Whispers of the Grave is underrated

[Evaar]

You might argue that Speak With Dead is a situational spell, but let me point out some things about it that you might not intuitively expect and why this invocation is more than the sum of its parts.

First, there's no time limit on the corpse. It doesn't have to have died within any set amount of time. Also, it doesn't have to be the whole corpse - you only need a mouth. You can cast it on a skeleton that has its jawbone - the campaign book for Dungeon of the Mad Mage specifically calls out that players can gain information from casting Speak With Dead on a skull.

Second, it doesn't have to be a humanoid corpse. The spell only says it can't be undead. Now, perhaps that means it can't CURRENTLY be undead, but if you kill that creature then it becomes a corpse and a valid target. Or maybe it means it can't even have been undead. Personally, I interpret it as the first but your DM may decide otherwise. Regardless, you can use this on a beholder, dragon, devil, whatever, as long as you have at least a skull left over.

Third, you aren't the only thing out there making corpses. The spell allows you to instantly solve murders, get warnings about what you're about to go up against, find treasures you might have missed, etc. Friendly/neutral corpses are just as valuable a source of information as enemy corpses. How many times have you found a dead adventurer? A sacrifice victim? A massacred merchant caravan? Who hired them? Who killed them? What were they trying to accomplish? Did they hide any valuables they want you to gather? Do they have unfinished business you can help with?

Fourth, you're a Warlock, you have the Charisma to convince someone to share information if you're smart about it. Did you just kill a whole group of enemy soldiers and you want information about where their camp is? Great news, you just came into possession of a bunch of their uniforms. Dress up, use Deception, tell the lieutenant you're reinforcements that got separated and now you need to report what happened, so where can we find his superior officer? Hell, if you want, get proficiency with a Disguise Kit and look like their buddy who died a turn later - per the spell, they don't know what happened after they died.

Fifth, the spell is no longer very situational when you can cast it at will. You're a D&D character. You always need information, and you will spend a lot of time around corpses. You are limited to 5 questions per corpse. There's nothing stopping you from casting it on every single corpse if you want to. It takes no Concentration. It's one action, and it's not a ritual. Anyone else would have to spend a 3rd level slot to do this, so it's just not practical. You? You're Captain America: you can do this all day.

Sixth, as was pointed out to me by LudicSavant, the fact that you only need a skull with a mouth (i.e. with a jawbone) means that the part of the corpse you care about is portable. If you want, you can carry around the skull of your deceased mentor and check in with her every 10 days to see what advice she'd give you about what's going on. Or if you find the mummified corpse of the ancient Wizard-King in a sarcophagus, you can take the head and use it as a subject matter expert on historical and arcane topics. If you can learn head-shrinking techniques, even better. 5 questions per 10 days. Collect 'em all!

I checked some of the published Warlock guides and they rate this invocation as situational, I think largely because the spell itself is situational for most casters. But with the way this invocation works, you can make this a cornerstone of your character's contribution to the social and exploration pillars of the game. The ability to ask 5 consequence-free questions of any corpse on a Charisma-based character is huge if you actually make use of it. Just talk it over with the party first, decide what info you're trying to get, and have the Cleric listen in to figure out if Skelly is being deceptive.

[Segev]

It is one you have to look for ways to use, but you're right that a lot of spells become more interesting when you can use them at will, because you're never worried about wasting it. Why NOT chat with every corpse you can find?

If your DM agrees that you can use this on corpses that aren't human(oid) and may not even have had a language, then you could do interesting things by setting up taxidermy birds and the like as sentinels you can later query. Or as a macabre speak with animals from whom you just want information by killing them first.

This still is one you really need to work to make useful enough to justify an invocation slot, though.

[Evaar]

If your DM agrees that you can use this on corpses that aren't human(oid) and may not even have had a language, then you could do interesting things by setting up taxidermy birds and the like as sentinels you can later query. Or as a macabre speak with animals from whom you just want information by killing them first.

This probably wouldn’t work. They only know languages they knew in life and don’t know any information from after their death. A DM might let you combine Speak With Animals to query a dead animal, but definitely no taxidermy sentries.

Without that, I have found it absolutely invaluable to have. On par with having a dedicated, skilled scout. Rather than being situational, I submit it should be seen as a default pick if you don’t have something else specific in mind for a given invocation choice. Like Devil’s Sight, it’s just going to be good to have and is very likely to come up.

[Jerrykhor]

Yeah i agree its a pretty good Invocation. Its not as situational as say, Beast Speech. Adventurers come across corpses fairly common. Not having to spend a spellslot also means you don't mind asking non-serious questions that are a bit silly but more suitable to your character, like to spite your enemies for example.

[Evaar]

Yeah i agree its a pretty good Invocation. Its not as situational as say, Beast Speech. Adventurers come across corpses fairly common. Not having to spend a spellslot also means you don't mind asking non-serious questions that are a bit silly but more suitable to your character, like to spite your enemies for example.

Absolutely. Or just going fishing to see what you can get. If you're spending a 3rd level slot, you don't use it unless you know you're getting something specific. If it's free? Hell, might as well check.

[MaxWilson]

Absolutely. Or just going fishing to see what you can get. If you're spending a 3rd level slot, you don't use it unless you know you're getting something specific. If it's free?.... might as well check.

More important than the spell slot is the table time. Either the DM will make the table time worth it or not.

There's still value in the invocation of course to save slots if the DM minimizes table time spent and just says "none of the dead tell you anything relevant to your concerns", but some DMs are better than others at pacing, i.e. cutting out wasted time between significant decisions. (I'm still working on pacing too.)

[Evaar]

More important than the spell slot is the table time. Either the DM will make the table time worth it or not.

There's still value in the invocation of course to save slots if the DM minimizes table time spent and just says "none of the dead tell you anything relevant to your concerns", but some DMs are better than others at pacing, i.e. cutting out wasted time between significant decisions. (I'm still working on pacing too.)

Naturally, you have to feel that out so you aren't filibustering your own adventure.

[Bloodcloud]

It is one you have to look for ways to use, but you're right that a lot of spells become more interesting when you can use them at will, because you're never worried about wasting it. Why NOT chat with every corpse you can find?

If your DM agrees that you can use this on corpses that aren't human(oid) and may not even have had a language, then you could do interesting things by setting up taxidermy birds and the like as sentinels you can later query. Or as a macabre speak with animals from whom you just want information by killing them first.

This still is one you really need to work to make useful enough to justify an invocation slot, though.

Ok, this is not RAW, but if a warlock took the speak with animal invocation and whisper of the grave, I would totaly let him speak with dead animals and have his taxidermy sentries. Because for Pelor's sake, this is a cool creepy warlock combo if I've eer seen one.

[MaxWilson]

Ok, this is not RAW, but if a warlock took the speak with animal invocation and whisper of the grave, I would totaly let him speak with dead animals and have his taxidermy sentries. Because for Pelor's sake, this is a cool creepy warlock combo if I've eer seen one.

The problem isn't the "animals" part - - you can't use corpse sentries either because the problem is that the dead don't learn. They can't tell you about anything that happened after they died so they're useless as sentries.

IMO if you want that combo I'd give you a DIFFERENT invocation and call it "Corpse Sentries" but that's not what Speak With Dead does.

[JackPhoenix]

Ok, this is not RAW, but if a warlock took the speak with animal invocation and whisper of the grave, I would totaly let him speak with dead animals and have his taxidermy sentries. Because for Pelor's sake, this is a cool creepy warlock combo if I've eer seen one.

Problem with taxidermy sentries isn't speaking to the animal. It's the taxidermy part: sentry that can't sense or learn anything is pretty useless.

[Segev]

Accepting as given that my silly idea doesn't work, I am interested in hearing more ways to (ab)use at-will speak with dead.

[Bloodcloud]

Problem with taxidermy sentries isn't speaking to the animal. It's the taxidermy part: sentry that can't sense or learn anything is pretty useless.

Again, fully aware. RAW and RAI it doesn't work. But goddamn if it isn't a cool use for two below par invocations. I just really like the idea.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I am interested in hearing more ways to (ab)use at-will speak with dead.
Since using Speak with Dead on a corpse renders the body immune to the spell for 10 days, the S.W.D. Spell can also be used with the intent to cover up, (or make investigation more difficult), instead of only using the spell to uncover information.

This won't prevent other divination spells from revealing information, but it does stymie Speak with Dead. A murderer with arcane knowledge, might use this to their benefit.

As a DM, I've had a particular brutal Jack da Ripper-Style Vampire, purposefully place mismatched severed heads with a bodies to throw out false trails. It was gruesome, and macabre, but was an effective strategy..for shock value at the very least.

[WaroftheCrans]

It can also play into a beer and pretzels type of macabre: a warlock (perhaps a necromancer) who collects and names heads and just asks their advice and opinions on everything. Uses a marker to count down the number of days til a skull com be used again.

"Jerry, should I get the red hilt or the blue one?"

"Steve should we go to the north cemetery or the south one for more bodies"

"Larry, what do you think the party should do now?"

Gives a new meaning to the term talking heads. Who says necromancers gave to be grim and dark and can't be comedic implements.

[Ogun]

I love this idea!
Tangentially, can you reduce a zombie or skeleton to just a head?
Wire bells to the jaws and put them on stakes ...

[xyianth]

Based on my experience with this invocation (as both a player and a dm in separate games) the real problem with this invocation is that the DM grows exceptionally tired of having to answer questions as Every. Single. Corpse. It is amazing how fast the creatures of your world simply stop having useful information just to speed things along.

Seriously, talk with your DM before taking this invocation and make sure both of you understand its implications and impact before taking it.

[Segev]

Based on my experience with this invocation (as both a player and a dm in separate games) the real problem with this invocation is that the DM grows exceptionally tired of having to answer questions as Every. Single. Corpse. It is amazing how fast the creatures of your world simply stop having useful information just to speed things along.

Seriously, talk with your DM before taking this invocation and make sure both of you understand its implications and impact before taking it.

Sounds like something the DM could speed up by having you roll a Charisma (Persuasion) or (Deception) check to gather information, treating corpses as viable sources. No need to RP it out if it's no fun; he just tells you what relevant info you can glean.

[LudicSavant]

Sounds like something the DM could speed up by having you roll a Charisma (Persuasion) or (Deception) check to gather information, treating corpses as viable sources. No need to RP it out if it's no fun; he just tells you what relevant info you can glean.

More or less this. Why would the DM assume you need to roleplay out every line of dialogue said in the world?

[xyianth]

More or less this. Why would the DM assume you need to roleplay out every line of dialogue said in the world?

I don't? That is what I meant. After a few dozen rolls, there isn't anymore info to gather. Then it is just slowing down gameplay to keep rolling or asking if there is new info from this new corpse the party made/found. As a DM, it wasn't satisfying to repeat the same answers/results over and over. As a player, it feels like a useful invocation for the first few uses and then feels like it stops working. Neither felt very good. My point was just to make sure both the player and the DM had a good way to handle this invocation. I did not mean to imply that you would have to roleplay out every conversation.

[Segev]

I don't? That is what I meant. After a few dozen rolls, there isn't anymore info to gather. Then it is just slowing down gameplay to keep rolling or asking if there is new info from this new corpse the party made/found. As a DM, it wasn't satisfying to repeat the same answers/results over and over. As a player, it feels like a useful invocation for the first few uses and then feels like it stops working. Neither felt very good. My point was just to make sure both the player and the DM had a good way to handle this invocation. I did not mean to imply that you would have to roleplay out every conversation.

My question is why it feels like it stops working. Sure, after the umpteenth hobgoblin guard corpse in the same keep, you're not getting new information, but why would it still not be useful when you get to the warlord's personal guard, or when you're exploring the town where orcs slaughtered everyone, or you're asking the dead gnoll scouting party about their warband?

[follacchioso]

It is a great invocation, you are right. The idea of carrying the skull of your mentor is also very cool. My archfey warlock, who is an old woman who spends most of the time rambling about her lost children, would probably carry a skull or two all the time.

The only shame is that the level requirement is quite high. By the time you can take it, you are already an experienced adventurer. Your bard companion, on the other hand, can cast the spell at level 5 already, and they are probably best friends with the dead people.

[solidork]

For me, it's got similar qualifications as trying to play an illusionist - your mileage will vary wildly based on who is adjudicating things. To be a fair, it does place a burden on the GM to come up with stuff for literally every character but it was really frustrating for me thatn my GM bent over backwards to make using this useless almost every time.

[Hytheter]

Seriously, talk with your DM before taking this invocation and make sure both of you understand its implications and impact before taking it.

I don't understand. Is there another Invocation for the Speak with DM spell?

[Naanomi]

I don't understand. Is there another Invocation for the Speak with DM spell?
A few of the rituals available to Tome via invocation are pretty close