A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

[Tvtyrant]

Hi everyone! It's BACK! WOOOH!

Stuff sucks, Procer is dying and we are shifting focus to Praes.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm kind of surprised Malicia is surprised that Cat didn't do what Malicia expected. Cat's been doing unexpected things for quite some time, after all. It seems odd that Malicia, who's supposed to be very smart, would assume that Cat would take the obvious approach. Perhaps the villian-who-is-about-to-win thing is warping her thinking? On the other hand Malicia has made mistakes before, most notably by thinking she'd be able to actually benefit by holding onto Akua's superweapon. Perhaps she's just not quite as clever as she's made out to be.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm kind of surprised Malicia is surprised that Cat didn't do what Malicia expected. Cat's been doing unexpected things for quite some time, after all. It seems odd that Malicia, who's supposed to be very smart, would assume that Cat would take the obvious approach. Perhaps the villian-who-is-about-to-win thing is warping her thinking? On the other hand Malicia has made mistakes before, most notably by thinking she'd be able to actually benefit by holding onto Akua's superweapon. Perhaps she's just not quite as clever as she's made out to be.

A think Malicia's problem is she thinks she is the protagonist. She's being deliberately contrasted with Cordelia here to show a good ruler vs a bad one, how Cordelia would die happily if her country survived and Malicia is ruminating on how she has successfully ruined her country in a long civil war so she can come out on top.

The center piece of Malicia's plan is the assumption that if she is involved Keter will lose the war. Despite references to a time wiped war where Praes already lost, and Keter having just beaten almost everyone else at the same time.

Cordelia: I would sacrifice myself to save Procer, and sacrifice Procer to save the world.
Malicia: I would sacrifice the world to save Praes, and sacrifice Praes to save my throne.

[Mith]

A minor note from the current chapter that was brought up earlier in other places: I wonder if there are going to be parallels drawn between Cat's table and Malicia's "building and Empress' table'. Granted, Cat does use the table, so it may be a moot point, but stands out to me.

[halfeye]

Seems to have turned out nice again.

[Forum Explorer]

What happened to the other thread? :smallconfused:


Anyways, I am pretty interested to see how Cat manages this war without it turning into a total ****-storm. Particularly since Malicia is theoretically offering her what she wants in the first place.

[DaedalusMkV]

What happened to the other thread? :smallconfused:

80 days with no posts, I should expect. 45 days is the limit for thread necromancy. I suppose someone could probably have asked for, and gotten, an exemption since it wasn't that much over the limit and it was due to a hiatus in the webnovel, but it's probably easier just to start a new thread anyways.

[halfeye]

Action ...

Now waiting for the first serious setback to arrive, hopefully will be a while, but who knows?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

She's traded a diplomatic loss and a hefty chunk of gold for the life of Squire and a Sword of Damocles over the head of the current Black Knight. All in all, could have gone a lot worse.

I forget; is it even possible for a Named locked into a pattern of three to be slain by someone other than their adversary (or a demon)?

EDIT: Granted, it's not a pattern of three until they get a draw. And even then, IIRC the Bard points out that Black would have killed Heiress had he known she'd set up a pattern of three with Cat by scoring a draw, implying it's possible for the story to be snuffed out.

[The Glyphstone]

And the food. Dont forget the food, because that was always her primary goal in the first place.

[tyckspoon]

I forget; is it even possible for a Named locked into a pattern of three to be slain by someone other than their adversary (or a demon)?



Certainly, if the participants are determined enough to get themselves killed some other way or are subjected to an outside actor who is strong enough to bulldoze past the story. The actors in the pattern would certainly get a narrative boost toward resolving it/getting through things that try to stop them from playing it out - a Hero headed toward their destined victory over their rival Villain would probably get at least one emotional 'No, I can't be stopped here, I have a more important thing to do!' moment in a situation that should have killed them, for example - but it's just a boost. Inexperienced or weak Named manage to lose while being story-boosted all the time.

[Thomas Cardew]

She's traded a diplomatic loss and a hefty chunk of gold for the life of Squire and a Sword of Damocles over the head of the current Black Knight. All in all, could have gone a lot worse.

I forget; is it even possible for a Named locked into a pattern of three to be slain by someone other than their adversary (or a demon)?

EDIT: Granted, it's not a pattern of three until they get a draw. And even then, IIRC the Bard points out that Black would have killed Heiress had he known she'd set up a pattern of three with Cat by scoring a draw, implying it's possible for the story to be snuffed out.

Black also explicitly didn't try to deal with William on his own in the first book because Black knew that William had a pattern of three going with Cat and he couldn't interfere. And that was before the draw.

Black had not even bothered to try tracking the Swordsman after his run-in with Catherine: the confrontation had initiated a pattern of three, and the hero was therefore beyond his reach. The only person who could feasibly kill him now was Squire, unfortunate as that was. Epilogue Book I

It's really up to authorial fiat what forms a pattern of three and what doesn't. We don't have a good Watsonian explanation for it. Only a Doylist.

[halfeye]

Well that's inconvenient.

[InvisibleBison]

What are the odds that the two remaining waterbreathing potions get shattered at some point during their escapades? Before the Bard showed up I thought it was a sure thing, but now there are lots of other ways for things to go wrong. Still, I'd put it at least 50%.

[Thomas Cardew]

What are the odds that the two remaining waterbreathing potions get shattered at some point during their escapades? Before the Bard showed up I thought it was a sure thing, but now there are lots of other ways for things to go wrong. Still, I'd put it at least 50%.

That seems to be much less of a problem now, they control the source of the water stream and their presence is already known. Secrecy isn't a priority anymore so any number of prearranged signals could tell the army to blow the aqueduct. That would solve the water problem fairly quickly.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

What are the odds that the two remaining waterbreathing potions get shattered at some point during their escapades? Before the Bard showed up I thought it was a sure thing, but now there are lots of other ways for things to go wrong. Still, I'd put it at least 50%.


That seems to be much less of a problem now, they control the source of the water stream and their presence is already known. Secrecy isn't a priority anymore so any number of prearranged signals could tell the army to blow the aqueduct. That would solve the water problem fairly quickly.

Yeah. I give it 50/50 odds on whether they get shattered during this adventure, causing Cat to curse vehemently about how expensive the damn things were, or survive to become a Chekhov's Gun.

[Mith]

Yeah. I give it 50/50 odds on whether they get shattered during this adventure, causing Cat to curse vehemently about how expensive the damn things were, or survive to become a Chekhov's Gun.

I wonder if they will have to do a different route, since 'aquatic devils' are a known resource Wolof has. Cat probably won't pick up a 'road to Nowhere' trick that slips herself past the wards, but I do expect that we do see her achieve her objectives here. Just with a lute version of Yakkity Sax playing in the background.

Of course it would be fun to see something like 'Akua couldn't escape, so she just took over Wolof instead.' in the fashion of the Chinese general who failed at a mission, knew that returning to the capital would mean death, so instead went into rebellion and became emperor.

Since when the 'Everdark crew' gets together, they achieve their objectives in a way that none of them ever saw coming, but in a way that greatly exceeds expectations, so they really cannot complain.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

New chapter up, with a rather fascinating look at Praesi culture/ideology.

[Rydiro]

Akuas arc is the best thing about this story. I hope she doesn't get killed off at the end. Though i fear thats what is going to happen. The easy way out.

[Mith]

Akuas arc is the best thing about this story. I hope she doesn't get killed off at the end. Though i fear thats what is going to happen. The easy way out.

I don't the PGtE is about the 'easy way out' though.

[The Glyphstone]

There is also the Long Price to consider. I find it vanishingly unlikely that Akua will be alive when the story draws to its end, but simply dying/being killed won't be enough to satisfy Cat for what she did at Liesse. My money is on Redemption Equals Death right now via voluntary Heroic Sacrifice, but that is also very predictable so I'm not betting heavy.

[Tvtyrant]

There is also the Long Price to consider. I find it vanishingly unlikely that Akua will be alive when the story draws to its end, but simply dying/being killed won't be enough to satisfy Cat for what she did at Liesse. My money is on Redemption Equals Death right now via voluntary Heroic Sacrifice, but that is also very predictable so I'm not betting heavy.

My long shot guess is Akua is forced to take Bard's name as her eternal redemption.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm going with Akua becoming the seal keeping the Dead King in the Hells.

[Tvtyrant]

The ocean's 11 arc continues! I'm thinking all of the big mistakes come from their attempt at escaping, no way things continue this smoothly now that they are inside.

[InvisibleBison]

The ocean's 11 arc continues! I'm thinking all of the big mistakes come from their attempt at escaping, no way things continue this smoothly now that they are inside.

Yeah, things are definitely about to go wrong. The infiltration has worked so far because it's the first step of a villain's plan. Now, though, all bets are off.

[Rydiro]

I'm going with Akua becoming the seal keeping the Dead King in the Hells.I think becoming a good person, despite there being no redemption to be had would be an interesting conclusion. Doing it, because its the right thing to do, not for some prize. And please without the hollow emo-ness of Contrition.

[The Glyphstone]

I think becoming a good person, despite there being no redemption to be had would be an interesting conclusion. Doing it, because its the right thing to do, not for some prize. And please without the hollow emo-ness of Contrition.

I think that's the crux of it. Akua has to become a good person on her own merits, then punished for the Folly. Otherwise it won't hurt enough, because she still won't feel she did anything wrong.

[Rydiro]

Akua has to become a good person on her own merits, then punished for the Folly. Otherwise it won't hurt enough, because she still won't feel she did anything wrong.That is a very Callowan sentiment. Akua hurting after she becomes a good person will help absolutely no one. At that point you just punish her for becoming good. Which is a bad message to send.
Sometimes Justice is impossible. And it wouldn't diminish Cat if her long-time revenge plot fails and produces a good person instead of meaningless revenge.

[The Glyphstone]

That is a very Callowan sentiment. Akua hurting after she becomes a good person will help absolutely no one. At that point you just punish her for becoming good. Which is a bad message to send.
Sometimes Justice is impossible. And it wouldn't diminish Cat if her long-time revenge plot fails and produces a good person instead of meaningless revenge.

No, but that doesn't mean it still isn't her goal. Like you said, its a very Callowan outlook. Akua/Cat are Praesi and Callow personified, as we see every time they have a discussion. She might fail, but I think its what her Long Price is aiming at.

[tyckspoon]

That is a very Callowan sentiment. Akua hurting after she becomes a good person will help absolutely no one. At that point you just punish her for becoming good. Which is a bad message to send.
Sometimes Justice is impossible. And it wouldn't diminish Cat if her long-time revenge plot fails and produces a good person instead of meaningless revenge.

My read on it is that becoming a good person is the punishment for the Folly, because hypothetical good Akua would be capable of understanding the wrong she did and empathizing with her victims along the way. Cat will not need to subject Akua to any further punishments at that point - Akua will come to the understanding on her own that while there is no atonement, she still must try. The personal torment she'll place on herself to try to achieve an impossible goal will theoretically exceed anything Cat could do to her. (If she were to become a Hero, this actually would align her neatly with Contrition. She would almost certainly reject the offer, tho, since even hypothetical redemption-seeking Akua is not going to subject herself to the whims of Angels.)

(I don't think this was Cat's original plan, but then I don't think Cat had an original plan in this regard - she was just keeping Akua around to use as a tool until some suitably grand punishment occurred to her, and then character development happened.)

[Rydiro]

The potion thing was one of malicias most illogical diabolus ex machinas. How can you trick THE CONCOCTOR on her masterpiece? You dont even know enough about what she does. How do you make sure Cat uses the good potions on the way in and not the ineffective ones?Also boo, barred bonus chapters.

[Tvtyrant]

The potion thing was one of malicias most illogical diabolus ex machinas. How can you trick THE CONCOCTOR on her masterpiece? You dont even know enough about what she does. How do you make sure Cat uses the good potions on the way in and not the ineffective ones?Also boo, barred bonus chapters.

Because the narrative guided Cat's hand to the right potion is the in universe answer.

One thing I love about the different chapter intro quotes is they show you the rules of narration were discovered by trial and error. People were throwing people off ledges and noticing they weren't dying over the course of thousands of years.

[Rydiro]

Because the narrative guided Cat's hand to the right potion is the in universe answer.

One thing I love about the different chapter intro quotes is they show you the rules of narration were discovered by trial and error. People were throwing people off ledges and noticing they weren't dying over the course of thousands of years. As I understand it, the stories which the common folks tell directly shape creation. The heroes that survived were vividly talked about, which led to more heroes surviving. Chicken and egg, really.
This whole episode nicely had the same narrative structure Black explained way back "What to expect when entering a villains lair."

[Tvtyrant]

As I understand it, the stories which the common folks tell directly shape creation. The heroes that survived were vividly talked about, which led to more heroes surviving. Chicken and egg, really.
This whole episode nicely had the same narrative structure Black explained way back "What to expect when entering a villains lair."

That's how Names work for sure. But if narrative worked that way you could change the rules by just spreading enough rumors and propaganda.

[Rydiro]

That's how Names work for sure. But if narrative worked that way you could change the rules by just spreading enough rumors and propaganda.That is the goal of the Cats accords. Rig the game so that people "know" the rulebreakers/superweapons always fail. Which brings a self-reinforcing story-pattern on creation. Subsequent rulebreakers will find it harder and harder to pull off their stunts.

[InvisibleBison]

That is the goal of the Cats accords. Rig the game so that people "know" the rulebreakers/superweapons always fail. Which brings a self-reinforcing story-pattern on creation. Subsequent rulebreakers will find it harder and harder to pull off their stunts.

Where are you getting that from? As far as I can recall, the goal of the Accords has always been presented as regulating the behavior of Named. I don't think Cat said anything about trying to create a story shift even when she was discussing the Accords with Black, who'd be the most likely to actually understand the concept.

[Rydiro]

Where are you getting that from?If I could just find the chapter...
As far as I remember it was one of the earlier ones. Admittedly, it was more of a side effect of the accords that long-term superweapons would be doomed to fail by story.

[AmberVael]

That is in fact a purpose of the Accords. Hanno is actually the one who picks up on it.

“If the flying fortress crowd and the Contrition-ritual crowd always die, always fail? People will remember that,” I quietly agreed. “Gods know it’ll be public enough when the hammer’s brought down. And when it’s been happening for long enough, well, everyone will ‘know’ that sort of thing doesn’t work. Same way heroes don’t die when they’re thrown down cliffs or villains don’t get beaten on the first step of their plan.”

It's part of their conversation during their very first meeting.

https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2019/09/13/chapter-75-analog/

[Mith]

I think that the effect of 'everyone knows these things happen' is an effect of the fact that Creation is a wager of the Gods. So if Above is allowed to save Heroes from dying form falling off cliffs ('They are not dead until you have a corpse') then Below gets something in exchange. Over time, these quirks of narrative become the the 'common arguments' that are no longer contested.

The Accords is a institution that forces the 'rules' to be rewritten. Below aligns well with it because it is hte mortals self actualizing beyond what the Gods have given them, and Above can see merit in binding the Named to laws that lie at least in part with the the Laws of the Heavens.

I know that no one 'speaks for the Heavens' in a way to get the Gods perspective on this, but I do think there is some merit with Tariq's reflection on the Accords to deem them acceptable. Since if Mercy accepts it, then at least some of the virtues that Above seeks would arise from this as well.

In a way, it's not surprising that Cordellia and Cat are so close in alignment on many things and yet so diametrically opposed in others. The scope of what they wish to achieve (The setting of boundaries and rules on a continent wide accord) are the same. Hells, Cat's use of the War on Keter to bind the Accords is the same reasoning as Cordelia using the Crusade against Callow and Praes in this framework.

[Rydiro]

That is in fact a purpose of the Accords. Hanno is actually the one who picks up on it.
It's part of their conversation during their very first meeting.
https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2019/09/13/chapter-75-analog/Thanks AmberVael. How did you find it?

[Mith]

Thanks AmberVael. How did you find it?

Potentially by just having the major moments of the story memorized in terms of what else was happening around that time. I know I apprently can pull some pretty minor scenes out that way.

[AmberVael]

My memory is good at stuff like this. That said, I also just completed a full reread, so everything is pretty fresh in my mind.

[The Glyphstone]

The only thing that frustrates me about Practical Guide is the lack of any sort of practical index or search. The chapter titles are fun but its impossible to easily go back and re read stuff like this.

[Thomas Cardew]

If you can remember a specific line from the scene you're interested in, I've had decent success with a site specific Google search.

[halfeye]

And with a single bound, she was free.

[The Glyphstone]

Apparently they underestimate Cat as much as they do her father/teacher.

[Tvtyrant]

I guess her Name trumps the Empress' Name. That's some fire power, the DE is one of the strongest Names as far as I know.

[The Glyphstone]

I guess her Name trumps the Empress' Name. That's some fire power, the DE is one of the strongest Names as far as I know.

Considering the Dead King is all but regarded as a god, and he considers her an eventual peer to himself, yeah. She's going to be a powerhouse.

Plus, Malicia was pitting Name vs. Name at a disadvantage, because Rule specifically gives her dominion over non-Named. Catherine is technically not Named, but her building Name is, at this point, clearly something with authority over other Named. So even in its slumbering state, it's reflexively fighting back with the advantage.

[Mith]

Well those two bombshells landed more or less where I had expected hem too and still blew me away.

1) I had figured Assassin was a puppet managed by Scribe. Vivienne's description of her encounter with them had a lot of hints of Scribe-esque features (hints of Fade), and when Assassin has been explicitly depicted on screen, (especially with his death at Second Liesse), there were similarities to that and corpse puppets we have seen elsewhere in the series. What I am curious about is if Scribe has to retrieve the body every time, or does she at some point have it just return to her with it's new mutations (basically it's a genetic algorithm approaching the 'perfect' assassin.)

2) And now the final stage of Cat's plan is enacted in all it's bloody glory. We love to hate to see it.

By final stage, I mean that now Akua is on her own at the top of the hill deciding which way she will go. She got one last time by the fire, but now the hearth has gone cold. Cat has no influence over what Akua does now.

There is interesting point that 'The Girl who Climbed the Tower' seems to align very close to Akua's own path at the moment, potentially indicating that she will climb the Tower as her own person, and that Cat's plan for Black to take the Tower will not bear fruition.

[Tvtyrant]

Well those two bombshells landed more or less where I had expected hem too and still blew me away.

1) I had figured Assassin was a puppet managed by Scribe. Vivienne's description of her encounter with them had a lot of hints of Scribe-esque features (hints of Fade), and when Assassin has been explicitly depicted on screen, (especially with his death at Second Liesse), there were similarities to that and corpse puppets we have seen elsewhere in the series. What I am curious about is if Scribe has to retrieve the body every time, or does she at some point have it just return to her with it's new mutations (basically it's a genetic algorithm approaching the 'perfect' assassin.)

2) And now the final stage of Cat's plan is enacted in all it's bloody glory. We love to hat to see it.

1. I totally missed the beats on this one, caught me entirely by surprise. I was expecting assassin to just be Ranger tbh.

2. This scene was so painful I wish it had been its own chapter, because it overshadows everything else.

[Mith]

1. I totally missed the beats on this one, caught me entirely by surprise. I was expecting assassin to just be Ranger tbh.

2. This scene was so painful I wish it had been its own chapter, because it overshadows everything else.

On the other hand, this mirrors Cat's previous interaction with Killian as I recall: an aside after good times with friends, with the bindings cut quick and clean. I don't know what more would need to be said between them.

And I would think the overshadowing is part of the point. All the interesting lore/fun fire side interactions smothered in a few paragraphs.

[Tvtyrant]

On the other hand, this mirrors Cat's previous interaction with Killian as I recall: an aside after good times with friends, with the bindings cut quick and clean. I don't know what more would need to be said between them.

And I would think the overshadowing is part of the point. All the interesting lore/fun fire side interactions smothered in a few paragraphs.

She even calls back to her conversation with Killian in this conversation so we know the link is being made deliberately.

Yeah, but since the author adheres to conservation of details and peppers later plot points into these chats, I would prefer my emotional response be separated a bit. I'm not goin to recall anything from the sideplots in this chapter.

[Mith]

She even calls back to her conversation with Killian in this conversation so we know the link is being made deliberately.

Yeah, but since the author adheres to conservation of details and peppers later plot points into these chats, I would prefer my emotional response be separated a bit. I'm not goin to recall anything from the sideplots in this chapter.

That's entirely fair. I'm usually good at keeping track of those details, but I do see what you mean about keeping key events separate to keep things separate. I think I am looking at this more from a final book perspective, where I think the one-two sitting read of a novel makes it easier to retain information than the webserial method. Plus, I am pretty sure Maseago will have more insight into Assassin as well, so those details will be revisited to refresh the readers memory and improve our understanding of the other bits of information.

[Rydiro]

Did Akua just become good to boink Cat or did I misread something here?

[Tvtyrant]

Did Akua just become good to boink Cat or did I misread something here?
I think it is more she fell legitimately in love with Cat as she became less evil. Remember she loved her Dad, which was the only part of her life untainted by competition. Essentially Akua pretended to be less evil to try to weasel out of her situation, but as she did she became better and more vulnerable, and Cat rewarded her vulnerability with companionship and hope. Then once Akua was fully vulnerable Cat slapped her down, hurting her in a way that killing her never could. The side problem is, Cat loves Akua as well and didn't expect to.

Basically as I see it: Akua was always attracted to Cat, and saw it as a game. Then she proved she was loyal to Cat when Cat was beaten by the Twins and she fought deities so protect her. Then Cat freed Akua, and Akua was free to turn her interest into love. By this time she had become a better person, and she focused that into Cat. Cat was in a sense her hope of being forgiven, if Cat forgave her she could forgive herself. But Cat denies her, and now she is left with no room but to look full open her actions.

[Forum Explorer]

You know, when Cat swore that her revenge against Akua would be talked about in song for a thousand years, I didn't expect it to be because of the tragic romance. :smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

You know, when Cat swore that her revenge against Akua would be talked about in song for a thousand years, I didn't expect it to be because of the tragic romance. :smallbiggrin:
Cordelia agrees apparently :P

So things are double ++ bad as we knew, and the war effort is doomed. We are going to test the angel gun and see how it works.

[Rydiro]

You know, when Cat swore that her revenge against Akua would be talked about in song for a thousand years, I didn't expect it to be because of the tragic romance. :smallbiggrin:Sigh ... Akua making the dumb choice and falling for the betrayal trap. Instead of leaving this dumpster fire to begin a life of her own.
At least Kilian made the smart choice of abandoning the control-freak Cat.
I guess this will lead to interestig character-development for Akua, but i thought she was further than this on the road to not-capital good.

[Mith]

Sigh ... Akua making the dumb choice and falling for the betrayal trap. Instead of leaving this dumpster fire to begin a life of her own.
At least Kilian made the smart choice of abandoning the control-freak Cat.
I guess this will lead to interestig character-development for Akua, but i thought she was further than this on the road to not-capital good.

I mean, she still thought that the death of the boy who showed her the cave was a humourous aside...

[Tvtyrant]

Alright, so we have the classic setup in place. A bunch of actors moving towards each other, all but one with scrutable actions and motives. Ranger's probably going to try to kill Masego to "fix" Archer and Cat is going to try and stop her.

[Mith]

Alright, so we have the classic setup in place. A bunch of actors moving towards each other, all but one with scrutable actions and motives. Ranger's probably going to try to kill Masego to "fix" Archer and Cat is going to try and stop her.

What I think would be an interesting twist is if Cat instead sets her formal table up in the middle of the battlefield and just has people sit down and talk.

She'll have Nim at the table first (and could potentially drag the Rebel Legions to the table if she wished), and then the leaders just talk.

We have Akua mentally criticize Malicia for not sitting down and just discussing what each other's interests were. Having her show up to fight Callowan army and have it instead be a peace conference would further drive the point home. Especially if things evolve with the Orcs such that they can be used as a point that it is more advantageous to have a seat at the table then not. Perhaps to the point that Hakram uses Find like Indrani's See to find and guide the Orc host to this battle ground through Twilight. A great "arrival of an allied host" to be Cat's stick to the carrot.

I guess I agree general assessment that this upcoming battle seems to be such a bloody and empty fight.

Since Sepulchral has broken off communications, she loses this opportunity to be in on the ground floor.

[Tvtyrant]

What I think would be an interesting twist is if Cat instead sets her formal table up in the middle of the battlefield and just has people sit down and talk.

She'll have Nim at the table first (and could potentially drag the Rebel Legions to the table if she wished), and then the leaders just talk.

We have Akua mentally criticize Malicia for not sitting down and just discussing what each other's interests were. Having her show up to fight Callowan army and have it instead be a peace conference would further drive the point home. Especially if things evolve with the Orcs such that they can be used as a point that it is more advantageous to have a seat at the table then not. Perhaps to the point that Hakram uses Find like Indrani's See to find and guide the Orc host to this battle ground through Twilight. A great "arrival of an allied host" to be Cat's stick to the carrot.

I guess I agree general assessment that this upcoming battle seems to be such a bloody and empty fight.

Since Sepulchral has broken off communications, she loses this opportunity to be in on the ground floor.

My assumption is if Amadeus declared pretty much everyone would flip over to him, but he needs a 5 man band to kill the emerald swords for him so he's trying to get Named together before he declares. Having him show up, declare himself at a peace conference, and then make them fight off the elves for him seems entirely up his alley. The Ranger foreshadoing implies there is going to be some kind of armed conflict between him and Cat, but what kind we don't know yet.

[Forum Explorer]

My assumption is if Amadeus declared pretty much everyone would flip over to him, but he needs a 5 man band to kill the emerald swords for him so he's trying to get Named together before he declares. Having him show up, declare himself at a peace conference, and then make them fight off the elves for him seems entirely up his alley. The Ranger foreshadoing implies there is going to be some kind of armed conflict between him and Cat, but what kind we don't know yet.

My assumption is that Amadeus is planning on destroying the Tower entirely and permanently. He doesn't intend to conquer Praes, he intends to break it, and kill the concept of Dread Emperor/Empress.

[DaedalusMkV]

My assumption is that Amadeus is planning on destroying the Tower entirely and permanently. He doesn't intend to conquer Praes, he intends to break it, and kill the concept of Dread Emperor/Empress.

I'm operating on the same assumption. He's got a whole heap of Goblinfire and a backdoor into Ater while everyone else is fighting elsewhere and all the attention will be there. What else could he be planning? My assumption is that we get to the big, climactic battle scene only for the horizon to light up like a nuclear bomb, Cat says 'Honestly, it's not me, I barely even do Goblinfire any more!' and Amadeus shows up with a proclamation that Praes is now a federal democracy and anyone who has a problem with that can take it up with the smoking hole that used to be the Tower. I still have his endgame pegged as 'Villain instructor at Cat's future Named academy', after all (for reference, I see Hanno as Hero Instructor for much that same reason). Dread Emperor Benevolent, while an amusing bit of irony, wouldn't fit with that.

[The Glyphstone]

He will need more than that. I know it was mentioned at least once in the story so far that the Tower has been physically demolished before. But it was always rebuilt, even bigger than the last time.

[Forum Explorer]

He will need more than that. I know it was mentioned at least once in the story so far that the Tower has been physically demolished before. But it was always rebuilt, even bigger than the last time.

That's why the goblin fire. He isn't going to just demolish it, he's going to burn every bit of it with something that can destroy a Name's Aspect.

Also I imagine he isn't concerned about collateral damage, and so Ater is also going to suffer massive amounts of damage. And that's where the conflict comes in with Cat. He knows she's trying to take Praes relatively intact, and would be opposed to the slaughter of so many people.

[Tvtyrant]

Somehow I missed that foreshadowing, my reading abilities have declined over the course of covid and working full time :/

One thing I am hoping will come up is the time demon mentioned earlier in the story. Praes lost a war with Keter and then destroyed that timeline to keep from being crushed, and while that might have been a Gnome style throwaway it would be interesting to see if Malicia pulls it out of the hat.

[Thomas Cardew]

Alright, so we have the classic setup in place. A bunch of actors moving towards each other, all but one with scrutable actions and motives. Ranger's probably going to try to kill Masego to "fix" Archer and Cat is going to try and stop her.

I'd be surprised if she targets Masego. 1) We already saw that with the Dead King, it'd being repeating the same story beat. 2) Ranger likely doesn't have a problem with Archer and Masego, she could care less about that. She has a problem with Archer subordinating herself to Cat. Besides, we've already seen her want to kill Cat, to hunt her for the challenge of it.


That's why the goblin fire. He isn't going to just demolish it, he's going to burn every bit of it with something that can destroy a Name's Aspect.
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Also I imagine he isn't concerned about collateral damage, and so Ater is also going to suffer massive amounts of damage. And that's where the conflict comes in with Cat. He knows she's trying to take Praes relatively intact, and would be opposed to the slaughter of so many people.

Say what? Goblinfire didn't destroy Cat's aspect, the demon of corruption did. Or rather Masego did after the demon corrupted it. Have we ever seen an aspect destroyed outside of that? I don't think so. Black's probably planning on attacking the tower and slaughtering as many high lords as he can, but I doubt he can/wants to destroy the Tower. The idea of him establishing a democracy is laughable. He's a dictator through and through. The idea of peacefully accepting the outcome even if he loses is about as anathema of concept to him as possible.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd be surprised if she targets Masego. 1) We already saw that with the Dead King, it'd being repeating the same story beat. 2) Ranger likely doesn't have a problem with Archer and Masego, she could care less about that. She has a problem with Archer subordinating herself to Cat. Besides, we've already seen her want to kill Cat, to hunt her for the challenge of it.



Say what? Goblinfire didn't destroy Cat's aspect, the demon of corruption did. Or rather Masego did after the demon corrupted it. Have we ever seen an aspect destroyed outside of that? I don't think so. Black's probably planning on attacking the tower and slaughtering as many high lords as he can, but I doubt he can/wants to destroy the Tower. The idea of him establishing a democracy is laughable. He's a dictator through and through. The idea of peacefully accepting the outcome even if he loses is about as anathema of concept to him as possible.

When Cat was talking to Scribe, she mentioned how the animated Aspect "Assassin" could be destroyed permanently by goblinfire.

[DaedalusMkV]

Say what? Goblinfire didn't destroy Cat's aspect, the demon of corruption did. Or rather Masego did after the demon corrupted it. Have we ever seen an aspect destroyed outside of that? I don't think so. Black's probably planning on attacking the tower and slaughtering as many high lords as he can, but I doubt he can/wants to destroy the Tower. The idea of him establishing a democracy is laughable. He's a dictator through and through. The idea of peacefully accepting the outcome even if he loses is about as anathema of concept to him as possible.

Goblinfire can theoretically destroy anything. That's what it does. It burns using the essence of the world as fuel, which is why it burns magic as easily as anything else, and can destroy even 'indestructible' things. The whole point of Goblinfire is that nothing is safe from it, period. It could wipe the Tower entirely from existence.

As for the Democracy bit... A bit of glibness on my part, though I will say that Amadeus isn't a dictator per se. He's an authoritarian. He believes firmly in a hierarchy and the rule of law, but doesn't necessarily have a problem with independent thought as long as it doesn't threaten the structure as a whole and prefers systems where capable individuals can rise through the ranks. He's never been shown having a problem with someone exceeding the bounds of his orders, or even going against them, if they had information he didn't and were doing it to further goals he ultimately agreed with. I expect his vision of a better Praes is probably something along the lines of 'ruling council made up of representatives from each region of Praes along with the high commanders of the Legions and maybe a couple of other institutions', with the full intention of establishing a meritocratic hierarchy in each individual piece of the system. Because yeah, he doesn't necessarily want to enfranchise the common person. He just wants to get rid of the Dread Emperors and the nobility and slightly decentralize the ultimate authority of Praes. His goal was always a future where organizations hold the power, not Names, and some sort of Federal system is probably the best way to achieve that given what we've seen of Praes.

[Tvtyrant]

I do wonder if smiting the location where something is destroyed by goblinfire would restore the idea of the thing. Smites reset the world's factory default, so it would be interesting to see how they interact.

[Thomas Cardew]

@Glyphstone

Thanks I went back and reread that section. It's educated speculation on cat's part and has to do with the specific nature of Inscribe/ assassin. So probably true, but not necessarily generalizable to other aspects.


Goblinfire can theoretically destroy anything. That's what it does. It burns using the essence of the world as fuel, which is why it burns magic as easily as anything else, and can destroy even 'indestructible' things. The whole point of Goblinfire is that nothing is safe from it, period. It could wipe the Tower entirely from existence.

As for the Democracy bit... A bit of glibness on my part, though I will say that Amadeus isn't a dictator per se. He's an authoritarian. He believes firmly in a hierarchy and the rule of law, but doesn't necessarily have a problem with independent thought as long as it doesn't threaten the structure as a whole and prefers systems where capable individuals can rise through the ranks. He's never been shown having a problem with someone exceeding the bounds of his orders, or even going against them, if they had information he didn't and were doing it to further goals he ultimately agreed with. I expect his vision of a better Praes is probably something along the lines of 'ruling council made up of representatives from each region of Praes along with the high commanders of the Legions and maybe a couple of other institutions', with the full intention of establishing a meritocratic hierarchy in each individual piece of the system. Because yeah, he doesn't necessarily want to enfranchise the common person. He just wants to get rid of the Dread Emperors and the nobility and slightly decentralize the ultimate authority of Praes. His goal was always a future where organizations hold the power, not Names, and some sort of Federal system is probably the best way to achieve that given what we've seen of Praes.

It could burn the tower down. But it can't destroy the story. And it doesn't leave gaping black holes where nothing can be built again. A new Tower would just be raised. To truly break the Tower, you have to make people stop believing in the tower.

I'm not really interested in arguing the semantics of dictator versus authoritarian. He doesn't care about rule of law other than as a tool. He isn't about decentralization at all. The legions are as centralized and regimented as possible. He wants to gut the nobility because he hates their entitlement.

The only time he ever cared about sharing power was with Cat in Callow. And that was only because he saw it as a way to accomplish his greater goal. His overall control was always assumed never in question.

[AmberVael]

When I started writing this post, I was going to concur that goblinfire wouldn't be enough on its own, but after thinking it over I'm not as sure. We've never actually seen it burn an aspect, but I think Cat's speculation is accurate. It does burn magic. The main limitation it has on "burning a story" so to speak is that it seems to spread physically, and so I don't think it could 'reach' a story so to speak, not unless it is focused on something physical (like an aspect is in a person, or perhaps a magical item - I wonder if it would have been better to burn the angel feather sword instead of breaking it?). But... the focus of Praes, and even its ruling name, is very much the tower. I wonder if burning it might actually do some damage. I'm still a bit dubious, but it seems more plausible than it did on first consideration.

That said, I think it's largely irrelevant whether goblinfire is sufficient to do the job. Amadeus has shown some proficiency with stories, and I really think he'd know if destroying the tower isn't sufficient. Destroying it is a potent symbol though, and that's something I think could be leveraged into the true death of the tower and it's narrative.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know how that helps anyone tbh. Praes' nobles are the local rulers that were unified into the Empire, and Amadeus is popular for offering semi-autonomy to their minority species in return for troops. Unifying the Empire into a State and getting rid of the nobles would involve stripping his allies of their independence not freeing them up.

[Forum Explorer]

@Glyphstone

Thanks I went back and reread that section. It's educated speculation on cat's part and has to do with the specific nature of Inscribe/ assassin. So probably true, but not necessarily generalizable to other aspects.



It could burn the tower down. But it can't destroy the story. And it doesn't leave gaping black holes where nothing can be built again. A new Tower would just be raised. To truly break the Tower, you have to make people stop believing in the tower.

I'm not really interested in arguing the semantics of dictator versus authoritarian. He doesn't care about rule of law other than as a tool. He isn't about decentralization at all. The legions are as centralized and regimented as possible. He wants to gut the nobility because he hates their entitlement.

The only time he ever cared about sharing power was with Cat in Callow. And that was only because he saw it as a way to accomplish his greater goal. His overall control was always assumed never in question.


Sure it would. Problem is that most Aspects are contained within the Named using them. Destroying them would require setting the Named on fire, which would destroy definetely destroy the Aspect as the Named using it would be quite dead. :smalltongue:


It definitely isn't sufficient to destroy the Name, but it might be necessary to destroy the Name. I mean, destroying the power base of the Tower is a pretty big step in making sure that Dread Emperors/Empresses don't really rule anymore. Next step might be wiping out all the contenders who want that role in the first place. AKA the Nobility.

[HolyDraconus]

Sure it would. Problem is that most Aspects are contained within the Named using them. Destroying them would require setting the Named on fire, which would destroy definetely destroy the Aspect as the Named using it would be quite dead. :smalltongue:


It definitely isn't sufficient to destroy the Name, but it might be necessary to destroy the Name. I mean, destroying the power base of the Tower is a pretty big step in making sure that Dread Emperors/Empresses don't really rule anymore. Next step might be wiping out all the contenders who want that role in the first place. AKA the Nobility.
Whew. Been awhile since I posted.

To add to the quoted, I theorize that it’s plausible to burn out a Name with enough goblin fire. We know that Aspects can be destroyed, and we know that they are linked to specific names (like how Learn is to Squire) and when Cat went down one Aspect she didn’t gain another to replace it: she had to be reset as it were and dealt another three Aspects. So burn enough Aspects and it’s possible that a Name will cease to function due to, uh, lack of resources.

[Forum Explorer]

Whew. Been awhile since I posted.

To add to the quoted, I theorize that it’s plausible to burn out a Name with enough goblin fire. We know that Aspects can be destroyed, and we know that they are linked to specific names (like how Learn is to Squire) and when Cat went down one Aspect she didn’t gain another to replace it: she had to be reset as it were and dealt another three Aspects. So burn enough Aspects and it’s possible that a Name will cease to function due to, uh, lack of resources.

Oh, I disagree with that. Aspects are linked to certain Roles, sure. Because those Roles have...well roles. A Squire is all about learning to become a better Named, so they naturally have Aspects related to that. Each Name has it's own personal Aspects that are related to that Named and that Named only. If Cat had somehow completely destroyed her Learn as an Aspect, it wouldn't effect Arthur's Aspect of Learn.

So I don't think you could just Goblinfire enough Squires to rid reality of the name Squire. Each name arises separately to fit an established groove. You'd have to remove the groove which is difficult to say the least.

[Thomas Cardew]

Whew. Been awhile since I posted.

To add to the quoted, I theorize that it’s plausible to burn out a Name with enough goblin fire. We know that Aspects can be destroyed, and we know that they are linked to specific names (like how Learn is to Squire) and when Cat went down one Aspect she didn’t gain another to replace it: she had to be reset as it were and dealt another three Aspects. So burn enough Aspects and it’s possible that a Name will cease to function due to, uh, lack of resources.

Aspects are linked to names because they tend to be linked to the Role. Cat and Arthur both had Learn because it was necessary to their Role at the time. When Cat claimed Squire a second time, Learn wasn't a part of her Role any more. As a result she got a new set of aspects better linked to the Role she was filling (Take, Break, Fall)

[HolyDraconus]

Oh, I disagree with that. Aspects are linked to certain Roles, sure. Because those Roles have...well roles. A Squire is all about learning to become a better Named, so they naturally have Aspects related to that. Each Name has it's own personal Aspects that are related to that Named and that Named only. If Cat had somehow completely destroyed her Learn as an Aspect, it wouldn't effect Arthur's Aspect of Learn.

So I don't think you could just Goblinfire enough Squires to rid reality of the name Squire. Each name arises separately to fit an established groove. You'd have to remove the groove which is difficult to say the least.
The Aspect is a representation of that groove however. If that Aspect is destroyed why would it reshape into itself again? In the Learn example, I posit that if Cat DID end up having that destroyed instead that Squire would no longer have access to it. I’m basing it on the fact that if an Aspect can just reshape she should have gotten her Aspect back. The Name could endure, but I believe that the power it had can be stripped from it. Leaving the Aspect of the Name no longer being usable, leaving the Name to stop being such.

Aspects are linked to names because they tend to be linked to the Role. Cat and Arthur both had Learn because it was necessary to their Role at the time. When Cat claimed Squire a second time, Learn wasn't a part of her Role any more. As a result she got a new set of aspects better linked to the Role she was filling (Take, Break, Fall)

True, but I think that there’s not enough data to disprove that or support my position so I will let it go

[Forum Explorer]

The Aspect is a representation of that groove however. If that Aspect is destroyed why would it reshape into itself again? In the Learn example, I posit that if Cat DID end up having that destroyed instead that Squire would no longer have access to it. I’m basing it on the fact that if an Aspect can just reshape she should have gotten her Aspect back. The Name could endure, but I believe that the power it had can be stripped from it. Leaving the Aspect of the Name no longer being usable, leaving the Name to stop being such.


Because the Aspects are unique to the Named that use them, even if the Aspect is the same. Like Learn. It didn't help Cat become a better fighter at all. It was all technical stuff like learning languages and remembering what she read. but with Arthur it doesn't help his book learning, instead it is entirely focused on making him a better fighter. Same Aspect, but completely different results.

So don't think of the Aspects as independent of the Name. The Name itself creates the Aspect, depending on the individual. And we know Goblinfire isn't enough to wipe out a Name. Or else they wouldn't have had people trying to become the Chancellor. They would've just let someone become Chancellor, burned him with Goblinfire, and never have to deal with that problem again.

[Iruka]

I mean, destroying the power base of the Tower is a pretty big step in making sure that Dread Emperors/Empresses don't really rule anymore. Next step might be wiping out all the contenders who want that role in the first place. AKA the Nobility.

I think that's Part of Amadeus' Plan, since he apparently works on getting all the nobility to Ater. The foundation of the Tower is not rock, it is the noble class who have an interest in keeping the system going. If you want to get rid of the Tower, you have to get rid of them. Preferably by Goblinefire.

[halfeye]

Has Cat just been dumped into the lap of the new Dark Knight?

[Tvtyrant]

Sometimes Cat's attitude grates, and I kind of hope she ends up being the one stuck holding Keter shut forever.

[halfeye]

Sometimes Cat's attitude grates, and I kind of hope she ends up being the one stuck holding Keter shut forever.

It's the long price thing, which is just Callow. Akua murdered 100,000 Callowans, that's not going to be forgiven.

[Dragonus45]

I’ll admit, not quite the level of punishment I was hoping for but it’s adequate I guess.

EDIT Stupid phone doesn't want to spoiler box things

[Tvtyrant]

It's the long price thing, which is just Callow. Akua murdered 100,000 Callowans, that's not going to be forgiven.

Oh I agree. And Cat's decision to let Akua go and decide her on fate is just and fair, Cat just grates on me sometimes.

[Rydiro]

Last chapter really makes you question Junipers skill. Set up a fortification. Its suddenly unteneble, without enemy using any new/fancy stuff.

[Glimbur]

Last chapter really makes you question Junipers skill. Set up a fortification. Its suddenly unteneble, without enemy using any new/fancy stuff.

The enemy brought another force on another side of the fortifications. That's plenty to change the calculations. Feels like our protagonists are playing by the enemy's rules... I expect that to change next chapter with Cat doing something... Cat.

[Tvtyrant]

Last chapter really makes you question Junipers skill. Set up a fortification. Its suddenly unteneble, without enemy using any new/fancy stuff.

I think it's more Akua blew their plan up, and then with their advantages negated, being outnumbered, fighting good generals, and on foreign land they were simply out played. If Akua wasn't there the army would have gotten there before there was a fort, Cat would have mangled their cavalry ambush and their night attack probably would have worked. Losing a member of your five man band to the other side is incredibly destructive, Cat is being punished for her personal vengeance here.

And the hubris to think the army that taught you war is as incompetent as the armies you have been shredding with them.

[Mith]

I think it's more Akua blew their plan up, and then with their advantages negated, being outnumbered, fighting good generals, and on foreign land they were simply out played. If Akua wasn't there the army would have gotten there before there was a fort, Cat would have mangled their cavalry ambush and their night attack probably would have worked. Losing a member of your five man band to the other side is incredibly destructive, Cat is being punished for her personal vengeance here.

And the hubris to think the army that taught you war is as incompetent as the armies you have been shredding with them.

Is it hubris when you feel like you are running out of options?

As in, Cat isn't invading for personal glory akin to Alexander the Great. She is literally at war with Malicia since Praes is allied with the Dead King.

As for 'personal vengeance', I think it is worth noting that while Cat has ulterior motives, her actual actions with Akua since Keter has been 'give a former enemy a second chance'. Cat's rejection of Akua is only on the romantic side here, she didn't banish Akua.

[Tvtyrant]

Is it hubris when you feel like you are running out of options?

As in, Cat isn't invading for personal glory akin to Alexander the Great. She is literally at war with Malicia since Praes is allied with the Dead King.

As for 'personal vengeance', I think it is worth noting that while Cat has ulterior motives, her actual actions with Akua since Keter has been 'give a former enemy a second chance'. Cat's rejection of Akua is only on the romantic side here, she didn't banish Akua.

She also didn't do anything to soften the blow, or keep Akua on their side. In fact she openly states she planned for Akua to switch sides so she could break her completely in preparation for making her into a living lock. The hubris is assuming she has enough of an advantage to win the war on foreign grounds, in a way that perfectly suits her designs (IE not working with Sepulchral or the lost legions because she wants Praes reformed), and ditches her most important ally for the job to the enemy. It is all very similar to her invasion of the underdark, or the Proceran invasion of Callow. Refusing to compromise and assuming the world can be changed to meet your vision for it.

By the logic of the story Cat should lose this war like everyone else who makes that choice does, so I am assuming Amadeus totally changes what is happening when he comes center stage.

[Forum Explorer]

She also didn't do anything to soften the blow, or keep Akua on their side. In fact she openly states she planned for Akua to switch sides so she could break her completely in preparation for making her into a living lock. The hubris is assuming she has enough of an advantage to win the war on foreign grounds, in a way that perfectly suits her designs (IE not working with Sepulchral or the lost legions because she wants Praes reformed), and ditches her most important ally for the job to the enemy. It is all very similar to her invasion of the underdark, or the Proceran invasion of Callow. Refusing to compromise and assuming the world can be changed to meet your vision for it.

By the logic of the story Cat should lose this war like everyone else who makes that choice does, so I am assuming Amadeus totally changes what is happening when he comes center stage.

I'm at the point where I'm assuming Amadeus' plan ends up working. Partially because he's a villain, and the first step of the plan works. So he's making a plan that is only one step. Sure he might die or be overthrown immediately afterwards, but he won't care because the 'mold' of Praes will be permanently broken by then.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm at the point where I'm assuming Amadeus' plan ends up working. Partially because he's a villain, and the first step of the plan works. So he's making a plan that is only one step. Sure he might die or be overthrown immediately afterwards, but he won't care because the 'mold' of Praes will be permanently broken by then.

Yeah I imagine Praes gets wrecked in such a way that it doesn't help them much against Keter, so angel ex nukea gets used.

[McNum]

Somehow I don't really envy Malicia if her goal is to put Cat at a disadvantage to be willing to negotiate. Being at a disadvantage is where Cat does her best work.

Such as turning being cornered by a superior force led by the new Black Knight into crossing a lake on foot and taking over a fortress just in time for everything to get crazy and every plan shatter to the magnificent chaos that is Catherine Foundling.

I have no idea what's going to happen next and that greatly amuses me. That's usually when the Guide gets fun.

[HolyDraconus]

Somehow I don't really envy Malicia if her goal is to put Cat at a disadvantage to be willing to negotiate. Being at a disadvantage is where Cat does her best work.

Such as turning being cornered by a superior force led by the new Black Knight into crossing a lake on foot and taking over a fortress just in time for everything to get crazy and every plan shatter to the magnificent chaos that is Catherine Foundling.

I have no idea what's going to happen next and that greatly amuses me. That's usually when the Guide gets fun.

Im gonna hazard a guess and say we learn first hand the effects of the angel nuke next. Being in a three way dance is something Cat has done before so i doubt it be treaded again so quickly.

[Tvtyrant]

So we learn a lot this chapter. Hakram is slowly being moved towards taking control of the horde, Banjo is going to recruit the last Titan to help save mankind (as the foil to using the angel) and thinks Procer is going towards a villain kingdom.

[HolyDraconus]

So we learn a lot this chapter. Hakram is slowly being moved towards taking control of the horde, Banjo is going to recruit the last Titan to help save mankind (as the foil to using the angel) and thinks Procer is going towards a villain kingdom.

You missed one more..
there is another going for the Name of White Knight as Hanno moves towards another Name. In Salia. And who do we know that is there?

[MammonAzrael]

You missed one more..
there is another going for the Name of White Knight as Hanno moves towards another Name. In Salia. And who do we know that is there?

I think you may have misread that one? I believe the implication is that there is another claimant in Salia for the new Name the White Knight is in the running for. Which means the most obvious Name is "Warden of the West," therefore the other claimant would be Cordellia. Which could nice put the two at odds, and aligns with Hano's thoughts about her in this Interlude.

[Rydiro]

I think you may have misread that one? I believe the implication is that there is another claimant in Salia for the new Name the White Knight is in the running for. Which means the most obvious Name is "Warden of the West," therefore the other claimant would be Cordellia. Which could nice put the two at odds, and aligns with Hano's thoughts about her in this Interlude.Makes hannos misconceptions about cordelia even more glaringly obvious. At the same time elbow deep in evil and claimant for a good name. Funny how that works.

[Tvtyrant]

So we get Laurence's backstory and it's pretty good. The irony that she was taken in for not striking when she didn't have to developing into someone who strikes automatically to power her name is quite interesting. She basically becomes the opposite of her teacher in moral regard due to her desire to avenge him.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Makes hannos misconceptions about cordelia even more glaringly obvious. At the same time elbow deep in evil and claimant for a good name. Funny how that works.

Well, that assumes it is a good name. No reason it couldn't be one of the flexible names, either the ones where an individual Named can be Hero or Villain depending on the story (e.g. Ranger) or where depending on the Named they will be either Hero or Villain all the time (e.g. Squire, Tyrant of Helike).

[HolyDraconus]

I think you may have misread that one? I believe the implication is that there is another claimant in Salia for the new Name the White Knight is in the running for. Which means the most obvious Name is "Warden of the West," therefore the other claimant would be Cordellia. Which could nice put the two at odds, and aligns with Hano's thoughts about her in this Interlude.

you are right. My apologies.
New chapter up.
if there was any doubt that the Name Cat was growing into was going to be monstrous, it’s gone now. Like... damn. Malicia got jacked up that badly by being told to shut up?!

[lord_khaine]

Its certainly interesting how this is going to unfold. Everyone still has their plots in the air.
But at the moment. Then i now make the prediction that its Akua that will end up as empress.

It is kinda interesting how despite all her plotting she wont hear the song.
I suspect its because she lost faith in what she were doing. In the plotting and scheming that is.

[Dragonus45]

I haven't been entirely on board with The Plan with Akua since I still think the timing for the ideal punishment passed a long time ago, but the sheer suffering in her internal monologue here has been quite enjoyable. Perhaps Cat was onto something after all.

[Rydiro]

I haven't been entirely on board with The Plan with Akua since I still think the timing for the ideal punishment passed a long time ago, but the sheer suffering in her internal monologue here has been quite enjoyable. Perhaps Cat was onto something after all.Eh, I no longer think Akua should be punished at all. It serves no purpose, she is no longer the person she used to be. Time to turn her completely to Good seems to be running out too, considering she has to complete a career in Praes first.
That said, I didn't quite get what Akuas problem in the last interlude was. The thing about not getting into the campfire/inner circle.

[HolyDraconus]

Eh, I no longer think Akua should be punished at all. It serves no purpose, she is no longer the person she used to be. Time to turn her completely to Good seems to be running out too, considering she has to complete a career in Praes first.
That said, I didn't quite get what Akuas problem in the last interlude was. The thing about not getting into the campfire/inner circle.

I’m just making a guess but I’m assuming that she’s comparing herself to malicia in that instance. That she realized that while initially she did what she did to have some control, she came to the realization that she actually wanted to be there. But they weren’t fooled by her words. It’s one of those “action speaks louder” things and she didn’t follow through.

[Dragonus45]

Eh, I no longer think Akua should be punished at all. It serves no purpose, she is no longer the person she used to be.

Well yes, that was sort of the point. The person she was was so far gone down the rabbit hole she functionally could barely even be punished because even the worst of possible fates, being tied to her mortal enemy as a shade forever, was just fair play to her. She had to become a better version of herself so she would actually be capable of suffering for all her mass murder and Evil.

[Forum Explorer]

Eh, I no longer think Akua should be punished at all. It serves no purpose, she is no longer the person she used to be. Time to turn her completely to Good seems to be running out too, considering she has to complete a career in Praes first.
That said, I didn't quite get what Akuas problem in the last interlude was. The thing about not getting into the campfire/inner circle.

Her punishment is being that different person. Nothing has changed. Frig, people are actually her friends. But yeah, the shadow of her mass murder does still hang over her. People might be able to enjoy being around her despite that, but it very much does hang over them. So yeah, Cat and others can't fully forgive her for that. In Cat's case, this completely prevents Akua and her from ever having a relationship. And that breaks Akua's heart. She wants to be with Cat, but that's impossible.

Cat's plan, her revenge if you will, is based entirely on Akua's own guilty conscious making her choose to sacrifice herself to act as the Warden of the Dead King's prison. Personally? I don't think it will work. Though I would find it absolutely hilarious if she became an agent of Contrition instead.

[Rydiro]

So yeah, Cat and others can't fully forgive her for that. In Cat's case, this completely prevents Akua and her from ever having a relationship.I mostly agree with you. Cat is a massive hypocritical control freak though. She never was Akuas friend, but planned for her to suffer all along. Malicia is exactly right, Cat would forgive Hakram killing a hundred thousand without batting an eye.
Its really like Cats "love" with killian. She actually only cares for this other person as long as they conform to her ideas. She makes exceptions for the Woe and old friends, because they keep her somewhat sane.
She even plans for Akua to switch sides and then she is angry Akua has to do military actions against her army.

[Forum Explorer]

I mostly agree with you. Cat is a massive hypocritical control freak though. She never was Akuas friend, but planned for her to suffer all along. Malicia is exactly right, Cat would forgive Hakram killing a hundred thousand without batting an eye.
Its really like Cats "love" with killian. She actually only cares for this other person as long as they conform to her ideas. She makes exceptions for the Woe and old friends, because they keep her somewhat sane.
She even plans for Akua to switch sides and then she is angry Akua has to do military actions against her army.

I'd agree that Cat is a massive control freak, she always has been. A hypocrite too, though to be fair, it isn't so much that Akua killed hundred thousand people, it's that she killed one hundred thousand Callowans. Cat is still evil, and she very much operates on a 'mine first' kind of morality. I mean, if it wasn't for the Dead King, she'd be fully on board with Black's rampage through Procur.

Anyways, I'd argue that Cat never wanted to become Akua's friend, but found herself liking Akua despite herself. Still she had to get her revenge (:smallsigh:) so she went forward with her plan regardless.

But I'm not trying to justify it in any way. I'm of the opinion that long elaborate revenges are stupid. You get your enemy in your grasp? You end them in as decisive manner as possible and then move on with your bloody life. Or you try and rehabilitate them/redeem them. None of this middle ground BS.

[Dragonus45]

But I'm not trying to justify it in any way. I'm of the opinion that long elaborate revenges are stupid. You get your enemy in your grasp? You end them in as decisive manner as possible and then move on with your bloody life. Or you try and rehabilitate them/redeem them. None of this middle ground BS.

This. It's mostly a miracle things have gone this well with a viper like Akua and it's a tragedy that the stakes were so high they had to let her out and about for so long after the drow incident. Although a slightly more elaborate plan then just execution could have worked just as well. Taking her the night she admitted she had finally grasped she could have had warmth and friendship by the fireside all along and then tossing her back into some very sturdy object before burying it in the foundation of some random building to sit for all eternity in the void. Just elaborate enough to get the desired outcome of punishing a person who actually has reached the point they understand what they did wrong but not so elaborate it gets a ton of your people killed and potentially just lets her off the leash to cause sever harm to you and yours.

[lord_khaine]

But I'm not trying to justify it in any way. I'm of the opinion that long elaborate revenges are stupid. You get your enemy in your grasp? You end them in as decisive manner as possible and then move on with your bloody life. Or you try and rehabilitate them/redeem them. None of this middle ground BS.

Yeah. I do agree to a large part. As Rydiro mentioned earlier. The Doom of Liesse died a while ago.
Punishment would be a little silly. Just about everyone is soaked in the blood of the innocent anyway. Certainly Cats hands are not much cleaner.

But well. I guess in this complicated case. The middle ground were more for a chance to lock the Dead King up forever.

Else. Akua's entire storyarc has been really interesting so far.
Im really savoring the twists and turns. Especially since Cat stole her heart.

[druid91]

This. It's mostly a miracle things have gone this well with a viper like Akua and it's a tragedy that the stakes were so high they had to let her out and about for so long after the drow incident. Although a slightly more elaborate plan then just execution could have worked just as well. Taking her the night she admitted she had finally grasped she could have had warmth and friendship by the fireside all along and then tossing her back into some very sturdy object before burying it in the foundation of some random building to sit for all eternity in the void. Just elaborate enough to get the desired outcome of punishing a person who actually has reached the point they understand what they did wrong but not so elaborate it gets a ton of your people killed and potentially just lets her off the leash to cause sever harm to you and yours.

That just sounds like the start of something where she rises from the dead twice as powerful as before to threaten Callow in Cats twilight years, forcing Cat to sacrifice herself to buy whoever comes after her time.

[uncool]

That just sounds like the start of something where she rises from the dead twice as powerful as before to threaten Callow in Cats twilight years, forcing Cat to sacrifice herself to buy whoever comes after her time.

That's a good point - Catherine's not just pushing for a punishment, but for a self-executing punishment. One that constructs its own narrative so that the beliefs of the world enforce it in perpetuity.

[Rydiro]

That just sounds like the start of something where she rises from the dead twice as powerful as before to threaten Callow in Cats twilight years, forcing Cat to sacrifice herself to buy whoever comes after her time.Trope: Unspoken plan guarantee - now that Cat explained her plan with Akua and the Dead King it wont come about as she plans or even fail completely.

[HolyDraconus]

New chapter, new spoilers. Simple but good. And expected

[uncool]

A Chekhov's Gun 5 years in the making. And from another Chapter 19, no less. Very nice.

[Mith]

A Chekhov's Gun 5 years in the making. And from another Chapter 19, no less. Very nice.

In all likelihood, the information presented this late in the game will be moved to earlier in the series. My understanding is that EE plans to rewrite the series in publishing to have Praes be more explored in Book 2, so that the information isn't so backloaded in the final book. It'll make the gun fire a lot straighter for people.

[The Glyphstone]

When was the 13th legion discussed before?

[uncool]

When was the 13th legion discussed before?


https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/chapter-19-pivot/

“Our history teacher is from there,” Nauk said. “Used to be part of the Thirteenth.”
Ah, the famous Traitor Legion. Legio XIII, Auxilia. It had been raised in the wake of the Conquest, made up mostly of former bandits and mercenaries. Every Callowan with a grudge against the throne had flocked to the banner, and they’d been instrumental in making sure the south surrendered after the fall of the capital – the prospect of that band of armed malcontents sacking their way through the southern cities had been utterly horrifying to the few remaining nobles.

And it's a Chekhov's Gun inserted in the right way: used for one purpose in the moment (to explore Callowan politics a bit and Praesi politics quite a bit more), only to be repurposed (or rather, to have the real purpose shown) much, much later.

A few others:
https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2021/04/20/chapter-12-string/

The Thirteenth did, having been raised from Callowan bandits and rebels, but only six hundred horsemen or so.

https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/chapter-3-demesne/

The Thirteenth Legion was garrisoned there and, having been raised out of Callowan rebels and criminals, actually had a cavalry contingent

https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2017/10/11/chapter-34-talks/

“Even the Thirteenth Legion only has a thousand riders.”

https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2017/12/31/prodigy/

“I thought there was a decree about the Thirteenth Legion getting first pick of mounts out of the provinces,” he said.

https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2019/03/15/chapter-21-intervention/

What few war horses had remained were either closely kept by the last of the Callowan aristocracy or by law set aside for the use of the Legions of Terror – in specific the Thirteenth, which had been raised from Callowan bandits and rebels in the first place.

https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2015/11/25/chapter-3-cost/

but no Callowans. They had a preferred tavern of their own, I’d been informed, run by a retired member of the Thirteenth Legion. I could understand the urge to cling to what you knew, but that didn’t make it any less of a problem for me. Off-duty is where friendships are made.

https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2017/10/09/chapter-33-promises/

We’ve never managed to secure more horses than needed to replenish the ranks of the Thirteenth Legion without risking rebellion.

https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2015/09/02/chapter-23-moroks-plan/

I’m not getting posted in Thalassina with the Thirteenth to break up bickering merchants.”

So this is bigger than I remembered - this is basically the only real cavalry the Legion has.

[lord_khaine]

This was a good Chekhov's Gun.
All the revelant bits were revealed quite a bit in the past.
And in hindsight it makes sense.

[Tvtyrant]

So the battle lines continue. One thing I love about this story is that warfare is much more grounded and real than most fantasy stories, despite all the magic. Troops movements, emphasis on the exact fortification lines, exchanging softening barrages. The author is a battle nerd and it shows.

[The Glyphstone]

How many sides in this fight are we up to now? We have the Army of Callow, the Rebel Legions, the Loyalist Legions, now two separate groups of Sepulchral's forces, plus Malicia sticking her oar in (and yes, I'm counting the Empress as a separate faction to her Legions).

[InvisibleBison]

How many sides in this fight are we up to now? We have the Army of Callow, the Rebel Legions, the Loyalist Legions, now two separate groups of Sepulchral's forces, plus Malicia sticking her oar in (and yes, I'm counting the Empress as a separate faction to her Legions).



If you're counting Malicia as a separate faction, you should probably also count Akua as her own faction.

[The Glyphstone]

If you're counting Malicia as a separate faction, you should probably also count Akua as her own faction.


I didn't count Akua because she's not - in her own mind, at least - actively trying to undermine her supposed faction. She's conflicted, and not putting her full effort into it as a result, but she's not disloyal. To the contrary, warning Marshal Nim about the Pattern of Three she was almost baited into makes her more loyal to the Loyalist faction in a way. Malicia is, as has been pointed out both in and out of universe, playing her own game by ensuring every army still standing at the end of the day is too weak to be a threat to her, including her own 'Loyalist' legions.

[Tvtyrant]

I didn't count Akua because she's not - in her own mind, at least - actively trying to undermine her supposed faction. She's conflicted, and not putting her full effort into it as a result, but she's not disloyal. To the contrary, warning Marshal Nim about the Pattern of Three she was almost baited into makes her more loyal to the Loyalist faction in a way. Malicia is, as has been pointed out both in and out of universe, playing her own game by ensuring every army still standing at the end of the day is too weak to be a threat to her, including her own 'Loyalist' legions.



That was Akua's point to Nim. Nim thinks she works for Malicia, Malicia thinks everyone is a threat to her regardless of their personal loyalty. She would hamstring her own army to prevent a barely existent possibility of disloyalty, murders the closest to siding with her members of the traitor legions, and overall is in exactly the same scenario as they were trying to prevent when they put her on the throne. The throne has driven Malicia mad.

I am also going to avoid talking about Akua as much as possible as it tends to kill of the conversation haha

[Alandra]

I didn't count Akua because she's not - in her own mind, at least - actively trying to undermine her supposed faction. She's conflicted, and not putting her full effort into it as a result, but she's not disloyal. To the contrary, warning Marshal Nim about the Pattern of Three she was almost baited into makes her more loyal to the Loyalist faction in a way. Malicia is, as has been pointed out both in and out of universe, playing her own game by ensuring every army still standing at the end of the day is too weak to be a threat to her, including her own 'Loyalist' legions.



Isn't she? She was surprised that she didn't hear the tower song, so she is at least telling herself that she wants to become the empress. And she only told Marshal Nim about the pattern of three because she tried to turn her against the empress and was a bit more honest than she actually planned to be.

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't she? She was surprised that she didn't hear the tower song, so she is at least telling herself that she wants to become the empress. And she only told Marshal Nim about the pattern of three because she tried to turn her against the empress and was a bit more honest than she actually planned to be.


I think thats part of why I wasn't counting Akua separately yet - she doesn't even honestly know what side she is on yet. Malicia is very firmly on Malicia's side and no one else's.

[lord_khaine]

Akua's situation continues to be so lovely intriguing. It really seems like she is mostly going though the motions without really believing in them.
Also hilariously. I think she has become a better person than Cat.

[HolyDraconus]

New chapter up. I’m starting to think that that gun is on full auto.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Read this whole chapter listening to "Love Bites" by the Aviators. A surprisingly good pairing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICup9T87puc&list=RDMM&index=27

[The Glyphstone]

Akua's situation continues to be so lovely intriguing. It really seems like she is mostly going though the motions without really believing in them.
Also hilariously. I think she has become a better person than Cat.


Considering Cat has gradually become a worse person, or at least less moral, that would only be appropriate. Its like that line from OOTS about Belkar and Mr Scruffy and how they average south of neutral.

[lord_khaine]

Considering Cat has gradually become a worse person, or at least less moral, that would only be appropriate. Its like that line from OOTS about Belkar and Mr Scruffy and how they average south of neutral.


Well more. Its almost kinda tragic. Belkar has been drifting upwards to a baseline point slightly below being just normally egoistic.
Akua has improved to the kind of person who goes out of her way to offer mercy.

And Cat? Cat has degressed to a point where i no longer think she has any moral ground to stand on, when it comes to lecturing the Doom of Liesse.
Not after she murdered a couple of random servants just to send a message.

I mean. Thats it. After you murder innocents in cold blood, then its fairly limited how much space there is left to fall.

[Mith]

Well more. Its almost kinda tragic. Belkar has been drifting upwards to a baseline point slightly below being just normally egoistic.
Akua has improved to the kind of person who goes out of her way to offer mercy.

And Cat? Cat has degressed to a point where i no longer think she has any moral ground to stand on, when it comes to lecturing the Doom of Liesse.
Not after she murdered a couple of random servants just to send a message.

I mean. Thats it. After you murder innocents in cold blood, then its fairly limited how much space there is left to fall.



I am not saying Cat is secretly a Good person, but why does the execution of the servants used in espionage strike you as particularly egregious, and not the poisoning of the water supply that she notes will also impact civilian populations? Every spy has a first mission after all.

She never really had much moral standing. At best, it was about the same moral standing as Tariq, since Mercy didn't actually give him a means to determine the 'best course of action'.

[Tvtyrant]

The name of the story is A Practical Guide To Evil afterall. Cat's always been up front about being in the villain camp for the sake of ramming disarmament treaties through. Her charisma comes from having the highest ambition, wanting to change the rules instead of playing by them like everyone else.

[Dragonus45]

From very very early on Cat has clearly been absolute trash of a human being. To the point where I regularly just get tired of her, and more often Amadeus who would have to sit next to histories greatest monsters to find peers, regularly get me to drop the story for a break. The knowledge that she likely won’t face a terrible end is fairly disheartening as well. It’s hardly news that she is a monster.

[lord_khaine]

I am not saying Cat is secretly a Good person, but why does the execution of the servants used in espionage strike you as particularly egregious, and not the poisoning of the water supply that she notes will also impact civilian populations? Every spy has a first mission after all.

Its a problem when there are a choice of atrocity to pick from.
The poisoning of water supplies were a wartime action taken, that unfortunately also affected civilians as collatoral damage.

Executing a couple of messengers to send a message to their master though?
That does not have the excuse of being a hard choice taken out of nececity. It lack any mitigating factor.
There were no actual need to kill them, except for Cat being a monster on the line of Asmodeus.


From very very early on Cat has clearly been absolute trash of a human being. To the point where I regularly just get tired of her, and more often Amadeus who would have to sit next to histories greatest monsters to find peers, regularly get me to drop the story for a break. The knowledge that she likely won’t face a terrible end is fairly disheartening as well. It’s hardly news that she is a monster.

She has been more trash and less trash at times. Unfortunately, she has recently taken a solid step towards more trash.

edit.
Well. And i just then find it simply hilarious, that Akua, of -all- people, are now starting to be a better person.

[Rydiro]

To the point where I regularly just get tired of her, and more often Amadeus who would have to sit next to histories greatest monsters to find peers, regularly get me to drop the story for a break.What is it about Amadeus that you dislike? I havent found him to be too evil. Maybe i forgot things.

[Mith]

What is it about Amadeus that you dislike? I havent found him to be too evil. Maybe i forgot things.

Well the whole orphanage system was designed to detect proto heroes to be murdered before the Heavens gave them momentum, for one. Kinda found his objections about Hye's raising of the kids to be a bit hypocritical, personally.

He also burned out a good chunk of Proceran farmland. That will have made many starve to death. 'Lean times' still mean many do not make it through.

His use of ironic punishments for nobles also come to mind as well. Just because we dislike people doesn't mean forcing them to eat until their stomach ruptures isn't torture.

Amadeus is definitely a monster.

[Rydiro]

Well the whole orphanage system was designed to detect proto heroes to be murdered before the Heavens gave them momentum, for one. Kinda found his objections about Hye's raising of the kids to be a bit hypocritical, personally.

He also burned out a good chunk of Proceran farmland. That will have made many starve to death. 'Lean times' still mean many do not make it through.

His use of ironic punishments for nobles also come to mind as well. Just because we dislike people doesn't mean forcing them to eat until their stomach ruptures isn't torture.

Amadeus is definitely a monster.
The orphanage system also makes sure you have less heroes simply by improving living conditions of orphans. Give them less reason to revolt by actually making their lives better.
Amadeus policies often have this double effect. Improve living conditions AND his control. He is basically a benevolent dictator. A dictator nontheless.

Burning farmland is, as far as medieval warfare goes, nothing extraordinary. An attack on the army food supply chain. None of the good guys ever cared about starving Praesi. And a history of robbing Praes of grain by the good guys exists too.

I'll concede the torture of nobles.

[lord_khaine]

The orphanage system also makes sure you have less heroes simply by improving living conditions of orphans. Give them less reason to revolt by actually making their lives better.
Amadeus policies often have this double effect. Improve living conditions AND his control. He is basically a benevolent dictator. A dictator nontheless.

He is also a killer of children and babies.
He isnt benevolent. Thats an emotion thats alien to him i would claim.
He is ruthlessly efficient. And recognise petty stuff gets in the way of efficiency.


Burning farmland is, as far as medieval warfare goes, nothing extraordinary. An attack on the army food supply chain. None of the good guys ever cared about starving Praesi. And a history of robbing Praes of grain by the good guys exists too.

Its still an attack on the innocent. Does not make something less awful if others did it.
And im actually kinda certain your mixing stuff up. It was Praes robbing the good guys of grain. Not the other way around.

[Dragonus45]

Well the whole orphanage system was designed to detect proto heroes to be murdered before the Heavens gave them momentum, for one. Kinda found his objections about Hye's raising of the kids to be a bit hypocritical, personally.

He also burned out a good chunk of Proceran farmland. That will have made many starve to death. 'Lean times' still mean many do not make it through.

His use of ironic punishments for nobles also come to mind as well. Just because we dislike people doesn't mean forcing them to eat until their stomach ruptures isn't torture.

Amadeus is definitely a monsters.

And his actual literal cultural genocide of an enemy nation. Plus I think he is a smug ****stain on the underwear of the universe and the Calamities are ridiculously OP. Which only really annoys me because he has that whole rant about how heroes cheat and the narrative of evil losing is bad and he just wants the genocidal madman to get his win for once... in a story where the narrative bends over backwards for him and his philosophies and actively cheats for him. **** that guy.

[Rydiro]

Its still an attack on the innocent. Does not make something less awful if others did it.
And im actually kinda certain your mixing stuff up. It was Praes robbing the good guys of grain. Not the other way around.There was a recent chapter about paladins demanding 'taxes' from the Green Stretch. You know, as invaders do. And they certainly did not care much about the wellbeing of the invaded.
There do not seem to be any Calernian conventions against the practice, so holding Amadeus to that standard is absurd. Procer just did not want to dispatch enough military to secure its borders and stop him. Nor did they want to give their supplies to those starving people. You know, its arguably Procers decision to not feed its citizens and its armies instead.
Edit: Starving your enemies into surrender is basically how most sieges worked.

[Mith]

There was a recent chapter about paladins demanding 'taxes' from the Green Stretch. You know, as invaders do. And they certainly did not care much about the wellbeing of the invaded.
There do not seem to be any Calernian conventions against the practice, so holding Amadeus to that standard is absurd. Procer just did not want to dispatch enough military to secure its borders and stop him. Nor did they want to give their supplies to those starving people. You know, its arguably Procers decision to not feed its citizens and its armies instead.
Edit: Starving your enemies into surrender is basically how most sieges worked.

I was more making the point that he has done monstrous things. I can understand his perspective such as wholesale antihalation of the Order of the White Hand with absolute glee. And my point is more that Amadeus has very much an 'us and them' attitude that makes him an absolute monster to those he deems 'them'. However those he considers under the 'us' side is still probably much broader than initially assumed at the beginning of the series. At least I am pretty certain his speech at Second Liesse is genuine. I don't think the narrative goes out of the way to prove him right in all cases, I think his legitimate grievance makes him a 'Hero' sponsored by Below. He is literally a farm boy who buried his parents and picked up a sword against the Dark Emperor in the Tower. His banner was the underclasses of Praes.

Speaking of conventions, there are none. It's notable that Cat's Articles of Strife are going to be the first of such conventions.

I don't go on about him being the absolute worst, because the point of the series is that there is no 'one' monster. Tariq's championing of Mercy draws a lot of similar results in cases as well.

[Dragonus45]

I don't go on about him being the absolute worst, because the point of the series is that there is no 'one' monster. Tariq's championing of Mercy draws a lot of similar results in cases as well.

Really? I would love to hear about the time Tariq conquered an enemy nation, slaughtered infants in the crib just to ensure they could never be threat to him, tried to wipe out an entire cultural identity of said enemy nation, and created a military doctrine that literally doesn't believe in the concept of a war crime.

[Forum Explorer]

Really? I would love to hear about the time Tariq conquered an enemy nation, slaughtered infants in the crib just to ensure they could never be threat to him, tried to wipe out an entire cultural identity of said enemy nation, and created a military doctrine that literally doesn't believe in the concept of a war crime.

Well he did murder his nephew or niece when they wanted to go to war with Procer. And was willing to have Callow be reduced to a province of Procer instead of taking a peace deal that would have allowed them to focus on Malica immediately.

So I think the only one missing is the military doctrine. Everything else he did in some manner or another.

[Dragonus45]

Well he did murder his nephew or niece when they wanted to go to war with Procer. And was willing to have Callow be reduced to a province of Procer instead of taking a peace deal that would have allowed them to focus on Malica immediately.

So I think the only one missing is the military doctrine. Everything else he did in some manner or another.

Talk about a stretch, did the Wii Fit Trainer help you warm up here?

[druid91]

I mean, Tariq killed an entire town without batting an eye, as well as everyone even tangentially related to him.

Is it really so surprising to consider he might kill infants for his ideals given he almost certainly killed infants for his ideals?

[Forum Explorer]

Talk about a stretch, did the Wii Fit Trainer help you warm up here?

It's about as accurate as your statement.

[Mith]

In addition to the previous statements, I would also point to the fact that the events seen on screen are not exceptional for Tariq. He probably had a sufficiently large list of bloody deeds that can add up to an equivalent to Amadeus. I know it's not explicitly stated, but given how others react to him, can one really be surprised that his hand was often red as it was pale, to quote Ishaq?

And Laurence was a mirror of the Ranger as she became the one who went around cleaning up messes. While she probably doesn't have the 'soft touch' that Tariq had with Mercy, she was perfectly OK with throwing an entire nation-state into a war to the death of a Crusade. Yes Cordelia had already started that, but the Saint through accelerant on the fire.

Above is not Good in this case. They also view people as a means to an end for their personal side of the Wager. Considering Cat's communion with Below when attempting to save Hune, I suspect that there may be parts of Below and Above that have some form of affection for mortals, but I don't think it's universal that Above cares more for people than Below.

The Law aspect of Above may give a tendency of it's champions to be less of a detriment to society, it's not that those champions are superior in every way.

As far as what Amadeus perspective on the world, is it not just fury of having the Paladins conducting 'virtuous' raids? How would the culture that is the Green Stretch be shaped as being the lower caste of their own society, while the outsider also raided you claiming a right that absolved them of the sin of violence? I would think that 'One Sin, One Grace' is the exact lesson that would arise from such a culture where the blows are coming from both sides. It's probably a dark mirror of Callow as the best fed part of Praes with similar feelings of being the marching grounds of a boarder strife.

As far as what is probably a better summary of Amadeus' world view, I would think his private discussion with Alaya is a better example: https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/03/07/epilogue-3/

[Rydiro]

As far as what is probably a better summary of Amadeus' world view, I would think his private discussion with Alaya is a better example: https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/03/07/epilogue-3/I read that again, nice chapter. Do we have any hints on Malicias general motivation?
It often seems her only motivation is to maintain/gain absolute control.

[Dragonus45]

In addition to the previous statements, I would also point to the fact that the events seen on screen are not exceptional for Tariq. He probably had a sufficiently large list of bloody deeds that can add up to an equivalent to Amadeus. I know it's not explicitly stated, but given how others react to him, can one really be surprised that his hand was often red as it was pale, to quote Ishaq?

I hardly believe Tariq ever managed to equal out to being the kind of monster Amadeus is. And any kind of comparison between the two that tries to drag Tariq down to Amadeus' level is laughable by default because the only way it works is by stripping away so much context that the comparisons are meaningless. Yes he killed his nephew, on the eve of a meaningless war that would cost untold lives and kill tens of thousands and only after he desperately tried to convince him not to go to war. If you could go back in time and kill... Amadeus before he rose to power, not as a infant like Amadeus did to the last of the Callow bloodline so he could keep pushing his petty vendetta against existence, but if that was an option to avoid all the bloodshed and cultural genocide that Callow faced might that not be a fair option to take?

Or trying to say that freeing Callow from a despotic literally inhuman monster raised by the all to human monster that conquered it even if it means the, already culturally and logistically crippled, nation in question becomes a province of the larger nation next door is equivalent to Amadeus conquering the nation and slaughtering it's people and culture wholesale in the first place, to sate his personal quest for vengeance at being born into a world where evil looses because good cheats or some such bull****. The two could never be called equivalent without me feeling a need to laugh strongly, out loud at the absurdity of the statement.





Above is not Good in this case. They also view people as a means to an end for their personal side of the Wager. Considering Cat's communion with Below when attempting to save Hune, I suspect that there may be parts of Below and Above that have some form of affection for mortals, but I don't think it's universal that Above cares more for people than Below.


Not terribly interested in defending the Sword Saint she was an *******, although still absolutely a better person then Amadeus. Mostly though that's just because he managed to set that bar so remarkably low. Nor do I care to hash out the question of Above and Below right now either. It's not terribly relevant to comparing a massive dump on the pavement of creation like Amadeus to Tariq.


As far as what Amadeus perspective on the world, is it not just fury of having the Paladins conducting 'virtuous' raids? How would the culture that is the Green Stretch be shaped as being the lower caste of their own society, while the outsider also raided you claiming a right that absolved them of the sin of violence? I would think that 'One Sin, One Grace' is the exact lesson that would arise from such a culture where the blows are coming from both sides. It's probably a dark mirror of Callow as the best fed part of Praes with similar feelings of being the marching grounds of a boarder strife.

Well that cackling monarch one country over built another flying castle fueled by the tortured souls of orphaned children but we have raided the countryside over there at some point so, I guess we really are the baddies.

[The Glyphstone]

Why is everyone insisting that it must be that one is Good and one is Evil? Why can't we have Bad and Worse instead? That way, at least, no one is contorted into, for example, explaining how slaughtering a village with plague is morally justified but having children assassinated is not?

[Mith]

I hardly believe Tariq ever managed to equal out to being the kind of monster Amadeus is. And any kind of comparison between the two that tries to drag Tariq down to Amadeus' level is laughable by default because the only way it works is by stripping away so much context that the comparisons are meaningless. Yes he killed his nephew, on the eve of a meaningless war that would cost untold lives and kill tens of thousands and only after he desperately tried to convince him not to go to war. If you could go back in time and kill... Amadeus before he rose to power, not as a infant like Amadeus did to the last of the Callow bloodline so he could keep pushing his petty vendetta against existence, but if that was an option to avoid all the bloodshed and cultural genocide that Callow faced might that not be a fair option to take?

Or trying to say that freeing Callow from a despotic literally inhuman monster raised by the all to human monster that conquered it even if it means the, already culturally and logistically crippled, nation in question becomes a province of the larger nation next door is equivalent to Amadeus conquering the nation and slaughtering it's people and culture wholesale in the first place, to sate his personal quest for vengeance at being born into a world where evil looses because good cheats or some such bull****. The two could never be called equivalent without me feeling a need to laugh strongly, out loud at the absurdity of the statement.





Not terribly interested in defending the Sword Saint she was an *******, although still absolutely a better person then Amadeus. Mostly though that's just because he managed to set that bar so remarkably low. Nor do I care to hash out the question of Above and Below right now either. It's not terribly relevant to comparing a massive dump on the pavement of creation like Amadeus to Tariq.


Well that cackling monarch one country over built another flying castle fueled by the tortured souls of orphaned children but we have raided the countryside over there at some point so, I guess we really are the baddies.

.....Fine. The only way for me to defend my point is to draw on politics and history, and not all of it is 'dusty Old days'. So I guess instead of arguing the point of 'The Bad and The Worst' as Glyphstone puts it.

[Iruka]

Very interesting turn of events. Took me a little until I understood the title of the chapter.

[Forum Explorer]

Why is everyone insisting that it must be that one is Good and one is Evil? Why can't we have Bad and Worse instead? That way, at least, no one is contorted into, for example, explaining how slaughtering a village with plague is morally justified but having children assassinated is not?

It is fun to compare Taric and Amadeus because they are similar in their regard for their actions not really benefiting themselves but being aimed at a 'greater good', but I do agree that they are both awful people in the end. Taric slaughtering everyone in that village crossed the line, and I view him to be about as good as Cat or Amadeus. I'm not particularly interested in trying to argue whose atrocities aren't as bad as the other.


Very interesting turn of events. Took me a litttle until I understood the title of the chapter.

Yeah, I had to read the comments to remember what Amadeus' plan actually was.

[Tvtyrant]

This was a really beautiful chapter. It took the entire series to pull it off, having a subplot as big in its way as the mainplot climax in a song.

It is chapters like this that make me love this story. The end of the Hierarch was like that too, and Second Liesse.

[Dragonus45]

Why is everyone insisting that it must be that one is Good and one is Evil? Why can't we have Bad and Worse instead? That way, at least, no one is contorted into, for example, explaining how slaughtering a village with plague is morally justified but having children assassinated is not?

Because I just don't see it as an issue of Bad and Worse, Tariq constantly gives people chances and lets things be pushed till the last possible moment before doing something like using the plague to take out those Legions despite the consequences. Amadeus defaults to atrocities the moment he things them convenient. There is actual meaning to the difference there.

[tyckspoon]

I read that again, nice chapter. Do we have any hints on Malicias general motivation?
It often seems her only motivation is to maintain/gain absolute control.

Both Amadeus and Alaya originally wanted to change Praes, with a particular focus on removing the influence of the High Seats/Praesi nobility. They disagreed on the means - Amadeus wanted to tear it all down and let something new be built out of the rubble, and was willing to inflict a generation of chaos on the Empire to give it the chance and impetus to become something different. Alaya thought she could use the influence of the Tower and being Dread Empress to effect less disruptive reforms - she thought she could control the Role and play the politics game better than the rest of the crab bucket in order to reach the desired end. Alaya was able to convince Amadeus that she was on top of it for most of the series, so they did it her way.

But now, it appears to me that Dread Empress Malicia is in control. Not Alaya, the woman who wields the power of the Name Dread Empress to achieve her not-very-Dread-Empressy-goals - I think the Role is significantly affecting her thoughts and choices. She's playing the Praesi political dominance games not because they necessarily lead to a desired outcome, but because that's what Dread Empresses do; for the Name and Role of Dread Empress as an exemplar of Praesi culture, showing that you can outmaneuver all your rivals is a goal in itself. It doesn't have to win you anything except winning. (Contrast to Cat's lessons in the story about winning-by-losing. Malicia does not know how to do this, and while Alaya probably understood the concept at some point I don't think Malicia is capable of it now.)

[NulliusinVerba]

It is fun to compare Taric and Amadeus because they are similar in their regard for their actions not really benefiting themselves but being aimed at a 'greater good', but I do agree that they are both awful people in the end. Taric slaughtering everyone in that village crossed the line, and I view him to be about as good as Cat or Amadeus. I'm not particularly interested in trying to argue whose atrocities aren't as bad as the other.

I think it's important to note that the whole point of the comparisons between the two (because Cat does compare them implicitly, if not outright more than once) is that debating the merits of one being 'good' and the other being 'bad' kind of misses the point.

Both Tariq and Amadeus are people. They're individuals with flaws, prejudices and both of them make mistakes. We've read narration from both characters as they admit to themselves that they screwed up about something. The interesting story conceit is to look at the tension between who they are as people and the Roles they have been cast in by Above/Below.

Amadeus is all about reforming Praes and later Callow so that Evil would finally triumph over Good. He's Below's take on Pragmatic Villainy, the 'cold gears' of his Name a reflection of his constantly trying to balance what is the most pragmatic thing to do any time. He doesn't make ethical value judgments because they're not practical. He burned Procer's heartlands and killed thousands because to him, cutting off the Crusade's breadbasket was the practical move. He kills young Heroes who are basically teenagers because it's the practical move. And he notes when he meets up with Cat in Book V that he didn't have all of the information and that he should have headed for Stairway. He never apologises for what he's done, because in his mind he didn't do anything 'wrong' at the time. Right and wrong aren't questions for the Black Knight. It's worth noting that Below seems to have treated Amadeus's Role as a kind of experiment, and the moment he was losing they nope'd his Name because it stopped being a good story.

Tariq, on the other hand, is about preventing suffering. Another abstract concept that forms a rather concrete standard around which we can chart his behaviour. He kills Ishaq because it prevents a war. He wipes out the village at Lake Artoise because the Black Knight has already killed thousands and he needs to be captured right now to prevent unnecessary suffering. He has to wait at the Princes Graveyard for hundreds more to die so that his call to the Ophanim won't be, in his words, 'an empty prayer'. The Grey Pilgrim Role he's been cast in by Mercy and Above necessitates sacrifice. He can't function unless lots of people have either already died or are about to die. And he hates every second of that; the guy basically cries every battle watching people die just so that his angel friends can step in to save others. The Role is the quiet executioner as much as it is mentor and guide to Heroes. He trains the Good guys and then sends them off to die or get maimed by Below's champions so that he can save them - and he knows it.

'Good' and 'bad' are reductive labels. These are two men with decades of Role influence, and Cat's whole diatribe is against the influence in either direction (and I guess the hypocrisy that Tariq also has a body count in the thousands but is treated entirely heroically while Amadeus is seen as one of the worst monsters, but it's also a case of Protagonist Centered Morality).

[Mith]

I think it's important to note that the whole point of the comparisons between the two (because Cat does compare them implicitly, if not outright more than once) is that debating the merits of one being 'good' and the other being 'bad' kind of misses the point.

Both Tariq and Amadeus are people. They're individuals with flaws, prejudices and both of them make mistakes. We've read narration from both characters as they admit to themselves that they screwed up about something. The interesting story conceit is to look at the tension between who they are as people and the Roles they have been cast in by Above/Below.

Amadeus is all about reforming Praes and later Callow so that Evil would finally triumph over Good. He's Below's take on Pragmatic Villainy, the 'cold gears' of his Name a reflection of his constantly trying to balance what is the most pragmatic thing to do any time. He doesn't make ethical value judgments because they're not practical. He burned Procer's heartlands and killed thousands because to him, cutting off the Crusade's breadbasket was the practical move. He kills young Heroes who are basically teenagers because it's the practical move. And he notes when he meets up with Cat in Book V that he didn't have all of the information and that he should have headed for Stairway. He never apologises for what he's done, because in his mind he didn't do anything 'wrong' at the time. Right and wrong aren't questions for the Black Knight. It's worth noting that Below seems to have treated Amadeus's Role as a kind of experiment, and the moment he was losing they nope'd his Name because it stopped being a good story.

Tariq, on the other hand, is about preventing suffering. Another abstract concept that forms a rather concrete standard around which we can chart his behaviour. He kills Ishaq because it prevents a war. He wipes out the village at Lake Artoise because the Black Knight has already killed thousands and he needs to be captured right now to prevent unnecessary suffering. He has to wait at the Princes Graveyard for hundreds more to die so that his call to the Ophanim won't be, in his words, 'an empty prayer'. The Grey Pilgrim Role he's been cast in by Mercy and Above necessitates sacrifice. He can't function unless lots of people have either already died or are about to die. And he hates every second of that; the guy basically cries every battle watching people die just so that his angel friends can step in to save others. The Role is the quiet executioner as much as it is mentor and guide to Heroes. He trains the Good guys and then sends them off to die or get maimed by Below's champions so that he can save them - and he knows it.

'Good' and 'bad' are reductive labels. These are two men with decades of Role influence, and Cat's whole diatribe is against the influence in either direction (and I guess the hypocrisy that Tariq also has a body count in the thousands but is treated entirely heroically while Amadeus is seen as one of the worst monsters, but it's also a case of Protagonist Centered Morality).


It should also be the note that while Amadeus probably does have that chip on his shoulder about the Heavens 'winning easily', his goal in conquering Callow was not to put a thumb in an eye of the Heavens but to secure a food source for Praes in a fashion that would keep Praes stable and fed. That's the other reason I brought up that epilogue.

[Tvtyrant]

It should also be the note that while Amadeus probably does have that chip on his shoulder about the Heavens 'winning easily', his goal in conquering Callow was not to put a thumb in an eye of the Heavens but to secure a food source for Praes in a fashion that would keep Praes stable and fed. That's the other reason I brought up that epilogue.

He openly makes the argument that increased food stores will lance the fester of their culture, the belief that using each other makes society better.

[Mith]

He openly makes the argument that increased food stores will lance the fester of their culture, the belief that using each other makes society better.

I think we are in violent agreement here?

I was more getting at that a contrast between Amadeus and Tariq is that Amadeus focused on material condition of Praes and how to fix it, while Tariq has a stronger eye on spiritual consequences of certain actions. See Tariq's perception of the long term consequences of Cat's reign in Callow. Amadeus doesn't believe in those consequences, and sees those as Above's justification for their own actions.

[Tvtyrant]

I think we are in violent agreement here?

I was more getting at that a contrast between Amadeus and Tariq is that Amadeus focused on material condition of Praes and how to fix it, while Tariq has a stronger eye on spiritual consequences of certain actions. See Tariq's perception of the long term consequences of Cat's reign in Callow. Amadeus doesn't believe in those consequences, and sees those as Above's justification for their own actions.

We are! I was agreeing with you, not disagreeing :)

[Mith]

We are! I was agreeing with you, not disagreeing :)

Just checking. Currently in a minor heat wave, so my brain isn't always doing good for filtering context/tones from text.

[Tvtyrant]

Just checking. Currently in a minor heat wave, so my brain isn't always doing good for filtering context/tones from text.

Yeah I understand, it has been 95 here.

I think Amadeus is very much of the "material differences create moral differences" vein, and Tariq is of the "moral condition create material ones." Tariq is definitely a "bad kings bring bad weather" kind of approach, and Amadeus is of the "people wouldn't do bad things if they were of moderate wealth." Cat is of the "draconian laws make good citizens" bent, with the author seeming to come down on no one's side. Cat's worst moments are from her draconian sense of justice (see Drow enslavement) while Tariq's are from his sense of moral justice (refusing to ally with her at the Battle of the Camps) and Amadeus' from his.

In a sense every power from Ranger to Malicia is a rejection of a different approach to social bonds and justice, and while Cat's is the "righest" it is clearly wrong or it wouldn't be a Practical Guide to EVIL.

[Mith]

Yeah I understand, it has been 95 here.

I think Amadeus is very much of the "material differences create moral differences" vein, and Tariq is of the "moral condition create material ones." Tariq is definitely a "bad kings bring bad weather" kind of approach, and Amadeus is of the "people wouldn't do bad things if they were of moderate wealth." Cat is of the "draconian laws make good citizens" bent, with the author seeming to come down on no one's side. Cat's worst moments are from her draconian sense of justice (see Drow enslavement) while Tariq's are from his sense of moral justice (refusing to ally with her at the Battle of the Camps) and Amadeus' from his.

In a sense every power from Ranger to Malicia is a rejection of a different approach to social bonds and justice, and while Cat's is the "righest" it is clearly wrong or it wouldn't be a Practical Guide to EVIL.

I believe that makes Cat a Legalist.

And if the world is 'how it should be', there would be no Names.

[Tvtyrant]

I believe that makes Cat a Legalist.

And if the world is 'how it should be', there would be no Names.

I don't really get what your second sentence is saying, I must be missing something. My point was the word is broken, and each of the powers offers a "solution" that the author then shows as being flawed in many ways.

[Mith]

I don't really get what your second sentence is saying, I must be missing something. My point was the word is broken, and each of the powers offers a "solution" that the author then shows as being flawed in many ways.

It's reflecting on how a common statement of how Named come to be is them seeing the world not being how it should be and wanting the power to correct it. Since the Gods are having a Wager on what 'the best way foreword' is, they enable those people with powers to make such changes to the world and thus shape their own version of a 'perfect world'. Up to and including rising against the working of another person trying to shape the world in a way that you find incompatible to your own 'perfect vision'.

I would think that if a compromise everyone found agreeable arose, then the Wager would be resolved.

[NulliusinVerba]

So... will Basilia get a Name, do we think?

And if so, what do we think the odds are that said Name will be the Warden of the South?

Also loved seeing the Bellerophon nonsense once again! Their madness never disappoints.

[Dragonus45]

So... will Basilia get a Name, do we think?

And if so, what do we think the odds are that said Name will be the Warden of the South?

Also loved seeing the Bellerophon nonsense once again! Their madness never disappoints.

That would certainly qualify as important enough for me to be miffed it was stuck behind a paywall so I doubt the name will be that important.

[InvisibleBison]

So... will Basilia get a Name, do we think?

And if so, what do we think the odds are that said Name will be the Warden of the South?

Also loved seeing the Bellerophon nonsense once again! Their madness never disappoints.

I'm fairly certain that Basilia's actions could lead to her getting a name, though it may not actually take for some reason (if nothing else, she hasn't won yet). But I see nothing to suggest that her name might be "Warden of the South".

[Iruka]

That would certainly qualify as important enough for me to be miffed it was stuck behind a paywall so I doubt the name will be that important.

Is the bonus chapter also about Basilia? I had assumed it was about Ranger, going from the title.


I'm fairly certain that Basilia's actions could lead to her getting a name, though it may not actually take for some reason (if nothing else, she hasn't won yet). But I see nothing to suggest that her name might be "Warden of the South".

The only argument for WotS I can see would be the parallel to the Warden of the West, a possible Name with a much stronger story. Warden of the East was teased a little for Cat, but I am not really convinced so far.

[Dragonus45]

Is the bonus chapter also about Basilia? I had assumed it was about Ranger, going from the title.

Don’t know, I cancelled my plans for moving my subscription from Wildbow over to this once I found out the chapters weren’t going to be public to everyone.

The only argument for WotS I can see would be the parallel to the Warden of the West, a possible Name with a much stronger story. Warden of the East was teased a little for Cat, but I am not really convinced so far.

I feel like the area described is within the realm of what the Warden of the East would cover anyways and I am convinced something like that is filling into place for Cat.

[Tvtyrant]

The bonus chapters are free, there is just a delay on when they get released. I also think it is pretty weird to refer to a tiny fee for bonus content as a paywall. Especially given that the site we are on charges more for their bonus content.

[The Glyphstone]

That delay is until the end of the book, though. So yeah, you can get the bonus chapters for free a year later. Which could be frustrating if they're dealing with plot-relevant stuff at the time they are released.

[Tvtyrant]

That delay is until the end of the book, though. So yeah, you can get the bonus chapters for free a year later. Which could be frustrating if they're dealing with plot-relevant stuff at the time they are released.

They haven't so far. It's been all background character development, several are for people who are already dead.

I don't see where the negativity is coming from. "Ah an artist wants to be paid, surely it is we who are getting screwed over!"

[The Glyphstone]

They haven't so far. It's been all background character development, several are for people who are already dead.

I don't see where the negativity is coming from. "Ah an artist wants to be paid, surely it is we who are getting screwed over!"

No, you're not wrong there. But that doesn't mean a cheap paywall isn't still a paywall.

[Forum Explorer]

That delay is until the end of the book, though. So yeah, you can get the bonus chapters for free a year later. Which could be frustrating if they're dealing with plot-relevant stuff at the time they are released.

I can't remember anything actually plot important happening in the bonus chapters. Like Roland's. It was neat, and showed us a bunch about him, but you didn't need to read it to understand anything in the main books.

My problem is that I might actually lose interest in said bonus chapters by the time they are available to be read.

[Dragonus45]

They haven't so far. It's been all background character development, several are for people who are already dead.

I don't see where the negativity is coming from. "Ah an artist wants to be paid, surely it is we who are getting screwed over!"

I'm all for helping get authors paid, almost all my patreon stuff is web serial stuff. I just don't personally support the paywall thing. I want to support the whole community not just get something nifty for me. Like for example, if TWI started making the interludes patron only I would have to really reconsider supporting it.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm all for helping get authors paid, almost all my patreon stuff is web serial stuff. I just don't personally support the paywall thing. I want to support the whole community not just get something nifty for me. Like for example, if TWI started making the interludes patron only I would have to really reconsider supporting it.

I sense that any further discussion on this subject will jump into a fight, so I'm going to just agree to disagree.

[druid91]

So... will Basilia get a Name, do we think?

And if so, what do we think the odds are that said Name will be the Warden of the South?

Also loved seeing the Bellerophon nonsense once again! Their madness never disappoints.

Bellerophon is genuinely my favorite faction in the setting.

[Rydiro]

Bellerophon is genuinely my favorite faction in the setting.Its Democracy without Rule of Law nor protected minorities. Action Democrazy.

[runeghost]

I'm all for helping get authors paid, almost all my patreon stuff is web serial stuff. I just don't personally support the paywall thing. I want to support the whole community not just get something nifty for me. Like for example, if TWI started making the interludes patron only I would have to really reconsider supporting it.

Erraticerrata has said that the extra chapters will be freely accessible once the current book is done. Patreon just gets you early access to the bonus material.

[InvisibleBison]

Erraticerrata has said that the extra chapters will be freely accessible once the current book is done. Patreon just gets you early access to the bonus material.

A paywall that will eventually be taken down is still a paywall.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What happened to the Blackguards?

The reference a chapter or two ago to Juniper's parentage made me go back to read the Academy plot at the end of the first book, and back then, Black had a company of Blackguards serving as his personal bodyguards (one even has a name, and a bit of a personality, tertiary character as they are). There is even frequent talk of Cat probably wanting to form one of her own. The blackguards don't seem to be around anymore, but I cannot for the life of me remember what happened to them. Does the story address it? Killed by Tariq, maybe? Or did they just vanish at some point, never to be mentioned again?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[druid91]

What happened to the Blackguards?

The reference a chapter or two ago to Juniper's parentage made me go back to read the Academy plot at the end of the first book, and back then, Black had a company of Blackguards serving as his personal bodyguards (one even has a name, and a bit of a personality, tertiary character as they are). There is even frequent talk of Cat probably wanting to form one of her own. The blackguards don't seem to be around anymore, but I cannot for the life of me remember what happened to them. Does the story address it? Killed by Tariq, maybe? Or did they just vanish at some point, never to be mentioned again?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

I had assumed they died when Tariq killed everyone except Amadeus in his army.

[Mith]

I had assumed they died when Tariq killed everyone except Amadeus in his army.

I had presumed so as well. However, when Amadeus set out back to Praes, he mentioned leaving 'his people' in Cat's care, which at the time seemed like the Blackguard were still around in some capacity (it sounded like more than just the Legions in Exile at the time). I could be wrong in recollection/interpretation, though.

[Tvtyrant]

I kind of saw that coming, but certainly not the conversation with his friends in his head (and that it would be Cat and the two he got along with least haha.)

Really good chapter as nearly always.

[3SecondCultist]

What happened to the Blackguards?

The reference a chapter or two ago to Juniper's parentage made me go back to read the Academy plot at the end of the first book, and back then, Black had a company of Blackguards serving as his personal bodyguards (one even has a name, and a bit of a personality, tertiary character as they are). There is even frequent talk of Cat probably wanting to form one of her own. The blackguards don't seem to be around anymore, but I cannot for the life of me remember what happened to them. Does the story address it? Killed by Tariq, maybe? Or did they just vanish at some point, never to be mentioned again?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

So Black’s original retinue of Blackguard almost certainly died on the shores of Lake Artoise. He did replace them later in Book V after being rescued from Neshamah by Cat, but when he dismissed Eudokia from his service he also got rid of all of them. Cat notes their absence in the final pre-epilogue chapter of Book V.

[halfeye]

So Hakram is Warlord now.

[Iruka]

That happened a lot quicker than I expected, but did not feel unearned. I like that the story spends some time exploring the effects of economical ties on societies and cultural identity. Most Fantasy I've read is a lot more static than that.

[Rydiro]

Did the procrean house of light have any named priests? Or are they so corrupt and hated by the populace that there are none?

[Tvtyrant]

Did the procrean house of light have any named priests? Or are they so corrupt and hated by the populace that there are none?

Procer has almost no Named at all. The country is too successful and has too many stories to burn them into Names (they say this between the Prince Graveyard and the Trial of Judgement.) Hanno thinks about this in the scene where they reintroduce the Mirror KNight, as the Procerans love him and Hanno wonders what purpose Heaven made his Name for that he would be so crazy strong so fast.

[Mith]

That happened a lot quicker than I expected, but did not feel unearned. I like that the story spends some time exploring the effects of economical ties on societies and cultural identity. Most Fantasy I've read is a lot more static than that.

The way I see it, the momentum build up to Warlord was independent of Hakram's own path. However, being the Adjutant as part of the Legion culture means that he was also a rising star that could capitalise on this gathering storm, and by virtue of being Named was going to be a pivot in this situation by either backing a claimant or staking a claim himself.


Did the procrean house of light have any named priests? Or are they so corrupt and hated by the populace that there are none?

I would think that the fact that Named priests are a known quantity, that Procer will have had Named priests. However, the issue is that it's not Proceran Named so much as each region would have it's own Named (EE stated in an AMA that Mirror Knight was a Name that arose against the Wicked Enchanter Named traditionally.). So as I understand it, Lawrence wandering around Procer was an exception to the rule, and perhaps the precursor to other wandering Named types prior to the Cursade bringing them all together.

Then again, CHosen tend to but heads with Proceran Houses of Light, so they may be rarer still. While Callowan Priest Named probably aren't exceptional in this regard because the priests always argue with each other anyways.

[lord_khaine]

Honestly, the problem is that while activating the weapon is a horrible thing. Then i cant really see any alternative in Cordelia's shoes.
When given the choice between a bomb that kills some fraction, 1/2? 1/3?, of your people, and having them all eaten by zombies?
Yeah.. bombs away.

Also was nice finally having revealed what the weapon is/does. More than just being an angel corpse.
Its a massive Sa'Angrel (to borrow Wheel of Time terms).

[Forum Explorer]

Honestly, the problem is that while activating the weapon is a horrible thing. Then i cant really see any alternative in Cordelia's shoes.
When given the choice between a bomb that kills some fraction, 1/2? 1/3?, of your people, and having them all eaten by zombies?
Yeah.. bombs away.

Also was nice finally having revealed what the weapon is/does. More than just being an angel corpse.
Its a massive Sa'Angrel (to borrow Wheel of Time terms).


I think the ratio might be worse than you are suggesting. But then again, maybe not. Afterall, being a solider is tough in many ways. A peasant farmer has much less opportunity to do stuff that would attract the wrath of Judgement.

I love the separate approaches here though. Hanno goes looking for an ancient power to bargain with and convince to fight for them. Cordelia puts her faith in a superweapon created and controlled by modern mortals.

[lord_khaine]

I think the ratio might be worse than you are suggesting. But then again, maybe not. Afterall, being a solider is tough in many ways. A peasant farmer has much less opportunity to do stuff that would attract the wrath of Judgement.

I love the separate approaches here though. Hanno goes looking for an ancient power to bargain with and convince to fight for them. Cordelia puts her faith in a superweapon created and controlled by modern mortals.

I if anything think its more likely the ratio would go the other way. I were giving worst case scenarios to showcase just how utterly horrible the alternative to using the weapon was.
But while the Choir of Justice is utterly merciless, then i dont think they are unfair. I do think it will take a little more than just cheating at cards every friday in the inn to get turned into a pillar of salt.

As for the seperate approaches. I if anything thing its mostly a case of using whatever the heck thats available. Hanno has some rather extreme aversion to desecrating an angel corpse.
Cordelia meanwhile are used to get her hands far more dirty as a ruler.

[Tvtyrant]

They finally had Frederic and Otto get together! There is two entire time skips from the last time they teased that relationship.

[Thomas Cardew]

I think the ratio might be worse than you are suggesting. But then again, maybe not. Afterall, being a solider is tough in many ways. A peasant farmer has much less opportunity to do stuff that would attract the wrath of Judgement.

I love the separate approaches here though. Hanno goes looking for an ancient power to bargain with and convince to fight for them. Cordelia puts her faith in a superweapon created and controlled by modern mortals.

I think 49% is the upper limit. Per Hanno: “If the coin spun for ever soul on Calernia, it would show the laurels more often than not,” the White Knight said. “The circumstances in which it is prone to spinning, however, have favoured the showing of the swords."

I also think it's possible that Bard intends to steal it to blow up Serenity, or whatever the DK named his private hell, to eliminate his power base.

I don't think Hanno went looking for 'ancient power' so much as he went looking for allies using the tools he had. He and Antigone are the only ones who could make this approach. Just like he and Antigone were the primary reason the GA got an interview with the spellsingers who sealed the rifts.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm.. i do think this pretty much confirm my earlier theory about Akua ending up in charge of Praes. It seemed obvious after she first spared that guy.
And expressed having lost faith in the philosophy that ruled the place.

Besides that. Got to say her chapters have become my favorite.
I do love a redemption arc well done. And i have not seen one this good since Prince Zuko said &%¤ you to his father.
And i do enjoy the way her good deeds are suddenly starting to haunt her. The way she had to discretely explain to the refugee leader how she healed their kids for political gain.
As well as the way its the guy she spared, who saves her life with a bit of surgery. Just to keep her alive and suffering.
Honestly i give it a 50/50 chance he will sacrifice his life to safe Akue at some point.

[Rydiro]

Akua still confused about what she wants and where she is going.

[The Glyphstone]

Which makes her lecture to Jim both more amusing and hypocritical at once.

[lord_khaine]

Jim? The Black Knight?

[The Glyphstone]

Nim, Marshall Nim. Stupid auto cauliflower.

[Thomas Cardew]

Tbh, I found Jim absolutely hilarious and shall henceforth only refer to the black knight as...Jim.

[Forum Explorer]

I feel her rant to Nim Jim was mostly stuff she was thinking about herself. The funny thing is, she seems to be winning through doing 'good' things. Healing people, inspiring people, speaking truthfully.

I got to say, I'm loving both Akua's and Malicia's despair here. Both are all about the consequences of their actions, but from different sides. Akua is almost a hero, or of heroic mindset (I seriously would not be surprised if she got an offer from Mercy or Compassion. Or Contrition I suppose.) While Malicia is pure villain. She is only regretting her actions because it looks like it is going to kill her.

Anyways, I'm expecting Black to shatter Malicia's plan here. All this talking about what's coming to her, and she's completely forgotten about Black. She even mentions a mage killed with legionnaire steel, which I bet was because of Black.

[Dragonus45]

Akua learning that cold practical actions that give you concrete and immediate returns aren't the only way to live life and doing the right thing for it's own sake can also bring rewards is great.

[Eurus]

Akua's ongoing crisis is extremely fun to read. I kinda hope Cat's plan for her blows up at this point and she has to acknowledge that she underestimated Akua, but then, I never really liked the Callowan revenge fetish as a justification anyway. :smallamused:

[lord_khaine]

Akua's ongoing crisis is extremely fun to read

Akua has been solid gold ever since Cat broke her heart for the second time, and she ran off.

Im quite certain she is going to be pushed into the position of ruler against her wishes.
Just because its the sort of joke fate enjoys.

[uncool]

So...is it just me, or did Akua just give Jim the Praesi equivalent of a pep talk?

[Mith]

So...is it just me, or did Akua just give Jim the Praesi equivalent of a pep talk?

A self projected pep talk too. So it's not only Something to help Nim get back to her feet and focus, but also providing an example at where to start (look both to Amadeus' success in building legions, and Akua unintentional rise in popularity.)

[lord_khaine]

Well likely a bit of both?
Some stuff was very clearly aimed at the Black Knight.
While some twisted around in the air like a boomerang and smacked her in the back of the head.

[Mith]

Well likely a bit of both?
Some stuff was very clearly aimed at the Black Knight.
While some twisted around in the air like a boomerang and smacked her in the back of the head.

That's fair. Overall, it's a good scene.

That entire Akua section was gold.

And it's going to be interesting to see Cat's reaction when she reaches Ater and sees what Akua has become.

[HolyDraconus]

That's fair. Overall, it's a good scene.

That entire Akua section was gold.

And it's going to be interesting to see Cat's reaction when she reaches Ater and sees what Akua has become.

But isn’t this more or less what Cat said would happen anyway? And has anyone noticed that this would be the second time Cat spoke of the future in such a definite term that it happens? And is Cat gonna get downgraded to Warden instead of whatever her name is?

[InvisibleBison]

And is Cat gonna get downgraded to Warden instead of whatever her name is?

That seems to be what the Bard thinks is going to happen, so I'm confident that it won't be what actually happens.

[Mith]

That seems to be what the Bard thinks is going to happen, so I'm confident that it won't be what actually happens.

My guess is that Akua as a 'wildcard' will grab the Eastern Name that they are planning to shove on Cat.

[McNum]

My guess is that Akua as a 'wildcard' will grab the Eastern Name that they are planning to shove on Cat.
Considering they started out contesting the Squire Name, it would be interesting if Akua ends up taking a Name for Cat, so Cat can become what she's really aiming for. Fate loves its symmetry in this world, no?

[Noldo]

Considering they started out contesting the Squire Name, it would be interesting if Akua ends up taking a Name for Cat, so Cat can become what she's really aiming for. Fate loves its symmetry in this world, no?

In a sense Hakram’s accession to a new name could be seen as slight foreshadowing/explaining as it showed to us that a claimant can hijack a name even if another claimant is further away along the process. So Akua snatching the Warden of the East (with Above’s support as heroic name?) that has been prepared for Cat to assume would not come without any prior hints that this could be possible.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah it is looking like the linked names built for Cordelia and Catherine are going to end up taken up by Akua and Hanno, who are sharing a redemption story about being part of the world instead of being Chosen above it.

[HolyDraconus]

Yeah it is looking like the linked names built for Cordelia and Catherine are going to end up taken up by Akua and Hanno, who are sharing a redemption story about being part of the world instead of being Chosen above it.
After reading the new chapter 22, I don’t think Cat’s Name is linked. In that sense. At all. It’s monstrous. Absolutely monstrous. But when I think about it, it makes sense. Her target is the Dead King. The dood is the closest walking personification of Evil Calernia has ever seen. He’s seen and done more than everyone save the Bard. So she’s going to need a powerful Name to put a permanent dent in him.

[lord_khaine]

Well. I in turn dont think its that monstrous. Just.. specialized.
In the same way that when it came to cutting something, the saint of swords had no equal.

Cats then turning specialized in that her name grants her authorithy. Over villains mostly.
And those she rule by right.

[Tvtyrant]

After reading the new chapter 22, I don’t think Cat’s Name is linked. In that sense. At all. It’s monstrous. Absolutely monstrous. But when I think about it, it makes sense. Her target is the Dead King. The dood is the closest walking personification of Evil Calernia has ever seen. He’s seen and done more than everyone save the Bard. So she’s going to need a powerful Name to put a permanent dent in him.

Her actual Name isn't, I think the one Bard is trying to make for her is. Bard tried to make Cordelia the Warden of the West, which naturally makes a Warden of the East. She also tried to push Cat into being her own rival rather than the King of the Deads.

The KotD rules over undead Named, a layer of Hell, and endless armies. If Cat is becoming anything linked it is King of the Living.

[Rydiro]

New chapter ...... in which Cat again refuses to listen to a diplomatic offer to the end. And then wonders why she misses stuff. Its honestly a really bad habit not even listening to the concessions the other side is willing to make.

Warden of the East is a new Name afaik. There never was one before. Wardens of the West have been there for longer.

[HolyDraconus]

Her actual Name isn't, I think the one Bard is trying to make for her is. Bard tried to make Cordelia the Warden of the West, which naturally makes a Warden of the East. She also tried to push Cat into being her own rival rather than the King of the Deads.

The KotD rules over undead Named, a layer of Hell, and endless armies. If Cat is becoming anything linked it is King of the Living.

That would require for her to LIVE though. And last I checked, she's batting for Below, who is notorious for dying in excruciating fashion. Like, her ideal for Names need something to endure, cause its going to fall as soon as the old guard passes, either through old age or infighting. Having one of the old guard around through the ages a la Dead King WOULD keep it going. But is she going to give that task to DK? Cause unless her new Name comes with it some bs powers on the scope of the Intercessor, once she's down she's out. Akua has a body so making her an unbodied aspect of it as eternity for redemption is out too. And her ultimate plan for the DK is to cobble him cause she can't outright destroy him permanently.

So no. I think her Name is clearly showing that its a Ruler over Named, especially those tied to Below, but I don't think it will tie in to her living. I'm starting to think she doesn't have to be alive anymore for it, kinda like when she had Winter, and wasn't really "alive".

[Fable Wright]

New chapter ...... in which Cat again refuses to listen to a diplomatic offer to the end. And then wonders why she misses stuff. Its honestly a really bad habit not even listening to the concessions the other side is willing to make.

Warden of the East is a new Name afaik. There never was one before. Wardens of the West have been there for longer.

Reasons to not listen to the full proposal: Namelore and her own diplomatic weaknesses.

She is riding a story as an unstoppable force come to tear down the tower. Getting bogged down in negotiations is poison to this story.

More than that, her opponent is the Bard. Getting an offer that gives her what she wants is actually poison. She needs surrender to be on her terms, or she'll be laid low by the story.

If she doesn't fight her way through the unbridled madness of all of Ater's defenses turned loose, she's guaranteed to be the warden of the east, and not Warden of the East.

Does this end in extremely undiplomatic behavior that results in conflict escalation over mutually beneficial resolution? Yes. There is a reason Cat wants an end to Named rulers, including herself.

And yes, Warden of the East is a new name—the scope of it is uncertain.

[lord_khaine]

Someone refresh my memory?
What figurative knives are Cat talking about?

[tyckspoon]

Someone refresh my memory?
What figurative knives are Cat talking about?

hmm. There was a lot going on there, but the main threads would be either story-based influence/control (the Prince's Graveyard was one of the instances where the controlling story was one Cat chose and largely directed, even if the specific details had a hefty dose of the usual chaos) or knowing the major players and their personalities and desires well enough to manipulate all the non-Named that would be less subject to Story influences into going along with what she wanted. Since the update explicitly says that she got blindsided going into this meeting and felt that she surrendered some points without even knowing what the game was, it's probably the second thing - I would guess she's going to go talk to Scribe and Vivienne and find out as much as possible about the specific political situation, because it's clearly less obvious than what she had assumed (there isn't supposed to be anybody relevant who still wants Malicia to be in charge of the Tower, for one.)

[Forum Explorer]

New chapter ...... in which Cat again refuses to listen to a diplomatic offer to the end. And then wonders why she misses stuff. Its honestly a really bad habit not even listening to the concessions the other side is willing to make.

Warden of the East is a new Name afaik. There never was one before. Wardens of the West have been there for longer.

There's never been a Warden of the West. That's just a title the First Prince holds. But it's never been a Name before now, ASAIK

[Mith]

hmm. There was a lot going on there, but the main threads would be either story-based influence/control (the Prince's Graveyard was one of the instances where the controlling story was one Cat chose and largely directed, even if the specific details had a hefty dose of the usual chaos) or knowing the major players and their personalities and desires well enough to manipulate all the non-Named that would be less subject to Story influences into going along with what she wanted. Since the update explicitly says that she got blindsided going into this meeting and felt that she surrendered some points without even knowing what the game was, it's probably the second thing - I would guess she's going to go talk to Scribe and Vivienne and find out as much as possible about the specific political situation, because it's clearly less obvious than what she had assumed (there isn't supposed to be anybody relevant who still wants Malicia to be in charge of the Tower, for one.)

Also, Cat focusing on the politics is the wrong move here. She should abdicate as Queen of Callow and focus on the narrative side of this conflict.

Ironically, this would be Cat stepping closer to Hanno in Book 6, as she would only be focused on the Villains. and not confined by political borders.

I suspect that she won't make that connection prior to talking to Hakram, since he made the opposite choice here.

[Forum Explorer]

Also, Cat focusing on the politics is the wrong move here. She should abdicate as Queen of Callow and focus on the narrative side of this conflict.

Ironically, this would be Cat stepping closer to Hanno in Book 6, as she would only be focused on the Villains. and not confined by political borders.

I suspect that she won't make that connection prior to talking to Hakram, since he made the opposite choice here.

It's the bait the Wandering Bard talked about. That's the mistake Cat made in this chapter, that she can't quite put her finger on.

[Fable Wright]

Also, Cat focusing on the politics is the wrong move here. She should abdicate as Queen of Callow and focus on the narrative side of this conflict.

Ironically, this would be Cat stepping closer to Hanno in Book 6, as she would only be focused on the Villains. and not confined by political borders.

I suspect that she won't make that connection prior to talking to Hakram, since he made the opposite choice here.

Abdicating as Queen of Callow would be... bad, for Story reasons.

Callow invading Praes after Praes screws up is so deeply baked into Praesi culture that Hakram's tower-raising game that he made as a child in the Orcish steppe had one of the endings be "and Callow comes to kill everyone". Abdicating, surrendering her right to rule, means she's no longer synonymous with Callow, and suddenly cuts that narrative wind out from under her.

And that's not all. When it comes to rulers, Callow has stories. Conquering kings and queens of dynasties. Legends about what the first of a dynasty does can be especially powerful, considering that one of them is about a Crusade to permanently destroy an Evil Kingdom. Which she needs to pull off twice. Not to mention that her position as Queen of Callow is part of what gives Callow the diplomatic leverage it has over the League, and allows them to get what they need from the Dwarves. Additionally, if she's not Queen of Callow, there's problems when it comes to Vivienne's leadership of Callow. Either Catherine has authority over Vivienne, crippling the authority and diplomatic footing of Vivienne's new dynasty from the start, or Catherine doesn't have that authority, and shoots her coming Name in the foot.

Abandoning politics is not the solution. Getting the Dread Tyrant of Praes to offer her concede to her full access to the madness of the Tower's vaults is what she needs, story-wise and logistically, for the war. It's the question of whether it's hers by intrinsic authority, or by vassalage. That's where uncertainty lies, I think, and that's the Bard's play here.

[Mith]

Abdicating as Queen of Callow would be... bad, for Story reasons.

Callow invading Praes after Praes screws up is so deeply baked into Praesi culture that Hakram's tower-raising game that he made as a child in the Orcish steppe had one of the endings be "and Callow comes to kill everyone". Abdicating, surrendering her right to rule, means she's no longer synonymous with Callow, and suddenly cuts that narrative wind out from under her.

And that's not all. When it comes to rulers, Callow has stories. Conquering kings and queens of dynasties. Legends about what the first of a dynasty does can be especially powerful, considering that one of them is about a Crusade to permanently destroy an Evil Kingdom. Which she needs to pull off twice. Not to mention that her position as Queen of Callow is part of what gives Callow the diplomatic leverage it has over the League, and allows them to get what they need from the Dwarves. Additionally, if she's not Queen of Callow, there's problems when it comes to Vivienne's leadership of Callow. Either Catherine has authority over Vivienne, crippling the authority and diplomatic footing of Vivienne's new dynasty from the start, or Catherine doesn't have that authority, and shoots her coming Name in the foot.

Abandoning politics is not the solution. Getting the Dread Tyrant of Praes to offer her concede to her full access to the madness of the Tower's vaults is what she needs, story-wise and logistically, for the war. It's the question of whether it's hers by intrinsic authority, or by vassalage. That's where uncertainty lies, I think, and that's the Bard's play here.

Cat's authority is based on villains, not all Named, so she won't always have authority over Vivienne, unless she becomes someone in charge of just the East. Right now her influence is 'Everywhere except Keter and Procer, and she has a solid connection to Procer'.

She needs to keep politics in mind, but having Vivienne take on the political side (since she will be one of the political players in the East in the future) while she focuses on the Named dynamics of the conflict (one of the core dynamics of the Accords) is a a way to keep the focus on both sides while maintaining authority. Cat is still one of the two High Officers of the Truce and Terms, so her broad authority there still supersedes Vivienne in some capacity.

Cat's legacy will be using the Accords to bind the worst of Named under a higher law. Vivienne's legacy will be taking the foundation by Cat to bring Callow into the Age of Order. And that involves ensuring that Callow and Praes are in a stable relationship of mutual benefit.

[Rydiro]

There's never been a Warden of the West. That's just a title the First Prince holds. But it's never been a Name before now, ASAIKCat literally told Cordelia "There is a Name for what you do." (Implying Warden of the West, and that the Name is well known) In one of the West Interludes.

[tyckspoon]

Cat literally told Cordelia "There is a Name for what you do." (Implying Warden of the West, and that the Name is well known) In one of the West Interludes.

Not even implied, Cat explicitly calls it out like two sentences later. I don't think it was indicating that the Name previously existed, tho - just that it was very obviously coming into existence, and Cordelia was just as obviously the candidate for it. (I think previously Warden of the West was only an epithet for the First Prince and not its own separate Name because the First Prince.. didn't really care about The West. They cared about Procer, if Procer was lucky, and more often than not likely cared more about their own individual principality. Cordelia is forging it into a Name and Role by extending her influence and order over Levant and the Free Cities as well - making her mark on The West in truth and not just from the self-aggrandizing position where Procer is clearly the most important part of The West.)

If there were no other claimants then she was probably going to wind up with the Name whether she wanted or not, and needed to start being aware of what that brought with it (..like not tempting Creation by saying things like 'just as planned.') If Cordelia does not become Warden of the West it's going to be because Hanno stepped up to it instead.

I like the reflected Hero/Villain thing that is trying to develop here where Cordelia is Warden of the West in the protector sense of the word, while Cat seems to be trying to get directed into Warden of the East in the director of a prison sense of the word... and also that neither of them actually want that Name, with Cordelia preferring to not be Named at all and Cat perceiving it as a trap trying to divert her new Name away from whatever its real potential could be.

[Fable Wright]

Cat's authority is based on villains, not all Named, so she won't always have authority over Vivienne, unless she becomes someone in charge of just the East. Right now her influence is 'Everywhere except Keter and Procer, and she has a solid connection to Procer'.

Queen Vivienne needs to control the Army of Callow. This is a matter of quite a bit of importance, as a nation's sovereignty is bound to its military.

If Queen Vivienne rules, but the Black Queen commands the army, then Queen Vivienne is a weak ruler because, in the end, sovereignty resides with Catherine. Queen Vivienne will never escape the shadow of the Black Queen being able to command her armies in wartime. She will have less legitimacy, and stories of a house divided will force a conflict.

A full abdication will require the cessation of military command, which both isn't in Catherine's nature, and would shunt Catherine out of all the stories.


She needs to keep politics in mind, but having Vivienne take on the political side (since she will be one of the political players in the East in the future) while she focuses on the Named dynamics of the conflict (one of the core dynamics of the Accords) is a a way to keep the focus on both sides while maintaining authority. Cat is still one of the two High Officers of the Truce and Terms, so her broad authority there still supersedes Vivienne in some capacity.

The problem is that a story is a groove carved into the fabric of creation.

What Cat's doing has never been done before. A binding of all the Named, an Accord to limit them, an Arbiter or a Warden to enforce them, none of those have a carved groove yet. She's creating a precedent, much as her father did; a precedent that can be worn into a groove by the next generation, a role for them to follow, and the power that rewards them for being politically independent.

That story does not exist yet. What you're proposing is hacking off the masts of a galleon so she'd no longer be at the mercy of the winds. I mean, technically it works. But it's giving up the key driving force that lets the ship do its job in doing so. She can use the wind to sail in directions other than where the wind is directly blowing, and move with force she couldn't otherwise get. Giving that up right now is counterproductive.

[Mith]

Queen Vivienne needs to control the Army of Callow. This is a matter of quite a bit of importance, as a nation's sovereignty is bound to its military.

If Queen Vivienne rules, but the Black Queen commands the army, then Queen Vivienne is a weak ruler because, in the end, sovereignty resides with Catherine. Queen Vivienne will never escape the shadow of the Black Queen being able to command her armies in wartime. She will have less legitimacy, and stories of a house divided will force a conflict.

A full abdication will require the cessation of military command, which both isn't in Catherine's nature, and would shunt Catherine out of all the stories.



The problem is that a story is a groove carved into the fabric of creation.

What Cat's doing has never been done before. A binding of all the Named, an Accord to limit them, an Arbiter or a Warden to enforce them, none of those have a carved groove yet. She's creating a precedent, much as her father did; a precedent that can be worn into a groove by the next generation, a role for them to follow, and the power that rewards them for being politically independent.

That story does not exist yet. What you're proposing is hacking off the masts of a galleon so she'd no longer be at the mercy of the winds. I mean, technically it works. But it's giving up the key driving force that lets the ship do its job in doing so. She can use the wind to sail in directions other than where the wind is directly blowing, and move with force she couldn't otherwise get. Giving that up right now is counterproductive.

I guess the perspective I am taking on this is more 'The White Knight is the primary symbol as the head of the Crusade, but the White Knight doesn't rule nations'.

Unfortunately, the basis of why it doesn't seem like she's 'cutting off her own masts' draws on historical politics, so I'll drop that.

I guess my question is: if she is being forced to choose between the nations/geopolitics and overall Villain Named, how can she shift her approach so that she is tackling this problem from that angle?

The geopolitical focus will just be an over ruler Name rather than an integral enforcer of the Accords specifically.

[Fable Wright]

I guess the perspective I am taking on this is more 'The White Knight is the primary symbol as the head of the Crusade, but the White Knight doesn't rule nations'.

Yep! I can see that perspective. I guess what I'm viewing is that the White Knight has a Role, tied to uniting people in the face of a greater adversary. And the White Knight at the head of a Crusade is a tale as old as time. He is empowered by standing apart from politics by the Gods Above and his Role, but Catherine... doesn't, yet.


Unfortunately, the basis of why it doesn't seem like she's 'cutting off her own masts' draws on historical politics, so I'll drop that.

I agree—from a rational perspective, this should absolutely work, and has in the real-world past. :smallsmile:


I guess my question is: if she is being forced to choose between the nations/geopolitics and overall Villain Named, how can she shift her approach so that she is tackling this problem from that angle?

The geopolitical focus will just be an over ruler Name rather than an integral enforcer of the Accords specifically.

For my bet, I think she needs to meet with the Warlord, and pronounce a sentence on the Dread Empress of Praes. If she does anything but take counsel; dictate terms; and enforce them, she's out of the running for the villain game. That said? I'd say she needs to have Scribe handle the politics for her. Cat's handing things to a subordinate Name who no one trusts; isn't risking Vivienne's future; and Scribe will be able to get information for her through the meeting that Catherine wouldn't have herself.

Information control and political plotting is the Scribe's specialty. Delegating tasks to the Name fit for the job is exactly what an enforcer name would be about.

[Mith]

Yep! I can see that perspective. I guess what I'm viewing is that the White Knight has a Role, tied to uniting people in the face of a greater adversary. And the White Knight at the head of a Crusade is a tale as old as time. He is empowered by standing apart from politics by the Gods Above and his Role, but Catherine... doesn't, yet.



I agree—from a rational perspective, this should absolutely work, and has in the real-world past. :smallsmile:



For my bet, I think she needs to meet with the Warlord, and pronounce a sentence on the Dread Empress of Praes. If she does anything but take counsel; dictate terms; and enforce them, she's out of the running for the villain game. That said? I'd say she needs to have Scribe handle the politics for her. Cat's handing things to a subordinate Name who no one trusts; isn't risking Vivienne's future; and Scribe will be able to get information for her through the meeting that Catherine wouldn't have herself.

Information control and political plotting is the Scribe's specialty. Delegating tasks to the Name fit for the job is exactly what an enforcer name would be about.

Cat is empowered by no one else around being able to overrule her save Sve Noc themselves. This is comparable in power to the White Knight, just not fully acknowledged due to Cat juggling so many hats for so long. Her doing so broadened her influence such that she had to be seen as the same broad weight as the centuries/millennia of White Knights. She is essentially Triumphant returned except most people want her to stick around. Since she is doing constructive work rather than large-scale construction, she will have a much larger shadow than the Empress Most Dread.

On a completely different note: Sve Noc may end up fully on par with Angels in time if they are this tied to the heart of the new Age, and one of it's chief founders. Their manifestation would be allowed by the Accords.

This assumes that this influence/period of relative peace enables them to recover and thrive in this new setting. Arguably the relative conditions of the drow have gotten worst since Cat arrived. However, it can actually improve in the future.

Still do not like the complete lack of narrative acknowledgement on the drow front.

[Fable Wright]

Cat is empowered by no one else around being able to overrule her save Sve Noc themselves. This is comparable in power to the White Knight, just not fully acknowledged due to Cat juggling so many hats for so long. Her doing so broadened her influence such that she had to be seen as the same broad weight as the centuries/millennia of White Knights. She is essentially Triumphant returned except most people want her to stick around. Since she is doing constructive work rather than large-scale construction, she will have a much larger shadow than the Empress Most Dread.

Eh... No one else around is able to make Ranger do anything she doesn't want to do, except maybe the Golden Bloom. This is greater in power than the White Knight, and she's up there with the Saint of Swords in terms of 'people who could kill the Dead King'. Ranger + Severance is a terrifying thought. But Ranger couldn't make the Accords work if she wanted to, because she doesn't have a country to bind them to.

In terms of broad influence, Amadeus the Black Knight was the terror of a continent for decades, and was romping merrily around Procer for months as his name grew weaker, because that wasn't what his Role was for. His Name would fizzle out if he tried to bring people together in a unified coalition to fight a greater evil, if he didn't become a Claimant for the White Knight.

Perceived influence and power ≠ narrative empowerment, is all I'm saying. :smallsmile:


On a completely different note: Sve Noc may end up fully on par with Angels in time if they are this tied to the heart of the new Age, and one of it's chief founders. Their manifestation would be allowed by the Accords.

I... do not think Sve Noc could end up on par with the seven Choirs. One angel-corpse is enough to blast half of Calernia to dust. They act as the backers for a large percentage of Heroes. And most importantly, those Seven Choirs are equivalent in power to all of the infinite Hells and all the demons and devils living in them. They the Gods Above's equal and opposite answer to Bellow's Hell. A God Below that's free to act on Creation with the equivalent power of the combined hand of the infinite Hells would ruin the balance of power, and with it, the Wager that keeps the world in place.


Still do not like the complete lack of narrative acknowledgement on the drow front.

Yeah. Half of the Drow power source getting Ruined when facing against the Dead King, now that he has effective weapons, is... not great. I would say that this is a no news is good news thing, though—because of the nature of Sve Noc, Catherine would know if the Drow front collapsed entirely. It's just not as important as the Greater Breaches.

[Mith]

Eh... No one else around is able to make Ranger do anything she doesn't want to do, except maybe the Golden Bloom. This is greater in power than the White Knight, and she's up there with the Saint of Swords in terms of 'people who could kill the Dead King'. Ranger + Severance is a terrifying thought. But Ranger couldn't make the Accords work if she wanted to, because she doesn't have a country to bind them to.

In terms of broad influence, Amadeus the Black Knight was the terror of a continent for decades, and was romping merrily around Procer for months as his name grew weaker, because that wasn't what his Role was for. His Name would fizzle out if he tried to bring people together in a unified coalition to fight a greater evil, if he didn't become a Claimant for the White Knight.

Perceived influence and power ≠ narrative empowerment, is all I'm saying. :smallsmile:



I... do not think Sve Noc could end up on par with the seven Choirs. One angel-corpse is enough to blast half of Calernia to dust. They act as the backers for a large percentage of Heroes. And most importantly, those Seven Choirs are equivalent in power to all of the infinite Hells and all the demons and devils living in them. They the Gods Above's equal and opposite answer to Bellow's Hell. A God Below that's free to act on Creation with the equivalent power of the combined hand of the infinite Hells would ruin the balance of power, and with it, the Wager that keeps the world in place.



Yeah. Half of the Drow power source getting Ruined when facing against the Dead King, now that he has effective weapons, is... not great. I would say that this is a no news is good news thing, though—because of the nature of Sve Noc, Catherine would know if the Drow front collapsed entirely. It's just not as important as the Greater Breaches.

The Hells are banned under the Accords though. And Heroes still have priests with Light on top of Named wielding Light.

Fair enough argument regarding scale of Sve Noc. I was more reflecting on Sve Noc having that stand off with the Choir of Mercy where they had the leverage to win against the Choir, and thinking that if Sve Noc as a readily available patron for Below exists at the heart of Cardinal (the Hall of the Damned founded by First Under Night) means that they are likely to gain more influence in time.

Regarding the corpse, it's unclear if it's 'one angel' of power or calling down the full choir (or if there is a distinction there). Considering other feats of divine might (Contrition's mind blast, Pilgrim's Shine, Judgement's Smite), I think the bomb is something more like the upper end of Judgement's attention.

[Eurus]

Regarding the corpse, it's unclear if it's 'one angel' of power or calling down the full choir (or if there is a distinction there). Considering other feats of divine might (Contrition's mind blast, Pilgrim's Shine, Judgement's Smite), I think the bomb is something more like the upper end of Judgement's attention.

Yeah, I'm kinda curious about that too. If Judgment is capable of blasting the entire continent with its judging magic, the question rises as to why they haven't just done that before, since they seem to generally be in favor of judging people. I can think of a few plausible reasons, but I'm hoping we get a confirmed one at some point.

[The Glyphstone]

Was the next chapter going to be delayed for some reason?

[MammonAzrael]

Was the next chapter going to be delayed for some reason?

Yup. https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2021/06/25/chapter-delay/

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, thanks. I couldn't see that in the ToC.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah, I'm kinda curious about that too. If Judgment is capable of blasting the entire continent with its judging magic, the question rises as to why they haven't just done that before, since they seem to generally be in favor of judging people. I can think of a few plausible reasons, but I'm hoping we get a confirmed one at some point.

It seems likely they can only directly act when called upon by a mortal actor (the why of this I don't think has been stated, but it seems consistent with events. A term of the Wager, perhaps) but once they have been given that opening to act their power can be further altered (the concern over the Bard getting to influence the activation of the angel-corpse) or they may act in a broader fashion than the initial requestor wanted. There also seems to be a significant difference in scale between channeling the power or attention of a Choir and actually having an angel present in Creation; possible Judgement literally cannot attempt to scour the entire continent without something like the angel-corpse being used to create a much wider link for that power.

[druid91]

Yeah, I'm kinda curious about that too. If Judgment is capable of blasting the entire continent with its judging magic, the question rises as to why they haven't just done that before, since they seem to generally be in favor of judging people. I can think of a few plausible reasons, but I'm hoping we get a confirmed one at some point.

I mean they kind of said that. Because it would get balanced out elsewhere.

[lord_khaine]

If Judgment is capable of blasting the entire continent with its judging magic

The important thing to remember here, is that its not going to be Judgment blasting the entire continent.
Its going to be a mortal ruler using a super weapon. That just happens to be build from the corpse of an angel.

And what people then fear, is the Wandering Bard nudging the dial of said weapon up past 11 to OverKill.

Edit.
As for black. Im making the prediction now, that what he is going to kill is the tower itself.
Hence all the goblingfire.

[Rydiro]

Yeah, I'm kinda curious about that too. If Judgment is capable of blasting the entire continent with its judging magic, the question rises as to why they haven't just done that before, since they seem to generally be in favor of judging people. I can think of a few plausible reasons, but I'm hoping we get a confirmed one at some point.They seem to need priests to power up the weapon. The energy seems to come from mortals.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah, I'm kinda curious about that too. If Judgment is capable of blasting the entire continent with its judging magic, the question rises as to why they haven't just done that before, since they seem to generally be in favor of judging people. I can think of a few plausible reasons, but I'm hoping we get a confirmed one at some point.

I'm reasonably certain the other Big G gods would stop it from happening. They have rules they force everyone yo abide by.

Evil gods can grant miracles of any size as long as there is an equivalently large sacrifice. The Drow got Night for ceasing to have children and then later switch it to for eating each other. Tyrants get to use human sacrifice to power impossible rituals, like KotD did or Triumphant.

Good gods like the Choirs intervene to balance the game. At Thassalonica one of the gods intervened after Warlock used mass human sacrifice to power up the wards, for example, and Triumphant was opposed by angels.