What is the earliest the mailman build can come online?

[Melcar]

So, I basically need a level 10 mailman build. I'm not that intimate with the build, so I would love, if possible, some help making it work - or getting it as close to working as possible at around level 10-11.

So how would one fashion a sorcerer at level 10, that resembles the mailman as much as possible?

If that's impossible, what else sorcerer builds are good at around level 10?

Thanks!

[Anthrowhale]

So how would one fashion a sorcerer at level 10, that resembles the mailman as much as possible?


It's very possible. Arcane Fusion[Orb, Lesser Orb] is generating touch attacks that you can typically hit with dealing 10d6+5d8(average 57.5) damage + a rider effect. Taking the Planar Sorcerer subsitution level at Sorcerer 5, you can make half of that damage be force. This is already effective in a low op game where 57.5 damage is a substantial fraction of a CR 10 monster.

The best metamagic approach is to use Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion] to cast Easy[Twin] Cooperative Twin Arcane Fusion as +0 metamagic at caster level +2. Using that, you can deal 2*(12d6+5d8) (average 129) damage + two riders which is enough to outright kill many CR 10 opponents and disable them otherwise with a high chance. Adding in some area effect damage choices and shivering touch gives you some substantial versatility.

Alternatively, you can focus on stacking metamagic on a single spell. This is more limited, but can also be effective via the use of Ocular Spell and Split Ray.

[Melcar]

It's very possible. Arcane Fusion[Orb, Lesser Orb] is generating touch attacks that you can typically hit with dealing 10d6+5d8(average 57.5) damage + a rider effect. Taking the Planar Sorcerer subsitution level at Sorcerer 5, you can make half of that damage be force. This is already effective in a low op game where 57.5 damage is a substantial fraction of a CR 10 monster.

The best metamagic approach is to use Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion] to cast Easy[Twin] Cooperative Twin Arcane Fusion as +0 metamagic at caster level +2. Using that, you can deal 2*(12d6+5d8) (average 129) damage + two riders which is enough to outright kill many CR 10 opponents and disable them otherwise with a high chance. Adding in some area effect damage choices and shivering touch gives you some substantial versatility.

Alternatively, you can focus on stacking metamagic on a single spell. This is more limited, but can also be effective via the use of Ocular Spell and Split Ray.

Cool... What classes should I have from 1-10 then? I assume something else than 6 Sorcerer/ 4 Incantatrix? But I'm honestly not sure. Again, while I know the gist of the build, I am not familiar with the mechanical formula to achieve said high damage output.

Also, I'm going to be using Star Elf as race... what good ACF are there out there for me?

Thanks!

[Troacctid]

The earliest is level 6. That's when Arcane Thesis, the core of the build, first becomes available.

[RNightstalker]

For those of us not familiar, what is the mailman build?

Also, is there a glossary for the forum about such things and abbreviations?

[Zarvistic]

If it's only going to level 10, then you'll be spending a lot of time in the 1-9 range. So if the goal is to play a blaster, I think warmage would play a lot better. Spell thematics, spell gifted for conjuration, knowledge devotion and then more caster level boosting, that sort of thing. Mostly dex and int with enough cha to cast/bonus spells. Acid arrow at level 4 with CL 6 hits really hard this way, so do the level 1 orbs.

[DeAnno]

At level 10 you're in a pretty good place, but you don't want to overreach your slots and rely entirely on the 5ths or you'll have no gas. Even spamming Celerity will have a tendency to nova all your resources in one encounter, though you should definitely know it for emergencies/finishers. Sorc 6/Incantrix 4 is a fine path and will be hard to beat without diving into some seriously silly stuff.

While I don't like to overly rely on Arcane Thesis for a number of reasons at low levels you find yourself needing its punch a lot more to get things done. That being said Arcane Thesis on Arcane Fusion has a lot of problems at level 10, the first problem being you can't do it because you learn AF at 10 and get feats at 6 and 9. I actually recommend you take your AT in your Feat 6 slot for either a second or third level spell.

If some of the more well used spells don't interest you, Melf's Unicorn Arrow from PHBII is actually quite versatile and efficient (1d8 + 8 times 3 at CL 12), though you should check with your DM beforehand if it's subject to DR or not. It goes well with the "canon" reading of Empower that multiplies adders as well as damage dice, but obviously not with Maximize. Also it can have some accuracy issues because True Strike doesn't work, but it makes up for it a little by being able to split damage.

The build overall probably looks something like:
1) Iron Will
3) Metamagic
6) Thesis
7M) Metamagic
9) Metamagic or possibly a Metamagic Reducer
10M) Metamagic

Which metas you choose has a lot to do with the exact rules you're playing with; for example a lot of DMs will deny the ability to use a 0 cost metamagic to apply -1 to the spell level with Arcane Thesis, which would have you looking at a large volume of medium adjustment metas (ones similar to Empower) instead of the more popularized Twin+tons of 0s.

[Melcar]

At level 10 you're in a pretty good place, but you don't want to overreach your slots and rely entirely on the 5ths or you'll have no gas. Even spamming Celerity will have a tendency to nova all your resources in one encounter, though you should definitely know it for emergencies/finishers. Sorc 6/Incantrix 4 is a fine path and will be hard to beat without diving into some seriously silly stuff.

While I don't like to overly rely on Arcane Thesis for a number of reasons at low levels you find yourself needing its punch a lot more to get things done. That being said Arcane Thesis on Arcane Fusion has a lot of problems at level 10, the first problem being you can't do it because you learn AF at 10 and get feats at 6 and 9. I actually recommend you take your AT in your Feat 6 slot for either a second or third level spell.

If some of the more well used spells don't interest you, Melf's Unicorn Arrow from PHBII is actually quite versatile and efficient (1d8 + 8 times 3 at CL 12), though you should check with your DM beforehand if it's subject to DR or not. It goes well with the "canon" reading of Empower that multiplies adders as well as damage dice, but obviously not with Maximize. Also it can have some accuracy issues because True Strike doesn't work, but it makes up for it a little by being able to split damage.

The build overall probably looks something like:
1) Iron Will
3) Metamagic
6) Thesis
7M) Metamagic
9) Metamagic or possibly a Metamagic Reducer
10M) Metamagic

Which metas you choose has a lot to do with the exact rules you're playing with; for example a lot of DMs will deny the ability to use a 0 cost metamagic to apply -1 to the spell level with Arcane Thesis, which would have you looking at a large volume of medium adjustment metas (ones similar to Empower) instead of the more popularized Twin+tons of 0s.

So assuming I'm casting an Empowered, Splitray, Fiery, Blistering, Orb of Fire, through Arcane fusion as a level 10 I'm doing [(12d6+12+8)x1.5]x2? Or am I doing [(12d6x1.5)+12+8]x2?

[Troacctid]

Orb of fire unfortunately isn't a ray, so Split Ray doesn't work with it. You could try Searing Spell, Corrupt Spell (with a Stone Socket of Gruumsh), Radiant Spell, City Magic, Fell Weaken, Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, or Ocular Spell instead.

[Melcar]

Orb of fire unfortunately isn't a ray, so Split Ray doesn't work with it. You could try Searing Spell, Corrupt Spell (with a Stone Socket of Gruumsh), Radiant Spell, City Magic, Fell Weaken, Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, or Ocular Spell instead.

The diffinitionj of Ray is:
"Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at.

If a ray spell has a duration, it’s the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.

If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit."

How is that different from the orb spell except the name? AFAIK, spells are rays, because of the mechanics not name... I also challenge you to find the diffinition of an orb spell as something different.

What im saying is that a spell can either be a cone, cylinder, line, spread, burst, emanation, sphere, tageted or ray... there is no orb! Ergo, spell that require a ranged touch attack is a ray, whether or not the spell in question is actually a ray or has "ray" in the name...

If not, where are orbs mechanics rules stated?

[Troacctid]

The diffinitionj of Ray is: "All ray attacks require the attacker to make a successful ranged touch attack against the target. Rays have varying ranges, which are simple maximums. A ray’s attack roll never takes a range penalty. Even if a ray hits, it usually allows the target to make a saving throw (Fortitude or Will). Rays never allow a Reflex saving throw, but if a character’s Dexterity bonus to AC is high, it might be hard to hit her with the ray in the first place."

How is that different from the orb spell except the name? AFAIK, orb spells are rays, because of the mechanics not name... I also challenge you to find the diffinition of an orb spell as something different.

What im saying is that a spell can either be a cone, cylinder, line, spread, burst, emanation, sphere or ray... there is no orb! Every spell that require a ranged touch attack is a ray, whether or not the spell in question is actually a ray...

If not, what mechanics rule orbs if not the rules for rays?
All rays are ranged touch attacks, but not all ranged touch attacks are rays. A spell is a ray if it says it's a ray. For example, polar ray says "Effect: Ray," while Melf's acid arrow says "Effect: One arrow of acid."

[Calthropstu]

Level one.

First, you take your level 1 human commoner. Take the skills profession:mailman, knowledge:engineering, craft:carpentry. Behold! Your mailman builds!

Hope this helps!

[Melcar]

All rays are ranged touch attacks, but not all ranged touch attacks are rays. A spell is a ray if it says it's a ray. For example, polar ray says "Effect: Ray," while Melf's acid arrow says "Effect: One arrow of acid."

I would challenge that and ask where is says that? I would argue that since there is no effect which is an arrow or orb, they all follow the rules for rays... What im saying is that orb of X is a ray spell that manifests as an orb... same with melfs acis arrow... Because what else could it be?

[Troacctid]

I would challenge that and ask where is says that? I would argue that since there is no effect which is an arrow or orb, they all follow the rules for rays... What im saying is that orb of X is a ray spell that manifests as an orb... same with melfs acis arrow... Because what else could it be?
They are ranged weaponlike spells. It's a broader category that includes both rays and other ranged spells like acid arrow, orb of fire, and meteor swarm. You can find the relevant rules in Complete Arcane or Rules Compendium.

[Rynjin]

For those of us not familiar, what is the mailman build?

Also, is there a glossary for the forum about such things and abbreviations?

There was a thread a while back defining a lot of common terms/abbreviations (like RAW, RAI, Tippyverse, Stormwind, etc.), but absolutely nobody mentioned this one.

Which leads me to believe it's not actually that common a term, but common enough to be frustrating when 3 people launch into a discussion of it.

[Melcar]

They are ranged weaponlike spells. It's a broader category that includes both rays and other ranged spells like acid arrow, orb of fire, and meteor swarm. You can find the relevant rules in Complete Arcane or Rules Compendium.

Ok so, AFAICT, there is no difference between the orb spells and basically any ray spell. They are equal except by name. Thats probably why we at our table have been treating every spell that requires a ranged touch attach as a ray, because there is litterally no difference.

So to have my way, I'm homebrewing a version of the orb of Fire spell that is word for word the same, and does exsctly what the standard orb of fire spell, but includes ray in the effect line... so now I can split ray Orb of Fire! Am I the only one who find these kinds of sematic antics stupid? Anyways, back to my question: what damage would I be dealing?

1) (12d6+20)x1.5 or
2) (12d6x1.5)+20

Thanks!

[RNightstalker]

There was a thread a while back defining a lot of common terms/abbreviations (like RAW, RAI, Tippyverse, Stormwind, etc.), but absolutely nobody mentioned this one.

Which leads me to believe it's not actually that common a term, but common enough to be frustrating when 3 people launch into a discussion of it.

Got a link handy? There are a lot of possible search terms for that...

[Anthrowhale]

That being said Arcane Thesis on Arcane Fusion has a lot of problems at level 10, the first problem being you can't do it because you learn AF at 10 and get feats at 6 and 9.
There is a valid path via using wealth by level to pay for Embrace the Dark Chaos / Shun the Dark Chaos using spellcasting services (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell). Each spell costs 2450 (i.e. less than the 3K limit), so it's 4900 in total. This should be checked with the DM to make sure it's appropriate optimization level-wise. When starting at level 10, I expect AT[AF] to age much better than AT on some particular spell.

The point about not having enough L5 spells seems very valid. Maybe Versatile Spellcaster would help here? That should allow you to drop at least one L5 spell per encounter. So, combining with your suggestions, something like:

1. Versatile Spellcaster
3. <Metamagic>
5. Planar sorcerer
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6. Arcane Thesis[X] -> Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion]
Incantatrix 1: Invisible Spell
9. Twin Spell
Incantatrix 4: Easy[Twin]

Would allow you to deliver about 7 Invisible Easy[Twin] Twin Arcane Fusions per day.

Edit: also DeAnno's original mailman build is copied here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?447435-quot-The-Mailman-A-Direct-Damage-Sorcerer-quot-(from-Wizards-forums)).

Another edit: A researched orb-which-is-a-ray is a very powerful spell because it's creating an SR:No ray. SR:No matters quite a bit at higher levels because SR is often balanced so there is an even chance it blocks spells. Hence, an SR:No ray hits about twice as often as an SR:Yes ray. There are very few SR:No rays, none of which seem to be a reliable damage source. I'd suggest making it at least level 5 as orbs are already strong level 4 spells between good damage, a rider, no save, and SR:No. Making it a ray opens up split ray which is like twin spell except only +2 metamagic.

[Melcar]

There is a valid path via using wealth by level to pay for Embrace the Dark Chaos / Shun the Dark Chaos using spellcasting services (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell). Each spell costs 2450 (i.e. less than the 3K limit), so it's 4900 in total. This should be checked with the DM to make sure it's appropriate optimization level-wise. When starting at level 10, I expect AT[AF] to age much better than AT on some particular spell.

The point about not having enough L5 spells seems very valid. Maybe Versatile Spellcaster would help here? That should allow you to drop at least one L5 spell per encounter. So, combining with your suggestions, something like:

1. Versatile Spellcaster
3. <Metamagic>
5. Planar sorcerer
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6. Arcane Thesis[X] -> Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion]
Incantatrix 1: Invisible Spell
9. Twin Spell
Incantatrix 4: Easy[Twin]

Would allow you to deliver about 7 Invisible Easy[Twin] Twin Arcane Fusions per day.

Edit: also DeAnno's original mailman build is copied here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?447435-quot-The-Mailman-A-Direct-Damage-Sorcerer-quot-(from-Wizards-forums)).

Another edit: A researched orb-which-is-a-ray is a very powerful spell because it's creating an SR:No ray. SR:No matters quite a bit at higher levels because SR is often balanced so there is an even chance it blocks spells. Hence, an SR:No ray hits about twice as often as an SR:Yes ray. There are very few SR:No rays, none of which seem to be a reliable damage source. I'd suggest making it at least level 5 as orbs are already strong level 4 spells between good damage, a rider, no save, and SR:No. Making it a ray opens up split ray which is like twin spell except only +2 metamagic.

Question, why would you arcane thesis arcane fusion? Aren't the spells you pick with arcane fusion the ones you need to arcane thesis? Like my orb of fire? Is it not the orb that I need to modify with metamagic? And not the arcane fusion? This part confuses me...

I too researched ranged touch attacks spells such as orbs and rays, and I can't find any mechanically difference. I also cant find anything that should make one mechanically identical spell more powerful than the other, just because the effect line says ray instead or orb... I also see nothing that would reason me not to assume them being the same when their mechanics are the same. If anything, ray of fire vs orb of fire might be easier to block, since I found quite a debate about whether ray deflection stops orbs... Again, we have basically run every ranged touch attack spells as rays, and have not found anything weird about that for about 20 years... Might also be why I'm reluctant to change my position on it, but when two things are similar to the point of being identical, then I dislike having one word, that for all intents and purpose could be another be the judge of whether I can do something. Its basically saynig you cant do this because of the name... I could understand if there were a real mechanical difference, but I haven't been able to find it...

Btw, what happens if you as a planner sorcerer cast an orb spell made partially from [force], against someone who is affected by mage armor, shield or some other force effect?

Edit: I have accepted that RAW you can’t split ray an orb, however silly it seems... it’s still quite effective tbh... it’s fine, it gives me some feat slots to do something else with!

[Anthrowhale]

Question, why would you arcane thesis arcane fusion? Aren't the spells you pick with arcane fusion the ones you need to arcane thesis? Like my orb of fire? Is it not the orb that I need to modify with metamagic? And not the arcane fusion? This part confuses me...
Most metamagic does indeed not apply to Arcane Fusion, so you would need to apply it to a spell directly this matters quite bit for metamagic-based rider effects (Wounding, Fell <x>, etc..). However, if the goal is just "more damage" Twin Spell (which does apply to Arcane Fusion) is quite effective since the damage of an L1 spell plus the damage of an L4 spell is already well above the curve for an L5 spell and Twin Arcane Fusion doubles that. Arcane Fusion is also very handy because (a) you can use the L1 spell for True Strike or True Casting to penetrate particularly tough opponents (b) in choosing from a menu of L4- spells, you get a much wider variety of possible effects than any other spell. Maybe for example, Wings of Flurry is the key to an encounter? Or Shivering Touch? Or maybe you want to tag with Power Word: Pain as they run away?



I too researched ranged touch attacks spells such as orbs and rays, and I can't find any mechanically difference.

There is no mechanical difference in their resolution, but creating an L4 ray orb (at least) doubles damage compared to other rays at high levels (by making it SR:No instead of SR:Yes) and halves the metamagic requirements to double that again (Split Ray is +2 while Twin Spell is +4). Based on this, I believe it deserves to be at least one level higher and even two seems reasonable. That's a killer spell.

I'm unfamiliar with any debate about Ray Deflection stopping orbs. It seems like a clear "yes", because it unequivacolly blocks ranged touch attacks.

As far as mechanical distinctions, eligibility for Split Ray is a big one.


Btw, what happens if you as a planner sorcerer cast an orb spell made partially from [force], against someone who is affected by mage armor, shield or some other force effect?

These spells affect the AC for incorporeal touch purposes but not ranged touch purposes, so the answer seems to be "nothing".

[hamishspence]

The PHB has "Weapon Focus (ray)" whereas Complete Arcane has Weapon Focus (ranged touch spell). If you took the former, then you'll discover it doesn't work with orbs, whereas the latter works with both orbs and rays.

[Melcar]

Most metamagic does indeed not apply to Arcane Fusion, so you would need to apply it to a spell directly this matters quite bit for metamagic-based rider effects (Wounding, Fell <x>, etc..). However, if the goal is just "more damage" Twin Spell (which does apply to Arcane Fusion) is quite effective since the damage of an L1 spell plus the damage of an L4 spell is already well above the curve for an L5 spell and Twin Arcane Fusion doubles that. Arcane Fusion is also very handy because (a) you can use the L1 spell for True Strike or True Casting to penetrate particularly tough opponents (b) in choosing from a menu of L4- spells, you get a much wider variety of possible effects than any other spell. Maybe for example, Wings of Flurry is the key to an encounter? Or Shivering Touch? Or maybe you want to tag with Power Word: Pain as they run away?


There is no mechanical difference in their resolution, but creating an L4 ray orb (at least) doubles damage compared to other rays at high levels (by making it SR:No instead of SR:Yes) and halves the metamagic requirements to double that again (Split Ray is +2 while Twin Spell is +4). Based on this, I believe it deserves to be at least one level higher and even two seems reasonable. That's a killer spell.

I'm unfamiliar with any debate about Ray Deflection stopping orbs. It seems like a clear "yes", because it unequivacolly blocks ranged touch attacks.

As far as mechanical distinctions, eligibility for Split Ray is a big one.

These spells affect the AC for incorporeal touch purposes but not ranged touch purposes, so the answer seems to be "nothing".

Thanks...

Would it be possible to cast a split ray, twinned scorching ray, through a twinned arcane fusion? Thus, getting 8 applications?

[Vaern]

I too researched ranged touch attacks spells such as orbs and rays, and I can't find any mechanically difference.
The difference is mostly fluff. A ray spell is literally just a beam of energy that you're zapping the target with, while orb spells are objects being thrown. It's about the same as trying to compare bows vs. slings. They're both ranged projectile weapons, they both use your same ranged attack bonus to make the same kind of attack roll against the same armor class, they both use ammo that you have to draw and reload in the same way... mechanically, they function in basically the same way. Manyshot can only be used with bows, but not slings or other projectile weapons. Why? That's just the way it was written, and that's just the way it is.

You could make a comparable custom spell that is a ray, but it would likely end up being evocation - a school of magic literally defined by manipulation of energy, which all ray spells I'm aware of that deal energy damage fall into - and would thus be subject to spell resistance since it's no longer a conjuration. If I'm being honest, though, I've never thought conjuration was appropriate for any of the orb spells anyway. They all reek of evocation.


Would it be possible to cast a split ray, twinned scorching ray, through a twinned arcane fusion? Thus, getting 8 applications?
Looks like that's something that you could reasonably pull off, but you may want to look at other ray spells. Scorching ray already affects multiple targets at higher levels, and split ray only allows it to affect one additional target, so split ray doesn't fully double the spell's effect in this case.
Without split ray, scorching ray shoots 3 beams with a max-level (CL 11), twincast for 6, twinned again through arcane fusion for 12.
With split ray you're shooting 4, twinned for 8, twinned again for 16.
That extra 33% is a nice increase, but unless you're spreading those rays amongst a very large number of targets or have an extra rider effect on each ray you might be better of empowering for +50% instead of splitting.
You might also be better off just casting something like a twinned split ray of stupidity through a twinned arcane fusion, which will deal a total of 8d4+8 (average 28) intelligence damage across 8 beams. This should immediately drop just about anything it affects. However, it is mind-affecting and thus susceptible to a fairly common immunity, and low-level rays that deal ability damage rather than bestowing a penalty are hard to find...

[Anthrowhale]

Thanks...

Would it be possible to cast a split ray, twinned scorching ray, through a twinned arcane fusion? Thus, getting 8 applications?

Yes-ish. There are some caveats.

You need to make the metamagic spell inside the arcane fusion be standard action rather than full round action. This could be done with the Rapid Metamagic feat (available at ECL 9), or via Arcane Spellsurge (available at ECL 14).
You need to reduce the slot cost of a split ray twinned scorching ray so that it fits. Arcane Thesis [Scorching Ray] implies you are still at spell slot 6, so you need two +0 metamagics. Easy[Twin] pulls double duty here as a +0 metamagic feat which also reduces the cost of Twin Spell.
Scorching Ray tends to have issues at higher levels because it's SR:Yes and fire resistance is common at higher levels. The fire resistance applies to _each_ ray, so even fire resistance 5 has a dramatic effect on total damage.
Split Ray isn't that impressive on Scorching Ray, because it adds one ray (so you have 4) rather than doubling the number of rays. So, in this combo, you would get 16 rays total, not 24. Force Hammer is plausibly a better target since it does nonlethal damage (which is rarely resisted), has a daze rider, and split ray doubles the damage. Altogether, the maximum damage is slightly less, but more reliable. Of course, this also explicitly doesn't work on nonliving creatures/objects, so you'll want a backup.


Incidentally, "Lucent Lance" is an L5 ray spell which is something like an orb-as-a-ray in terms of damage and a rider effect, although it keeps the SR:Yes.

[Melcar]

The difference is mostly fluff. A ray spell is literally just a beam of energy that you're zapping the target with, while orb spells are objects being thrown. It's about the same as trying to compare bows vs. slings. They're both ranged projectile weapons, they both use your same ranged attack bonus to make the same kind of attack roll against the same armor class, they both use ammo that you have to draw and reload in the same way... mechanically, they function in basically the same way. Manyshot can only be used with bows, but not slings or other projectile weapons. Why? That's just the way it was written, and that's just the way it is.

You could make a comparable custom spell that is a ray, but it would likely end up being evocation - a school of magic literally defined by manipulation of energy, which all ray spells I'm aware of that deal energy damage fall into - and would thus be subject to spell resistance since it's no longer a conjuration. If I'm being honest, though, I've never thought conjuration was appropriate for any of the orb spells anyway. They all reek of evocation.

Indeed... I have come to terms with it, accepted it. I think my outburst was a mix of me being annoyed that my build didn't work and annoyed that I/we had made that mistake for so long...

Also yes, I would be inclined to remove the orb spells from conjuration in my game... In 3.0 there were indeed evocation where they belong...



Looks like that's something that you could reasonably pull off, but you may want to look at other ray spells. Scorching ray already affects multiple targets at higher levels, and split ray only allows it to affect one additional target, so split ray doesn't fully double the spell's effect in this case.
Without split ray, scorching ray shoots 3 beams with a max-level (CL 11), twincast for 6, twinned again through arcane fusion for 12.
With split ray you're shooting 4, twinned for 8, twinned again for 16.
That extra 33% is a nice increase, but unless you're spreading those rays amongst a very large number of targets or have an extra rider effect on each ray you might be better of empowering for +50% instead of splitting.
You might also be better off just casting something like a twinned split ray of stupidity through a twinned arcane fusion, which will deal a total of 8d4+8 (average 28) intelligence damage across 8 beams. This should immediately drop just about anything it affects. However, it is mind-affecting and thus susceptible to a fairly common immunity, and low-level rays that deal ability damage rather than bestowing a penalty are hard to find...

It was purely as thought experiment... indeed it would seem there are better ray spells out there! I'm actually considering a re-fluffing of her into a more dark gloomy mage which uses fell drain as primary metamagic. On that note, can I apply Fell Drain to Enervation?



Yes-ish. There are some caveats.

You need to make the metamagic spell inside the arcane fusion be standard action rather than full round action. This could be done with the Rapid Metamagic feat (available at ECL 9), or via Arcane Spellsurge (available at ECL 14).
You need to reduce the slot cost of a split ray twinned scorching ray so that it fits. Arcane Thesis [Scorching Ray] implies you are still at spell slot 6, so you need two +0 metamagics. Easy[Twin] pulls double duty here as a +0 metamagic feat which also reduces the cost of Twin Spell.
Scorching Ray tends to have issues at higher levels because it's SR:Yes and fire resistance is common at higher levels. The fire resistance applies to _each_ ray, so even fire resistance 5 has a dramatic effect on total damage.
Split Ray isn't that impressive on Scorching Ray, because it adds one ray (so you have 4) rather than doubling the number of rays. So, in this combo, you would get 16 rays total, not 24. Force Hammer is plausibly a better target since it does nonlethal damage (which is rarely resisted), has a daze rider, and split ray doubles the damage. Altogether, the maximum damage is slightly less, but more reliable. Of course, this also explicitly doesn't work on nonliving creatures/objects, so you'll want a backup.


Incidentally, "Lucent Lance" is an L5 ray spell which is something like an orb-as-a-ray in terms of damage and a rider effect, although it keeps the SR:Yes.

Cool... Thanks. As mentions above, the specific of scorching ray was just an example. I would be looking much closer, were I to try and achieve such a trick.


Back to my fire sorceress... I have the following metamagic feats: Radiant, Searing, Fiery, Blistering... I, due to some work around, have one feat left... are there any other useful feats I might apply to fire spells? I'm not looking for more damage. Actually I went with empower first, but I have decided to go with a little less dam... My dm thought it would be better that way...

[Anthrowhale]

On that note, can I apply Fell Drain to Enervation?

No, it doesn't do damage which Fell Drain requires.



...are there any other useful feats I might apply to fire spells? I'm not looking for more damage. Actually I went with empower first, but I have decided to go with a little less dam...
Energy Substitution[Fire] would allow you to access many odd effects as fire spells. For instance:

Waves of ColdFire removes immunity to fire and ESub[Fire] Creaking Cacaphony induces vulnerability to fire.
Mantle of Icy ColdFire grants the fire subtype and Esub[Fire] Algid Enhancement provides substantial bonuses to those with the fire subtype.
AcidFire Sheath provides +1 fire damage/die.
LightningFire Leap provides a short range teleport.

[Melcar]

No, it doesn't do damage which Fell Drain requires.

How about if I also apply black lore of moil?



Energy Substitution[Fire] would allow you to access many odd effects as fire spells. For instance:

Waves of ColdFire removes immunity to fire and ESub[Fire] Creaking Cacaphony induces vulnerability to fire.
Mantle of Icy ColdFire grants the fire subtype and Esub[Fire] Algid Enhancement provides substantial bonuses to those with the fire subtype.
AcidFire Sheath provides +1 fire damage/die.
LightningFire Leap provides a short range teleport.


These are cool... thanks!

Would there then be a better candicate for Arcane Thesis than Orb of Fire then? Not necciserilly in terms of more damage than 1d6/lvl, but which maybe added something extra?

[DeAnno]

Yes-ish. There are some caveats.

You need to reduce the slot cost of a split ray twinned scorching ray so that it fits. Arcane Thesis [Scorching Ray] implies you are still at spell slot 6, so you need two +0 metamagics. Easy[Twin] pulls double duty here as a +0 metamagic feat which also reduces the cost of Twin Spell.



I find this claim extremely sketchy, and doubt that any sane DM would allow the interaction of the Easy Metamagic Feat somehow counting as a further +0 even if you can somehow convolute the already badly worded RAW of Arcane Thesis to allow it.

The reason I don't really like Arcane Thesis is that pushing it with +0s at all produces unphysical, blatantly wrong-looking effects which generally move the Mailman from a PO build you can use at any heavy duty table to a TO build which drowns itself in rules debates. This seems like almost the next level spin of the usual reading.

[Melcar]

I find this claim extremely sketchy, and doubt that any sane DM would allow the interaction of the Easy Metamagic Feat somehow counting as a further +0 even if you can somehow convolute the already badly worded RAW of Arcane Thesis to allow it.

The reason I don't really like Arcane Thesis is that pushing it with +0s at all produces unphysical, blatantly wrong-looking effects which generally move the Mailman from a PO build you can use at any heavy duty table to a TO build which drowns itself in rules debates. This seems like almost the next level spin of the usual reading.

I was not going to actually do it... I personally thought of it as a thought experiment. I just wanted to know whether it was RAW-legal... But think of it man, a twinned arcane fusion containing a twinned, splitray something... not a bad way to deal with enemies!

[Anthrowhale]

How about if I also apply black lore of moil?
It would work then.



Would there then be a better candicate for Arcane Thesis than Orb of Fire then?
Orb of fire is good because few things are immune to daze, it has high damage, it's SR:No, and it fits into an Arcane Fusion. It's bad because so many things are resistant/immune to fire, although the planar sorcerer substitution level mitigates this drawback. There is also a potential drawback from rare opponents with Mettle. The only creatures naturally immune to a force-charged orb of fire are swarms, so you'll want to have to have some area of effect damage as well.

Hellfire is a potential alternate choice. It has no rider and does lower damage but with sculpt spell it could apply to every opponent in every combat and nothing resists hellfire so against the fire immune it actually ends up doing similar damage. Of course, if you want to deal with AMF creatures an orb is necessary, so 'eh'.


I find this claim extremely sketchy, and doubt that any sane DM would allow the interaction of the Easy Metamagic Feat somehow counting as a further +0 even if you can somehow convolute the already badly worded RAW of Arcane Thesis to allow it.
In terms of this being to powerful, I agree. Easy Metamagic should not be a metamagic feat so that it is more comparable to Practical Metamagic (which is not). Even then it still dominates Practical Metamagic because the prerequisites are strictly lower and the applicability is strictly higher.

In terms of the RAW, I don't see how else to interpret it other than as +0 metamagic since it is clearly marked as a metamagic feat.

Another example of how to go overpowered here is via Tome Dragon (Dragon #343) using either Shapechange or Polymorph+Assume Supernatural Ability.


The reason I don't really like Arcane Thesis is that pushing it with +0s at all produces unphysical, blatantly wrong-looking effects which generally move the Mailman from a PO build you can use at any heavy duty table to a TO build which drowns itself in rules debates. This seems like almost the next level spin of the usual reading.
One definition of PO that I've seen (from Piggy?) is dealing half the hp damage of a CR-appropriate foe in a single round. This leads to the question: is there a single build able to deal half the average hit points (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J7KongPAMxJCKuSlDFIyRKj7YPWsTP2fJUh_tuS16Qs/edit#gid=1854430337) of a CR-appropriate foe from levels 1-20 without Arcane Thesis on the "standard" 4 encounters/day?

[Lapak]

For those of us not familiar, what is the mailman build?
I don't know that anyone has answered this explicitly, so: the Mailman is a blaster-caster build that does one thing and one thing only: reliably delivers large amounts of damage. As you can infer from the thread, this involves using ranged-touch-attack spells that are SR: No so that the two biggest mitigations against spell damage (saving throws and SR) don't apply, then stacking ridiculous amounts of metamagic on them so you can punch above your weight. It's one of those optimization-builds that gets bounced around the forum on a semiregular basis, but it does have the distinct advantage of being tunable to the rules of the table (hence the discussion about how silly the DM will allow metamagic reducers to get) and since it's a pure damage build rather than a minionmancer who takes ten turns for every other player's one or a no-save-just-lose CC build it tends to be seen as less of a god-wizard and more of a plays-well-with-others to a degree.

It's the Shock-Trooper Ubercharger of the arcane set, basically.

[DeAnno]

One definition of PO that I've seen (from Piggy?) is dealing half the hp damage of a CR-appropriate foe in a single round. This leads to the question: is there a single build able to deal half the average hit points (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J7KongPAMxJCKuSlDFIyRKj7YPWsTP2fJUh_tuS16Qs/edit#gid=1854430337) of a CR-appropriate foe from levels 1-20 without Arcane Thesis on the "standard" 4 encounters/day?

Obviously at the lowest levels you really can't, but it's not grim for so long because Scorching Ray and Practical Empower together are reasonably efficient from level 7 on. At that point you're dealing 12d6 = 42 with third level spells as ranged touch damage, and if fire and SR are bad they aren't as bad at level 7. A CR 7 averages 87 hp on that chart so by then you're practically caught up for as many rounds per day as you have third level slots (probably five.)

I would say most builds that are trying to look reasonable and be vaguely ready to go at level 6-7 without using Thesis are instead taking this track of Empower+Practical Empower (which also avoids Dragon Magazine) and using a variety of attack spells with it. Level 7 is also when lesser orbs are starting to get more efficient at 4d8 raw, and 6d8=27 for a 2nd slot so that's something, if not a completely adequate something. But you have to remember that that 27 is probably Acid Ranged Touch SR No damage so it's probably better than guy who's doing half again as much with his sword through normal AC.

[Anthrowhale]

Obviously at the lowest levels you really can't, but it's not grim for so long because Scorching Ray and Practical Empower together are reasonably efficient from level 7 on. At that point you're dealing 12d6 = 42 with third level spells as ranged touch damage, and if fire and SR are bad they aren't as bad at level 7. A CR 7 averages 87 hp on that chart so by then you're practically caught up for as many rounds per day as you have third level slots (probably five.)

I would say most builds that are trying to look reasonable and be vaguely ready to go at level 6-7 without using Thesis are instead taking this track of Empower+Practical Empower (which also avoids Dragon Magazine) and using a variety of attack spells with it. Level 7 is also when lesser orbs are starting to get more efficient at 4d8 raw, and 6d8=27 for a 2nd slot so that's something, if not a completely adequate something. But you have to remember that that 27 is probably Acid Ranged Touch SR No damage so it's probably better than guy who's doing half again as much with his sword through normal AC.

I played around with some possibilities a little bit. It looks like opening with the below works well? This leans on the planar sorcerer ACF at level 5 for half force damage and early qualifies for Incantratrix through Sanctum Spell which pulls double duty as a +0 metamagic to manipulate casting time with once arcane spellsurge comes online. Once you hit level 10 or so, the use of celerity allows you to exceed the benchmark regularly (quite possibly by to much). The weakest level is 4 where a Fiery Lesser Orb of Fire does only 3d8+3 fire damage, about half the benchmark.

Silverbrow Human: Bloodline of Fire
1: Fiery Spell
3: Sanctum Spell
Otyugh Hole Iron Will
I1: Empower Spell
6: Practical metamagic[Empower Spell]
I4: Ocular Spell
9: Quick recovery

[RNightstalker]

I don't know that anyone has answered this explicitly, so: the Mailman is a blaster-caster build that does one thing and one thing only: reliably delivers large amounts of damage. As you can infer from the thread, this involves using ranged-touch-attack spells that are SR: No so that the two biggest mitigations against spell damage (saving throws and SR) don't apply, then stacking ridiculous amounts of metamagic on them so you can punch above your weight. It's one of those optimization-builds that gets bounced around the forum on a semiregular basis, but it does have the distinct advantage of being tunable to the rules of the table (hence the discussion about how silly the DM will allow metamagic reducers to get) and since it's a pure damage build rather than a minionmancer who takes ten turns for every other player's one or a no-save-just-lose CC build it tends to be seen as less of a god-wizard and more of a plays-well-with-others to a degree.

It's the Shock-Trooper Ubercharger of the arcane set, basically.

Thanks, I appreciate that.