In theory, Is it possible to infect and control The Weave?

[Jazath]

A wizard draws magical power from the Weave. In theory could a spell designed to pull apart the weave in of itself? Much like conjuring an anti-magic spell but aim it into the fabric of magic itself?
That being said, while conjuring power from magic can I construct a spell/machine that would allow me to alter the flow and control of magic? Much like harnessing its pure energy of spellfire but harnessing it ALL for the sake of manipulating and controlling it.
Are some of these things possible?


The Weave, controlled by Mystryl or one of her successors, was a way through which raw magic was accessed,
tapped into and used by casters of magic.
The Weave was the way in which magic presented itself to beings for
their use, and it flowed throughout the world, touching almost every corner of existence, with exception of dead-magic zones.
SO since a caster could tap into it, given enough power could he infect it with a spell that creates a paradox? Harming the weave by manipulating it and pulling it apart?

[Quentinas]

MMh the last time I think a wizard tried to do something similar (taking control of the Weave) it became a vestige (see Karsus) .
Then it depends, does the Weave exists in your world? Does the wizards know that the Weave exists? Does epic spells created by Mystra could act as a firewall to the Weave? How do you gain line of sight with the Weave as it is normally not seen?
That said... i think it can be possible (at least as Karsus did something similar) but it would be risky

[Jazath]

MMh the last time I think a wizard tried to do something similar (taking control of the Weave) it became a vestige (see Karthus) .
Then it depends, does the Weave exists in your world? Does the wizards know that the Weave exists? Does epic spells created by Mystra could act as a firewall to the Weave? How do you gain line of sight with the Weave as it is normally not seen?

The weave does exist, the Borg simply wish to control it. To inflict order by controlling magic.
The weave is a singular source correct? Then maybe I could send a spell into the weave. Like a virus into a body. Channel the weave and at the same time send a spell INTO the weave while channeling it?

[Quentinas]

It could be something at a singular flow, like a tap when is opened. Normally the water doesn't go up in the tap, so the Weave could be something similar so the virus idea could not work. If the virus idea doesn't work the wizard should try to find from where the Weave come and infect from here. The main problem still exists as normally as far as I know the weave can't be seen (Another epic spell could be the solution to that, a mix of arcane sight, and true vision probably)
There is even the question if the raw magical energy can be corrupted but I'm quite sure that one could try to channel a virus of wild magic zone in the weave as virus , even if that would be uncontrollable and be dangerous for the wizard who do it , if he doesn't prepare a solution for wild magic zones

[Zanos]

You should check out the Shadow Weave, which is Shar's own version of the weave that effectively parasitizes off of it, and Karsus's avatar, which is one epic wizards attempt to temporarily control the weave.

[Nifft]

The Weave only exists in the Forgotten Realms, which is a divine plot-railroad (the gods) built on top of a larger divine plot-railroad (Ao).

You can do what the gods will, and the gods can do what Ao wills. The Weave is closely watched, too.

Anything is possible if it's not your own idea but is actually Ao's plan.


So: figure out why infecting and controlling the Weave is secretly part of Ao's plan to preserve the status quo, and you're golden.

[Khatoblepas]

Theoretically, you could Teleport Through Time to a time when you could cast Karsus' Avatar (before the advent of Epic Spells that prevent messing with the Weave), and if you had some way to share it with every single other member of your collective you might be able to control it, since a single powerful wizard could not.

It's an exciting plot device to use in a game, but I'm not sure it's viable in optimization since it requires you go back to a time when the game ran on AD&D 2e.

[gijoemike]

That is the job of the goddess Mystra in the Forgoten Realms. So yes, become the next mystra and you get to control the weave. Let's be honest with each other. She has ALWAYS done a piss poor job. Dead magic zones, Shar's shadow weave, weird control and access to lvl 20 and beyond magic. And Fate dictates she has to die and usher in a new age. Even Ao cannot prevent it. This has happened several times and it is always a terrible troublesome time.

Are you asking as from the position of something that isn't the assigned diety of Magic, usually known as Mystra? You can shape the weave to create or mend a dead magic zone. There is mention of clerics of Mystra mending patches of the weave in a fashion. But that isn't access or control, its just a nudge in a direction of movement.

If you mean full on control who can cast magic and limit access to it. The answer is a solid no. Every single time in the history of FR when some uppity epic level mage as attempted it it has gone horribly AGE ending wrong. And it has never gone remotely well or ok for the entity that does it. Plus the deities have put multiple safe guards in place each time to prevent this mess from happening any more.

But the INFECT idea might be possible. Casters in an area who use magic may get sick if you successfully tamper with the weave. I have a plot line that deals with sick mages. This is caused by an artifact made from shadow weave magics that is broken and is leaking epic level broken magic back into the weave as it is ... dying. In my story the pcs need to figure out what is going on, find this old artifact, and mercy kill it. But the destruction of an artifact has major issues in and of itself. It is an excellent way to let the PCs get rewrites of their character or several spontaneous retrainings. But this is at least 1 wonky artifact, multiple epic level spells, and a ton of time to let the infection grow. That could easily take years in game time.

[Telok]

Gain control over the being that has control of the weave. Bonus points if whatever you're trying to do is incredibly dangerous because you get to potentially kill a diety as a circuit breaker to save yourself. Although some of those FR gods seem to die kind of easy.

Completely off the wall, I can never stop thinking about toupees and how all the FR magic users are weird toupee fetishists.

[Asmotherion]

The Netherese Archmage Karsus tries something similar to that effect once, with a level 12 spell (Level 10 and above spells are Epic for referance). Let's say it didn't end well for him, and he's now a Vessel for Binders.

In retaliation, Mystra made it impossible for mortals to cast above 10 level spells, and since we already know that a 12th level spell was not enough to suceed, something lower than that would not stand a chance. At least theoretically, and following the Lore.

By RAW, the closest one can get to it is making an Ice Assasin of Mysta/Mystril/Whoever the New God/ess of magic may be. That said, abusing that power will not be without reprocation by other deities, but hey, it's theoretically possible to do this, and that's what counts. And, I can totally see an Epic Level Cleric of Sharr, Cyric or any one of the Dark Gods.

[hamishspence]

The Netherese Archmage Karsus tries something similar to that effect once, with a level 12 spell (Level 10 and above spells are Epic for referance). Let's say it didn't end well for him, and he's now a Vessel for Binders.

In retaliation, Mystra made it impossible for mortals to cast above 10 level spells, and since we already know that a 12th level spell was not enough to suceed, something lower than that would not stand a chance. At least theoretically, and following the Lore."Epic spells" and "Level 10 or higher spells" are two different things.

Mystra blocked all Level 10 or higher spells (not counting Improved Heightened versions of 9th level spells, or massively metamagiced versions of lower level spells) from existing.

She did not block Epic spells from existing though - Elven High Mages still routinely use them, as do a few non-elven casters with the Epic Spellcasting feat.

[Asmotherion]

"Epic spells" and "Level 10 or higher spells" are two different things.

Mystra blocked all Level 10 or higher spells (not counting Improved Heightened versions of 9th level spells, or massively metamagiced versions of lower level spells) from existing.

She did not block Epic spells from existing though - Elven High Mages still routinely use them, as do a few non-elven casters with the Epic Spellcasting feat.

I thought before this there were actual Epic spells of higher level than 10 (Not counting Metamagiced ones) back in 2nd edition. In any case, aren't Epic Spells technically 10th level spells (at least for DC purposes etc)?

That's why I thought she banned 11th level and above spells.

[hamishspence]

I thought before this there were actual Epic spells of higher level than 10 (Not counting Metamagiced ones) back in 2nd edition. In any case, aren't Epic Spells technically 10th level spells (at least for DC purposes etc)?

That's why I thought she banned 11th level and above spells.

Epic spells only count as 10th level for DCs etc.

There were 10th level spells that didn't follow the Epic Spellcasting rules - and they didn't work after Karsus's Avatar.

As a result, all Netherese survivors with "10th level Non-Epic spells (or higher)" who wanted to replicate them, had to turn to the Epic Spellcasting rules instead.

Mystra made it impossible to cast "10th level Non-Epic Spells", "11th level Non-Epic Spells" and "12th level Non-Epic Spells".

Page 43 of Lost Empires of Faerun goes into detail on this.

[Asmotherion]

Epic spells only count as 10th level for DCs etc.

There were 10th level spells that didn't follow the Epic Spellcasting rules - and they didn't work after Karsus's Avatar.

As a result, all Netherese survivors with "10th level Non-Epic spells (or higher)" who wanted to replicate them, had to turn to the Epic Spellcasting rules instead.

Mystra made it impossible to cast "10th level Non-Epic Spells", "11th level Non-Epic Spells" and "12th level Non-Epic Spells".

Page 43 of Lost Empires of Faerun goes into detail on this.
Well, I guess I know what I'm gonna do today, Ferb.

Some serious re-reading. Haven't read this book for at least 10 years or something. My lore seems to be a bit off.

[Quertus]

In theory? Absolutely. Mystra is notoriously bad at monitoring her weave.

In practice? Most of the needed toolset just isn't available.

A "Borg" approach actually is one of the most plausible ideas: if you can't cast at that level of *power*, cast a a weaker version a billion times simultaneously. Kinda equivalent to aiding epic spells, actually.

Still, Time Travel is a handy tool for this - that, plus certain older spells are how Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, accomplished something similar, on a smaller scale.

[Nifft]

Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named

There's a guy on here who has to take a drink every time you do that.

I guess it's okay since you're posting during brunch.

[FrogInATopHat]

There's a guy on here who has to take a drink every time you do that.

I guess it's okay since you're posting during brunch.

I was gonna say something. But I realised that just because I've been lurking since the titular account was named doesn't mean it wold be clear that it was meant in a friendly way. I don't have the prior form for people to know it was done with love.

Second such post I've seen in 15 minutes though.

[Nifft]

Second such post I've seen in 15 minutes though.

Good thing for you it's Sunday.

Cheers!

[Quertus]

There's a guy on here who has to take a drink every time you do that.

I guess it's okay since you're posting during brunch.

Maybe I've got stock in alcohol sales :smallwink:

Really, I'm just hoping the phrase makes it into Playground bingo some day.

You did make me laugh, though, so, from my PoV, it was worth it.


I was gonna say something. But I realised that just because I've been lurking since the titular account was named doesn't mean it wold be clear that it was meant in a friendly way. I don't have the prior form for people to know it was done with love.

Second such post I've seen in 15 minutes though.

I mean, I may ask, but I tend to assume things are meant in a friendly manner, and I've got a fairly thick skin - I'm almost never offended by things people say online. So don't hold back on my account (and maybe an emoticon, to ensure others know you're joking?).

Did I make another such comment? It seems, at long last, I may need to search for "Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named". :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: ah, yes, I see - Quertus is both tactically inept *and* has utilized spells to manipulate the weave on a small scale. I did mention him twice earlier.

[noob]

Simpler solution: assimilate the goddess projecting the weave directly.
All you need is for her to receive the idiot ball from the writers.

[Bugbear]

Yes you can do....or at least try to do anything to the Weave. FR even has a couple of spells that do effect the Weave.


But I would note that in FR the Weave is not just a "magical energy field" , The Weave IS Mystra.

[Jazath]

Simpler solution: assimilate the goddess projecting the weave directly.
All you need is for her to receive the idiot ball from the writers.

Sounds like a plan. :smallwink: But assimilating gods is still in research.

While I'm at it, destroy the weave. If controlling it proves to be too risky I have my own source of magic: The Ring of Evermagic, that functions as its own weave.
I could cripple every spellcaster who channels from the weave and perhaps kill Mystra in a indirect way instead of stomping at her doorway and screaming "I'm gonna kill you!!" while giving myself an overwhelming advantage as being the only spellcaster in their little.....what is it? Universe? Is that where the weave covers or is it those pesky crystal shells. In Jazaths universe we have galaxies an such instead of being cooped up in spheres. This is our first time approach to spheres like these after we scooped up Evermeet. Leaving only the Queen of Elves and some royals such as Serin Ghar an such.
SO....yeah.

[Melcar]

Theoretically, you could Teleport Through Time to a time when you could cast Karsus' Avatar (before the advent of Epic Spells that prevent messing with the Weave), and if you had some way to share it with every single other member of your collective you might be able to control it, since a single powerful wizard could not.

It's an exciting plot device to use in a game, but I'm not sure it's viable in optimization since it requires you go back to a time when the game ran on AD&D 2e.

Sure, but could a mage from the now, cast magic then, when the weave and the way wizards accessed it was so different? You might not be able to cast anything at all... Also, gaining access to Karsus research notes on a spell he devotetd 10 years of his life to, is not going to be easy. I mean AFAIK, he shared it with no-one and was somehow able to keep it a secret from Mystryl... Also, Karsus was something of a genius autistic savant... so it would take a crazy level of genius to try and replicate it, not to mention some extremely exotic material components. It was a level 12 spell, so you needed to be level 40 or 41 to access that level...

[Jazath]

Sure, but could a mage from the now, cast magic then, when the weave and the way wizards accessed it was so different? You might not be able to cast anything at all... Also, gaining access to Karsus research notes on a spell he devotetd 10 years of his life to, is not going to be easy. I mean AFAIK, he shared it with no-one and was somehow able to keep it a secret from Mystryl... Also, Karsus was something of a genius autistic savant... so it would take a crazy level of genius to try and replicate it, not to mention some extremely exotic material components. It was a level 12 spell, so you needed to be level 40 or 41 to access that level...


603 Wizard/5 Archmage with a spellcraft DC of +1,052. Can we pass it? I'm sure of it.
With a spellcraft in the thousands I'm sure to properly cast and contain that sort of epic spell.
Wait, epic spells vs level 12? Isn't level 12 a 2e sort of thing? Since epic spells reach unlimited levels with the properly high spellcraft?
What is 3.5e terms of a 12 level spell? I'm confused!