Help Designing a Paladin for Avernus

[SociopathFriend]

So I'm probably gonna roll a Paladin for the Avernus campaign (no spoilers if you can help it please) and for the first time in my memory- this particular DM has not banned Unearthed Arcana outright but instead decided he'll talk it out.

With that in mind- are there any UA combinations I could be on the lookout for that work pretty nicely with Paladin? I'm contemplating those Gothic Lineages but I never really paid attention to UA races and subclasses on account of them never being allowed so that's mostly just because it's a recent one I remember. Are there any Paladin Oaths in UA that haven't been put into a hardcover yet?

Most likely I'm going to play up being hard to kill if that helps. My current known party members are two Druids (a guy and his young daughter, I think she's like 10 so not expecting much) and my brother who will be rolling some manner of Celestial Warlock. I don't believe the Druids will focus on Wild Shape.

If it helps my starting stats should be: 16, 13, 16, 13, 14, 17. Not applied to any specific stats yet mind you- those are just the scores.
Yes I am pretty good at rolling up Stats. It is the only part of D&D I have any luck in.

[stoutstien]

Really just about any pally will be fine. I would look around the area of BG for factions you find interesting and go from there.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I agree with the Paladin concept of 'just don't die', as the passive auras are just too good to end up falling because you are trying to do a bit more damage.
With that in mind I'd start with the basics: Have a shield, get defensive fighting style (The extra damage of the other ones is neglegable), and pump Chr as fast as you can, which should be easier with your rolls.
Beyond that, feats like Defensive Duelist (if you are dex based) and Lucky can help you out. I don't think subclass is a huge issue, and you might be better to focus on what you want to play especially if UA is in play, but as a fall back Ancients is always good for it's 7th level aura.

[1Pirate]

You will be encountering a lot of poison and fire damage, so picking up resistances to those via racials or other methods would be nice.

[Rerem115]

Technically a spoiler, but the module "Descent Into Avernus" spends a sizeable amount of time in The Hells, in Avernus. Given that there's no sunlight there, it's a good place for drow, kobolds, and deep gnomes to shine. There's also the added fun of the first two being traditionally Lawful Evil, which can lead to some fun roleplay tensions.

[diplomancer]

So I'm probably gonna roll a Paladin for the Avernus campaign (no spoilers if you can help it please) and for the first time in my memory- this particular DM has not banned Unearthed Arcana outright but instead decided he'll talk it out.

With that in mind- are there any UA combinations I could be on the lookout for that work pretty nicely with Paladin? I'm contemplating those Gothic Lineages but I never really paid attention to UA races and subclasses on account of them never being allowed so that's mostly just because it's a recent one I remember. Are there any Paladin Oaths in UA that haven't been put into a hardcover yet?

Most likely I'm going to play up being hard to kill if that helps. My current known party members are two Druids (a guy and his young daughter, I think she's like 10 so not expecting much) and my brother who will be rolling some manner of Celestial Warlock. I don't believe the Druids will focus on Wild Shape.

If it helps my starting stats should be: 16, 13, 16, 13, 14, 17. Not applied to any specific stats yet mind you- those are just the scores.
Yes I am pretty good at rolling up Stats. It is the only part of D&D I have any luck in.

With these stats, I'd suggest a Dexadin. Probably Oath of the Watchers, but Ancients might also work fine, as you will have regular use of your Turn the Faithless Channel Divinity. Another great option is Oath of Devotion, though you will have a tough time deciding between making your weapon magical or Turning the fiends with your CD.

Race-wise, if using Tasha's racial rules, best one will likely be Yuan-ti or Hill Dwarf, start with both Cha and Dex at 18. Otherwise, Eladrin, Drow, Half-Elfs, Halflings, Tieflings (one of the subraces that raises Dex), all work fine.

One crazy good UA option are the deprecated Warforged. If your DM allows it, that would be my suggestion; be an Envoy, start with both Con and Dex at 18, Cha at 16, just keep raising Cha and Dex. Integrated Thieves' Tools, since there's no Rogue in your party. As a bonus, you have Poison resistance, which, as mentioned, helps a lot in this adventure. You will hardly ever be hit, much less die. At level 5, if you raised Dex at level 4, we are talking a 19AC, with no stealth penalty, before shield or fighting style. It's crazy good, and you don't need to worry about whether you will be able to get Plate once you get to Avernus. Consider a Sorcerer dip (1 level in Clockwork Soul helps dealing with fiend's magic resistance, 1 level in Shadow Sorcerer solves your lack of Darkvision and makes you near unkillable- for a Dexadin, who always wants to raise Dex and Cha, these are better than the ubiquitous Hexblade dip) for Shield Spell. If you go that route of "very high AC", Oath of the Crown becomes a fine choice as well.

[Porcupinata]

Without giving any spoilers, when I ran it one of the players played a Paladin of Redemption and the campaign was pretty much ideal for her.

However - and I have to word this very carefully to avoid spoilers - a large part of the campaign is split into two alternate "paths" that the party can follow. One is ideal for paladins (especially redemption paladins), but the other is terrible for them; and there's no in-character way of knowing which is which until you've embarked down one or the other. As a DM, I gave the paladin in my party some divine guidance to nudge the party toward the path that I knew they would enjoy more and which would have the better roleplaying pay-off at the end, but if your DM doesn't do this then you may end up getting very frustrated as a paladin if you accidentally choose the wrong path.

[SociopathFriend]

With these stats, I'd suggest a Dexadin. Probably Oath of the Watchers, but Ancients might also work fine, as you will have regular use of your Turn the Faithless Channel Divinity. Another great option is Oath of Devotion, though you will have a tough time deciding between making your weapon magical or Turning the fiends with your CD.

Race-wise, if using Tasha's racial rules, best one will likely be Yuan-ti or Hill Dwarf, start with both Cha and Dex at 18. Otherwise, Eladrin, Drow, Half-Elfs, Halflings, Tieflings (one of the subraces that raises Dex), all work fine.



Curious- I've never trued a Dexadin.
I'm gonna try single-classing this campaign as the DM has joked he's never seen me do that yet in 5e.

He's admittedly got a point though in my defense I don't count popping a different level after reaching 10 in a single class.

[Unoriginal]

Wouldn't go DEX-paladin, personally. But eh, if you think it's fun, go for it.

[SociopathFriend]

Wouldn't go DEX-paladin, personally. But eh, if you think it's fun, go for it.

I mean Con is getting pumped first regardless. So Dex vs Strength isn't going to be the biggest deal at the start.

Depending on how fast we level I might even max Cha second if my Auras will be online sooner rather than later.

[diplomancer]

If you are pumping Con (which I don't think is a good idea, 16- or 18 if Warforged- is plenty), than it's better to go Str, or at least to either have 15 str or be the Warforged I suggested. Otherwise, the AC difference will be too great.

The reason I suggest a Dexadin is that you've said you want to focus on defense; and the main advantage of going Str are the big weapons that sacrifice your defense, and greater weapon versatility; but if you are going to be wielding a shield, a rapier is as good as a longsword; and if you need to really nova, you can forgo the shield and use two short swords to go smite-happy, all with no feats expenditure.

[Maan]

Curious- I've never trued a Dexadin.

If you are interested, this build by LudicSavant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24941211&postcount=938) is pretty interesting (not to mention, well detailed and explained, as per his usual style).

[diplomancer]

If you are interested, this build by LudicSavant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24941211&postcount=938) is pretty interesting (not to mention, well detailed and explained, as per his usual style).

It's a good build, as is usual for a build by LudicSavant. But this is a party with 2 druids, and, at some point, facing a lot of creatures wit Devil Sight, I'd imagine. So two of the main benefits of the race, Darkness and Pass Without Trace, are lost. So for this particular party and campaign, I'd consider the ideas in the build, but probably choose a different race.

There's also the fact that many DMs will not allow Gift of Alacrity. Definitely a "ask your DM first" before you commit to it.

[Maan]

It's a good build, as is usual for a build by LudicSavant. But this is a party with 2 druids, and, at some point, facing a lot of creatures wit Devil Sight, I'd imagine. So two of the main benefits of the race, Darkness and Pass Without Trace, are lost. So for this particular party and campaign, I'd consider the ideas in the build, but probably choose a different race.

There's also the fact that many DMs will not allow Gift of Alacrity. Definitely a "ask your DM first" before you commit to it.

Yep, I wasn't suggesting taking it at face value, but the basic ideas are pretty solid to start thinking about a Dexadin build.
An Elf with Revenant Blade + Elven Accuracy can make pretty much any Paladin work for a Dex build, as long as the party can reliably generate Advantage; Vengeance Paladin is also a pretty obvious solution.

Honestly, I've played a Dex Paladin simply using two weapons: you don't really need feats or fighting styles for it to be effective, the extra chance to score a critical and attach a Smite to it it's a good thing in itself.

[Sception]

Without getting into detailed spoilers, any paladin will be amazing in this campaign. I played probably the worst paladin subclass for this campaign, at least mechanically: Conquest. And while I didn't get as much use from my subclass features as I might have liked, the parent class features alone still made the character feel quite powerful.

The big thing, which I do not consider a spoiler because you already know you're going to Avernus, is that there will be a lot of fiends, which has a couple of obvious effects.

First, you get an extra d8 of damage on divine smite. This means divine smite - already a good ability - is even better than usual. It also means the smite spells are even worse than usual by comparison. And it means you'll want to smite more, which means casting less, which means you want to focus on spell slot efficiency with the spells you do cast.

Second, by and large fiends tend to have very good saving throws against spells and other magical effects. This means that your offensive spells will be weaker than usual. Paladin buffing and healing spells tend to be better than their offensive spells to begin with, but while you're in Avernus you want to be extra skeptical of any spells that target enemies and allow saving throws when memorizing spells for the day.

Likewise subclass features, particularly channel divinities, that allow saves will be less reliable than usual. Look instead to buffing and support abilities where possible.


But honestly, you really don't need to be worried here, since as a paladin you'll be great regardless. Again I played a conquest paladin, the paladin subclass more focused than any other on abilities that only work when enemies fail saving throws against them. And while I didn't get all that much use out of those abilities, I was still very strong on parent class features alone. Well, parent class features and the conqueror's oath spell spiritual weapon.

...

As for UA, there's not much that I'd advise for or against. In another campaign I'd jump on any opportunity to run a Conquest Paladin with the Menacing feat if a DM allowed it, but not so much for Avernus specifically. Since again, it's not the best platform for Conquerors, and Menacing doesn't work on fiends anyway.

[SociopathFriend]

If you are pumping Con (which I don't think is a good idea, 16- or 18 if Warforged- is plenty), than it's better to go Str, or at least to either have 15 str or be the Warforged I suggested. Otherwise, the AC difference will be too great.

The reason I suggest a Dexadin is that you've said you want to focus on defense; and the main advantage of going Str are the big weapons that sacrifice your defense, and greater weapon versatility; but if you are going to be wielding a shield, a rapier is as good as a longsword; and if you need to really nova, you can forgo the shield and use two short swords to go smite-happy, all with no feats expenditure.

Oh so when people say Strength they really mean, "Two handed great weapon"? Because you can Strength and use a shield just fine.

I'm considering the Reborn UA race. The idea of having advantage on Death Saves is very alluring and it does come with the poison resistance everyone was saying would be helpful.
Also I can't imagine there's the most plentiful resources in Avernus in terms of food and water though two Druids probably neutralize that particular concern.

[diplomancer]

Oh so when people say Strength they really mean, "Two handed great weapon"? Because you can Strength and use a shield just fine.

I'm considering the Reborn UA race. The idea of having advantage on Death Saves is very alluring and it does come with the poison resistance everyone was saying would be helpful.
Also I can't imagine there's the most plentiful resources in Avernus in terms of food and water though two Druids probably neutralize that particular concern.

STR could also be some grappler build; but if you are going Sword-and-Board, you will get as much damage out of Dex as out of Str, so you might as well go Dex, which has other advantages like a decent ranged option, higher initiative, stealth, and better Dex saves, which tend to be more frequent than Str saves.

Have you checked with your DM about the old Warforged? It also won't need food, drink, or sleep, like the Reborn, but it's other features leave the Reborn in the dust.

[SociopathFriend]

Have you checked with your DM about the old Warforged? It also won't need food, drink, or sleep, like the Reborn, but it's other features leave the Reborn in the dust.

Figured I would comment again just to fill in the thread.
I ended up going Reborn just because we have a running theme where anytime I have undead minions (surprisingly often) I dub them 'Olaf' and throughout the campaign have the mantra of, 'Olaf takes the hits'. The potential for increasing the legend couldn't be passed by to play the original Olaf from which the story begins. The DM and myself decided even though my 'hp' would heal- I'd stay injured physically to help simulate the Reborn part.

That said the stats I ended up with are:
HP 34 (max at level 1, averaged every level after)
AC 17 (Studded leather + shield + defense style)

Str 13
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 16

Gonna stick with Devotion Paladin as the Oath. We had our first session and the Averness tavern fight- the Druids have now realized how tanky they can be via changing form and the DM is onto it as well though they burned through both their Shapeshifts to keep alive. I predict either we're going to start facing lots of enemies to whittle them down or in short order Saving Throws are going to become much more common.

Can you Smite with the Shield Master shove?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Figured I would comment again just to fill in the thread.
I ended up going Reborn just because we have a running theme where anytime I have undead minions (surprisingly often) I dub them 'Olaf' and throughout the campaign have the mantra of, 'Olaf takes the hits'. The potential for increasing the legend couldn't be passed by to play the original Olaf from which the story begins. The DM and myself decided even though my 'hp' would heal- I'd stay injured physically to help simulate the Reborn part.

That said the stats I ended up with are:
HP 34 (max at level 1, averaged every level after)
AC 17 (Studded leather + shield + defense style)

Str 13
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 16

Gonna stick with Devotion Paladin as the Oath. We had our first session and the Averness tavern fight- the Druids have now realized how tanky they can be via changing form and the DM is onto it as well though they burned through both their Shapeshifts to keep alive. I predict either we're going to start facing lots of enemies to whittle them down or in short order Saving Throws are going to become much more common.

Can you Smite with the Shield Master shove?
Your AC should be 19, not 17. I think you forgot to add the shield. You'd make a decent scout if you decided to take a level of rogue down the road, which you can since you have 13 Str. Advantage to your Athletics for your shove, Stealth, and another d6 to one attack per round would be pretty good. (Pretty much this is what one of my characters did, so I'm biased.)

[SociopathFriend]

Your AC should be 19, not 17. I think you forgot to add the shield. You'd make a decent scout if you decided to take a level of rogue down the road, which you can since you have 13 Str. Advantage to your Athletics for your shove, Stealth, and another d6 to one attack per round would be pretty good. (Pretty much this is what one of my characters did, so I'm biased.)

The Warlock has been making Find Familiar noises and given the one Druid will only appear every other session (shared custody daughter) it's likely the DM is gonna pull a past player back in who doesn't really do 'scouting' anyways. Or put another way he'll charge ahead regardless of whether someone's scouting or not. I like said player mind you- it's not a full complaint.

Also I think it's less not adding Shield and more just misremembering Studded Leather in some way. Either assuming the total AC was lower or assuming it had a +2 limit on the Dex bonus.
Though you're still right that I'm wrong.

Wow- 21 AC is on the table with Shield of Faith for up to a minute. Fodder eat your heart out- especially if I take a Dodge Action.