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Rolaran
2007-11-09, 02:28 AM
Hello!

So, here's the situation. I'm DM'ing a pretty standard 3.5 game. The party has basically decided that the whole "heroes, questing for the common good" doesn't appeal to them, and they'd rather play a group of badass scoundrels. That's fine by me, I enjoy a good gang of antiheroes. I said up front that I have no problem running this kind of thing, as long as it didn't devolve into the typical "evil party" behavior- you know, wanton murder, baby-eating, and whatnot. This seemed generally acceptable, and so we have:

1. The elven duskblade.
2. The dwarven cleric of Olidammara.
3. The tiefling rogue.
4. The human fighter.

These characters regularly show up, and make for a fun if motley crew. Sure, the duskblade is attempting to found his own cult, and the tiefling occasionally calls up "Grandpa" for a chat, but it's all in good fun.

Then there's the occasional guest star, a monk turned fighter hereafter referred to as "Psycho Guy". Who has become a serial killer.

Basically, any time things don't go exactly as he planned with an NPC, Psycho Guy decides he is being "cheated" and demands "lawful retribution". This usually means he attempts to kill the person who "cheated" him. (Because of course, the lawful punishment for shortchanging a traveler 5 gp on a sword is death, right?) This I've mostly dealt with by having his face on wanted posters throughout the country, forcing him to watch his temper lest he be recognized and arrested. Unfortunately it's had little effect.

Case in point: After the party helped defend a local temple of St. Cuthbert from undead, the dwarven cleric decided that he deserved a reward for helping a temple in peril, and helped himself to the contents of the ransacked reliquary. After picking out a nice looking goblet, a booming voice proclaimed that he had chosen his reward, and would bear its corresponding burden. Then he realized that he had somehow ended up with a prayer book from St. Cuthbert, which he would be forced to carry at all times (which is a bit annoying for a cleric of Olidammara). However, as soon as Psycho Guy heard this, he turned to the NPC cleric who had helped defend the temple and bisected him. After the requisite cries of "WTF?", he claimed the dwarven cleric had just "stolen" a prayer book, and he was just "getting rid of the witnesses". A bolt of energy from the altar vaporised his sword; he acted genuinely shocked, claiming he was just "looking after his party".

Now, the person playing Psycho Guy is a nice enough guy out of game, and one of my friends. He just seems to have gotten the idea into his head that the party is evil, and has decided to be the most evil bastard on the planet. I don't want to tell him to leave, and my attempts to tell him to tone it down have fallen on deaf ears. What do I do?

Sardia
2007-11-09, 02:37 AM
Are the other players still having fun, or does it annoy them, too?

tyckspoon
2007-11-09, 02:43 AM
If it's bothering the other players, have some Cuthbertian paladins chase down the psychotic serial killer who murdered one of Cuthbert's priests and 'show him the error of his ways'. With Cuthbert, that probably means they'll bash in his head with cudgels. Or jam a Helm of Opposite Alignment on him, maybe. You're on the right track with putting out the character's name and likeness as a wanted being, and defiling temples and killing priests is classically one of the acts that causes people to start taking proactive steps to bring in the offender. Especially temples and priests of gods like St. Cuthbert, who rather enjoy cracking the skull of an errant psycho who doesn't know when to stop.

If it's not bothering the other players, then your group is playing in the way that entertains them, and there's relatively little you can do about that. You can try to apply some more pressures (both subtle and not-so) to make the problem player change tactics, but ultimately you might have to wait for the current campaign to come to whatever end it reaches and just ask the group to make less morally-questionable characters next time around.

toddex
2007-11-09, 02:53 AM
I never understood why some DMs were so uptight about players going evil.
I love it when my players go nutso although they usually give me reasons for their actions sounds like this guy is doing a pretty good job of giving you reasons for his actions I dont see why he should be punished for having fun.
This is D&D if someone wants to rape pillage and burn a city theyre in control of their characters I dont see why they cant. If they manage to fight off the town guard (reasonable guards... cant stand super control DMs who supply every town with a troupe of elite 12+ guards all wearing atleast 200k in equipment.)

Honestly I wouldnt call him a psycho player id say hes just having a bit of fun and playing his character pretty well considering ive seen alot worse.
If you have no fun DMing evil campaigns you should have really turned down this campaign. Or take him aside and tell him how it bothers you how he plays his character, simply turning up the heat on his character is just going to frustrate him and may even give you one less friend.

AslanCross
2007-11-09, 03:47 AM
The DM's supposed to enjoy the game too. As Fax once said, the game is a construct of the will of many (or something to that extent). Ideally, the DM and the players agree on limits. If a player is going beyond the limits they agree, then the DM is well within rights to put him back into line.

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-09, 03:54 AM
I'm a huge fan of repercussions, which you've already been incorporating. He just killed a Cleric of St. Freakin' Cuthbert. The god of VENGEANCE. And he's partying with a guy who just got a Cuthbert Holy Book attached to him. They're in for clerics hunting them (or at least him) down wherever they go.

Now, I normally don't favor killing PCs unless one of two things happens.

A) Good reason, plot hook or somesuch. Used sparingly.

B) They do something REALLY stupid. I mean really, REALLY stupid. I think pissing off the church of the god of vengeance counts.

Randel
2007-11-09, 05:00 AM
One random idea, from a person who has never DM'd:

Create a Quirky Miniboss Squad (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.QuirkyMinibossSquad) of good adventurers who are out to chase down your evil players.

Extra points if you create a Miko-esque paladin to counter your psycho player.

its_all_ogre
2007-11-09, 05:14 AM
paladins of St Cuthbert backed up by a ranger, to track, and maybe a cleric or too and a wizard.
not a level appropriate challenge either. if they defeat this group then a more powerful group will be sent unless they cover their tracks and leave area.
this way you can have them reappear later when pcs are higher level.

also bear in mind that these guys are not likely to forgive after any kind of recompensation has been made...

ooc i would talk to him and the group and see if this is what they want, random murders that is, then cater for the response. email them all individually if you like and then adjust your response accordingly.

Dervag
2007-11-09, 05:33 AM
I never understood why some DMs were so uptight about players going evil.
I love it when my players go nutso although they usually give me reasons for their actions sounds like this guy is doing a pretty good job of giving you reasons for his actions I dont see why he should be punished for having fun.Because he's so unstable and murderous that it makes it difficult, if not impossible, for the DM to create adventures for the party. Any NPC this lunatic interacts with may very well end up getting killed, for any reason or none. Therefore, the DM can't design anything that relies on an NPC because the lunatic murders NPCs at random.

When the DM can't design anything, it drives the DM out of his skull and often makes things less interesting for the players too, because the DM can no longer supply even a trickle of plot.

Just as sufficient mechanical munchkinnery can break a game by leaving all the other players feeling irrelevant, sufficient crazy chaotic psycho roleplaying can break a game by making the DM feel irrelevant.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-09, 06:09 AM
As long he's not bothering the others players, let him do as he wants.
After a few encounters with paladins and head hunters after the reward for his head, the party itself will talk to the pycho PC and tell him they don't like his attitude.
As a DM, I do enjoy the "hero" kind of story, but I don't forbid a PC from being evil. He just need to remember that he'll be putting himself in risk if he acts that way.

lord_khaine
2007-11-09, 06:25 AM
i agree on what others have said, either send a good group of heroes after him to bring him to justice, or let try and assult someone who is actualy the same level as himself.

if the player runs around killing people, he will have to accept people will want to kill him back.

this does resemble a case of pc-immortality, where the player belives he cant die because he is a pc, killing off his current char might make him a bit more carefull with the next one.

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-09, 06:37 AM
Ah.. in the eternal words of Malcom Reynolds:

Anybody tries to kill you, you kill them right back.

Rolaran
2007-11-09, 09:45 AM
Because he's so unstable and murderous that it makes it difficult, if not impossible, for the DM to create adventures for the party. Any NPC this lunatic interacts with may very well end up getting killed, for any reason or none. Therefore, the DM can't design anything that relies on an NPC because the lunatic murders NPCs at random.

When the DM can't design anything, it drives the DM out of his skull and often makes things less interesting for the players too, because the DM can no longer supply even a trickle of plot.

Just as sufficient mechanical munchkinnery can break a game by leaving all the other players feeling irrelevant, sufficient crazy chaotic psycho roleplaying can break a game by making the DM feel irrelevant.

Well put. This is the problem exactly.

The other players are more annoyed than anything else. I think they realize how tough it is to try to plan an adventure when any NPC in PG's general vicinity has a life expectancy equal to the amount of time they do exactly what PG wants, plus 6 seconds. In any case, their characters are trying to pass themselves off as the classic good adventuring party, which becomes a lot harder when they leave a trail of corpses.

As for sending a St. Cuthbert strike team after him, that's a good idea, and what I was planning to make my next step if he doesn't cut it out. Head hunters... that's brilliant. I'll be using that for sure.

One other clarification, the character rolled very well on stats, and has been moderately to heavily munchkinned. Any NPC of his level (which is 3rd, by the way) who he catches flatfooted is usually toast. However, a well crafted bounty hunter should be able to take him down...

But the first step is to try and convince him out of character to ease up on the killing. Ideally, I'd like to solve this without resorting to "rocks fall, you die" or equivalents thereof.

Xuincherguixe
2007-11-09, 10:02 AM
Try and convince the guy to get more "fun" out of his victims instead of just killing them. That might help things a bit.

You know, along the lines of making Paladins fall.

Hyozo
2007-11-09, 10:17 AM
I'm a huge fan of repercussions, which you've already been incorporating. He just killed a Cleric of St. Freakin' Cuthbert. The god of VENGEANCE. And he's partying with a guy who just got a Cuthbert Holy Book attached to him. They're in for clerics hunting them (or at least him) down wherever they go.

Now, I normally don't favor killing PCs unless one of two things happens.

A) Good reason, plot hook or somesuch. Used sparingly.

B) They do something REALLY stupid. I mean really, REALLY stupid. I think pissing off the church of the god of vengeance counts.

Not vengeance, retribution. Cas is vengeance, Cuthbert is retribution. Vengeance is usually a hell of a lot more painful/fatal than retribution.

EDIT: My mistake, monks don't lose anything from changing to chaotic.

Tyger
2007-11-09, 10:22 AM
I'm all for letting the characters do as they please, so long as everyone is having fun, and so long as they all remember (and this applies to me as DM as well) the first rule of physics... for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

In other words... consequences. You can not expect to leave a trail of murdered bodies behind you without the local lord rousing the militia, or hiring adventurers to hunt you down. You do not kill a priest, in his temple, moments after the voice of his god has been heard, without getting your ass tracked by a squad of paladins / clerics / grey guard.

Psycho's don't do well in any setting. They are always hunted down, in every real society that has ever existed. The smart / cunning ones can avoid getting caught for a long time, maybe forever, but this character is neither smart nor cunning. He's a loose cannon, and society will deal with him.

That doesn't mean that you have to pull a "rocks fall, everyone dies" scenario though. The above suggestions about paladins of Cuthbert, probably aided by some ranger bounty hunters, tracking this killer down are reasonable and just responses to his behaviour.

Ask yourself one question: What would the local response be if these murders were occuring because of some monster rather than a PC? And therein lies the basis for many, many adventure hooks, most of which revolve around the PCs running like hell from the law. :) Welcome to Shadowrun, D&D style. :smallbiggrin:

elliott20
2007-11-09, 10:30 AM
Err... personally, I would just start sending hunting parties after the players, and start making it a regular thing until the party decides to do something about this.

Don't always send the same type of hunters though. Some are going to be good at what they do, some are not. Some will work in groups, some will not.

Don't make the hunters TOO powerful though. Unless they become such a huge nuisance that they are actually starting to shake up the status quo (which is entirely possible if this player doesn't wise up), chances are, the people going after them won't be too far from their own calibur.

Try this out: first make the St. Cuthburt hunting party. These will be the paladins and clerics of the church. The party might back him up the first couple times. But after they've been hit several times by different militia groups, knights, or bounty hunters who are even MORE amoral than they are, I'm sure they'll start to consider what needs to be done about the character.

remember though, you have to be able to establish this with the player first, so he knows it's not personal. On your next session, declare that your actions have angered many of the local authorities and from this point on it is very likely reprecussions will be met. But make sure they understand it's the way the society works, and that it's not a personal deal towards them. This also means you can't do any "Rocks Fall, everyone dies" routine. If they are to be hunted down, it needs to be by legit tactics and builds.

Having said that, seeing as they are somewhat munchkined out, there is no reason why you shouldn't either. Remember, the weakness of the fighter is mobility and the will save. A clerical archer or a wizard should be more than enough to subdue him.

Clementx
2007-11-09, 11:02 AM
I said up front that I have no problem running this kind of thing, as long as it didn't devolve into the typical "evil party" behavior- you know, wanton murder, baby-eating, and whatnot. This seemed generally acceptable
There is your solution. Inform the player that his character has left the bounds of play as agreed on before the start of the campaign, and it is no longer welcome at the table. The player can make a more-suitable character, if he agrees to stop being Chaotic Retarded.

If the players want to be Mr. White in Reservoir Dogs, good for them. A Mr. Pink can be fun. But Mr. Blonde is only fun when he is happening to someone that is not you.

InkEyes
2007-11-09, 11:19 AM
The monk seems to have a slightly misguided impression of what the adventuring goals of this party are. Try to inform him that the party is going for more of a gray-area party, they act good but leave the impression that there are underlying (probably darker) motives for this. It's not a campaign centering around "OMG, Baby!!" *stab* If he act out of bounds for the party, tell him there will be repercussions. If he still does this stuff, it's time for some bounty hunters and paladins of St. Cuthbert.

toddex
2007-11-09, 01:21 PM
There is your solution. Inform the player that his character has left the bounds of play as agreed on before the start of the campaign, and it is no longer welcome at the table. The player can make a more-suitable character, if he agrees to stop being Chaotic Retarded.

If the players want to be Mr. White in Reservoir Dogs, good for them. A Mr. Pink can be fun. But Mr. Blonde is only fun when he is happening to someone that is not you.


Exactly! The part of my post that it seems most chose to ignore, why not just talk to him about it!? Put things into perspective for him. Throw away the holds of DM and PC for one second and lay some knowledge down.

Dalboz of Gurth
2007-11-09, 01:29 PM
Introduce him to Ravenloft, and something called Powers Checks.

Give him more and more power, and let him hang himself with it.

Make him your "woman" (not badmouthing women here, I like women, I'm talking in "prison terms").

He will learn to correct his evil ways, and if he doesn't, his character is stuck in ravenloft until death do him part (even then, death may not do him part. WUAHAHAHHAHAHHA) :biggrin:


Edit: OOO OOO OOO I have another idea:

Cursed Girdle of Sex Change :D Make it a girdle created by a really high level wizard too so nobody else can disenchant the effects. YEAH BABY!

elliott20
2007-11-09, 01:39 PM
Dalboz: that doesn't sound right to me, man. That just seems arbitrary and really is not much better than a "rocks fall, everyone dies" solution.

tyckspoon
2007-11-09, 02:31 PM
Dalboz: that doesn't sound right to me, man. That just seems arbitrary and really is not much better than a "rocks fall, everyone dies" solution.

That's sort of the purpose of Ravenloft, yes. It's not a happy place.

Miles Invictus
2007-11-09, 02:33 PM
Now, the person playing Psycho Guy is a nice enough guy out of game, and one of my friends. He just seems to have gotten the idea into his head that the party is evil, and has decided to be the most evil bastard on the planet. I don't want to tell him to leave, and my attempts to tell him to tone it down have fallen on deaf ears. What do I do?

"Attempt" to tell him? Subtle hinting doesn't work for everyone. Straight out tell him that his character's psychotic behavior is making it difficult for you to run an enjoyable game, and that he doesn't need to kill everyone he sees to get his character across as evil.

If you feel like indulging him a little bit, however, you could throw in some obviously safe targets. Cowardly bandits who get in over their heads and immediately beg for mercy; haughty merchants who travel the wilderness by themselves and don't even try to hide the fact that they screw over their clients; zealous clergy who've pissed off the locals. People who can legitimately be killed with impunity, either because no one knows that they've been murdered or because no one cares enough to investigate further. That'd allow him to roleplay his character's murderous tendencies without letting it disrupt your game.

By the way, if the dwarven cleric got a minor curse for stealing a goblet, this player should get hit with something pretty bad for actually killing a cleric. I'd go for a retroactive geas -- maybe pay for the cleric's resurrection -- or some sort of appropriate curse, like temporary level drain (e.g. an hour or two) every time he kills something.

Clementx
2007-11-09, 02:37 PM
Throw away the holds of DM and PC for one second and lay some knowledge down.
Not to mention sending bounty hunters and such after him just makes him the center of the adventure, which is just reinforcement for his behavior. I've learned from playing with FATALites- just fade to black over his stupidity, and stick him with the repercussions, and there will be no enjoyment.

CR Player "I want to kill all the hookers!"
DM "You kill them all. Now you have chlamydia and -4 Cha from the face-cutting the pimps managed before you killed them. Moving on..."

Solo
2007-11-09, 03:42 PM
STDs from hookers are always fun.

I'm thinking HIV.

He will never know he has it; He'll just get sick from ordinary diseases more and more often until he dies.

Maybe make it a fast acting version of HIV. Give him AIDS sooner.

Artanis
2007-11-09, 04:21 PM
I agree with the others, except for warning him: he's already been warned. Remember the bit about his face being on wanted posters?

Have a group of good (or at least greedy) adventurers / Cuthbert hitmen / bounty hunters / whatever show up, consult with a sheet of parchment, and say, "hey, there's the guy on the wanted poster! we found him!" and commence with the beatings. If the party wins, the bounty goes up, attracting even more powerful (and increasingly amoral) hunters until they lay low - meaning not needlessly murdering NPCs - long enough to get back below the radar.

Kioran
2007-11-09, 04:46 PM
I agree with the others, except for warning him: he's already been warned. Remember the bit about his face being on wanted posters?

Have a group of good (or at least greedy) adventurers / Cuthbert hitmen / bounty hunters / whatever show up, consult with a sheet of parchment, and say, "hey, there's the guy on the wanted poster! we found him!" and commence with the beatings. If the party wins, the bounty goes up, attracting even more powerful (and increasingly amoral) hunters until they lay low - meaning not needlessly murdering NPCs - long enough to get back below the radar.

Or start increasing the bounty, in lockstep with his career of murder and arson. Somewehre in the future, His head will be worth enough that even the other PCs think of lopping it off, provided they´re not in over their heads - I´ve seen it happen in one of my games. If they´re a gray party, they won´t have that much of a problem with giving a murder his comeuppance and profitting at the same time......

elliott20
2007-11-09, 04:54 PM
yeah, you have to draw the line somewhere. You can just flat out tell him that quite frankly, his character is starting to become very disruptive and very hard to game with for the reason that you're just not prepared to write the game to him. Or, you can rise to the challenge and go with the bounty hunter idea. And also, at some point, have some of the players see how truly amoral this character is. Have posters enumerate all of his crimes such as multiple counts of murder, theft, arson, assault and battery, etc, etc. then, at some point, have some of the more heroic characters have encounters with the law alone where they say that they've made some poor choices in so far as their company goes.

Rolaran
2007-11-09, 04:57 PM
Okay. First off, let me say that I intend to flat out tell the guy that his character needs to dial back the murderous. Whether he does so or not, the clericide is going to have repercussions in-game; the severity of the repercussions depends on how badly he behaves after a direct warning.

I like the paladin retribution squad; I've also been leafing through the monster manuals to see what kinds of lawful outsiders St. C could send to make a point. So far I'm looking at the zelekhut inevitable (mark of justice, lesser geas... :smallbiggrin:), the arcadian avenger from MM5 (flyer versus fighter, and I know for a fact he doesn't have a ranged weapon), or the aleax from Book of Exalted Deeds (since it takes the form of its target, turn his own munchkinning against him...)

Now the reason I like these is because they follow logically from his actions: kill a cleric of a god of law, in a temple devoted to that god, after observing firsthand that said god likes to see consequences for people's actions, he's gotta expect a visit from some actual beings of pure Law. But AIDS? The Belt of Gender Reversal? No. That has no relevance to anything he's done. That amounts to me abusing my DM powers to penalize the guy, and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

So, any tips on how to roll up a paladin strike team? Thoughts on which of the monsters would work best? Lawful outsider monsters I've somehow missed?

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-09, 05:11 PM
My personal opinion:

Never tell a player how to play his or her character, ever. That is not your domain as DM. You run the world characters inhabit; playing the PCs is entirely up to the players, and you have no business telling them how their characters should behave.

That said? As others have stated, actions result in consequences. Leaving a careless trail of bodies in your wake results in serious consequences. This character's life expenctancy should become rapidly as short as that of the various NPCs he's murdered ... not because you're trying to railroad him but simply because he's a sloppy serial killer who's leaving a big fat blood trail that leads right back to him.

Think about the surviving family members of his victims. Think about the organizations they belonged to and the connections they had. Think about the law enforcement organizations that are investigating these murders and the resources they can bring to bear to pursue and capture a criminal. Think about how well he concealed his crimes (did he even attempt to do so) and how much effort it would take to discover the identity of the killer.

From there, your proper course of action should be clear. Don't railroad him, and don't tell him how to play his character, don't even auto-kill him (no rolls, no questions, you're just dead) ... but don't for one moment coddle him, either. Let the logical consequences deal with the issue.

That would be my approach.

Edit: For inspiration, consider the fate of Joe Pesci's psychopathic character in Goodfellas. He wasn't "taken aside" and told not to act that way by some great DM in the sky. Instead, his actions resulted in consequences. It took a while, but they did. And when those consequences came calling, they didn't come in the form of a fair, CR-appropriate encounter; they came in the form of a surprise attack of overwhelming force.

tyckspoon
2007-11-09, 05:17 PM
An aleax feels kind of overkilly to me, but it does have one very useful and relevant trait for this situation- it's going after only one person and nobody else can do much of anything to stop it. With the other options, there's an outside chance that the rest of the party will step in to protect the psycho (it seems unlikely with what has been posted, but it's possible) and that could get messy. The aleax is empowered to outright ignore anybody who isn't its target.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-09, 05:19 PM
My personal opinion:

Never tell a player how to play his or her character, ever. That is not your domain as DM. You run the world characters inhabit; playing the PCs is entirely up to the players, and you have no business telling them how their characters should behave.


My personal differing opinion:

Assuming the players are mature discussing the behavior of the character as disruptive to the group at large is a good idea. As a DM you do, in fact, have every right to set guidelines and barriers for what your players can and cannot do in your game. Discussing it with the problem player, probably starting with something like 'hey man, I need my universe to be consistant. If you keep killing people left and right your character is going to have a lot of enemies waiting for him in dark alleyways' and finishing with 'and it's very difficult to plan out adventures when you keep killing my plot hook npcs!'. The game should be fun for everyone, that includes the DM.

Also, as a player, I'd much rather my DM come over to me and say 'hey, this is causing problems' than start throwing unwinnable situations at me. For one thing, if I feel I need to keep the 'idea' of that character untarnished I can write them out of the story and play a new one without having the old one need to get iced first.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-09, 05:25 PM
Assuming the players are mature discussing the behavior of the character as disruptive to the group at large is a good idea. As a DM you do, in fact, have every right to set guidelines and barriers for what your players can and cannot do in your game. Discussing it with the problem player, probably starting with something like 'hey man, I need my universe to be consistant. If you keep killing people left and right your character is going to have a lot of enemies waiting for him in dark alleyways'

But that's exactly why you include logical consequences. The only difference between your method and the one I espouse is that the former feels like railroading (because it is railroading), while the latter feels like a world of endless possibilities (because it is a world of endless possibilities -- just be prepared for whatever consequences you invite).

Personally, I find a world of endless possibilities far more inspiring than a linear "you shall do as I say" world, between the two. If I want a linear RPG, I can just buy one in the form of a console or computer game, and it'll be better anyway.

Edit: What it comes down to, in my personal opinion, is that if you're going to railroad, you may as well take everyone's character sheets and play by yourself. The only job a player has is playing his or her character. If you're going to take control of that away, why bother having players at all?

Wolf_Shade
2007-11-09, 05:32 PM
My personal opinion:

Never tell a player how to play his or her character, ever. That is not your domain as DM. You run the world characters inhabit; playing the PCs is entirely up to the players, and you have no business telling them how their characters should behave.
No D&D player is an island. It is not about any individual, but about the group and the game. If one player is being a hinderance to that, then every player has the right to comment on it, DM or otherwise.
The DM has further power as the DM is the one running the story. Saying the DM cannot give requirements for the characters is like saying a director cannot tell an actor how to do something. There are of course limits, but if the game is about traditional high fantasy heros it's fully within the rights of the DM to outlaw a Chaotic Evil serial killer as a character concept. So, no, the DM should not tell you to use a sword instead of a great axe, but he has every right to tell you you're playing chaotic stupid and need to stop.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-09, 05:34 PM
But that's exactly why you include logical consequences. The only difference between your method and the one I espouse is that the former feels like railroading (because it is railroading), while the latter feels like a world of endless possibilities (because it is a world of endless possibilities -- just be prepared for whatever consequences you invite).

Personally, I find a world of endless possibilities far more inspiring than a linear "you shall do as I say" world, between the two. If I want a linear RPG, I can just buy one in the form of a console or computer game, and it'll be better anyway.

Yes, but it's a preception thing. It depends upon the game and the players. Some games are set for 'a world of endless possibilities' some want a linear story with planned adventures. It sounds like the group in question wants the latter. Also, it's not one or the other, there are many degrees in bettween playing a linear console game and free form table top gaming (which would be the other extreme). D&D usually tries to strike a balance bettween those two. You know the balance has been sucessfully reached when everyone playing is having a good time. That is clearly not entirely the case in the game at hand, hence the existance of the thread.

And it's not 'do what I say' if you approach the person right it's 'this is disrupting the game, for all our sakes would you please lay off it?' If they are the sort of person that would say 'no, screw yall' then they are also probably the sort of person that's going to get pissed when groups of Paladins and assassians are showing up to kill him every week. It may also tick off the other players, whose characters could get caught in the crossfire.

Jayabalard
2007-11-09, 05:48 PM
I never understood why some DMs were so uptight about players going evil.Because they don't enjoy that style of game... it seems pretty simple to me. It's the same reason why some GM's are uptight about people playing cross-gender romances, or players being munchkins, etc


My personal opinion:

Never tell a player how to play his or her character, ever. That is not your domain as DM. You run the world characters inhabit; playing the PCs is entirely up to the players, and you have no business telling them how their characters should behave./shrug

telling someone "I'm not allowing a character like that in my game; if you want to continue playing in a game that I'm running you can do x, y, and z, but A, B and C are out." is always appropriate.


That said? As others have stated, actions result in consequences. Leaving a careless trail of bodies in your wake results in serious consequences. This character's life expenctancy should become rapidly as short as that of the various NPCs he's murdered ... not because you're trying to railroad him but simply because he's a sloppy serial killer who's leaving a big fat blood trail that leads right back to him.Killing off a party (and therefore, the campaign) because a player is being an asshat (ie, consequences) isn't a good solution to this problem. It's really an out of game problem: A player is playing in a manner that the DM finds unacceptable. It should be dealt without out of game, rather than by just throwing in game consequences at him.

Dalboz of Gurth
2007-11-09, 06:30 PM
Now the reason I like these is because they follow logically from his actions: kill a cleric of a god of law, in a temple devoted to that god, after observing firsthand that said god likes to see consequences for people's actions, he's gotta expect a visit from some actual beings of pure Law. But AIDS? The Belt of Gender Reversal? No. That has no relevance to anything he's done. That amounts to me abusing my DM powers to penalize the guy, and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

It's called Karma, and you are well within your rights to dispense it at this point since the character has not "gotten it".

See here's the problem: relevant punishments aren't having an effect on this guy. You know why? Because he's like a little deviant calculator, thinking to himself:

"If I do this, what's the worst that can happen to me?"

By giving him punishments that aren't relevant he learns fear, and fear will put him in his place.

Or, you can do what I originally suggested, and send him to Ravenloft.

You see, the Mists of Ravenloft especially like to grab people who are more or less committing evil for the sake of evil. They gain power from their evil. And the punishments Ravenloft distribute are far more appropriate for their crime.

You take out someone's eye, you are given a powers check, more power = more evil, and then you are punished. The rest of your party is usually free to go.


So, any tips on how to roll up a paladin strike team? Thoughts on which of the monsters would work best? Lawful outsider monsters I've somehow missed?

So you're going to reward him by giving him more opportunity to gain EXP, Gold and other valuables? A strike team like the one you suggest is only going to give him more fun, unless it's a forced encounter that he cannot avoid or resist (in which case you're abusing your powers just as bad as if you had stuck a girdle of sex change on him).



It's all up to you of course, but don't dismiss all your options or you'll find your ability to handle this player is severely limited.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-09, 06:47 PM
So you're going to reward him by giving him more opportunity to gain EXP, Gold and other valuables? A strike team like the one you suggest is only going to give him more fun, unless it's a forced encounter that he cannot avoid or resist (in which case you're abusing your powers just as bad as if you had stuck a girdle of sex change on him).

There's absolutely no obligation to make it CR-appropriate, or even close to CR-appropriate. In fact, in a world with a lot of significant powers, it isn't even logical that it would be CR-appropriate.

Let's jump to the (almost) real world for a moment. Say I'm a mercenary or an assassin-for-hire or whatever. Or even a police officer or a member of the Mafia. As long as I keep it sensible, I can probably do my job, whatever it is, and stay within the boundaries of my abilities, for the most part, usually.

Now let's say I decide I'm invincible. Ha, no one can stop me. I can do whatever I want! So I kill people indiscrimately, making no effort to conceal my crimes. I leave a trail of blood and gore that even Inspector Clouseau could follow. There's an entire U.S. government out there that frowns on this sort of behavior, but psh, what can they do?

What do you suppose will happen to me?

Will I continue to receive CR-appropriate encounters?

Now, you can just yank the player aside, sure. Or you can drop the gargantuan 20-sided die of death on his character. Both "solve" the problem, but what do either do for the verisimilitude of your gameworld? Mass murderers ... get yanked aside by DMs and told to be good? Yesh, I feel the immersion. xD

Randalor
2007-11-09, 07:22 PM
One solution I didn't see mentioned here is: You have wanted posters up for this character. Make them "Dead or alive" and a high value *say... roughly the WBL for a party of 4 at that level* and let the other players deal with the problem in-game. If he complains, point out that he himself made the bounty so high through his actions as a mass-murderer, and the rest of the party was just cashing in on it :smallbiggrin:

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-09, 07:26 PM
One solution I didn't see mentioned here is: You have wanted posters up for this character. Make them "Dead or alive" and a high value *say... roughly the WBL for a party of 4 at that level* and let the other players deal with the problem in-game. If he complains, point out that he himself made the bounty so high through his actions as a mass-murderer, and the rest of the party was just cashing in on it :smallbiggrin:

For some reason, this reminds me of the movie Ransom.

"... I'm offering this money as a reward on your head. Dead or alive, it doesn't matter. So congratulations, you've just become a two million dollar lottery ticket ..."

WrstDmEvr
2007-11-09, 09:08 PM
Maybe start by ingame setting a curfew, to protect people(at least, use that reason) and posting police stations around key areas(merchants, etc.) to respond to a murder. Then, you could hike it up to armed guards patrolling the streets, and eventually maybe even a squad of commandos from some more important place to keep the peace. Or, create a war or something and put a high tax on steel, maybe even conscript them into the army.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-09, 09:26 PM
If worst comes to worst, show him FATAL. He'll obey you after that.


But then again, forcing someone to read FATAL is only equalled to the pain of hearing Heal The World 24/7.