Standard Fochlucan Lyrist

[cartejos]

I know its not optimal, but lets brainstorm some ideas for an easy fochlucan lyrist build

My starting point is
Bard 1/Rogue 2/Druid 2/Green Whisperer 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

None of the prestige classes require feats, so all of the feats are open.

The first thought I had was a Summoner, and to that extent I was thinking of losing out on the first level skill points to switch druid to be the first 2 levels of the build.

The text for green whisperer advance Bars and Druid spellcasting. Its dragon material, what did you expect?

[Nifft]

A common optimization is to pay 2 feats from Magic of Incarnum to get Evasion (Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots + Open Lesser Chakra: Feet), which allows you to use a mix of just Druid and Bard for your first 5 levels.

Bard 1 / Druid 4 / Green Whisperer 5 / Fochluchan Lyrist 10, for example, only loses 1 spellcaster level from Druid.

[RNightstalker]

Starting with Rogue will net the most skill points if that's a concern at all.

[Kaleph]

If you believe that druidic may be learned also without having actual druid levels (and it is actually possible), then I'd recommend my sha'ir build:

Crane clan human Human paragon 1 / Sha'ir 1 / Human paragon +2 / Geomancer 4 / Warrior skald 1 / Sha'ir +1 / Sublime chord 1 / Fochlucan lyrist 9

You may look in my sig to find the sha'ir handbook, where some further details on the build are provided.

[ThanatosZero]

Despite what others may say, but you can actually use magic items to qualify.

Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.

As such a Ring of Evasion allows you to qualify.



Also here a functional build, while we are at it.

Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

With this build you will have either 15 BAB or 17 BAB with UA's fractional rules (alternatively 16 BAB if you argue that BAB progressions only stack with the same type), 17/20 Druid Spellcasting and 10/10 Sublime Chord Spellcasting.

Bard: Medium (0,75) x2
Druid: Medium (0,75) x3
Green Whisperer: Medium (0,75) x5
Sublime Chord: Poor (0,50) x1
Fochlucan Lyrist: Good (1,00) x9

10x 0,75 + 1x 0,50 + 9x 1,00 = 17,00 BAB

[Jervis]

I know it works but qualifying with a ring of evasion is just not safe, you're one sleight of hand check away from loosing up too 10 levels of casting from two classes.

[ThanatosZero]

I know it works but qualifying with a ring of evasion is just not safe, you're one sleight of hand check away from loosing up too 10 levels of casting from two classes.
I argue, that the magical training in the prestige class just doesn't go away, if the Ring of Evasion goes missing.
The following is now RAI, but that still needs to be heard.

A Fochlucan Lyrist may need the Ring of Evasion to enter the college for to benefit from the teachings of the other fochlucan lyrists, but the training in the divine and the arts doesn't just go away, if you remove the ring.

That is super silly and immersion breaking.
It is like the ring itself became the extension of your brain.

However what makes more sense is, that you will need it to advance further in the class.
The college staff itself will put you under a test, that you make your reflex saves and come out of it unharmed, before they reveal new secrets to you.

[Bphill561]

If you believe that druidic may be learned also without having actual druid levels (and it is actually possible), then I'd recommend my sha'ir build:

Crane clan human Human paragon 1 / Sha'ir 1 / Human paragon +2 / Geomancer 4 / Warrior skald 1 / Sha'ir +1 / Sublime chord 1 / Fochlucan lyrist 9

You may look in my sig to find the sha'ir handbook, where some further details on the build are provided.

As above, the bard college region from Forgotten realms allows you to learn any language, as it lacks the statement you cannot learn restricted languages like some other sources. Also the Hellbred race remembers languages from its previous life.


I argue, that the magical training in the prestige class just doesn't go away, if the Ring of Evasion goes missing.
The following is now RAI, but that still needs to be heard.

A Fochlucan Lyrist may need the Ring of Evasion to enter the college for to benefit from the teachings of the other fochlucan lyrists, but the training in the divine and the arts doesn't just go away, if you remove the ring.

That is super silly and immersion breaking.
It is like the ring itself became the extension of your brain.

However what makes more sense is, that you will need it to advance further in the class.
The college staff itself will put you under a test, that you make your reflex saves and come out of it unharmed, before they reveal new secrets to you.

Again it works, but not the safest option. Especially when you want to bring house rules to a forum where they are not universally applied (not rehashing if you just need to maintain pre-reqs argument that appears on the forums) . One trick could be to use the illithaid weapon graft. Make a +1 magic poison ring with evasion on it (since it is a ring that is a weapon) and graft it on. You retain all properties, but it is not longer magical so no disjunction or stealing it short of cutting off your hand. But again, you would need to be allowed to make custom items as per the DMG. Of course another problem is the ring is 25,000gp which is not trivial by level 10 as it is more than half your expected wealth at that level.

As for simple builds, yours or the sublime chord variant are probably as simple as you can with the crazy entry requirements. The sublime chord already requires a ton of skill points. Add in greenbond summoning and augmented summoning feats if summoning is your focus.

As for complicated, not a druid at all with a touch of ThanatosZero game style

Human with Bardic College Region

Bard 2/Fighter 2/Bard 2/Spell Sword 1/Spell Dancer 2/ Divine Crusader 1/Sublime Chord 1/ F. Lyrist 9

Human 1 Extend Spell
Level 1 Sanctum Spell
Fighter 2 Dodge
Fighter 3 Mobility
Level 3 Endurance
Level 6 Combat Casting
Level 9 Weapon Focus
Level 12 Persistent Spell
15, 18 Open (Maybe Practiced Spell Caster Sublime Chord and Ocular Spell)

Spell Dancer gets evasion at level 2, BAB of 16 at level 20
Bard Progression 7 for 3rd level spells, Sublime Chord 9th level Bard/Sorc Spells, Divine Crusader 9th level spells from one domain
All casting is off of Cha

Still screwy because you need sanctum spell for early entry tactics. It boosts your spell by one spell level while in your sanctum. Does that mean if you leave the sanctum you count as not being able to cast the higher level spell for PrC entry because you cannot do it at that moment? I always thought it would be funny if a caster uses up all level 3 spell slots for the day they would fall out of a PrC. Hell, a zone of silence, lack of a spell pouch, or bound hands would be the same.

Spell dancer (and Sublime Chord) is tricky because since you need 3rd level spells and you have progression of bard 5 at that point. Level up in you Sanctum. If you are in the camp that outside you sanctum you now count as never being able to cast higher level spells, just loss the progression on the first level of Spell dancer when you are outside. When it is time to level again, do so in your sanctum. The second level of Spell dancer will get you to a progression of 7 in bard self qualifying itself and for Sublime Chord.

If outside your sanctum does not mean you are cut off for entry requirements, you can drop a level of bard for a second level of spell sword for a free weapon focus feat. Then you can take persistent spell earlier. Safer with the bard levels though. Also since you no longer need Sanctum spell for qualification, you can Dark Shuffle (or retrain) it out for a different feat if that is not banned in your game.

[Nifft]

That is super silly and immersion breaking.
It is like the ring itself became the extension of your brain.

At the point where you allow a magic item to qualify you for a PrC prereq, you open the door for a lot of other questionable interactions which I personally prefer to not invite.

That's definitely one of them, and yes it's pretty silly, but it's just a logical extension of the silly premise that magic items could satisfy prereqs.

However as a balance mechanic, requiring that you wear that ring forever -- i.e. that you choose to pay a body-slot in place of feat-slots or class-level-slots -- isn't necessarily terrible, and might even be less silly than some of the mechanics which I do accept easily. So maybe it's not a bad idea, even if it has some silly consequences.

Personally I don't allow the ring to act as a prereq, but maybe I should.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Bphill561
As above, the bard college region from Forgotten realms allows you to learn any language, as it lacks the statement you cannot learn restricted languages like some other sources.

What's the source for this one?

[Darg]

I know it works but qualifying with a ring of evasion is just not safe, you're one sleight of hand check away from loosing up too 10 levels of casting from two classes.

This depends on the group. RAW there is no standard loss of abilities for PrCs if you lose prerequisites. Splat books are optional rules. If one doesn't possess CArc or CW it's as if it doesn't exist. The evasion requirement is from left field anyway.

[Bphill561]

What's the source for this one?

Champions of Valor has Bardic Tutelage on page 21 and 22. My bad, it means you come from a bardic college but is not called bardic college.

[Anthrowhale]

The spelldancer approach is nice.

Another way to handle things is via: Bard 1/Mystic Ranger 9/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9. This gives BAB+18 and 9th level sorcerer spells with good skill access and a large number of level 1-5 spell slots for ranger and wizard spells. You'll benefit from Able Learner at level 1 for easier skill reqs, Shooting Star (Ranger) at level 4 for increased caster level, and Sword of the Arcane Order at level 6 to qualify for Sublime Chord. You'll need to convince someone to teach you druidic.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Bphill561
Champions of Valor has Bardic Tutelage on page 21 and 22.

That's a good catch. I've never seen that mentioned for learning Druidic before.

[Rebel7284]

Here are some way that I know of to learning Druidic as a non-druid:
- Hellbred Race: Explicitly know any languages from their previous life. Most reliable and explicit way in 3.5.
- Shad Race: From Planescape so may or may not be allowed.
- A certain reading of the ritual that turns you into a Spellscale may allow you to keep languages regardless of class. Might require some shenanigans.
- Poorly written items/spells that don't explicitly ban secret languages may works as well such as Pearl of Speech from MIC.

[Thurbane]

I believe a couple of races from Dragon Compendium, Davati and Tibbit, have wording that allows ANY language as a bonus language, without the usual "other than secret languages, such as Druidic" wording.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Another option for learning druidic is to rosetta stone it.

Find some text in druidic that you, one way or another, know what it is in principle, get a copy in a language you do know, and study it over a period of time until you can justify to your GM that you ought to be able to go ahead the 2 points to learn druidic from having simply deciphered it.

Easy one for finding the text is through comprehend languages. You can even then write it out in your own language and then study it without the spell until it "clicks."

Previous druidic owner and/or associates of the same may be a tad peeved about you having it though, so head's up on that.

[RNightstalker]

Here are some way that I know of to learning Druidic as a non-druid:
- Hellbred Race: Explicitly know any languages from their previous life. Most reliable and explicit way in 3.5.
- Shad Race: From Planescape so may or may not be allowed.
- A certain reading of the ritual that turns you into a Spellscale may allow you to keep languages regardless of class. Might require some shenanigans.
- Poorly written items/spells that don't explicitly ban secret languages may works as well such as Pearl of Speech from MIC.

If you retrain a level of druid, would you automatically unlearn druidic?

[Rebel7284]

If you retrain a level of druid, would you automatically unlearn druidic?

Probably? Much of the flavor of retraining is forgetting old abilities to get new ones. Unless you were a spellscale that learned it not because of being a druid but because the ritual said you know all of your languages at the time of rebirth. I was thinking more permanent level drain on the druid level after spellscale ritual, but retraining may work too.

[Zaq]

If you retrain a level of druid, would you automatically unlearn druidic?

I mean, you'd also forget how to cast druid spells, so that's not really that different from forgetting a language that you're presumably no longer using.

[Kaleph]

Another option for learning druidic is to rosetta stone it.
(...)
Easy one for finding the text is through comprehend languages.
(...)


This. Actually, I've always thought that an easy way to learn druidic would be to have a musteval familiar of a friendly wizard as a teacher; since they have tongues always on, I assume that they can do it, but honestly I've been always too lazy to check the RAW for it.

[RNightstalker]

I mean, you'd also forget how to cast druid spells, so that's not really that different from forgetting a language that you're presumably no longer using.

Someone that retrains a level of druid "forgets" how to cast spells because their deity no longer grants them the spells. But as far as the language goes?

[Nifft]

Someone that retrains a level of druid "forgets" how to cast spells because their deity no longer grants them the spells. But as far as the language goes?

Wasn't the language itself magical in some versions of D&D?

Not sure if that's ever mentioned or implied in 3.5e, but it sure feels like some writers were relying on the Druidic language being supernaturally exclusive.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Nifft
Not sure if that's ever mentioned or implied in 3.5e, but it sure feels like some writers were relying on the Druidic language being supernaturally exclusive.

I never had that impression from 3.5. It's a secret language that one learns during one's druidic training, but otherwise no different from other languages.

[Eurus]

The thing that bugs me the most is the skill requirements, honestly. A theurge class that doesn't open until level 11 is very annoying.

There are some fun entries depending on what prerequisites you're willing to allow with what. If you let abilities that work identically to Bardic Knowledge but have different names count (which probably isn't RAW, but it's fun, so whatever), a bard-less entry with one level of Spellsinger for music and one level of Loremaster for knowledge is a fun idea. If you're willing to allow learning druidic through some source without a druid level, you could do Wizard/Divine Bard, which would be kinda cute.

Using incarnum feats for evasion is probably a better option than rogue levels, that's such an annoying joke requirement (bards needed to multiclass rogue in older editions, afaik, but they have absolutely no relation in 3.5) but at least it's manageable.