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View Full Version : Optimization Fairy of Death, a new Iaijutsu Focus build



Elves
2021-03-02, 11:01 AM
Build concept: Iaijutsu shadowpouncer who does a lot of damage.

1
Stub: monk 7/totemist 2/cleric 1/shadowlord 4/warblade 1/iaijutsu master 5 (16 BAB)

ACFs: optionally, martial monk
Sub Levels: Darkmoon disciple (monk 7th), Hin disciple (monk 1st), halfling totemist
Variant Class: sidewinder monk, cloistered cleric
Race: Magic-blooded necropolitan draconic unseelie half-fey (w/LA buyoff) strongheart halfling
(if you don't want to be undead you have to find some other means of Con damage immunity, like UMDing sheltered vitality)
Without LA buyoff you have to drop draconic and half-fey, which lowers the numbers but doesn't break the build. LA buyoff is assumed for slightly more impressive numbers.

RACIAL TRAITS
Small size: +1 atk/ac, +4 hide
+1 atk with thrown, ranged
Fly 120 ft. (good)
Immune to enchantment
DR 15/cold iron
Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision
SLAs from half-fey (charm spells synergize with your high Cha)
Undead immunities

Winter Chill (Su): Living, nonfey creatures within 5 feet suffer a morale penalty on saves equal to the unseelie fey's Charisma bonus.
28 point buy: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 18; racial mods -2, +6, -2, 0, 0, +10
Stats @ 20th: Str 6, Dex 26 (20) Con -, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 44 (38)
Cha buffs: mertoran leaf (+2), potentially aging bonuses (+3) , faustian pact (+1), can UMD transfusion (+1-+5), snowsong (+4), greater visage of the deity (+4)
BAB 16; base saves Fort 14, Ref 16, Will 9; hp 135; init +28
R: Quick Draw
F: Weapon Focus (light mace, something else @ 1st then swap w/ weapon aptitude)*
F: TWF
1: Unorthodox Flurry*
3: Craven
6: Sun School*
9: Staggering Strike
12: Planar Touchstone (Oxyrhynchus)
15: Lightning Mace
18: Confound the Big Folk
--
B: Imp. Unarmed Strike (mnk 1)
B: Underfoot Combat (mnk 1) ( from Hin disciple)
B: Combat Reflexes (mnk 2)
B: Mercurial Strike (mnk 6)
--
B. Weapon Focus (katana) (clr 1, War, swapped w/ weapon aptitude)
B. EWP (quickrazor) (clr 1, Revered Ancestors, swapped w/ weapon aptitude)
B. Knowledge Devotion (clr 1, Knowledge)
--
B: Dodge (iaijutsu 4)
--
B. Mobility (golden dancing pegleg)**
B. Spring Attack (golden dancing pegleg)**
B. Blind-Fight (fiendish ear)**
B. Improved Initiative (bracers of the blinding strike or silverhelm of the guardian)

*These feats are initially used for Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack, then retrained or psychic reformed when you can obtain those feats from the pegleg (ECL 14+) and iaijutsu master (ECL 19th).
**Per Sword & Fist, virtual feats (“benefit of x feat”) fulfill prerequisites.


Other Feats that Would Be Nice to Have: Hidden Talent (dimension hop), Power Attack > Divine Might, Robilar's Gambit. Gravy: Snap Kick, Azure Talent, Bonus Essentia, Multiattack.

Heroics for one of the above. Possibly trade Underfoot Combat & Confound the Big Folk for two more. (Could be PA>DM using martial monk ACF.)

Had to get rid of Hidden Talent to fit Lightning Mace. Anklets & belt of battle give you 5 swift action teleports per encounter -- enough for a 10 round fight, which is plenty -- but it's unfortunate that it means you are fully item dependent for swift action teleports.

Underfoot Combat>Confound the Big Folk included so the build can perform in situations where there is no way to use shadow blend and foes are both paralysis immune & have true seeing (so paralyzing enhancement and invisibility don't work either). In practice, I might swap those feats out and focus on more ways to make sure you’re in darkness.
Ranks: Arcana 11, dungeoneering 6, hide 18, iaijutsu focus 23, local 6, move silently 10, nature 3, perform (dance) 5, planes 8, religion 6, tumble 15, UMD 12

1: arcana 4, hide 4, move silently 4, iaijutsu 2 cc, tumble 4
2: arcana 1, hide 1, move silently 1, religion 2, tumble 1
3: arcana 1, hide 1, move silently 1, iaijutsu 1 cc, tumble 1
4: arcana 1, hide 1, move silently 1, religion 2, tumble 1
5: arcana 1, hide 1, move silently 1, iaijutsu 1 cc, tumble 1
6: arcana 1, hide 1, move silently 1, religion 2, tumble 1
7: arcana 1, hide 1, move silently 1, iaijutsu 1 cc, tumble 1
8: hide 1, planes 5
9: hide 1, iaijutsu 1 cc, nature 3
10: arcana 1, planes 3
11: hide 2, iaijutsu 1 cc, UMD 2
12: hide 1, UMD 5
13: hide 1, iaijutsu 1 cc, UMD 3
14: local 6
15: hide 2, iaijutsu 1 cc, UMD 2
16: iaijutsu 1, perform (dance) 5
17: iaijutsu 6
18: iaijutsu 4, tumble 2
19: iaijutsu 2, tumble 4
20: dungeoneering 5, iaijutsu 1

Explanation: This fulfills our obligations (10 Hide/MS for Telf; 8 planes for Touchstone; 5 dance for slippers; 9 iaijutsu for Ia Master; 10 tumble for Confound) while also giving ranks in each Knowledge Devotion skill (since we get that feat as a side benefit of the cleric dip).
Maneuvers
Stance: blood in the water
Maneuvers: white raven strike (readied), white raven tactics (readied), shadow jaunt (from item; readied), douse the flames

Blood in the Water will quickly result in large bonuses due to the # of attacks you make.

Incarnum
Your melds are blink shirt to shadow pounce, claws of the wyrm for claw attacks and chaos roc's span (from Dragon Mag) for some extra Staggering Strike procs.
Both essentia in blink shirt for 30 ft teleport range.
WEAPONS (127.5k)
+1 aptitude keen paralyzing Tiger Claw adamantine quickrazor 75k w/ greater truedeath crystal 10k
+1 aptitude keen Tiger Claw quickrazor (for offhand) 18k
two wand chambers 200
+1 shortspear 2k with greater returning crystal 4k
+1 focus (OA) katana 4.5k (+4 insight to Iaijutsu Focus)

UMD (36k)
CL 20 wand of deeper darkness, 10 charges 9k
CL 20 wand of greater magic weapon, 10 charges 9k
CL 20 wand of greater mighty wallop, 10 charges 9k
CL 20 wand of magic vestment, 10 charges 9k
CL 1 wand of weapon shift, 25 charges 325*
CL 5 wand of reduce person, 10 charges 650**

*Use weapon shift on your quickrazors to turn them into bludgeoning weapons, then put greater mighty wallop on them. When weapon shift ends they turn back into quickrazors but now have wallop on them.
**To affect Medium creatures with Confound feat.

ARMOR (10k)
+1 animated mithral heavy shield 10k - add more to it when you have money

WONDROUS ITEMS (339k)
Arms: bracers of the blinding strike* w/ bracers of the hunter, bracers of murder and bracers of Majere added 172k
Body: none
Face: blindfold of true darkness 9k
Feet: slippers of battledancing 33k
Hands: gauntlets of heartfelt blows 12k w/ Shadow Hand gloves (shadow jaunt) 4.5k and gloves of the balanced hand 12k added
Head: 4 anklets of translocation alternate slot 8.5k
Ring 1: ring of anticipation 6k
Ring 2: ring of the darkhidden 2k
Shoulders: shadow cloak (DotU 101) 5.5k
Throat: +1 aptitude necklace of natural weapons (claws) 8k
Torso: rogue's vest 18k
Waist: 4 belts of battle 48k
No slot: handy haversack 2k, 8 minor cognizance crystals (1 pp) 8k (you can fill 2 per day of downtime)

Battle belts and anklets are swapped each encounter.

*from magic of faerun, not “bracers of blinding strikes” from MIC.

GRAFTS (59.5k)
Golden dancing pegleg (Dragon 318 p54) 50k
Long arm* 5k
Fiendish ear 2.5k
Fiendish jaw 2k

*Primarily so that you still threaten spaces (for Mercurial Strike) when affected by reduce person, but good either way.

TOMES (137k)
Tome of Charisma +5 137k

ADDED TO OTHER ITEMS (91k)
Saves +5 25k
Cha +6 36k
Dex +6 36k

EXPENDITURES (2.5k)
Ritual of Shadow Walking (Lords of Darkness p125) 2.5k
Ritual of Crucimigration 3k
psychic reformation for dodge/mobility/spring attack -- gonna be a few k

MUNDANE (1.5k)
Mwk tools for iaijutsu focus, UMD, all K (Dev) knowledge skills 400
A hot stack of mertoran leaf (costs 10gp/hour of use) 1.1k

Wreathed in Darkness. Keep deeper darkness active on yourself via UMD. It both triggers your monk shadow blend and gives you a natural 60-ft radius in which you can use your ritual of shadow walking teleport. The long duration means this spell is extremely cheap to keep up (45 gp/day).

Deeper darkness has a radius of 60 ft but your shadow walking teleport has 100 ft range. How to get the full value? Put deeper darkness on a throwing weapon (like a spear for the long range) with a crystal of return. You can throw it as part of a move or swift action shadow pounce, then use your standard action to shadow walk to that location and shadow pounce the foe in question. Drop it at start of round if you don't need.

Not addressed here: you want a way to summon additional items with darkness placed on them in case of dispels. Maybe instant summons? You can also put deeper darkness on objects and drop them as a free action to create an area you can teleport back to.

Iaijutsu Focus. Your main source of damage is iaijutsu focus. All iaijutsu attacks will also trigger sneak attack. You qualify for the “draw a weapon” part of iaijutsu with quickrazors which are a free action to stow after using. What remains is to render foes flat-footed.
[B]Shadow Blend. You have total concealment except in “full natural daylight” or a daylight spell. Deeper darkness means you have this unless dispelled. Foes who can’t see you are FFed vs you per RC. Note that your concealment from this ability applies even against creatures who can see through darkness.
Act First. Creatures who haven’t acted yet in combat are FFed.
Paralyzing weapon enhancement. Foes struck by your attacks must save or be paralyzed. Paralyzed creatures are FFed.
Confound the Big Folk. You can move into a larger creature’s space and they are flat-footed next round. But see rules issues.
Greater Invisibility. Your telflammar spellcasting lets you cast greater invisibility. Foes who can’t see you are FFed vs you per RC.
Blink: Some argue that blink has the same effect as above because it lets you "strike as an invisible creature", but people can still see you, so it's dubious.

White Raven Strike. Maneuver, requires refresh. Attack flat-foots foe for 1 round. But costs your standard action shadow pounce and only affects 1 foe, so shouldn't be used.

Shadow Pounce. You want to use as many of your actions as possible to teleport and shadow pounce.
MOVE ACTION
Blink Shirt. At will move action teleport, scales with essentia. Must start every turn by using this to move at least 10 feet to activate your slippers of battle dancing.

STANDARD ACTION
Ritual of Shadow Walking. Gained from a ritual on Lords of Darkness page 125. At will 100 ft teleport, but only from shadows to shadows. Deeper darkness gives you a 60-foot radius to use it in. 2 temporary con damage and 3d4 hp loss with each use, but con damage is irrelevant to undead.
Shadow Jump. telflammar class feature, max 80ft/day of dimension door with same shadow restriction as above. But no hp loss.
Shadow Jaunt. Readied maneuver, must be refreshed. 50 ft. Save for if your darkness gets dispelled.

SWIFT ACTION
Anklets of Translocation. 2/encounter (you put on a new pair after each encounter). 10 ft.
Belt of Battle. 3/encounter (you switch belts after each encounter), trade a swift action for a move action and use blink shirt.
Dimension Hop. Base 2/day but cognizance crystals are cheap and let you use it more -- though you can only fill 2 per day of downtime. 10ft.

IMMEDIATE ACTION
Shadow Cloak. 3/day. When attacked, teleport up to 10 feet and shadow pounce. Buy more cloaks if you end up using it a lot.

Paralyzing, Winter’s Chill & Massive Damage. Each attack you make triggers a DC 15 save for death from massive damage and most also trigger a DC 17 save to be paralyzed (from the paralyzing weapon enhancement) for 1 round, which renders foe flat-footed. Those DCs are pretty low, right? Well, due to the winter chill ability from your unseelie fey template, living creatures adjacent to you have a -18 penalty on saving throws, so the save DCs for them are functionally 33 and 35, respectively. This is in addition to the staggering strike saves which will be much higher, and in the case of your iaijutsu attacks virtually unmakable.
Damage values (with slippers activated and GMW/wallop applied):
MH quickrazor 3d6 base + 18 cha + 18 fire + 5 enhance (51.5)
OH quickrazor 3d6 + 9 cha + 18 fire + 5 enhance (42.5)
Claw 1d12 + 9 cha + 18 fire + 1 enhance (34.5)
Gore 1d4 + 9 cha + 18 fire + 1 enhance (30.5)
Wing buffet 18 fire; rest is nonlethal damage, but triggers Staggering Strike
Sneak attack 4d6 + 20 (34)
Iaijutsu 9d6 + 162 (193.5)

These are with mertoran leaf and +6 charisma item; additional Cha boosts raise the values further. Fire dmg is from gauntlets of heartfelt blows.
Aptitude enhancement allows both Lightning Mace and Unorthodox Flurry to apply to all weapons used.

Flurry Nova (Foe(s) are FF): (IA = delivers iaijutsu focus damage)
Move: Blink shirt to activate slippers and shadow pounce (9 main IA (4 BAB, 1 flurry, 1 majere, 1 haste, 1 SunSch, 1 Oxy) + 2 offhand IA + 2 claws + 1 gore + 2 wing buffet.)
Standard: Standard action teleport and shadow pounce (as above).
Swift: WRT
Move: Blink shirt to activate slippers and shadow pounce (as above).
Standard: Standard action teleport and shadow pounce (as above).
Swift: Swift action teleport and shadow pounce (as above).

If all hit: 45 main (2318), 10 offhand (425), 10 claw (345), 5 gore (153), 10 buffet (180), 70 sneak (2380), 55 iaijutsu (10,615); total 16,415 plus crits & stance dmg.

With 30% crit rate on quickrazors, that gives 16.5 crits & Lightning Mace procs, which trigger a further 5 crits/LMs > 1.5 crits/LMs > .5 crits/LMs for a total of 23.5 quickrazor crits (1636) and LMs (6512), bringing total to 24,204. Nat weapon crits bring it to about 24.3k. Blood in the water means we also rack up +24 to hit and to damage by the end of this.

The next round sucks in comparison:

Refresh Round:
Move: Blink shirt to activate slippers and shadow pounce (as above)
Standard: Standard action teleport and shadow pounce (as above); right before one of your shadow pounce attacks, use a swift action to refresh.

If all hit: 18 main (927), 4 offhand (170), 4 claw (138), 2 gore (61), 4 buffet (72), 28 sneak (952), 22 iaijutsu (4257); total 6,505 plus crits & stance dmg.

Refresh round quickrazor crits & LM procs: 6.6 > 2 > .6 > .2 = 9.4 crits (654), 9.4 LM (2600), bringing total to 9759 (plus 700 bitw damage which we won't factor in). And another +9.5 to hit and damage via bitw for next nova.

So the averaged round-over-round damage against a 0 AC target is about 17k plus blood in the water damage, minus natural 1s (-5% output, which can be roughly offset with +2 Cha). Fire resistance/immunity will reduce the damage from gauntlets.

Crit immune foes aren't a big problem since your crits aren't big damage dealers -- they don't get iaijutsu focus or SA -- and Lightning Mace doesn't rely on being able to actually score crits, just threaten them.

AoOs: The numbers above don't take into consideration AoOs, which deal iaijutsu damage thanks to Mercurial Strike. You're probably using heroics to get Robilar's Gambit. The feat synergizes with your shadow cloak, which you can use to maximize single turn damage at the expense of further rounds (it means you can't refresh on your next turn).

Extra: If you pre-buff with a wand of sadism (BOVD), the nova round grants about +2400 to hit during the refresh round, while the refresh round grants about +1000 to hit during the subsequent nova. The bonus also applies to IF rolls, maxing them regardless of any skill penalties that may accrue. Of course, in real combat the bonuses won't be nearly that high because they're limited by enemy hp.

Telflammar Entry. Totemist's blink shirt qualifies you for telflammar. Per CArc 71, you only need to be able to "produce the required effect" to qualify for a specific spell prerequisite. SLAs are the example given, but the rule is generally stated, so should also apply to su effects that function as a spell.
If the DM rules against this, you need to sacrifice two feats for Fey Heritage > Fey Legacy, which hurts but doesn't ruin the build.

If your blink shirt is dispelled do you cease to fulfill the prereq? No -- you remain inherently capable of producing the required effect.

Uncanny Dodge Uncanny dodge doesn’t counter this build. You can still be FFed with uncanny dodge, you merely “retain your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if caught flat-footed”. So no sneak attack, but iaijutsu still works.

Confound the Big Folk and Teleports. Rules Compendium says a teleported creature “must arrive in an open location”. I think “open location” is most reasonably read to mean “space you can occupy”, but could also be read to preclude entering a space a creature occupies even if you are able to co-occupy that space due to larger size. Another potential reason not to take those feats.
The thematic match of shadow blend, shadow pounce and the ritual of shadow walking is pleasing. There's also appreciable synergy between blink shirt, slippers of battledancing, iaijutsu focus and shadow pounce.

The build I think is elegant because 19 of the 20 levels are essential. Cleric 1 is chosen for the stray level to get feats. Ideally it would also power Divine Might but you come up short on feats.

This isn't really a high-op build because it's "big numberz"/melee SOLs and little else, but the SLAs from half-fey (dominate spells, at will charm person) combined with a high Cha score give you some utility and winter chill makes you a great enabler for other party members with save-yes effects.

Wish list:
- A way to use turning charges.
- More feats.
- More ways to ensure you're in darkness.
- More natural attacks.
- More Cha to X.

Please critique.

Character portrait (https://i.imgur.com/xZiIn7n.jpg)

Variant build using Ruby Knight Vindicator (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25068630&postcount=36)

Darg
2021-03-02, 12:16 PM
It's just a singular extra attack at a -5 bonus. If it were to give an extra attack per attack you can make with your BAB then it would have said 3 extra attacks instead of 2 because you get extra attacks with your BAB being 6+. The PHB is explicit that you have to use a full attack to make use of extra attacks. It provides an exception for cleave and snap kick provides its own exception. Otherwise you would have things like tempest breaking the rules and therefore allowing it to make use of extra attacks because the rules no longer apply.

Bottom line, the realistic ruling is that you have to make a full attack to benefit or extra attacks apply basically anytime you benefit from multiple attacks.

daremetoidareyo
2021-03-02, 01:52 PM
Xeph has a racial feat that allows a second standard action in a round.

MaxiDuRaritry
2021-03-02, 02:13 PM
You don't even need Snap Kick for it. So long as you're capable of making AoOs, you qualify to use the feat. So avoid being blinded, and you're more or less fine for that.

Not that Snap Kick is anything but good, especially if you've put some effort into your unarmed strikes, but it is a feat you might not be able to afford to spend.

Elves
2021-03-02, 02:52 PM
It's just a singular extra attack at a -5 bonus. If it were to give an extra attack per attack you can make with your BAB then it would have said 3 extra attacks instead of 2 because you get extra attacks with your BAB being 6+.
I don't want to get into a big rules discussion over something that's ultimately unclear. Instead, here's how the attack sequences look under that ruling.

Flurry of Blows Nova (Foe(s) are FF):
Move: Blink shirt. Activate slippers and shadow pounce
4 main IA + flurry IA + haste IA + SunSch IA + 2 offhand IA + 2 claws + gore + snap + oxy IA
Standard: Any SA teleport and shadow pounce
4 main IA + flurry IA + haste IA + SunSch IA + 2 offhand IA + 2 claws + gore + snap + oxy IA
Swift: WRT
Move: Blink shirt. Activate slippers and shadow pounce
4 main IA + flurry IA + haste IA + SunSch IA + 2 offhand IA + 2 claws + gore + snap + oxy IA
Standard: Any SA teleport and shadow pounce
4 main IA + flurry IA + haste IA + SunSch IA + 2 offhand IA + 2 claws + gore + snap + oxy IA
Swift: Anklets, belt or dimension hop and shadow pounce
4 main IA + flurry IA + haste IA + SunSch IA + 2 offhand IA + 2 claws + gore + snap + oxy IA
If all hit: 40 main (1900), 10 offhand (395), 10 claw (315), 5 gore (137.5), 5 unarmed (325); 70 sneak (2135), 50 iaijutsu (8775); total 13,982 plus crits & stance dmg
Difference: -15,210


Decisive Strike Nova (Foe(s) are FF):
Full-round: Decisive strike w/flick (2 main IA + 2 snap + 2 oxy IA)
Swift: WRT
Move: Blink shirt. Activate slippers and shadow pounce
8 main IA + 2 haste IA + 2 SunSch IA + 4 offhand IA + 4 claws + 2 gore + 2 snap + 2 oxy IA
Standard: Any SA teleport and shadow pounce
8 main IA + 2 haste IA + 2 SunSch IA + 4 offhand IA + 4 claws + 2 gore + 2 snap + 2 oxy IA
Swift: Anklets, belt or dimension hop and shadow pounce
8 main IA + 2 haste IA + 2 SunSch IA + 4 offhand IA + 4 claws + 2 gore + 2 snap + 2 oxy IA
If all hit: 46 main (2185), 12 offhand (474), 12 claw (378), 6 gore (165), 8 unarmed (520); 84 sneak (2562), 60 iaijutsu (10179); total 16463 plus crits & stance dmg
Difference: -17,238

Flurry maximum falls to 14k + crits, decisive strike to 16.5k + crits. Much less impressive, but still "big numbers". Decisive probably comes out the winner because flurry isn't getting as many BITW/paralyzing/massive damage procs.

Saintheart
2021-03-02, 07:41 PM
Iaijutsu Master Weapon Finesse. Does iaijutsu master’s weapon finesse class feature grant the benefit of the WF feat? If so, add aptitude to razors. But you still want to apply slippers if at all possible.

Probably no. The Aptitude weapon quality specifically says "A wielder who has feats that affect the use of a weapon..." The weapon finesse (Ex) ability might "work like" Weapon Finesse, but it's a class feature, not a feat.

Anthrowhale
2021-03-02, 09:05 PM
If pegleg refers to the "Golden Dancing Pegleg" in Dragon #318 page 54, I believe it grants Mobility and Spring Attack, not Dodge and Mobility.

Elves
2021-03-02, 09:30 PM
Rereading the text of Oxyrynchus, changed my mind:


You can make this extra attack during any round that you can make multiple attacks, but only with your chosen weapon type. This means that if you are of a high enough level to make additional attacks (you have at least a +6 or higher base attack bonus), you could make two additional attacks at your base attack bonus -5.

I think what it's describing here is that your attack sequence if you have, for example, 16 BAB is +0/-5/-5/-10/-15, with one of the -5s being from Oxyrynchus. This makes Darg's reading of only 1 extra attack correct.

As described above, this basically halves the build's damage, from the 30k range down to the 15k range. Disappointing, but still, in my view, a cool build that can likely kill whatever it needs to. At least it saves 40k in WBL since you don't need aptitude on your natural weapon necklaces.

Gruftzwerg
2021-03-03, 01:01 AM
I just flew over the build since I'm a bit short on time atm, but it looks very nice on first impression. Well done ;)


To your other questions about possible improvement:

You could try to change your race to Changeling and dip Warshaper 1. This gives you Morphic Weapons which allows you to grow any Natural Weapon you want (dmg changed to your size). Have a look at this nice list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?286497-101-Natural-Weapons)to have an impression of how OP the ability is. But lets keep it on a sane lvl..
Grow some tentacles and become a creepy Hentai villain xD
Imho fitting for the build due to the amount of natural attacks/weapons

Or how about some Hydra heads (bite)?
This option is debatable, but the ability is worded so poorly that it seems to be supported by RAW. If you can grow Claws, then it should also be possible to grow Bites that you don't have, which would include the heads to get the bites. The big cheese here is that these "bites"/heads allow you to move and attack at the same time at max BAB.

Elves
2021-03-03, 02:16 AM
Certainly possible by dishing underfoot/confound since cleric gives 2 feats. Under the new non-favorable reading though natural attacks don't have a ton of synergy since they don't have iaijutsu.

Another thing you could do is the crit angle. Lightning Maces likely work with aptituded claws since the feat only says "using". That's 2 feats for like +12 attacks, or a lot more on the bleu cheese version of the build. Not bad.

Elves
2021-05-20, 09:45 PM
Updated the build to reflect correct Oxyrynchus reading. Cut the fluff text for brevity.

Saintheart
2021-05-20, 11:39 PM
Other Feats that Would Be Nice to Have: ... Flick of the Wrist ....

It might not be Flick of the Wrist, but the Hidden Blade skill trick which comes sort-of close to achieving the same thing. Costs you 2 skill points for the skill and 5 in Sleight of Hand. Quickrazors slash out from hidden sheaths along the wrist if I remember right.

Elves
2021-05-21, 10:49 AM
It might not be Flick of the Wrist, but the Hidden Blade skill trick which comes sort-of close to achieving the same thing. Costs you 2 skill points for the skill and 5 in Sleight of Hand. Quickrazors slash out from hidden sheaths along the wrist if I remember right.
The references to flick of the wrist are a relic of an earlier version, my bad - removed. Shadow Blend means you don't need it.

The two FF skill tricks aren't any good for shadow pouncers unfortunately since they have an action cost.

--

Edit: Realized that without Unorthodox Flurry you can't make that decisive strike attack in the nova sequence with a quickrazor, so you should get a few +1 aptitude monk weapons and use those to start the sequence, then drop them.

Elves
2021-05-22, 04:28 PM
Realized there's no immunity clause on the ritual of shadow walking like there is for hellfire warlock so you could just go necropolitan and skip the feat for strongheart vest. Doesn't help much though since you can't take most of the feats you want at 1st level. Maybe take the psionics-incarnum one.

Saintheart
2021-05-23, 12:36 AM
Nitpick, but I'm not sure picking up Weapon Focus (katana) by the War domain actually works. Firstly, I actually looked: there are no gods who have the katana as their preferred weapon. Bastard swords, yes, but katana is a different weapon.

Secondly, the domain power - at least by RAW - only grants proficiency and Weapon Focus with a martial weapon, which a bastard sword/katana is not. Just because a katana is considered to be a martial weapon when wielded in both hands doesn't mean you're picking up proficiency in a Martial Weapon.

Saintheart
2021-05-23, 12:37 AM
Nitpick, but I'm not sure picking up Weapon Focus (katana) by the War domain actually works. Firstly, I actually looked: there are no gods who have the katana as their preferred weapon. Bastard swords, yes, but katana is a different weapon.

Secondly, the domain power - at least by RAW - only grants proficiency and Weapon Focus with a martial weapon, which a bastard sword/katana is not. Just because a katana is considered to be a martial weapon when wielded in both hands doesn't mean you're picking up proficiency in a Martial Weapon. And then there's the argument that while Warblade could switch the weapon the feat applies to, it doesn't change the weapon from martial to exotic or vice versa.

Endarire
2021-05-23, 02:49 AM
How many feats can heroics give a creature at a time, assuming many castings? For example, can heroics grant 3 Fighter bonus feats with 3 castings assuming you met the prereqs for each at cast time?

Also, Tome of Battle 28 and 62 list Bastard Sword (Katana) as a favored weapon of the Diamond Mind discipline. By RAW, they're the same weapon.

Saintheart
2021-05-23, 04:16 AM
Also, Tome of Battle 28 and 62 list Bastard Sword (Katana) as a favored weapon of the Diamond Mind discipline. By RAW, they're the same weapon.

Tome of Battle also lists the bastard sword (with no parenthetical mention of the katana) as a favored weapon of the Iron Heart discipline (p. 41). And notice how the p. 62 reference to Diamond Mind says bastard sword (or katana) is a preferred weapon. At best the katana is a masterwork bastard sword, but it is a distinct weapon nonetheless, or else there'd be no need to make a distinction between them.

Elves
2021-05-23, 11:06 AM
This is beside the point since you can switch it with Weapon Aptitude regardless of your god.


Secondly, the domain power - at least by RAW - only grants proficiency and Weapon Focus with a martial weapon, which a bastard sword/katana is not.
It's "Free Martial Weapon Proficiency with deity’s favored weapon (if necessary) and Weapon Focus with the deity’s favored weapon". The proficiency is limited to martial but the WF isn't.


How many feats can heroics give a creature at a time, assuming many castings? For example, can heroics grant 3 Fighter bonus feats with 3 castings assuming you met the prereqs for each at cast time?

See this line in the SRD:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

Endarire
2021-05-24, 01:58 AM
Note that resist energy and certain multifunction spells let you choose their effect at cast time. Since you aren't assumedly giving the subject Improved Initiative every time, debatably heroics lets you get many feats.

In every game where I've tried casting resist energy, I could choose which energy type per casting I warded against. Multiple castings on the same subject could have a buncha energy resists of different types (acid, fire, and cold, for example).

Elves
2021-05-24, 11:40 AM
Note that resist energy and certain multifunction spells let you choose their effect at cast time. Since you aren't assumedly giving the subject Improved Initiative every time, debatably heroics lets you get many feats.

In every game where I've tried casting resist energy, I could choose which energy type per casting I warded against. Multiple castings on the same subject could have a buncha energy resists of different types (acid, fire, and cold, for example).
It's not 100% clear wrt resist energy. Searched it and some people argue that the PHB example of that rule indicates a different intent -- not sure I agree -- and others point to the Draconomicon text of energy immunity, which does seem to allow it, but which isn't RAW-valid any more since the latest printing of the spell was in Spell Compendium and used a more restrictive wording.

Multiple instances of heroics seem unbalanced to me and prohibiting them fits with the quoted rule so that's what I'm assuming for now.

Anthrowhale
2021-05-24, 05:49 PM
See this line in the SRD:
I believe this line refers to polymorph type spells where a second polymorph inherently makes the first polymorph irrelevant. Hence, the 'effects become irrelevant' is a specification of the scope of 'Usually' rather than a description of what happens. Resist Energy doesn't happen to be the usual case.

Saintheart
2021-05-24, 11:42 PM
This is beside the point since you can switch it with Weapon Aptitude regardless of your god.

It's "Free Martial Weapon Proficiency with deity’s favored weapon (if necessary) and Weapon Focus with the deity’s favored weapon". The proficiency is limited to martial but the WF isn't.


Not sure that flies either, and that's because of Weapon Focus's prerequisites.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that War domain grants you a feat outright and isn't some sort of power or something odd. If so, then like any other feat, Weapon Focus's prerequisites all have to be in place or the feat that lies atop them does not function. And Weapon Focus specifically requires that you are proficient with the weapon the subject of Weapon Focus.

This is one major reason the War domain power grants you (judging by the SRD version (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm) of the domain power) a Martial Weapon Proficiency feat if you require it as well as Weapon Focus in that same weapon: because the Weapon Focus will not work unless there's proficiency in the weapon underlying it. Most clerics don't have martial weapon proficiency in their god's weapon.

"Aha, but Warblade Weapon Aptitude allows you to alter multiple feats this way. Thus, if someone has the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat and Weapon Focus, you can shift the applicable weapon for both."

Not so if your god's favored weapon is an exotic weapon. Leaving aside a grand total of about 3 gods in the whole of 3.5 have the War domain and a favored weapon of bastard sword, you cannot grant Martial Weapon Proficiency in an exotic weapon:


A cleric who chooses the War domain automatically gains the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat related to his deity’s favored weapon as a bonus feat, if the weapon is a martial one.

And by the same token you likely can't use Warblade Aptitude to get a Martial Weapon Proficiency feat to apply to an exotic weapon. So when the Warblade comes along and says "longsword proficiency and Weapon Focus in longsword? No problem, Warblade Aptitude and now I have katana proficiency and Weapon Focus in it" ... well, no. Because at best you've been given a Martial Weapon Proficiency feat and Weapon Focus doesn't function without proficiency in the weapon. I think it's a very big stretch of RAW at best to conclude you can take a Martial Weapon Proficiency feat and change its application to an exotic weapon.

And again for the sake of argument, let's assume you're just being granted some sort of pseudo-feat, a power, in the suggestion that you pick up Weapon Focus without having to satisfy the prerequisites. If that's true, then Warblade Aptitude won't work on it - because Weapon Aptitude only functions on feats, not class features.

Elves
2021-05-25, 01:08 AM
I'm not sure what you're saying. Revered Ancestors domain grants EWP and War domain grants Weapon Focus. Both are then changed via Weapon Aptitude.

Saintheart
2021-05-25, 03:08 AM
I'm not sure what you're saying. Revered Ancestors domain grants EWP and War domain grants Weapon Focus. Both are then changed to quickrazor via Weapon Aptitude.

Oh right, now I get it. I misread the feat list as implying the Weapon Focus in katana was the original grant of the War domain, not the weapon-shifted one under Warblade - and I didn't see Revered Ancestor domain there too. Which is okay, albeit you're down to being a cleric of the Spirits of the Past from Eberron specifically.

Asmotherion
2021-05-25, 05:29 AM
For the "more feats" part:

You can start as an elf, who has 4 weapon feats (Chaos Shufflable)

You can also worship an Elder evil for a bunsh of bonus feats (every 3rd level if my memory doesn't play tricks on me?). Those should also be Chaos Shufflable by RAW I think.

This should amount for around 11 extra feats for your character.

Elves
2021-05-25, 05:31 AM
Which is okay, albeit you're down to being a cleric of the Spirits of the Past from Eberron specifically.
Remember, clerics can freely choose their domains: "If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities."

I misspoke by the way: the WF is for katana, not quickrazor. But you can take WF for it because "a character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon". It's only an exotic weapon when wielded in one hand.

Elves
2021-05-25, 06:49 AM
Just noticed a dumb mistake. Decisive strike only lasts until your next turn, not until next round, so it doesn't work with WRT. Only the flurry + bracers of Majere version does. That's the stronger version anyway because of the higher number of attacks, but does have a 6k lower damage cap. This necessitates Lightning Maces to be competitive, so you've got to sacrifice either Hidden Talent or Mercurial Strike.

Saintheart
2021-05-25, 09:57 AM
Remember, clerics can freely choose their domains: "If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities."

Fortunately, you've got Revered Ancestor as you say, which gives you EWP in the Valenar Double Scimitar. Because a cleric can have no deity and thus pick up War and Revered Ancestor, but if he's a cleric of an ideal, his favoured weapons are chosen (per Defenders of the Faith) for him by virtue of his alignment, in line with how Spiritual Weapon works for clerics with no god. Each of those 'alignment' weapons are martial, not exotic.



But you can take WF for it because "a character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon". It's only an exotic weapon when wielded in one hand.

That I would say is a misreading of the entry for bastard sword. The entry reads:

"A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."

Weapon proficiency - which EWP and MWP grant - is a separate topic. If you are not specially trained - i.e. have Exotic Weapon Proficiency - then you are not deemed to be proficient with that weapon. You do not have the requisite Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat that opens up stuff like Exotic Weapon Master. If you happen to be proficient with martial weapons generally, you can utilise the bastard sword two-handed, but that does not change the fact it's an exotic weapon. Your argument would be stronger if the wording of the entry was "used thus, it is an exotic weapon." On top of that, it is classed in every table as a one-handed weapon, and appears in no table as a two-handed weapon.

Weapon Focus says: "choose one type of weapon." Where is "bastard sword wielded two handed" mentioned in the SRD list of weapons?

Weapons Focus's prerequisites include: "proficiency with selected weapon." The bastard sword's entry says nothing about proficiency, only that it is an exotic weapon and that it can be used as a martial weapon provided you use it two-handed. Indeed the SRD provides a closed category of situations in which proficiency with a weapon is granted: (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficienc y)


Weapon, armor, or shield proficiency may be granted by the character's race, class or by the following feats:

Armor Proficiency (Light)
Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Shield Proficiency
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Tower Shield Proficiency

Elves
2021-05-25, 10:50 AM
"If the creature isn’t proficient with a weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies." If you aren't taking that penalty, you are by definition proficient.

If you switch to using it one-handed, your WF feat doesn't apply and you take a nonproficiency penalty, because the weapon is exotic in that capacity. As you note, it's normally displayed on tables as a one-handed exotic weapon, but the text tells us it can also be used as a two-handed martial weapon and text>table.

nedz
2021-05-25, 10:57 AM
You are short of feats but you could consider Travel Devotion instead of the Belt(l) of Battle. Spend one TU, swift, to be able to convert swift action to move actions for 10 rounds.

Also Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) for +2d6 sneak

Elves
2021-05-25, 11:05 AM
You are short of feats but you could consider Travel Devotion instead of the Belt(l) of Battle. Spend one TU, swift, to be able to convert swift action to move actions for 10 rounds.

Also Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) for +2d6 sneak

TD unfortunately doesn't give a move action, only lets you move up to your speed. Otherwise it could be an interesting way of covering the swift action teleports.

Assassin's stance gives more damage off the bat than BITW, but BITW quickly does more and also grants +hit which is important since you don't have the actions to spare for wraithstrike or the feats to persist it.



For the "more feats" part:

You can start as an elf, who has 4 weapon feats (Chaos Shufflable)

You can also worship an Elder evil for a bunsh of bonus feats (every 3rd level if my memory doesn't play tricks on me?). Those should also be Chaos Shufflable by RAW I think.

This should amount for around 11 extra feats for your character.

Chaos shuffle is always possible but I'd rather keep the cheese to a minimum.

Elves
2021-05-29, 03:25 PM
The SRD led me astray. This is why you should always check RC. SRD mentions extra damage dice not being multiplied on a crit, but RC 40 has a blanket statement that all "extra damage" is not multiplied, which would include Craven and strike from the void. This would reduce nova damage by like 5k.

rrwoods
2021-05-29, 04:30 PM
This page says “extra damage dice” https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

This page says “extra damage” https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

So even inside the SRD itself there’s inconsistent looking statements. If you assume both are true, no extra damage is multiplied (and the statement about dice is redundant as it’s already covered by the other one).

Elves
2021-05-30, 11:52 AM
I realized that in the case of strike from the void it's actually beside the point: the ability "adds [your] Charisma modifier to each extra damage die gained from using the Iaijutsu Focus skill". Unlike Craven, it's adding that damage directly to the dice, so if the dice aren't rerolled on a crit ("A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses") the bonus to them can't be added.

(If critical hits were simply multiplied rather than re-rolled, that wouldn't be the case.)

So that lowers nova damage to 25k. Man, this build just keeps getting ground down...but I guess we're grinding down to the truth.

But that rules question still matters to people using Craven, ie every rogue ever. Craven simply says "when making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level" -- it's not a direct modifier to the dice.

Elves
2021-05-31, 08:27 PM
Another spin on this: x1/crs 1/monk 1/clr 1/RKV 7/telflammar 4/iaijutsu master 5 using Primary Contact early entry for RKV. Travel domain and assassins stance to qualify for telflammar.

Pro:
- +1 shadow pounce each round (divine impetus).
- Has an actual use for turn undead.
- Cleric 3rds.

Con:
- no at will move action teleport, so have to use spells and items.
- no shadow blend (can UMD persisted greater invisibility with metamagic wand grip I suppose).
- no blood in the water bonus to hit.
- your monk level isn't high enough to take Lightning Fists.
- less consistent access to WRT unless x1 is warblade. (You could burn a feat on martial stance, using a disc item for the non stance DS maneuver, but to fit all your feats in that would necessitate warblade 1/fighter or psywar 1, so you might as well go warblade 1/crusader 1 instead).


--

Looking at routines, seems like the best is actually RKV and decisive strike:

Current build: 5 pounces nova, 2 pounces refresh = 3.5 pounces per turn
RKV and flurry: 6 pounces nova, 3 pounces refresh = 4.5 pounces per turn

RKV and decisive strike:
Nova - Standard pounce, move pounce, swift WRT; full round action decisive strike, swift pounce (doubled), divine impetus swift pounce (doubled), immediate action pounce (doubled) = 8 pounces
Refresh - Standard pounce, move pounce, divine impetus swift refresh = 2 pounces
= 5 pounces per turn

This is provided you can get a reliable immediate action teleport; a chambered wand of celerity combined with daze immunity would work.

25 or more turning uses per day (3 + 18 cha + 4 nightstick) mean you will rarely run out even burning 1 per round on divine impetus, but it might prohibit Divine Might.

Saintheart
2021-06-01, 10:30 PM
Footnote more for frustration than anything else, but there's the Metal domain, from FRCS. I'd forgotten about this one until I was browsing through my old threads recently.

"Free Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with your choice of hammer."

Assuming the DM reads that as free feats in each case, there's your EWP and Weapon Focus in, say, Goliath Greathammer, which you then switch via Aptitude weapons or Warblade Aptitude to a different exotic weapon. No need to take the War or Revered Ancestor domains, you get the best features of both in one domain, which frees up the other for a different one. Could pick up the Time domain for Improved Initiative, so you don't have to buy Bracers of Blinding Strike.

Unfortunately, Spell Compendium updated the domain power so it's only martial weapon proficiency and weapon focus in light hammer or warhammer.

Elves
2021-06-02, 01:46 PM
That's unfortunate, but thanks for looking for ways to make this better. Iaijutsu master 5 deserves more attention for the huge damage boost it can provide (for this build, before +cha spells, it's the equivalent of +46d6 SA that doesn't have the immunity problem of precision damage).

While I think the use of shadow blend is thematic for a shadow pouncer, the main gain for this build would probably be a better means of constant total concealment that isn't permeable to true seeing. That would open up 6 class levels. Of course, a lot could be done through UMD persistomancy with wand grips and the like, but that gets expensive and item reliance should be minimized.

Saintheart
2021-06-02, 07:45 PM
Well, I did find one minor one: put the Focus weapon quality on a katana (OA) and then just carry the katana around. +640gp quality, adds a +4 insight bonus to Iaijutsu Focus checks specifically while you're carrying it, even when the weapon's sheathed. (NB: If you’re using the sorta-update to OA that happened in Dragon 318, they pumped the price of this up to +2,400 gp, but at least still left it a flat gp increase.) And since the check is for Iaijutsu Focus specifically, it doesn't clash with any insight bonus to attack and damage from Knowledge Devotion or similar. If you've got Divine Insight that obviously overshadows it, but anyway.

Anthrowhale
2021-06-02, 09:23 PM
Weapon Shift actually changes the weapon, so you can't use the free sheathing while the weapon is not a quickrazor.

Earth Hammer is a somewhat more expensive spell which avoids this drawback.

Elves
2021-06-02, 09:36 PM
Well, I did find one minor one: put the Focus weapon quality on a katana (OA) and then just carry the katana around.
That removes the need for a custom IF item, which is good since custom items aren't strict RAW. Brings the check to 47 (23 ranks + 18 cha + 2 mwk tool + 4 insight), you need 49 but Cha boosters can do the rest.


Weapon Shift actually changes the weapon, so you can't use the free sheathing while the weapon is not a quickrazor.

Earth Hammer is a somewhat more expensive spell which avoids this drawback.
As came up in a recent thread, I had a misconception about the text of mighty wallop. Just haven't updated it. Earth hammer looks interesting and could be wanded as a paladin spell but the cost of persisting it is unlikely to be worth it since the damage boost is small.

Saintheart
2021-06-02, 09:46 PM
While I think the use of shadow blend is thematic for a shadow pouncer, the main gain for this build would probably be a better means of constant total concealment that isn't permeable to true seeing. That would open up 6 class levels. Of course, a lot could be done through UMD persistomancy with wand grips and the like, but that gets expensive and item reliance should be minimized.

Some unorganised thoughts:

- The SRD description for True Seeing says explicitly that True Seeing "does not negate concealment". Don't know if that helps.

- Cheese, but Mind Blank on RAW defeats True Seeing. True Seeing is a Divination spell. Mind Blank defeats divination spells which gather information. Similar argument for Nondetection at a lower level but a lot cheesier since it's close to RAW that Nondetection only works on certain spells mentioned in the entry, of which True Seeing is not one.

- Dust of Disappearance by RAW defeats True Seeing: "Normal vision can’t see dusted creatures or objects, nor can they be detected by magical means, including see invisibility or invisibility purge." Expensive at 3,500 gp for only 2d6 rounds, though.

- Runes out of the FRCS don't require UMD and can be built in a use-per-day form. A touch-activated, 1/day rune of Mind Blank constructed by an Ur-Priest Runecaster would cost 8 [Protection spell level] x 8 [Ur-Priest Caster Level] x 400 [One use per day rune cost] = 25,600 gp. Mind Blank lasts 24 hours so you only need to use the spell once per day, albeit Dispel Magic against you becomes a problem. 4/day uses to mitigate the Dispel risk would be 102,400 gp.

Elves
2021-06-04, 02:03 AM
Was pointed out in the other thread that you can get shadow blend from the shadow template (+2). Losing +4 Cha from half fey is unfortunate but saving 6 class levels beats it out.

This recommends the RKV build above.
I'd also like to take a look at a cursed sword build instead of quickrazors.

If going RKV you do have to figure out the move action teleports.

Aceon
2023-01-19, 08:24 PM
Sorry for the thread necromancy here but after so many years I didn't know people were still talking about these things! I had a lot of interest in a playable version of Iaijutsu Master and looked into several of your key premises from time to time over many years. I don't know if you are aware of this but both White Raven Tactics & Ruby Knight Vindicator got hit with the nerf stick pretty hard by WOTC many years ago!

WOTC ruled: You can't benefit from your own WRT. I know you are your own "ally" but they nerfed it directly. However, that doesn't mean your friends in your party might not use their WRT maneuver on YOU or vice-versa. Heck, just 2 players in the party could WRT each other quite a bit!

Also RKV got nerfed. You can use it on yourself, but only once per round.

The last part is your multi-shadow pouncing. This one I thought about and discarded, mostly because I thought it was inelegant but also because I could never fit it in my build. I don't recall if it was ever nerfed but I think it is likely.

Darg
2023-01-19, 08:43 PM
Sorry for the thread necromancy here but after so many years I didn't know people were still talking about these things! I had a lot of interest in a playable version of Iaijutsu Master and looked into several of your key premises from time to time over many years. I don't know if you are aware of this but both White Raven Tactics & Ruby Knight Vindicator got hit with the nerf stick pretty hard by WOTC many years ago!

WOTC ruled: You can't benefit from your own WRT. I know you are your own "ally" but they nerfed it directly. However, that doesn't mean your friends in your party might not use their WRT maneuver on YOU or vice-versa. Heck, just 2 players in the party could WRT each other quite a bit!

Also RKV got nerfed. You can use it on yourself, but only once per round.

The last part is your multi-shadow pouncing. This one I thought about and discarded, mostly because I thought it was inelegant but also because I could never fit it in my build. I don't recall if it was ever nerfed but I think it is likely.

{Scrubbed}

truemane
2023-01-23, 09:02 AM
Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromancy.