Shadow Oracle Build Advice

[metalith]

It has been years since I've played in Pathfinder game and needing some assistance, with building a Shadow Oracle. We are starting at level one. We had a general creation session last night but I'm stuck looking at the options and trying to figure out what is best. The campaign premise is we are playing characters of questionable moral character, we are not heroes nor good aligned. More likely to be anti-heroes or villians. Forbidden alignments Any Good and Chaotic Evil.

My main focus I'm looking for is battlefield control and/or debuff, but I am needing to be able to heal since I'm the only divine caster in the group and be the face. So I'm feeling kind of stretched We have a Rogue, Monk, Barbarian and the last player is working on either a Summoner or Hunter, not 100% yet which. Neither the rogue nor summoner want to be the face.

The DM said to use 4D6 Reroll 1s, no drop for stats and was really lucky.

Here is what I have so far

Human Shadow Oracle
True Nuetral

Str 19
Dex 23
Con 22
Int 20
Wis 18
Cha 24+2=26

Curse wise I am liking Deaf, love the Silent feat or Plagued. And been looking at the Alternate Racial Trait Dimdweller in exchange for the human bonus Skill. Ideally would like to remain human. I love the Shadow Mystery thematically, but I can go Dark Taperstry / Lunar if that would be a better fit for what I'm looking for. Since those where the other 2 mysteries I was looking at before taking Shadow. If you have any questions please ask. I would be happy for any advice offered. Particularly if any archetypes would work best with this build.

[Kurald Galain]

Being deaf sounds problematic for a party face.

The cleric list has sufficient debuff and crowd control spells for this to work, especially with your high charisma (meaning high save DC). Also, the shadow mystery can learn a couple of wizard spells for even more crowd control. Generally speaking, go for area effects. Also, wings of darkness and living shadow sound like fun abilities.

So shadow mystery seems to fit best with your wishes.

[metalith]

Understand. I was leaning toward deaf during creation before someone brought up who is going to be the face of the party. The rogue is going for the edgelord route and the summoner put his lowest stat into int does not have any ranks in any of the Cha skills and should he change his mind and be the hunter, he wants to do the I only like animals route. We have two weeks so we have time to refine things.

[Jack_Simth]

Deaf is problematic for a party face, but it's not (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/spectacles-of-lip-reading/) insurmountable (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/speechreaders-sight/).

Something else you're missing: An arcane caster. Looks like you'll need to cover:
1) Face.
2) Divine caster.
3) Arcane caster.

Still... you've got the stats to pull it off. Shadow is a fine mystery, and lets you delve into the Sor/Wiz list, which is going to be necessary for you.

I might suggest going half-elf for Paragon Surge (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge/) (although you can also spend a feat to qualify for the spell - Racial Heritage (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/racial-heritage) will let you qualify as a half-elf if needed). Use it to pick up whatever fix-it spell you need by way of the Expanded Arcana (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana/) feat.

I might suggest the Spirit Guide (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/archetypes/paizo-oracle-archetypes/spirit-guide) archetype. It gives you a library of 16 sets of spells known that you can select from one day to another. If you have a lenient DM, the Lore Spirit (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/spirits/lore/)'s "Arcane Enlightenment" hex can let you pick up a few spells off the Wizard list (a not so lenient DM will rule that the hex simply doesn't function for an Oracle). You do lose a few revelations over your career... but there a feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-revelation-1/) and a ring (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-revelation/) to mitigate that.

So... you've got 9 skill points/level?
Diplomacy
Sense Motive
Spellcraft
Knowledge(Arcana)
Stealth (Cross class without a trait or something; Spirit Guide loses your bonus class skills from Shadow)
Perception (Cross class without a trait or something)
Bluff (Cross class without a trait or something - see stealth note)
Use Magic Device (Cross class without a trait or something)
Disable Device (Cross class without a trait or something)

I'd also recommend picking up Craft Wondrous Item. You're likely to be the only one who can.

[Maat Mons]

Reminds me of a character I played a while back, Bobby Angstmeister. He was meant to be kind of a Rogue replacement. Hide in Plain Sight from the Shadow mystery. Trapfinding from the Seeker archetype. If memory serves, I took the Accursed curse, which didn't let me benefit from Morale bonuses. Bobby was too angsty for Morale.

[metalith]

Thematically, I want him to come off as someone who lived a hard life in a place where cruelty or indifference ran rampant. The Dimdweller trait was also to reflect that the place where he lived was somewhere were direct sunlight was not a common sight. I was thinking maybe a undercity area like living in the sewers or in a area where the Underdark and surface world interacted. I could have seen him develop into a rogue or fighter if he wasn't touched by dark powers. I see him playing off a cordial and formal, however, when he gets crossed or angered, he will use every tool at his disposal to settle the score. Eventually getting to the point in combat being like I call down the powers of darkness to hurt and hamper my enemies... queue demonic laughter. lol

I didn't realize I would need to worry about being an Arcane caster. If our 5th player plays a Summoner wouldn't he occupy that role. I have only played PF once a long time ago, and played a Wizard. No summoner in that group.

I did not realize about those spells and item. Our DM says if I put a skill point into linguistics I can read lips. Which is what I would be doing if I choose deaf.

[Rynjin]

Deaf is probably the single most debilitating Curse an Oracle can choose. -4 Init and 20% spell failure is absolutely brutal. Be prepared for your character to be short lived; every Deaf Oracle I've ever seen has died a horribly avoidable death.

Edit: Oh yeah, you avoid spell failure. But not the auto fail perception.

[Jack_Simth]

Thematically, I want him to come off as someone who lived a hard life in a place where cruelty or indifference ran rampant. The Dimdweller trait was also to reflect that the place where he lived was somewhere were direct sunlight was not a common sight. I was thinking maybe a undercity area like living in the sewers or in a area where the Underdark and surface world interacted. I could have seen him develop into a rogue or fighter if he wasn't touched by dark powers. I see him playing off a cordial and formal, however, when he gets crossed or angered, he will use every tool at his disposal to settle the score. Eventually getting to the point in combat being like I call down the powers of darkness to hurt and hamper my enemies... queue demonic laughter. lol

You've got a good idea running.


I didn't realize I would need to worry about being an Arcane caster.
Well... theoretically it should be the group worrying about it, rather than one individual. But you're the only one (that we know of) here for us to give advice to, so...

If our 5th player plays a Summoner wouldn't he occupy that role.
Sort of. Summoner spellcasting - at least, if it's not Unchained Summoner, which has a much worse spell list - is disguised tier-2 spellcasting... if you pick the right spells. It's got the bard progression (a tier-3 class, the tier where you find most of the classes that cap out at 6th level spells), but the spell list has a lot of discounted spells - for example: Lesser Planar Binding as a 4th level spell (vs. 5th for a Sorcerer or Wizard) means the Summoner can potentially have it at 10th - the same level as the Sorcerer. Dominate Monster is 9th for a Sorcerer or Wizard, but 6th for a Summoner... which means a Summoner can get it at 16th level - one level before the Wizard has the option. The net effect being that the "normal" summoner is a tier-2 caster, although the lower end of tier-2, just for that. The Eidolon boosts things nicely, making the Summoner a reasonable Tier-2 class (unchained drops a tier).

If you don't pick the right spells, however ... Fly is still 3rd, See Invisibility is still 2nd, Polymorph isn't on the list: There are a lot of non-discounted spells, and they're missing a lot of the "gem" spells. Combined with the smaller number of spells known and per day, and it's a lot harder for the Summoner to fill the Arcanist role.

Plus, of course, you don't know that your other friend is going Summoner.

I have only played PF once a long time ago, and played a Wizard. No summoner in that group.

I did not realize about those spells and item. Our DM says if I put a skill point into linguistics I can read lips. Which is what I would be doing if I choose deaf.
That's a better way to handle it, then. Much harder to take away from you.


Deaf is probably the single most debilitating Curse an Oracle can choose. -4 Init and 20% spell failure is absolutely brutal. Be prepared for your character to be short lived; every Deaf Oracle I've ever seen has died a horribly avoidable death.

Edit: Oh yeah, you avoid spell failure. But not the auto fail perception.
It's easier if you start the game at a higher level; the init penalty eventually goes away, and you only miss out on hearing-only perception checks; the others eventually get a boost.

[metalith]

Yea the -4 Initiave hurts hard. I do hope not to die but I'll let you know once things start if I kick the bucket. I'm hoping to live long enough for the curse to downgrade and I pick up tremorsense. I don't mind my character dying if it dies in service to the story, but not going to make it easy.

I understand about party optimization. The summoner player and I are the only ones with any sort of long term D&D experience, but after years of 5e and before that 3.5 experience, PF is a gap for us. I'll do my best to fill the role of an arcane caster, as long as it can fit in my guise of controller/debuffer. I know the Shadow spells can mimic a lot of spells and never used them before. I prefer Conjuration. Transmutation and Divination when I've done an arcane casters before. Never a huge fan of the Illusion school besides a few things like Blur and Mirror Image.

I took a look at the spirit guide and Shaman class but wondering how that spirit animal feature works. Is it essentially a familiar I choose everyday or something else?

[Rynjin]

Y
I took a look at the spirit guide and Shaman class but wondering how that spirit animal feature works. Is it essentially a familiar I choose everyday or something else?

Your Spirit Animal is a Familiar in all respects; it does not change daily or anything. Like a Witch, your Spirit Animal is also your spellbook.

You get a single static Spirit as the Shaman which grants your Spirit Animal a special ability (eg a Stone Shaman gets a Familiar with DR/Adamantine). At level 4, you also get a Wandering Spirit, which changes daily, but gains powers at a slower progression.

[Jack_Simth]

I took a look at the spirit guide and Shaman class but wondering how that spirit animal feature works. Is it essentially a familiar I choose everyday or something else?As a Spirit Guide Oracle: You don't get that feature of the daily spirit.
As a Shaman: You get one from your class, which is always under the effects of your primary spirit. When you pick a wandering spirit, it picks up the extra stuff from that spirit.

Edit: Note that if you want a familiar to help handle some of the social stuff, that's possible. There's a direct feat with one requirement (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/familiar-bond/), which you can get at 1st as a human, and an Indrect one (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) which you can get at 3rd (pick the Arcane Bloodline (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline/) and Arcane Bond for a familiar). Pick a thrush for the ability to speak one language and the +3 to Diplomacy (on the indirect route). Give it the Ambassador (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/ambassador/) archetype (and Figment (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/figment-familiar-archetype/) if you go the indirect route), and then it can speak for you reasonably well. You'll still need ranks in Diplomancy, though.

[metalith]

Using the feedback provided and a few tweaks, here is what I have so far. I decided to switch out Dimdweller for Fey Magic, instead. While Low-Light vision isn't as powerful as Dark Vision, it still works for what I want. Darkvision will come from the appropriate Revelation. His backstory will remain mostly the same, but with some tweaks. I understand being a deaf face character will be a little unique, but I enjoy a challenges for roleplay. I've play a mute Fighter before, but he wasn't a face character. Though if it turns out to be more detrimental to RP, I'll talk to my GM and see if can rework it and choose a different appropriate curse.

Blackburn Cross
Human Spirit Guide Shadow Oracle
True Neutral
Curse: Deaf
Alternate Racial Trait: Fey Magic (Urban) (Perception/Stealth) (Low-Light Vision)
Traits: Dangerous Curious, Fast Talker

Str 19
Dex 23
Con 22
Int 20
Wis 18
Cha 24+2=26

Feats
1. Augment Summons
B. Extra Revelations (Dark Secrets)
B. Silent Feat

Revelations
Army of Darkness
Dark Secrets

Skills
Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge Religion, Linguistics (CC), Perception, Spellcraft, Stealth, Use Magic Device

Spells Like Ability
In Urban Environments: Chameleon Scales , Know Direction, Flare & Goodberry 1/Day

Spells
0 - Create Water, Detect Magic, Light, Mending
1 - Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Shadow Trap (Dark Secrets)

I plan on ranking Dungeonerring from level 2 and higher. At level 3 when I get my Wandering Spirit I plan on getting a Compsognathus to balance out the deafened initiative penalty and either focus on Flame/Frost & Life spirit.

[Kurald Galain]

Are you planning to focus on summon spells, when you have a summoner in the party? I don't think the shadow template is an improvement over celestial, though.

[Jack_Simth]

Are you planning to focus on summon spells, when you have a summoner in the party? I don't think the shadow template is an improvement over celestial, though.

It's not worth a feat, no.

Slightly worse DR (Magic vs. alignment), slightly better SR (CR+6 vs. CR +5), plus low-light vision, plus shadow blend, always an Outsider, -Smite ... I think it's use in the build is to avoid Spell Focus(Conjouration) for Augment Summoning, and exists mostly for flavor.

Note, however, that summoning is a bad choice in general at 1st level. You spend one round of casting to get one round from a bad meatshield. Not worth the exchange. It can be later when you get a few rounds out of them.... but not at 1st. But then, you don't have any Conjouration(Summoning) spells on your list yet. Saving the 3rd level feat for something else?

[metalith]

Currently not 100% focused on it. I know that during like level 1-3 summon monsters are not so great, because of the short time before it goes away. I can always pick up Augment Summons when I would pick up the Summon Monster spells. If we have the summoner, he can use his summons for meat shields and I use mine for abilities like healing, control or debuff.

If I ignore summoning all together, I am not 100% what feats to pick up at start.

[Kurald Galain]

For an oracle, Noble Scion (cha to initiative) and Steadfast Personality (cha to mind saves) are solid picks. Otherwise, I suggest metamagics like Bouncing Spell.

[metalith]

I was thinking about Metamagic Rods once I have the money to buy them for metamagics. Since I remember for spontaneous casters, not only does it take a higher level spell slot but also a standard cast becomes a full round cast as well. I can't remember if the casting time increases for each metamagic added or in general. I have this strange ability to accumulate money. Last time I played Pathfinder, my Wizard level 14 ended the game with nearly 200k GP even after buying everything he could want and find. My last 5e Cleric ended up with over 100K Platinum pieces.

Should I focus on the darkness and illusion (Shadow) spells, what good feats should I consider?

[Kurald Galain]

I was thinking about Metamagic Rods once I have the money to buy them for metamagics. Since I remember for spontaneous casters, not only does it take a higher level spell slot but also a standard cast becomes a full round cast as well.
Yes, you should buy some metarods as well. But that casting time increase also applies to using metarods.

[metalith]

To quote Bobby Singer... Bawls.

Well, I'll still get rods but was hoping to use them to avoid increasing the cast time. I don't plan on being in melee and having used to get back into the idea of things such as casting defensively and old school concentration checks since I've only been playing 5e the last couple of years.

[metalith]

The 5th player and I talked and he has decided to play an Arcanist instead of a Summoner or Hunter. So, I think this probably how I am going to have my PC finalized unless anyone has anymore suggestions or recommendations for it. Especially for the first 5-7 levels.

[metalith]

I decided to look into Pathfinder's summoning related feats so I can try and chart out my PC's growth feat wise from at least level 1 to level 13. I see a large number of them, but trying to figure out besides Augment Summons I should worry about and which ones are trash.

I am starting as True Neutral but may move toward Neutral Evil as the game goes.

[Kurald Galain]

Definitely Superior Summoning, and Acadamae Graduate.

I've found that Summon Good Monster gives the best extension to your list, if you feel you need that.

[Firebug]

The 5th player and I talked and he has decided to play an Arcanist instead of a Summoner or Hunter. So, I think this probably how I am going to have my PC finalized unless anyone has anymore suggestions or recommendations for it. Especially for the first 5-7 levels.If the other player wasn't going the knowledges route, Deific Obedience(Irori (https://aonprd.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Irori)) gets you +4 to all knowledge checks and Spirit Guide (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Oracle%20Spirit%20 Guide)->Benefit of Wisdom (https://aonprd.com/ShamanSpiritDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Lore) hex gets you Cha instead of Int to all Int-based skill checks(ie, Knowledge checks). Add in a Circlet of Persuasion (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Circlet%20of%2 0Persuasion) and you are at +15 with the stats you posted. Still need a rank in each, but you should be able to identify everything.

Don't forget Shadow Enchantment (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shadow%20Enchantment). And remember that your allies can willingly fail a save when you use the Shadow line as buffs. Notably when you use Shadow Conjuration to summon a monster that has healing spells. Expanded Summon Monster (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Expanded%20Summon%20Mons ter) gets you most of Summon Good Monster (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Summon%20Good%20Monster) anyway, though there is some that don't overlap, or are at different levels.

[metalith]

If the other player wasn't going the knowledges route, Deific Obedience(Irori (https://aonprd.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Irori)) gets you +4 to all knowledge checks and Spirit Guide (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Oracle%20Spirit%20 Guide)->Benefit of Wisdom (https://aonprd.com/ShamanSpiritDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Lore) hex gets you Cha instead of Int to all Int-based skill checks(ie, Knowledge checks). Add in a Circlet of Persuasion (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Circlet%20of%2 0Persuasion) and you are at +15 with the stats you posted. Still need a rank in each, but you should be able to identify everything.

Don't forget Shadow Enchantment (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shadow%20Enchantment). And remember that your allies can willingly fail a save when you use the Shadow line as buffs. Notably when you use Shadow Conjuration to summon a monster that has healing spells. Expanded Summon Monster (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Expanded%20Summon%20Mons ter) gets you most of Summon Good Monster (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Summon%20Good%20Monster) anyway, though there is some that don't overlap, or are at different levels.

While I like the idea of the Deific Obedience. I am not sure I could pull that off. I have been leaning towards worshiping/devotion toward Groetus / Yog-Sototh as embodiess of shadows and darkness, without the direct over malice that some of the other dieties with the darkness domains possess.

I did not see the potential of Lore to really boost my Skills. I would have to see how the Wandering Spirit balances out. Though I know our Arcanist will have a 26 in his Int. He has given me a list and he has arcana, religion, and planes. Since being the only one in the party capable of healing, I am not sure how needed that will be. So was thinking about focusing my Wandering spirit on Flame/Frost or Life. Though if the group has good synergy. I have a feeling the arcanist and I may end up calling a lot of HP sponges to the field.

I think I like Expanded Summon Monster, since I plan on riding the Neutral / Neutral Evil line. So Summon Good Monster is going to be out for me. Though I was looking at Summon Neutral Monster since it seems like that one has some decent abilities.

I have been trying to look for everything about Shadow Conjuration/Evocation. This is going to be my first illusion heavy PC. Its not a magic school I had a high opinion off in other D&D games, but it seems like it could be fun for this concept.

[Firebug]

Consider the Crook of Cidhureen (https://aonprd.com/MagicStavesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Crook%20of%20Cidh ureen). It's a staff, but it allows you to spend charges to increase the realness of your shadow spells. It's also from a specific adventure, so you might have to work with your GM.

There are some other ways to increase realness, but usually limited by class or race(wayang, gnome?).

[metalith]

Consider the Crook of Cidhureen (https://aonprd.com/MagicStavesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Crook%20of%20Cidh ureen). It's a staff, but it allows you to spend charges to increase the realness of your shadow spells. It's also from a specific adventure, so you might have to work with your GM.

There are some other ways to increase realness, but usually limited by class or race(wayang, gnome?).

I will need to find that. Yes. Yes. Yes. YES!!!

Question: do those items recharge? Since I don't see a recharge mechanic in the write up.

[Firebug]

I will need to find that. Yes. Yes. Yes. YES!!!

Question: do those items recharge? Since I don't see a recharge mechanic in the write up.It's a staff, so has 10 charges, you can sacrifice a spell slot... you know what I'll just copy/paste.

Staves hold a maximum of 10 charges. Each spell cast from a staff consumes one or more charges. When a staff runs out of charges, it cannot be used until it is recharged. Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff. For example, a 9th-level wizard with a staff of fire could imbue the staff with one charge per day by using up one of his 4th-level spells. A staff cannot gain more than one charge per day and a caster cannot imbue more than one staff per day.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The exemplar trait "Curator of Mystic Secrets" allows you to avoid the casting time increase on metamagic a few times per day and lets you take as many Magic Traits as you want, though it costs both your initial traits to take it. Just something to consider!

[metalith]

That is a very nice trait. I just wish you could use 2 metamagic rods at once, so I could get extend and quicken for Summon monster spells.