noctumancer is going to do best if your campaign is starting at a higher level and you can skip the early game.

Yeah, shadow magic doesn't really hit its stride until level 7, at which point your uses per day double and suddenly you've got a little bit of sustain.

[rel]

To me, the absolute best route for you to go is an Illusionist Focused Specialist Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Whatever you want 7.

I say illusion because it's perfect for being powerful without being too powerful. You can cast the various illusion spells specifically to channel, separate, and disrupt the enemy and enhance your party member's capabilities, you can use Color Spray to debuff the enemy (and other spells). The power scaling is really as limited or expansive as your imagination, and the ways in which you can apply it can be either directly powerful for you, or supportive and interactive for your party.

just be sure to skip shadow conjuration / evocation

[Elkad]

Standard god-mode wizard.

Buff the party. Control the battlefield. Let them think you are just standing in the back being semi-useless.
You can play an entire campaign without ever doing a point of damage or summoning a combat monster or otherwise getting a kill on your own.

Last time I played one, I spent every feat on improving my familiar, because there was no reason to do anything else.

But a theurge is a great idea as well. Skip (most) of the early entry and just accept your missing upper-level spells in exchange for having giant piles of everything else.

[RaiKirah]

I'm a little late to the party, but this feels like a great opportunity for Squire of Legend and Mythic Exemplar, assuming you can fit the fluff into your campaign. You can lose a few or a lot of caster levels as you are inclined, and depending on your chosen patron/paragon you can pick up some very odd abilities.