Applying templates to constructs

[schreier]

In Dragon 327, it talks about augmenting constructs with things like extra arms or rudimentary intelligence with specific costs associates with the construction.

If you want to apply templates to constructs, is there any guidance on construction/cost/requirements?

For example - the Elder Eidolon template has specific templates that it can apply to, including true dragons, but not outsiders.
If you apply Half-Dragon to an outsider (like a marilith), it is suddenly an acceptable target.

The Elder Eidolon has a price structure - the body has a specific cost based on size, then a per hit-die cost.

So a half-dragon template doesn't impact the price per RAW. So it would just be the cost of a Large (5,000gp for the body) + (16 HD x 6000gp) = 5000 + 96000 = 101,000gp

To add rudimentary intelligence would just add 8,000gp, so 109,000gp

Correct? You could require in game getting a certain amount of dragons' blood to infuse the igneous rock, but that would be outside the RAW.

If you added another template (like Paragon Creature even), it wouldn't impact the HD, so RAW would not impact the price right? Seems abusive - you could require an epic caster, since it is an epic template, but that isn't in the RAW (obviously RAW isn't perfect and would not include every possibility) - could require Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, similar to a Mithril/Adamantine golem.

[unseenmage]

Hit the Construct with the Greater Humanoid Essence spell first andnit will be a humanoid instead of a Constuct for the duration.
Now it is viable for all sorts of other templates.


Template stacking is generally considered overpowered due to the CR increases not accounting for multiple template applications.
Player controlled templates even more so.

Unless a template has an explicit proviso for player access and pricing then it is generally going to be off limits for player use. Half-dragon is one of these off limits templates.

Aquired templates are templates that can be put on an existing creature or that use an existing creative as the base form.
Inherited templates are templates that a creature is born into.
Very rarely will a player have an inherited template be applicable via non-fiat means.


That said, at our table we use CR * CR *500 as a base price for all Constructs. Half that for the creation cost. One tenth that for the price of constructing the body.
We also allow any Construct to be built if the required materials, workplace, and magics are available.
Other than that it defaults to the crafting magicnitem rules.

This is an extrapolation of guidelines found in Pathfinder's Building and Modifying Constructs (http://legacy.aonprd.com/ultimatemagic/magic/buildingAndModifyingConstructs.html) section of the PRD.

Epic Constructs still require that one be epic, mythic requires mythic, robots require a technology lab, etc.
Other limitations are added as needed from game to game.

I like the Price by CR method because it replaces the completely random pricing of most Constructs, allows me to build stuff that didn't get official pricing, and it lwts one template stack while adding an actual cost in GP and time spent. I highly recommend it as a general house rule.

[schreier]

CR makes sense instead of HD, considering that it takes into account more factors.

I did build in the elder eidolon lore through finding the astral fortress N'gati in Dragon Magazine 305, pg 29, which was basically a floating head of a construct from a long-lost civilization (kind of like Knowhere from Marvel comics, although a strange, alien head that makes people uncomfortable with tentacles and things) -- seemed like a perfect fit

[Eldonauran]

There is a 'type' Pyramid explained in Savage Species that gives an order or tier to creature types when it comes to stacking Templates and what can/cannot (or should not) be applied certain orders. Page 142-143

From bottom to top:
Animals, Humanoids and Vermin
Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoid
Fey, Giant
Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)
Aberration
Elemental, Ooze, Plant
Construct, Outsider, Undead

You can climb the pyramid (overwrite the lower tier) and to some degree move back and forth within the same tier (except at the very top). You cannot move down the tier unless something very specific says so (like Incarnate template for construct). Once you become a Construct or Undead, you stay one. Once you become an Outsider, you stay one.

So, can you apply the half-dragon template to an Outsider? Not normally, but if you manage to, it is still an Outsider.

[hamishspence]

So, can you apply the half-dragon template to an Outsider? Not normally, but if you manage to, it is still an Outsider.Type pyramid only determines the final type of the creature, not "what types can be applied", generally speaking,

p142: "You can apply the half-dragon template to an earth elemental, for instance, and it remains an elemental. The pyramid is about creature types, and does not dictate the order in which you must apply templates".

So there is nothing preventing you from applying the Half-Dragon template, for example, to an Outsider.

Also, this line

"Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider and stays one"

was obsoleted with the introduction of the Extraplanar subtype.

Plus it's not clear if the type pyramid even applies to 3.5, since Savage Species was late 3.0.

A case could be made that since the MM says half-dragons gain the dragon type - and the MM is the primary source, then this overrides Savage Species.

So a half-dragon Shambling Mound is a dragon, not a plant.

A half-dragon Solar is a dragon, not an outsider.

And so forth.

[schreier]

To me, it does feel like the hierarchy has been replaced, and when there is specific language in the Monster Manual, a subsequent source of the "current" (3.5) version I would have it supersede the prior reference. I think both positions are defensible and will come down to the DM.

If allowable, then figuring out price seems to be also DM fiat. I think pricing at CR makes sense, since it involves greater complexity in building and design.

Semi-unrelated - I assume that constructs can you magic items to improve attributes? I wonder if you could make a magic "tatoo" or 'mark" (like a warforged component) that grants a bonus to an attribute.

[unseenmage]

To me, it does feel like the hierarchy has been replaced, and when there is specific language in the Monster Manual, a subsequent source of the "current" (3.5) version I would have it supersede the prior reference. I think both positions are defensible and will come down to the DM.

If allowable, then figuring out price seems to be also DM fiat. I think pricing at CR makes sense, since it involves greater complexity in building and design.

Semi-unrelated - I assume that constructs can you magic items to improve attributes? I wonder if you could make a magic "tatoo" or 'mark" (like a warforged component) that grants a bonus to an attribute.

Definitely go check out PF's Building and Modifying Constructs info I linked above, its got that covered.

Also built in weapons and armors.

[schreier]

Thank you!

Trying to figure out the rudimentary intelligence feature in combination with templates ...

Lets say you allow the half-dragon to change an outsider to a dragon

So you have a Half-Dragon Marilith that is made into a construct with the Elder Eidolon template and given rudimentary intelligence ...

Marilith has:
Skills: Bluff +26, Concentration +28, Diplomacy +30, Disguise +7 (+9 acting), Hide +19, Intimidate +28, Listen +31, Move Silently +23, Search 23, Sense Motive +23, Spellcraft +23 (+25 scrolls), Spot +31, Survival +4 (+6 following tracks), Use Magic Device +26 (+28 scrolls)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (longsword)

Elder Eidolon says:
An eidolon loses all skill points and feats, except feats that improve its attacks, such as Improved Natural Attack, Multiattack, or Weapon Finesse.

Rudimentary Intelligence says:
the construct gains feats and skill points befitting an intelligent construct of its Hit Dice (see page 301 of the Monster Manual for information on how to determine and distribute monstrous feats and skills)

Monster Manual pg 301 says:
Assign whatever skills you think the creature ought to have. The number of skill points a creature has depends on its type, Hit Dice, and Intelligence; see Table 5–4. Assume that any skill you choose for the creature is a class skill, and each rank costs 1 skill point. The maximum rank for any skill is the creature’s Hit Dice + 3. A creature with less than 1 Hit Die is treated as having 1 Hit Die for the purpose of determining skill points and maximum skill rank.

All monsters have a number of feats equal to 1 + (1 per 3 HD).

So ... the eidolon will have skill points in this case of (16+3) x (2+Int bonus) for the Marilith ... assume a CL of 20 in this case, so a 10 Int (no bonus) = 38 skill points

Do you have the same class skills are the marilith? Is every skill that makes sense a class skill? (Listen, Seach, Spot ...)?
Would have 6 feats from HD ... I would think it would get martial weapon (longsword) for free