5e The weakness of the Clockwork Soul

[BerzerkerUnit]

As I sat down to create a Clockwork Soul Sorcerer I thought "I've heard a lot about how powerful they can be, I wonder if there's something we're all missing..."

It's Manifestations of Order. It does say you have the option of choosing, however at least 66% of the options are an automatic tell that you're casting a spell. That rises ~82% when if the spell requires a focus and RAW this is even if you use Subtle Spell.

Drawing a hardline on the rules for this subclass, the Clockwork Soul, which is still AMAZING by any metric, is also functionally hamstrung in RP encounters unless they have spells from another source (items, MC, feat, lineage, etc).

So there are a handful of ways to try and work around it, but some of your most basic RP buffs let everyone that can see you know something Magic is happening.

Now, I've played Exalted and my it fundamentally altered my opinion of how fantasy diplomacy works. In that game, characters could supernaturally augment their Charisma, Presence, and Manipulation to sway hearts and minds. It was like a single speech carried the weight of a decade long propaganda blitz, or single snarky comment had the power to erode selfesteem like 100 pages of a youtube comment section. With that in mind it explained why every leader either is a powerful caster or wants one by their side or why a lot of places end up xenophobic and distrustful of magic. Basically, if you're choosing to show up, then you should know everyone is pulling every dirty trick. Suggestion, Charm Person, even Dominate are all on the table and you either have someone that can counter and dispel, or you expect to get rolled.

So maybe it's not as crippling in some games, but I think the default assumptions would make this a massive achilles heel in RP centric play.

Thanks for reading. Matt Conlon, I have a ton of stuff on DM's Guild, you can look my stuff up there by name.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Do most of your RP encounters involve casting spells? Because as we've seen, that's a...risky proposition at many tables. And "not being able to subtle-cast"=="actively hamstrung in social encounters" means that, well, everyone except for sorcerers with subtle spell are hamstrung. You might want to reconsider your assumptions here.

[Chronic]

There is nothing that say that subtle doesn't suppress the manifestation of order, by raw it should works.

[JackPhoenix]

There is nothing that say that subtle doesn't suppress the manifestation of order, by raw it should works.

That's because there's no interaction between Subtle spell and the manifestation. Subtle spell removes S and M component, but it doesn't do anything else. It won't turn your Fireball invisible either, why would it hide the manifestation?

[Sigreid]

I don't think there is, or should be anything wrong with casting spells on your self to help with diplomacy. The way I see it, casting a spell on yourself that boosts your charisma is really just an equivalent to proper grooming, impressive clothes and having a team help you get your words right. Casting spells on others is more the equivalent of rufieing your target audience and then acting as though their agreement matters.

[MoiMagnus]

That's because there's no interaction between Subtle spell and the manifestation. Subtle spell removes S and M component, but it doesn't do anything else.

Yes, the manifestation is not linked to spell components, and subtle only affect S and V spell components.

IMO, the core rules should have an additional spell component, "Aura" (or a better name), for every spell which has some visual effect around you while you cast it. Manifestation of order should have "every sorcerer spell you cast has the Aura component if it doesn't already have it" and subtle casting should also hide this Aura component.

But all of that is of the domain of houserule, clearly not RAW.

[Chronic]

That's because there's no interaction between Subtle spell and the manifestation. Subtle spell removes S and M component, but it doesn't do anything else. It won't turn your Fireball invisible either, why would it hide the manifestation?

It's explained at length in xanatar that spells under the effect of subtle do not generate any clue that could link the possibly visible spell effect to the caster. So subtle works.

[MaxWilson]

It's explained at length in xanatar that spells under the effect of subtle do not generate any clue that could link the possibly visible spell effect to the caster. So subtle works.

This is wrong. Xanathars talks about (an optional rule for) spells with no components, but Subtle removes only V and S components. E.g. Subtle Detect Thoughts is detectable by Xanathar's RAW because it's an M component spell, ditto Subtle Suggestion. And BTW spells like Fireball have an additional tell--everyone can see that you're the source of the spell.

Manifestations of Order has an option which temporarily transforms your spell focus into clockwork. You can take that one and be just a subtle as any other sorcerer* in your spellcasting, which is to say that you can (by Xanathar's optional rule) cast V- and S-only spells like Crown of Madness without being noticed.

*Except Aberrant Mind.

[Valmark]

As I sat down to create a Clockwork Soul Sorcerer I thought "I've heard a lot about how powerful they can be, I wonder if there's something we're all missing..."

It's Manifestations of Order. It does say you have the option of choosing, however at least 66% of the options are an automatic tell that you're casting a spell. That rises ~82% when if the spell requires a focus and RAW this is even if you use Subtle Spell.

Drawing a hardline on the rules for this subclass, the Clockwork Soul, which is still AMAZING by any metric, is also functionally hamstrung in RP encounters unless they have spells from another source (items, MC, feat, lineage, etc).

So there are a handful of ways to try and work around it, but some of your most basic RP buffs let everyone that can see you know something Magic is happening.

Now, I've played Exalted and my it fundamentally altered my opinion of how fantasy diplomacy works. In that game, characters could supernaturally augment their Charisma, Presence, and Manipulation to sway hearts and minds. It was like a single speech carried the weight of a decade long propaganda blitz, or single snarky comment had the power to erode selfesteem like 100 pages of a youtube comment section. With that in mind it explained why every leader either is a powerful caster or wants one by their side or why a lot of places end up xenophobic and distrustful of magic. Basically, if you're choosing to show up, then you should know everyone is pulling every dirty trick. Suggestion, Charm Person, even Dominate are all on the table and you either have someone that can counter and dispel, or you expect to get rolled.

So maybe it's not as crippling in some games, but I think the default assumptions would make this a massive achilles heel in RP centric play.

Thanks for reading. Matt Conlon, I have a ton of stuff on DM's Guild, you can look my stuff up there by name.

...I'm not sure I follow.

Like you said, you can just choose an option that doesn't force you to be discovered... So why is it a weakness? You are 'hamstrung' only if you want to be.

Regardless of the fact that if that was an achilles' heel in RP centric play then sorcerers are still better then most other classes if only because they're Cha-based (so likely have higher charisma).

[Unoriginal]

I don't understand what exactly OP considers to be a weakness.



It's explained at length in xanatar that spells under the effect of subtle do not generate any clue that could link the possibly visible spell effect to the caster. So subtle works.

Untrue. The Xanathar's talks about spells that have no percievable effects, and spells that do have percievable effects.

If you Subbtle a spell with no material component that also has no percievable effect, then neither the casting nor the spell are percievable, but Subbtle Spell does *not* remove percievable effects, only V and S components.

[heavyfuel]

As I sat down to create a Clockwork Soul Sorcerer I thought "I've heard a lot about how powerful they can be, I wonder if there's something we're all missing..."

It's Manifestations of Order. It does say you have the option of choosing, however at least 66% of the options are an automatic tell that you're casting a spell. That rises ~82% when if the spell requires a focus and RAW this is even if you use Subtle Spell.

Good catch! Might be a minor downside to some (most?) Clockwork Sorcerers, but does keep them out of the "manipulator" niche.


Do most of your RP encounters involve casting spells? Because as we've seen, that's a...risky proposition at many tables. And "not being able to subtle-cast"=="actively hamstrung in social encounters" means that, well, everyone except for sorcerers with subtle spell are hamstrung. You might want to reconsider your assumptions here.

I think OP means "humstrung when compared to other Sorcerers". While not every social interaction will require spellcasting, it's a nice ace for Sorcerers to have up their sleeves.

[sophontteks]

I think they've encouraged spellcasting effects for most the sorcerer subclasses, but I've never seen it strictly enforced as an actual flaw. They intended it to give your character more flavor for RP.


This is wrong. Xanathars talks about (an optional rule for) spells with no components, but Subtle removes only V and S components. E.g. Subtle Detect Thoughts is detectable by Xanathar's RAW because it's an M component spell, ditto Subtle Suggestion. And BTW spells like Fireball have an additional tell--everyone can see that you're the source of the spell.

Manifestations of Order has an option which temporarily transforms your spell focus into clockwork. You can take that one and be just a subtle as any other sorcerer* in your spellcasting, which is to say that you can (by Xanathar's optional rule) cast V- and S-only spells like Crown of Madness without being noticed.

*Except Aberrant Mind.
Xanthars is weird. I don't think they did a great job clarifying something no one asked to be clarified.

First perceptable...
Xanthars says the M component is "perceptible" but how perceptible the M component is should be taken on a case by case basis. In most cases the answer is somewhere between "Not very perceptible." to "nearly impossible to notice."

All they are saying is simply, if you are using Material components then the spell is NOT imperceptible.

All the spellcasting components can be hidden, but of the three material is by far the easiest to hide. It's hardly even an inconvenience in most cases.

And the really weird line...
"If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, its normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence"

But a fireball originates from your freaking finger, so that definitely qualifies as other evidence. I think they just mean that, even if the spell did something that people notice, unless there is some form of component, it's be impossible to determine who did it.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The weakness is... well, they aren't really good at anything. Dragon sorc: tough and good at blasting. Shadow sorc: good at creating and fighting in darkness and has an awesome hound.

Clockwork: Restore balance is an ok feature usable a couple of times per day that has to be declared before the roll, which is always worse and may do nothing. Bastion of Law would be OK if you didn't have to spend Sorcery points on it, but it competes with and is generally worse than any metamagic, so it's unlikely to get a lot of use. Basically you get a bunch of spells; who cares? Congratulations, you are now a bad wizard.

[Merudo]

t's Manifestations of Order. It does say you have the option of choosing, however at least 66% of the options are an automatic tell that you're casting a spell. That rises ~82% when if the spell requires a focus and RAW this is even if you use Subtle Spell.


What are the 1-2 options that are not automatic tells?

The one where the spellcasting focus transforms into a clockwork seems pretty stealthy if you keep said focus inside one of your pockets.

[sophontteks]

What are the 1-2 options that are not automatic tells?

The one where the spellcasting focus transforms into a clockwork seems pretty stealthy if you keep said focus inside one of your pockets.
Yep. If this really was being strictly enforced just pick this and use a spell pouch.

[x3n0n]

The weakness is... well, they aren't really good at anything. Dragon sorc: tough and good at blasting. Shadow sorc: good at creating and fighting in darkness and has an awesome hound.

Clockwork: Restore balance is an ok feature usable a couple of times per day that has to be declared before the roll, which is always worse and may do nothing. Bastion of Law would be OK if you didn't have to spend Sorcery points on it, but it competes with and is generally worse than any metamagic, so it's unlikely to get a lot of use. Basically you get a bunch of spells; who cares? Congratulations, you are now a bad wizard.

That seems a little unfair, given that they get full access to 2 schools of the Wizard and Warlock spell list that can be subbed in for some of extra spells, including some fan favorites like Armor of Agathys (to pair with Bastion of Law) and Wall of Force, while still having the Sorcerer abilities like metamagic.

For example, the "Hobgoblin Steel Sorcerer" (admitted "Iron Wizard ripoff") in the Fun and Effective Builds thread has some combos that aren't easily available elsewhere: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24842773&postcount=788

I do agree that the subclass isn't super flavorful without customizing your additional spells, unlike Dragon, Shadow, Divine Soul, and Aberrant Mind.

[heavyfuel]

Yep. If this really was being strictly enforced just pick this and use a spell pouch.

"Ah yes, let me dig around this spell component pouch looking for the appropriate material stealthly" I'm sure a DM that is enforcing Manifestations of Order to impede you from concealed spellcasting will have no problems with that.

[Merudo]

The weakness is... well, they aren't really good at anything. Dragon sorc: tough and good at blasting. Shadow sorc: good at creating and fighting in darkness and has an awesome hound.

Clockwork: Restore balance is an ok feature usable a couple of times per day that has to be declared before the roll, which is always worse and may do nothing. Bastion of Law would be OK if you didn't have to spend Sorcery points on it, but it competes with and is generally worse than any metamagic, so it's unlikely to get a lot of use. Basically you get a bunch of spells; who cares? Congratulations, you are now a bad wizard.

It's not a bad Wizard if you can cast Armor of Agathys, Aid, and can Twin buffs...

[sophontteks]

"Ah yes, let me dig around this spell component pouch looking for the appropriate material stealthly" I'm sure a DM that is enforcing Manifestations of Order to impede you from concealed spellcasting will have no problems with that.
I have no idea what you mean. This completely removes the "manifestations of order."

The point is to avoid using arcane focuses to remove manifestations of order. I'm confused how digging through a pouch is insurmountably obvious. Why don't you just grab the component you need ahead of time if you are so worried?

I mostly use phantasmal force, which requires me to hold "a bit of fleece" I'm wearing fleece. If I wasn't I could just have a bit of fleece in my hand. The spell pouch simply gives you access to the material components without you explicitly buying each one.

[stoutstien]

The weakness is... well, they aren't really good at anything. Dragon sorc: tough and good at blasting. Shadow sorc: good at creating and fighting in darkness and has an awesome hound.

Clockwork: Restore balance is an ok feature usable a couple of times per day that has to be declared before the roll, which is always worse and may do nothing. Bastion of Law would be OK if you didn't have to spend Sorcery points on it, but it competes with and is generally worse than any metamagic, so it's unlikely to get a lot of use. Basically you get a bunch of spells; who cares? Congratulations, you are now a bad wizard.

BoL is still pretty powerful because it stacks with every other source of mitigation and lasts a very long time. Wording is also in favor of knowing the value of damage before you choose to reduce it which means it's impossible to waste it. Combining it with balance is a good kit for being a support caster that doesn't need spells to provide support.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

BoL is still pretty powerful because it stacks with every other source of mitigation and lasts a very long time. Wording is also in favor of knowing the value of damage before you choose to reduce it which means it's impossible to waste it. Combining it with balance is a good kit for being a support caster that doesn't need spells to provide support.

The duration is fine, but that really incentivizes you to use it early in the day and commit. I'm struggling to find a situation where I'd value my metamagic low enough that a 4.5 hp damage reduction is worth 1 SP. I mean that's equal to one use of Subtle, which is invaluable, or Empower, which I believe is worth roughly 6 pts of damage per target on a Fireball. 4 SP give you 18 hp, which is the equivalent of Twinning Polymorph; this is in my mind a good comparison, as it buffs a party member.

[stoutstien]

The duration is fine, but that really incentivizes you to use it early in the day and commit. I'm struggling to find a situation where I'd value my metamagic low enough that a 4.5 hp damage reduction is worth 1 SP. I mean that's equal to one use of Subtle, which is invaluable, or Empower, which I believe is worth roughly 6 pts of damage per target on a Fireball. 4 SP give you 18 hp, which is the equivalent of Twinning Polymorph; this is in my mind a good comparison, as it buffs a party member.

It works with THP. So AoA cheese is pretty nasty.

[ew_of_chiswick]

I don't think there is, or should be anything wrong with casting spells on your self to help with diplomacy. The way I see it, casting a spell on yourself that boosts your charisma is really just an equivalent to proper grooming, impressive clothes and having a team help you get your words right. Casting spells on others is more the equivalent of rufieing your target audience and then acting as though their agreement matters.
I like the comparison of casting on yourself to be like "dressing up", so to speak. I think that's a useful to imagine how NPC's would react, too. For something like guidance (which had a recent mega-thread), if you cast it beforehand, it's like making sure your hair is combed, your clothes are pressed, and your breath is fresh. But if you cast it mid-interaction, the NPC would react similarly to if you decided to start combing your hair, changing your clothes, or brushing your teeth right then - if they're already sort of favorable to you, they'll probably think little of it; but if they are wary of you, it won't necessarily help the situation.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It's not a bad Wizard if you can cast Armor of Agathys, Aid, and can Twin buffs...

Fair point. My last line was (somewhat deliberately) provocative. Should probably read "... mediocre wizard without rituals".
Basically when I look at the Clockwork it seems like the designers responded to the criticisms of the Sorc class and tried to implement a 'fix' that brought this sub-class close to, but not quite at a Wizard, rather than creating something particularly unique or interesting that was more in line with the other Sorc subclasses. I just don't know why I'd play one. If I wanted to play a Sorc I'd play Draconic, Shadow, or DS; if I wanted to play a Wizard, I'd play a Wizard.

[Merudo]

Fair point. My last line was (somewhat deliberately) provocative. Should probably read "... mediocre wizard without rituals".
Basically when I look at the Clockwork it seems like the designers responded to the criticisms of the Sorc class and tried to implement a 'fix' that brought this sub-class close to, but not quite at a Wizard, rather than creating something particularly unique or interesting that was more in line with the other Sorc subclasses. I just don't know why I'd play one. If I wanted to play a Sorc I'd play Draconic, Shadow, or DS; if I wanted to play a Wizard, I'd play a Wizard.

See, last game I played a Wizard. I liked the character very much, but each time I would cast Polymorph or Improved Invisibility, I couldn't help but think - if only I were a Sorcerer, I could twin it and be twice as effective with my concentration...

With Clockwork Soul, I get the flexibility of the Wizard, together with the capacity to Twin spells. I do miss on rituals, but honestly, the only one I really miss is Phantom Steed.

[Osuniev]

"Ah yes, let me dig around this spell component pouch looking for the appropriate material stealthly" I'm sure a DM that is enforcing Manifestations of Order to impede you from concealed spellcasting will have no problems with that.


I'm such a DM, and honestly I would probably agree depending on context (and the target's knowledge of magic). It's also easy to have someone else distract the target.
My concern when I enforce components as a DM (ie all the time) is not to make it impossible to cast stealthily, but to maintain the flavour and the fiction of how we cast spells. I don't allow whispering V components, but I do allow someone else making a loud noise to hide it, or the bard starting some sort of song in a foreign language in the hope the incantation will pass unnoticed amng the lyrics...

If the PC find a smart, coherent way to overcome the limitations of magic, I applaud. I feel like it's earned. I don't like handwaving it.

[ATHATH]

If you use a tiny clockwork device as your focus already, the manifestation that temporarily turns your spellcasting focus into a tiny clockwork object might not be immediately noticeable, especially if your focus is in always in motion.

But yeah, Manifestations of Order applying to ALL of your Sorcerer spells, instead of just the extra ones given to you by the subclass, was indeed news to me when I first read this thread, and it does appear to really impede the ability of Clockwork Soul Sorcerers to gain most of the benefits of using the Subtle Spell metamagic.

[heavyfuel]

I have no idea what you mean. This completely removes the "manifestations of order."

The point is to avoid using arcane focuses to remove manifestations of order.

That's not really the point. The point is that CS cannot cast stealthly because MoO would give away your spellcasting and Subtle Spell only removes V and S components.

Which means you can no longer cast Subtle enchament spells covertly and you can still be counterspelled because the enemy will still know you are casting.

[micahaphone]

Clock hands appearing in your eyes wouldn't be noticeable unless you're pretty close to the caster and making eye contact. And in that case, sunglasses.

Skin glowing a brassy sheen could be unnoticeable depending on the character, like a coppery dragonborn or a tan skinned humanoid who's sweating.

I'll admit I'm not sure if we're supposed to interpret "Floating equations and geometric objects overlay your body" as appearing on your skin like migrating tattoos (easy to hide with clothing/armor) or if it's more like the "spectral cogwheels hover behind you" option where they float in the air.

[sophontteks]

That's not really the point. The point is that CS cannot cast stealthly because MoO would give away your spellcasting and Subtle Spell only removes V and S components.

Which means you can no longer cast Subtle enchament spells covertly and you can still be counterspelled because the enemy will still know you are casting.
If you pick the one that makes your focus change, and opt not to use a focus anyway, then it does not give you away at all.

A focus is much more obvious then most material components and a wise sorcerer would just have the needed component on hand.

My fav. Subtle spell "Phantasmal force" only requires a bit of fleece.

[Chronic]

"The form of a material component doesn't matter for the purposes of perception, whether it's an object specified in the spell's description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus. If the need for a spell's components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it's normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."

I mean it's pretty clear, a spell casted with subtle who doesn't involve material component, makes the casting imperceptible, even if it as a visible effect, such has the tells caused by manifestation of order. You could, by RAW, be a clockwork soul sorcerer with glowing marks casting a scorching ray in a room full of spectators with mundane means of perception and NO ONE would realise it originated from you.

[heavyfuel]

A focus is much more obvious then most material components and a wise sorcerer would just have the needed component on hand.

What kind of argument is that? You just rolled initiative and you somehow have fleece ready on your hand? Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that one.

[micahaphone]

What kind of argument is that? You just rolled initiative and you somehow have fleece ready on your hand? Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that one.

Free item interaction to reach into a pocket and pull out a little square of fabric. Besides, I believe this entire thread is more about hiding your casting while in social situations, not in combat.

[heavyfuel]

Free item interaction to reach into a pocket and pull out a little square of fabric. Besides, I believe this entire thread is more about hiding your casting while in social situations, not in combat.

A Barbarian drawing their greataxe is also a free item interaction. Just cuz it's free doesn't mean it's unnoticeable.

Yeah, it's more about social situations, but I don't think too many people are going to be casting Phantasmal Force in a social situation, and if you are talking to someone, I think most people would question why you are holding a snake's tongue for your Suggestion spell.

[Osuniev]

"The form of a material component doesn't matter for the purposes of perception, whether it's an object specified in the spell's description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus. If the need for a spell's components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it's normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."

I mean it's pretty clear, a spell casted with subtle who doesn't involve material component, makes the casting imperceptible, even if it as a visible effect, such has the tells caused by manifestation of order. You could, by RAW, be a clockwork soul sorcerer with glowing marks casting a scorching ray in a room full of spectators with mundane means of perception and NO ONE would realise it originated from you.

I would say the 3 Scorching rays coming from you constitute clear evidence...


You create three rays of fire and hurl them at targets within range. You can hurl them at one target or several.

Many spells describe a visual effect when cast.

[Chronic]

That's not how it works, if the component (V, S,M) of the spell are removed by a feature, then spells with perceptibles effects emanating from you are changed, the effect is still perceptible, but do not originate from you, or betray you in anyways. In the scorching ray example, there is still rays, but they will not emanate from you. How it translate is up to the caster with the DM agreement, but in any way, it will not indicate it came from you.

The reference to others evidence is in case people have unusual means of detection, the prime case being detect magic.

[micahaphone]

A Barbarian drawing their greataxe is also a free item interaction. Just cuz it's free doesn't mean it's unnoticeable.

Yeah, it's more about social situations, but I don't think too many people are going to be casting Phantasmal Force in a social situation, and if you are talking to someone, I think most people would question why you are holding a snake's tongue for your Suggestion spell.

A snake tongue pinched between your thumb and forefinger is nigh unnoticeable unless you're carefully watching the hands of a person trying to talk to you and suspicious about why their fingers are pressed together.

Phantasmal Force doesn't have to be used for damage, it can be used to create all sorts of useful or convenient hallucinations. A guard's commander coming over and telling them to go on break while he watches the door, a king misreads a peace treaty as a boorish insult and call to war, someone sees the castle gates loudly clang down into position when really they stay wide open. And "a bit of fleece" is practically a piece of lint, just holding a strand of wool, same scenario as the snake tongue.

[Osuniev]

That's not how it works, if the component (V, S,M) of the spell are removed by a feature, then spells with perceptibles effects emanating from you are changed, the effect is still perceptible, but do not originate from you, or betray you in anyways. In the scorching ray example, there is still rays, but they will not emanate from you. How it translate is up to the caster with the DM agreement, but in any way, it will not indicate it came from you.


I really cannot picture how it would do that. I see the quote you gave as saying "no-one will know where the Darkness came from", but certainly not "Burning hands will now do a Cone of Fire but that cone will be invisible so they don't know who casted it".

The spell still does what it says it does. And Scorching Rays are still hurled.
Just like when a creature is an innate spellcaster, you might not be sure if they cast the Hypnotic Pattern, but you sure know what's the point of origin of the Cone of Cold.

[Osuniev]

And "a bit of fleece" is practically a piece of lint, just holding a strand of wool, same scenario as the snake tongue.

First thing my gnome asked when she saw that most Illusion spells use wool : "can my character wear a wool-jacket ?" (While yes she can. And she was glad she did during the jailbrak scenario of the campaign start, where they had no other components save for the sand of their cells).

[sophontteks]

A Barbarian drawing their greataxe is also a free item interaction. Just cuz it's free doesn't mean it's unnoticeable.

Yeah, it's more about social situations, but I don't think too many people are going to be casting Phantasmal Force in a social situation, and if you are talking to someone, I think most people would question why you are holding a snake's tongue for your Suggestion spell.

Phantamal Force is almost purely a social spell. Don't get stuck on the damage aspect. That is optional. It's a powerful illusion of your choosing that they will try to justify. The spell os also great for stopping combat counters before they begin.

Suggestion has a seperate verbal aspect (the suggestion itself) that gives you away.

I can't imagine how someone would notice something as miniscule as a snakes tongue or a bit of fleece. These are not greatswords. I feel like you may be picturing a serpents tongue or something rather then the 1 inch by 1 millimeter tongue of a snake.

[Chronic]

I really cannot picture how it would do that. I see the quote you gave as saying "no-one will know where the Darkness came from", but certainly not "Burning hands will now do a Cone of Fire but that cone will be invisible so they don't know who casted it".

The spell still does what it says it does. And Scorching Rays are still hurled.
Just like when a creature is an innate spellcaster, you might not be sure if they cast the Hypnotic Pattern, but you sure know what's the point of origin of the Cone of Cold.

It's not that hard to imagine actually. And I never said it would become invisible, I said it would take a form that would not originate from the caster. A smart pnj might understand where the spell comes from, but it would require a test, probably investigation or intelligence. And it's stretching, by Raw they cannot.
And no, the spell doesn't "do what it says it does" that's the whole point of metamagic.

[MoiMagnus]

Small note:
Thanks to Xanathar, a very similar weakness is available to all sorcerer as an option, with the "Sign of Sorcery" table. They can be fun, but it definitely makes subtle casting more difficult if not impossible.

I've yet to encounter a GM that would make them mandatory, but for manifestation of order to actually be a significant weakness, you also need for the GM to mandate a random roll on this table rather than letting the player chose one of the more subtle ones (like the focus one, which only triggers if you actually use a focus), so that's IMO comparable.

[Unoriginal]

That's not how it works, if the component (V, S,M) of the spell are removed by a feature, then spells with perceptibles effects emanating from you are changed, the effect is still perceptible, but do not originate from you, or betray you in anyways. In the scorching ray example, there is still rays, but they will not emanate from you. How it translate is up to the caster with the DM agreement, but in any way, it will not indicate it came from you.

The reference to others evidence is in case people have unusual means of detection, the prime case being detect magic.

The *casting* is imperceptible, the *effects* aren't.

The rays would still emanate from you.

Innate Spellcasting still emanates from the creature.


It's not that hard to imagine actually. And I never said it would become invisible, I said it would take a form that would not originate from the caster.

There is nothing in the Xanathar's saying or implying that the effect's originating point changes.



A smart pnj might understand where the spell comes from, but it would require a test, probably investigation or intelligence.

Are you a native French speaker, by any chance?


"The form of a material component doesn't matter for the purposes of perception, whether it's an object specified in the spell's description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus. If the need for a spell's components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it's normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."

I mean it's pretty clear, a spell casted with subtle who doesn't involve material component, makes the casting imperceptible, even if it as a visible effect, such has the tells caused by manifestation of order. You could, by RAW, be a clockwork soul sorcerer with glowing marks casting a scorching ray in a room full of spectators with mundane means of perception and NO ONE would realise it originated from you.

"Rays coming from you" is not "the absence of other evidence".


A Subtle Spelled Telekinesis would not be perceptible as coming from the caster. A Subtle Spelled Phantasmal Force would not be perceptible as coming from the caster either. A Subtle Spelled Agannazar's Scorcher would still visibly come from the caster.

[heavyfuel]

A snake tongue pinched between your thumb and forefinger is nigh unnoticeable unless you're carefully watching the hands of a person trying to talk to you and suspicious about why their fingers are pressed together.

Phantasmal Force doesn't have to be used for damage, it can be used to create all sorts of useful or convenient hallucinations. A guard's commander coming over and telling them to go on break while he watches the door, a king misreads a peace treaty as a boorish insult and call to war, someone sees the castle gates loudly clang down into position when really they stay wide open. And "a bit of fleece" is practically a piece of lint, just holding a strand of wool, same scenario as the snake tongue.


Phantamal Force is almost purely a social spell. Don't get stuck on the damage aspect. That is optional. It's a powerful illusion of your choosing that they will try to justify. The spell os also great for stopping combat counters before they begin.

Suggestion has a seperate verbal aspect (the suggestion itself) that gives you away.

I can't imagine how someone would notice something as miniscule as a snakes tongue or a bit of fleece. These are not greatswords. I feel like you may be picturing a serpents tongue or something rather then the 1 inch by 1 millimeter tongue of a snake.

I'm not stuck on the damage aspect of it. To me Phantasmal Force is a control spell far more than a damage spell. Create a cage around the enemy and use it as an Int-save Forcecage starting from level 3. Yeah, it's not as powerful, but still pretty strong.

It can have some social aplications, but unless you're dealing with a single target (and you are creating something, not modifying it) it's almost useless.

You can have totally a snake's tongue pinched between your finger. And the DM can totally ask you for a Sleight of Hand check to properly hide it. It's hardly as automatic as you seem to be assuming, plus, it "locks" you into a single spell. Once you have the snake's tongue and honeycomb in hand, you can no longer cast Phantasmal Force without having to manipulate three objects.

Other sorcerers (with subtle spell and a focus) would not have such problems.

Yeah, it's a minor thing. But it's a thing nonetheless. It helps keep CS from the unnoticeable-spellcaster niche. It's not going to be impossible to cast without being noticed, but there will hoops to jump through that other sorcerers can just ignore.

[sophontteks]

I'm not stuck on the damage aspect of it. To me Phantasmal Force is a control spell far more than a damage spell. Create a cage around the enemy and use it as an Int-save Forcecage starting from level 3. Yeah, it's not as powerful, but still pretty strong.

It can have some social aplications, but unless you're dealing with a single target (and you are creating something, not modifying it) it's almost useless.

Why not create a fake document, or make an authority figure appear to be escorting you, or create an illusion of the item they are looking for, or create a illusionary bodyguard, or create their long-lost child. Literally endless applications with an illusion that effects all senses and makes the target try to justify its existence.



You can have totally a snake's tongue pinched between your finger. And the DM can totally ask you for a Sleight of Hand check to properly hide it. It's hardly as automatic as you seem to be assuming, plus, it "locks" you into a single spell. Once you have the snake's tongue and honeycomb in hand, you can no longer cast Phantasmal Force without having to manipulate three objects.

Other sorcerers (with subtle spell and a focus) would not have such problems.

Yeah, it's a minor thing. But it's a thing nonetheless. It helps keep CS from the unnoticeable-spellcaster niche. It's not going to be impossible to cast without being noticed, but there will hoops to jump through that other sorcerers can just ignore.
I still have no idea what you are talking about.

In what world can we simultaneously have people with such acute senses that they automatically detect that you have a penny-sized object in your hand at all times, yet also be unable to notice you holding an arcane focus?

I never use arcane focuses because they are more obvious then a piece of fleece, or a piece of wool, or a bit of sand. The actual material components are so tiny and mundane its almost always a better option.

Please, just tell me what is more perceivable. A tiny piece of fabric, or a wand?

[heavyfuel]

You can't think of how to use a completely-beleivable illusion that covers all senses in social applications?

Why not create a fake document, or make an authority figure appear to be escorting you, or create an illusion of the item they are looking for, or create a illusionary bodyguard, or create their long-lost child. Literally endless applications.


I still have no idea what you are talking about.

In what world can we simultaneously have people with such acute senses that they automatically detect that you have a penny-sized object in your hand at all times, yet also be unable to notice you holding an arcane focus?

I never use arcane focuses because they are more obvious then a piece of fleece, or a piece of wool, or a bit of sand. The actual material components are so tiny and mundane its almost always a better option.

Please, just tell me what is more perceivable. A tiny piece of fabric, or a wand?

It only works in social situations involving a single peron because it only targets a single person. You don't actually create a document, you just make the person think there's an object there. You can't create an authority figure scouting you, you can only make a single person think there's an authority figure scouting you.

IME, if something important is happening, there will be more than one person to deal with, which drastically limits PS use in social situations.

And yeah, people can notice a rod, but you can just rest your hand there to cast a spell (no item interaction needed since it's part of the spellcasting) just like a soldier might rest his hands on the hilt of his sword. I'd say it's far more common than having a snake's tongue in your hand. Plus, it doesn't lock you into a single spell.

[sophontteks]

It only works in social situations involving a single peron because it only targets a single person. You don't actually create a document, you just make the person think there's an object there. You can't create an authority figure scouting you, you can only make a single person think there's an authority figure scouting you.

IME, if something important is happening, there will be more than one person to deal with, which drastically limits PS use in social situations.

Obviously it doesn't physically create these things, but all that is needed is for the person to believe it. That's how illusions work. You don't need to create an illusion that everyone can see, like with a forged document, it works just great with the person who's actually checking.

Stating that every important encounter involves multiple people is just silly. I can't force you to open your mind to what the spell can do. If you don't like it, great. I use it for tons of social encounters with great success. It's not a hypothetical for me. I'm just helping to show you some uses you haven't thought of.


And yeah, people can notice a rod, but you can just rest your hand there to cast a spell (no item interaction needed since it's part of the spellcasting) just like a soldier might rest his hands on the hilt of his sword. I'd say it's far more common than having a snake's tongue in your hand. Plus, it doesn't lock you into a single spell.
The rod and the material component are completely identical in function and application. Between "resting a hand" on a rod and a piece of fabric, the former is far more perceptible.

[heavyfuel]

Obviously it doesn't physically create these things, but all that is needed is for the person to believe it. That's how illusions work. You don't need to create an illusion that everyone can see, like with a forged document, it works just great with the person who's actually checking.

The rod and the material component are completely identical in function and application. Between "resting a hand" on a rod and a piece of fabric, the former is far more perceptible.

What, like people aren't gonna notice the king checking a non-existing document? Come on! And like the king is going to declare war after a single minute (the duration of the spell). It's just a completely ridiculous proposition.

You're still locking yourself to casting Suggestion if the piece of fabric is what you have available. You cannot spontaneously decide to cast something else. You seem to think I'm saying it's impossible to cast unoticed with CS. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that CS has to limit themselves in ways other sorcerers don't. That's the weakness the name of thread mentions.

[mistajames]

Well:

As others have said, Option 5 under "Manifestations of Order" resolves this issue if the DM is really being a stickler.
All of your subclass abilities are quite good. Bastion of Law can reduce damage to 0 and avoid concentration checks. Negating Disadvantage is relevant.
Bonus spells are great, especially Armor of Agathys (which combos with Bastion of Law).
Spells known now rivals the Wizard at most levels.
Missing Ritual Caster still hurts, but Con Save Proficiency is hugely useful.

[patchyman]

Why not create a fake document, or make an authority figure appear to be escorting you, or create an illusion of the item they are looking for, or create a illusionary bodyguard, or create their long-lost child. Literally endless applications with an illusion that effects all senses and makes the target try to justify its existence.

Because Phantasmal Force (2nd level) is not Programmed Illusion (6th level).

[patchyman]

It only works in social situations involving a single peron because it only targets a single person. You don't actually create a document, you just make the person think there's an object there. You can't create an authority figure scouting you, you can only make a single person think there's an authority figure scouting you.

They actually can’t do that, since the illusion is max 10’ cube and you can’t move the illusion outside that.

[heavyfuel]

Well:

As others have said, Option 5 under "Manifestations of Order" resolves this issue if the DM is really being a stickler.


If the DM is really being a stickler, I don't think they'd allow you to pick option 5 and then never use a focus. Outside of TO fun, getting off on a technicality doesn't usually work, especially if a stickler DM is involved.


They actually can’t do that, since the illusion is max 10’ cube and you can’t move the illusion outside that.

Good point. I suppose this would only work if you were in a really tight space.

[Chronic]

The *casting* is imperceptible, the *effects* aren't.

The rays would still emanate from you.

Innate Spellcasting still emanates from the creature.



There is nothing in the Xanathar's saying or implying that the effect's originating point changes.



Are you a native French speaker, by any chance?



"Rays coming from you" is not "the absence of other evidence".


A Subtle Spelled Telekinesis would not be perceptible as coming from the caster. A Subtle Spelled Phantasmal Force would not be perceptible as coming from the caster either. A Subtle Spelled Agannazar's Scorcher would still visibly come from the caster.

Spotted, I said pnj instead of npc.

OK just to insist, if a spell without perceptible casting have visible effect, the origin of the spell CANNOT be determined, that what's written on xanatar, the other evidence concern anything that is not casting component and visible effect of the spell. It's a simple phrase structure, I don't understand why people don't get it. If in the same phrase you describe spells with visible effect being impossible to determine the origin of, THEN you say "in the absence of of OTHER evidence", then the visible effect cannot be eligible as evidence.
Ergo, something happen to the spell that makes it impossible to pinpoint its caster, such as a different visual form, a different point of origin etc, anything you like because how you translate it in your description is actually irrelevant in terms of mechanics.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Spotted, I said pnj instead of npc.

OK just to insist, if a spell without perceptible casting have visible effect, the origin of the spell CANNOT be determined, that what's written on xanatar, the other evidence concern anything that is not casting component and visible effect of the spell. It's a simple phrase structure, I don't understand why people don't get it. If in the same phrase you describe spells with visible effect being impossible to determine the origin of, THEN you say "in the absence of of OTHER evidence", then the visible effect cannot be eligible as evidence.
Ergo, something happen to the spell that makes it impossible to pinpoint its caster, such as a different visual form, a different point of origin etc, anything you like because how you translate it in your description is actually irrelevant in terms of mechanics.

Uh. No. This doesn't follow from Xanathars guidance at all. The spell effect comes after the cast. By that time, it's too late to do anything about it. So what Xanathars is saying is that the act of casting the spell is not perceptible if no components. But the fact that something happened, and its source after its cast is completely separate. Can't be countered, but that's it.

No hidden rules. If that's what it meant, it would say so. You can't extrapolate.

In fact, Xanathar's specifically separates
* the effects of the spell (including the explosions, etc)
* the casting of the spell itself.

And components only apply to the latter, not the former. So a subtle fireball still produces a "streak of flame from the hand" (that's an effect), but for all anyone knows it's some innate ability, not a spell. There are none of the gestures or chanting usually associated with magic. On the other hand, a subtle charm person isn't perceptible at all (no visible effects, no components).

[Chronic]

I honestly completely disagree, and I'll leave it at that since I've already explained why and I have no further argument to add to the discussion!

[Merudo]

More generally, would a Clockwork Soul ever consider trickery and deceit?

Presumably, a Clockwork Soul would be lawful because of the connection with Mechanus, and would refuse to pull dirty tricks. In fact, Illusion spells don't even work in Mechanus.

[Chronic]

I would argue he doesn't care, since bloodline and such aren't pact, and involve no conditions and no obligatory influence. It would be an rp choice in my opinion. I mean otherwise like 80% of the characters played would not exist considering that the large majority of players pick a race and try to play a character that doesn't fit with the stereotypes of the race. 😎

[MoiMagnus]

More generally, would a Clockwork Soul ever consider trickery and deceit?

Presumably, a Clockwork Soul would be lawful because of the connection with Mechanus, and would refuse to pull dirty tricks. In fact, Illusion spells don't even work in Mechanus.

Not really IMO. Their source of power is lawful, but they can be of any alignment they want. Some examples of chaotic clockwork souls:

+ "Destroying order with order, for maximal chaos guaranteed !"
+ "Power is a tool to be used, I only follow the rules that are absolutely necessary for me to keep that power, not more."
+ The mad sorcerer-scientist who want to change the world by starting an industrial revolution.

Obviously, if you're not lawful, it's quite unlikely that you are the one who has been granted directly power from mecanus, it's much more likely to have inherited it ... or stolen.

[PhantomSoul]

I honestly completely disagree, and I'll leave it at that since I've already explained why and I have no further argument to add to the discussion!

If you have Xanathar's in French, maybe it's less clear in the French translation that only the casting [not the effects] is affected (I don't have access to a French version right now to check). It sounds like a distinction that could easily be lost from a translation error in the book.

[Segev]

What kind of argument is that? You just rolled initiative and you somehow have fleece ready on your hand? Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that one.


First thing my gnome asked when she saw that most Illusion spells use wool : "can my character wear a wool-jacket ?" (While yes she can. And she was glad she did during the jailbrak scenario of the campaign start, where they had no other components save for the sand of their cells).
I just wanted to say much the same thing Osuniev did, here: particularly for minor illusion, wearing a fleece vest that you brush with your fingers in an arcane gesture is fairly subtle and doesn't require pulling any components out. Not that it is unnoticeable, but it isn't going to be obvious that your vest is a material component.

[MaxWilson]

I just wanted to say much the same thing Osuniev did, here: particularly for minor illusion, wearing a fleece vest that you brush with your fingers in an arcane gesture is fairly subtle and doesn't require pulling any components out. Not that it is unnoticeable, but it isn't going to be obvious that your vest is a material component.

Now I want to make a kender NPC who is always fidgeting with his bat guano hat.

[Segev]

Now I want to make a kender NPC who is always fidgeting with his bat guano hat.

That seems more Gully Dwarf behavior than Kender, and would require using up pickings off of the hat with each casting of fireball (which is what I assume you're using it for).

[Chronic]

If you have Xanathar's in French, maybe it's less clear in the French translation that only the casting [not the effects] is affected (I don't have access to a French version right now to check). It sounds like a distinction that could easily be lost from a translation error in the book.

I don't, I have all my books in English.

[Chronic]

I just wanted to say much the same thing Osuniev did, here: particularly for minor illusion, wearing a fleece vest that you brush with your fingers in an arcane gesture is fairly subtle and doesn't require pulling any components out. Not that it is unnoticeable, but it isn't going to be obvious that your vest is a material component.

By raw as described in Xanathar's , material component makes the casting noticeable, no matter what the size or form. I run it this way in my games because I run subtle as I described in my previous post, and it would make sorcerers with the proper skills extremely powerful and casters need hard limitations, but I also think it makes sense roleplay wise to allow a caster to try to hide its casting, depending on the table and the playstyle

[PhantomSoul]

By raw as described in Xanathar's , material component makes the casting noticeable, no matter what the size or form. I run it this way in my games because I run subtle as I described in my previous post, and it would make sorcerers with the proper skills extremely powerful and casters need hard limitations, but I also think it makes sense roleplay wise to allow a caster to try to hide its casting, depending on the table and the playstyle

That's how it's run in (most of) my groups too (including the one I DM for), and I've found it works well to get people to consider the usefulness of spells differently based on the situation and to try to be creative about how the casting needs to be hidden (e.g. being out of sight, casting from darkness). And usually casting in these situations is so powerful (especially for many of the material-component spells) that it's added to feeling like the huge effect is earned in those contexts.

[sophontteks]

By raw as described in Xanathar's , material component makes the casting noticeable, no matter what the size or form. I run it this way in my games because I run subtle as I described in my previous post, and it would make sorcerers with the proper skills extremely powerful and casters need hard limitations, but I also think it makes sense roleplay wise to allow a caster to try to hide its casting, depending on the table and the playstyle
The exact wording is perceptible, not noticeable. While one may describe the action as being evident the other only means that is is able to be seen. Xanathar's only means that one could possibly notice it, and says nothing about how noticeable it is (not very in most cases).

[Chronic]

Yeah... No... It just means that in normal situations (no obscurment or else), it is noticeable, since perceptible is a synonyme of noticeable. You rule it as you want but otherwise they wouldn't specify that material component doesn't take into account form and size, which is made to prevent shenanigans.

This is the first definition of perceptible found on google:
(especially of a slight movement or change of state) able to be seen or noticed.

[RSP]

Yeah... No... It just means that in normal situations (no obscurment or else), it is noticeable, since perceptible is a synonyme of noticeable. You rule it as you want but otherwise they wouldn't specify that material component doesn't take into account form and size, which is made to prevent shenanigans.

This is the first definition of perceptible found on google:
(especially of a slight movement or change of state) able to be seen or noticed.

Holding a staff or other focus/component, is, indeed, something that can be seen, or observed. That’s all that XgtE is saying. You don’t automatically know someone is casting just because they’re holding a staff, though.

[sophontteks]

Yeah... No... It just means that in normal situations (no obscurment or else), it is noticeable, since perceptible is a synonyme of noticeable. You rule it as you want but otherwise they wouldn't specify that material component doesn't take into account form and size, which is made to prevent shenanigans.

This is the first definition of perceptible found on google:
(especially of a slight movement or change of state) able to be seen or noticed.
They have similiar meanings but noticable suggests that is is evident, easily seen, apparent, etc.

easily seen vs. able to be seen. This is a very important divergence in the words.

A good magicians tricks are always perceptible but never noticable.

[Segev]

Rather than - as I was about to do - argue over the precise definition of "noticeable," I think reinforcing the point that "perceptible" means "possible to perceive" is useful. That means that observers can potentially see, hear, smell, or otherwise sense the thing occurring; it does not mean they automatically do so.

A silent image is imperceptible to a blind creature. A rogue, no matter how high his Hide check, is technically perceptible, no matter how unlikely. (If he rolls better than it is possible for some to get, that's technically imperceptible by the mechanics, but in theory it is just a matter of skill to notice, not an impossibility to be perceived by any sense.)

Just because something is perceptible does not mean it is automatically perceived, any more than something being edible automatically means it is eaten.

[Chronic]

And people should start to think of it in a game design perspective. Casting is made to be loud and visible, it's by design and it's one of its limit. Does it make sense in termes of physics or in universe logic? No, it does in terms of mechanics, very much so. You cast a spell without subtle, you are heard and seen. You use materials or a focus? You are seen except obscured and such. This is the number one magic weakness and it's here for a reason. You want to do it differently? Sure feel free, but the description of spell components in the PHB and the xanatar piece about percieveable casting are made to establish limits and exceptions, which in my opinion are fairly clear.

[sophontteks]

And people should start to think of it in a game design perspective. Casting is made to be loud and visible, it's by design and it's one of its limit. Does it make sense in termes of physics or in universe logic? No, it does in terms of mechanics, very much so. You cast a spell without subtle, you are heard and seen. You use materials or a focus? You are seen except obscured and such. This is the number one magic weakness and it's here for a reason. You want to do it differently? Sure feel free, but the description of spell components in the PHB and the xanatar piece about percieveable casting are made to establish limits and exceptions, which in my opinion are fairly clear.
Casting is not designed to be loud or visible. Verbal components can be heard, somatic ones can be seen. We can easily explain why without handwaving it as senseless balancing mechanics.

Material components are just plain not nearly as obvious in almost all cases.

Players tend not to like "because balance" as a reason in a roleplaying game. And subtle, along with sorcerers in general, are very much designed to work around normal spellcasting balance. This is the main appeal of their class.

The components have multiple consequences, not all related to the obviousness of a spell. Material requires both access to the material as well as a free hand. It is a much more consequential component for casters using a weapon and shield then one trying to be hidden.

Not that a material component should be completely discounted. Someone very wise to what you are doing could very well notice it, and it could also link you to the crime after the fact if investigated. (Absent it xanthara notes that it would otherwise be impossible without some other evidence.)

[Chronic]

Material is gameplay wise like any other component, as per the rule they are no matter what the size or the form perceptible. And it's by design.
Perceptible doesn't mean can be perceived, it mean it is detectable using our senses, which means under usual circumstance, there is no need for any kind of roll in dnd. If you are not hidden you can be seen and anything you do can also be seen. Ledgermain, hiding and the like takes a test, which usually require an action, since casting a spell also require an action, doing both in the same turn is not possible under normal circumstances. You cannot per the rule, dissimulate the act of casting just by saying, "yes but my vest is wool and I need wool", or "yes but I say the incantation really quietly". "Yes but I'm behind someone and hide my hands". That's not how it works.

[sophontteks]

Material is gameplay wise like any other component, as per the rule they are no matter what the size or the form perceptible. And it's by design.
Perceptible doesn't mean can be perceived, it mean it is detectable using our senses, which means under usual circumstance, there is no need for any kind of roll in dnd. If you are not hidden you can be seen and anything you do can also be seen. Ledgermain, hiding and the like takes a test, which usually require an action, since casting a spell also require an action, doing both in the same turn is not possible under normal circumstances. You cannot per the rule, dissimulate the act of casting just by saying, "yes but my vest is wool and I need wool", or "yes but I say the incantation really quietly". "Yes but I'm behind someone and hide my hands". That's not how it works.

Can you in any way back this as something more then your opinion, or explain why you can't use wool you wear as a material component?

Perceptible literally means "able to be perceived." You can't change what words mean to suit you.

Everything a good magician does is perceptible. Yet none are noticable. This is the proper use of the word. Just because you could notice it, doesn't mean you do.

[MaxWilson]

Holding a staff or other focus/component, is, indeed, something that can be seen, or observed. That’s all that XgtE is saying. You don’t automatically know someone is casting just because they’re holding a staff, though.

You could also potentially notice e.g. that someone had stopped doing other things (like conversing), assuming they don't have Action Surge, and had turned around to look at the target (assuming they don't have blindsight or 360-degree vision). You could notice the obvious interest they were displaying in the target right before the target showed symptoms of madness (Enemies Abound or whatever).

There are many ways to perceive.


That seems more Gully Dwarf behavior than Kender, and would require using up pickings off of the hat with each casting of fireball (which is what I assume you're using it for).

Naw, I just want to psyche people out making them THINK the NPC might Fireball at any moment--hence why it seems kender-ish. I probably won't actually ever use the idea.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Can you in any way back this as something more then your opinion, or explain why you can't use wool you wear as a material component?

Perceptible literally means "able to be perceived." You can't change what words mean to suit you.

Everything a good magician does is perceptible. Yet none are noticable. This is the proper use of the word. Just because you could notice it, doesn't mean you do.

Well, here's some RAW. Clockwork soul has manifestations of order which create an effect. 5/6 effects provide visually perceptible phenomena which means that unless a particular circumstance were to come into play (like you being hidden first), they'd be noticed without a roll. When you break your hiding to see the target, again, they'd be noticed without a roll. Unless the other creatures in the area are blind, possibly if you can convince the DM they are distracted (by Bard casting Enthrall perhaps), you are totally obscured or invisible, the phenomena are noticed without a roll. Their significance might not be known to many creatures, but it only takes one to decide a strange event immediately preceding another strange event is causal. Jumping to causal relationship despite correlation being the only evidence is standard human behavior that requires actual training to overcome.

Further, the Manifestation regarding Focus changing to clockwork would only be viable if you use a focus. So you could not wear a fleece vest or palm a scrap of fleece, use it as a material component, and then choose "Focus becomes clockwork" and hide the effect bc neither is a focus.

A staff or orb is obvious when held, casting with subtle would be impossible to discern by RAW, but the staff suddenly Bayformerizing into a clock and then back would definitely be noticed without the need for a roll unless one of the previously mentioned circumstances (totally obscured, etc) were engineered in advance.

I'm not out to nerf sorcerers as a whole or be the poopy pants about casting sneakily. For the life of me I do not know how Enchanter Wizards are supposed to work? They can't hide what they do, everyone must think they're villains...

[Valmark]

Well, here's some RAW. Clockwork soul has manifestations of order which create an effect. 5/6 effects provide visually perceptible phenomena which means that unless a particular circumstance were to come into play (like you being hidden first), they'd be noticed without a roll. When you break your hiding to see the target, again, they'd be noticed without a roll. Unless the other creatures in the area are blind, possibly if you can convince the DM they are distracted (by Bard casting Enthrall perhaps), you are totally obscured or invisible, the phenomena are noticed without a roll. Their significance might not be known to many creatures, but it only takes one to decide a strange event immediately preceding another strange event is causal. Jumping to causal relationship despite correlation being the only evidence is standard human behavior that requires actual training to overcome.

Further, the Manifestation regarding Focus changing to clockwork would only be viable if you use a focus. So you could not wear a fleece vest or palm a scrap of fleece, use it as a material component, and then choose "Focus becomes clockwork" and hide the effect bc neither is a focus.

A staff or orb is obvious when held, casting with subtle would be impossible to discern by RAW, but the staff suddenly Bayformerizing into a clock and then back would definitely be noticed without the need for a roll unless one of the previously mentioned circumstances (totally obscured, etc) were engineered in advance.

I'm not out to nerf sorcerers as a whole or be the poopy pants about casting sneakily. For the life of me I do not know how Enchanter Wizards are supposed to work? They can't hide what they do, everyone must think they're villains...

I keep on not understanding why's that a problem when there is one effect that doesn't get you discovered. You know there is, since you're saying it here and back in the opening post, so I keep not getting why you hold this opinion.

Also nothing says you can't pick the focus option if you aren't using a focus to cast. Although you do have to have a focus at least.