Schools in opposition

[PhoenixPhyre]

Consider the 8 schools of magic. If you had to place them at the vertexes of an octagon, such that they formed opposed pairs, which ones would you set in opposition?

Earlier editions had banned schools, but often had 1 school banning several others, and I don't want that. I want a 1:1 relationship, such that if you chose two schools that weren't already opposed, you'd have exactly two chosen and two opposed.

One possible pairing:

Illusion <--> Divination : one hides, the other reveals
Abjuration <--> Transmutation : one changes, the other prevents change (although I could see it opposing Enchantment)
Evocation <--> Necromancy : Now that healing spells are evocations, one brings forth positive energy, the other brings forth negative energy
Conjuration <--> Enchantment : One brings forth matter, the other messes with the mind (?)

[Amdy_vill]

this was actually a feature in older editions they did it like this

necromancy/illustion
transmutation/abjeration
enchantment/evocation
divination/conjeration

[PhoenixPhyre]

this was actually a feature in older editions they did it like this

necromancy/illustion
transmutation/abjeration
enchantment/evocation
divination/conjeration

Yes, but I struggle to see the thematic meaning behind those pairings. I'm most interested in why they're paired. But I don't have those old books, so I can't really go looking myself. And the schools have shifted meaningfully (IMO) since then--healing is no longer necromancy (among other things).

[Nagog]

I think the struggle with this is that none of them have solid definitions anymore. Evocation used to be the big damage spells and those alone: Healing was Conjuration, as it was bringing in positive energy from a higher plane: but it also could be Transmutation in that it transforms the target into a previous, healthier, version of itself, or perhaps Necromancy in that it bolsters and restores the body and soul. I guess this boils down to whether the Schools are definitions assigned by those who study magic or if there are fundamental differences in how the spells work that set it into one school or another.

[Nifft]

Illusion <--> Divination : one hides, the other reveals This makes perfect sense to me.


Abjuration <--> Transmutation : one changes, the other prevents change (although I could see it opposing Enchantment)
Evocation <--> Necromancy : Now that healing spells are evocations, one brings forth positive energy, the other brings forth negative energy
Conjuration <--> Enchantment : One brings forth matter, the other messes with the mind (?)

Not really sure about these. My thoughts:

Enchantment <--> Transmutation : Change minds vs. change bodies.

Conjuration <--> Abjuration : Summon vs. banish (also literally the words).

Necromancy <--> Evocation : Entropy vs. energy.

[Amdy_vill]

Yes, but I struggle to see the thematic meaning behind those pairings. I'm most interested in why they're paired. But I don't have those old books, so I can't really go looking myself. And the schools have shifted meaningfully (IMO) since then--healing is no longer necromancy (among other things).

they haven't changed all that much, while some healing spells have moved from necromancy to evocation their has always been healing in evocation. but more on to why they were paired this way.

necromancy/illusion: both of these schools have a focus on trickery, utility spells involving the senses, and mental and physical abnormalities, like giving people head aces or making them sick.

transmutation/abjuration both focus on changing the properties of an object, transmutation physically changes the object where abjuration creates magical constructs around the object.

enchantment/evocation: both focus on the manipulation of energy with enchantment focusing on imbuing energy into things and evocation focusing on releasing energy

divination/conjuration: both involved contacting other plains, divination specializes in using the plains to gain information where conujeration uses it to clip throu the level and summon creatures.

[KorvinStarmast]

Illusion <--> Divination : one hides, the other reveals

Enchantment <--> Transmutation : Change minds vs. change bodies.

Conjuration <--> Abjuration : Summon vs. banish (also literally the words).

Necromancy <--> Evocation : Entropy vs. energy. *golf clap*

I need to sketch out PP's octagon and see who is adjacent to whom with your answer folded in. :smallcool:

Here is what I came up with.

______________________Divination

____________Abjuration____________Transmutation

Necromancy____________________________________Evoc ation

____________Enchantment__________Conjuration

________________________Illusion

[PhoenixPhyre]

This makes perfect sense to me.



Not really sure about these. My thoughts:

Enchantment <--> Transmutation : Change minds vs. change bodies.

Conjuration <--> Abjuration : Summon vs. banish (also literally the words).

Necromancy <--> Evocation : Entropy vs. energy.

The last one is one I had, just for a different reason. But PR accepted for the rest. I like them. :smallwink:

[MoiMagnus]

Consider the 8 schools of magic. If you had to place them at the vertexes of an octagon

In an octagon, you can see two squares (the odd vertices and the even ones). So we can split the school in two group of four. I can see the following split:

(1) Material Schools, dealing with matter and energy:
Necromancy (negative energy) VS Evocation (positive energy)
Transmutation (local matter) VS Conjuration (foreign matter)

(2) Immaterial Schools, dealing with information and mind:
Illusion (faking information) VS Divination (finding information)
Enchantment (magic breaking someone's mind) VS Abjuration (mind breaking someone's magic)

But I know it's far from perfect.

[Nifft]

The last one is one I had, just for a different reason. But PR accepted for the rest. I like them. :smallwink:

Oh good point, I had seen the "healing spells" reason and instinctively disagreed with the reas (since I remember when healing was in Necromancy, it's not justified to me that healing should oppose Necromancy) -- but you're right, we do agree about the schools, even if our reasons are different.

[UnintensifiedFa]

*golf clap*

I need to sketch out PP's octagon and see who is adjacent to whom with your answer folded in. :smallcool:

Here is what I came up with.

______________________Divination

____________Abjuration____________Transmutation

Necromancy____________________________________Evoc ation

____________Enchantment__________Conjuration

________________________Illusion

Almost feels like an alignment chart. Necromancy->Evocation feels like Evil->Good, and Divination <-> Illusion has a very Lawful/Chaotic Energy... Idk how well it holds up but it feels right at a glance.

[KorvinStarmast]

Almost feels like an alignment chart. Necromancy->Evocation feels like Evil->Good, and Divination <-> Illusion has a very Lawful/Chaotic Energy... Idk how well it holds up but it feels right at a glance. Of all of the things I wanted to do, making an alignment chart look-alike was seriously not my desire. :smalleek: I may be able to draw an octagon later and import a jpeg with an 8 piece of pie look to it, but at the moment I have something rather pressing. Back in a bit.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Of all of the things I wanted to do, making an alignment chart look-alike was seriously not my desire. :smalleek: I may be able to draw an octagon later and import a jpeg with an 8 piece of pie look to it, but at the moment I have something rather pressing. Back in a bit.

I actually have an octagon with connections, I just need to re-order the labels. But that will be after work, as that's on my personal computer.

[Sigreid]

Consider the 8 schools of magic. If you had to place them at the vertexes of an octagon, such that they formed opposed pairs, which ones would you set in opposition?

Earlier editions had banned schools, but often had 1 school banning several others, and I don't want that. I want a 1:1 relationship, such that if you chose two schools that weren't already opposed, you'd have exactly two chosen and two opposed.

One possible pairing:

Illusion <--> Divination : one hides, the other reveals
Abjuration <--> Transmutation : one changes, the other prevents change (although I could see it opposing Enchantment)
Evocation <--> Necromancy : Now that healing spells are evocations, one brings forth positive energy, the other brings forth negative energy
Conjuration <--> Enchantment : One brings forth matter, the other messes with the mind (?)

I would pair them this way:

Illusiong <--> Transmutation: one creates fantasy the other deals in hard, cold reality.
Abjuration <--> Evocation: Protection vs. Destruction (yes, I'm aware they do other things
Conjuration <--> Necromancy One reaches to the other planes, the other binds things to this plane beyond their time
Divinition <--> Enchantment: One is seeing the truth of how things are, the other is shaping and obscuring the perception of the truth.

[Nifft]

Here is what I came up with.

______________________Divination

____________Abjuration____________Transmutation

Necromancy____________________________________Evoc ation

____________Enchantment__________Conjuration

________________________Illusion

I like this, perhaps with a few tweaks. Here's my thinking:
- Enchantment, Divination, and Abjuration are all "quiet" schools -- they have many spells with no visible effect
- Transmutation, Illusion, and Evocation are all "loud" schools -- they tend to have blatant, obvious effects
- Conjuration, Necromancy, and Enchantment are "commanding" schools -- they give you control of others
- Divination, Necromancy, and Conjuration are all "informative" schools -- they contact other planes for answers
- Transmutation, Conjuration, and Evocation are all "energetic" schools -- they allow you to throw energy at people
- Necromancy and Abjuration are "dissipational" schools -- they allow you to decrease or disperse energy
- Illusion, Enchantment, and Divination feel "mental"
- Necromancy, Transmutation, and Conjuration feel "physical"
- Abjuration and Evocation span the physical/mental bridge: Evocation has Contingency and Force effects; Abjuration protects body and mind

It'd be cool if the schools could be grouped by some (or all) of those traits.

[HPisBS]

In an octagon, you can see two squares (the odd vertices and the even ones). So we can split the school in two group of four. I can see the following split:

(1) Material Schools, dealing with matter and energy:
Necromancy (negative energy) VS Evocation (positive energy)
Transmutation (local matter) VS Conjuration (foreign matter)

(2) Immaterial Schools, dealing with information and mind:
Illusion (faking information) VS Divination (finding information)
Enchantment (magic breaking someone's mind) VS Abjuration (mind breaking someone's magic)

But I know it's far from perfect.

This one makes the most sense to me so far. The others all elicit at least one major "Yeah, but __."

So, if we combine the three categories of physical vs immaterial, positive vs negative, and local vs foreign, it'd look something like:

https://i.imgur.com/Pqx0I9f.png

Edit: There's still some "yeah, buts," like how abjuration defends against evocation, or how necromancy is rather foreign, but... meh. These schools and their categories are all so abstract that no classification system like this can ever be perfect.

[KorvinStarmast]

I like this, perhaps with a few tweaks. Here's my thinking:
- Enchantment, Divination, and Abjuration are all "quiet" schools -- they have many spells with no visible effect
- Transmutation, Illusion, and Evocation are all "loud" schools -- they tend to have blatant, obvious effects
- Conjuration, Necromancy, and Enchantment are "commanding" schools -- they give you control of others
- Divination, Necromancy, and Conjuration are all "informative" schools -- they contact other planes for answers
- Transmutation, Conjuration, and Evocation are all "energetic" schools -- they allow you to throw energy at people
- Necromancy and Abjuration are "dissipational" schools -- they allow you to decrease or disperse energy
- Illusion, Enchantment, and Divination feel "mental"
- Necromancy, Transmutation, and Conjuration feel "physical"
- Abjuration and Evocation span the physical/mental bridge: Evocation has Contingency and Force effects; Abjuration protects body and mind

It'd be cool if the schools could be grouped by some (or all) of those traits.
Love your thoughts on this, nice conceptual framing. My attempt at juxtapositions was constrained by "make it fit the 8 vertices of an octagon" :smallbiggrin: There were only so many places to put opposed schools and then try to fit it into a 'not so great wheel' model. :smallcool:

[PhoenixPhyre]

Current octagonal depiction, using the "two squares" model above:

https://admiralbenbo.org/images/misc/schools_of_magic.png

[Rafaelfras]

This one is from second edition AD&D

https://i.stack.imgur.com/iu6hi.jpg


I remember reading through PHB the explanation I guess...

Edit: Found the original picture

[PhoenixPhyre]

This one is from second edition AD&D

http://people.wku.edu/charles.plemons/graphics/mageschools.gif

Yes, but the important thing is why. Which is what I've never seen written down. Tradition is less important than making sense right now, with 5e's schools.

[Rafaelfras]

Yes, but the important thing is why. Which is what I've never seen written down. Tradition is less important than making sense right now, with 5e's schools.

Yes, it seems it was for balance reasons. the text says:

"Specialist wizards have advantages and disadvantages when compared to mages. Their chance to know spells of their school of magic is greatly increased, but the intensive study results in a smaller chance to know spells outside their school. The number of spells they can cast increases, but they lose the ability to cast spells of the school in opposition to their specialty (opposite it in the diagram).

Opposition School(s) always includes the school directly opposite the character’s school of study in the diagram. In addition, the schools to either side of this one may also be disallowed due to the nature of the character’s school. For example, an invoker cannot learn enchantment/charm or conjuration/summoning spells and cannot use magical items that duplicate spells from these schools."

I think the bits of info as to why they are that way are from articles or people trying to make a logical argument for that (its been 20 years)

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She knows everything