A Critical Flaw in the Tippyverse

[Destro2119]

So I was recently reading through the much vaunted Tippyverse thread when I noticed a rather egregious problem:


D&D is a setting where there are no large scale defenses against teleportation magic. It is impossible to prevent an enemy from dropping his entire military right into the middle of your nation with teleportation circles whenever he chooses to do so. The only viable way to defend yourself is to concentrate all of your vital military infrastructure in a relatively small area and concentrate your forces on that area; meaning that you will always have forces on hand to deal with a potential enemy attack. The traditional D&D towns and villages simply can’t be defended because your enemies can drop thousands of troops into them in under a minute and then evacuate back out the next minute.

How can this be? TP Circle is only 5 ft big, and takes a long time to set up. Mass teleport is difficult and not enough for armies. Also, why do the high level wizards not just rebel and destroy the world or something? How "common" are class levels?

[InvisibleBison]

A teleportation cicle has a 5-foot radius, meaning it's 10 feet wide. Thus, 4 medium creatures can use it simultaneously. In the scenario being described, a bunch of soldiers form four lines radiating out of the circle, and run into the circle and then out at the destination. If each soldier takes a double move action, a single teleportation circle allows for 44 soldiers each round to move to the destination - more if the soldiers have enhanced speed. "Thousands of troops in under a minute" would take quite a few circles, but it's doable. I don't see how they're expected to evacuate out quickly, though.

And as for high level wizards "rebelling" - my understanding is that in the Tippyverse, high-level wizards rule the world. They can't very well rebel against themselves.

[NotInventedHere]

One of the many, many assumptions baked into the Tippyverse is that teleportation circles activate in 'real-time', such that, as InvisibleBison notes, a soldier can move into the circle, be teleported part-way through his movement, and keep moving immediately on the other side. After all, nothing in the book explicitly says that it doesn't work that way. (You may notice this being the foundation of a lot of Tippyverse stuff, such as the idea that you can get around the rules for how much a magical item that constantly casts Wish ought to cost by instead making a "trap" that casts it, using the much cheaper trap costings.)

[Zombimode]

Yeah, it's a bit strange that you've picked this specific issue as your critical flaw of the Tippyverse - there are many more cirtical core assumptions that will brake Tippyverse if you do not follow them.
The "trap" thingy, that directly goes against the rules for magic item creation, was already mentioned.

[Destro2119]

One of the many, many assumptions baked into the Tippyverse is that teleportation circles activate in 'real-time', such that, as InvisibleBison notes, a soldier can move into the circle, be teleported part-way through his movement, and keep moving immediately on the other side. After all, nothing in the book explicitly says that it doesn't work that way. (You may notice this being the foundation of a lot of Tippyverse stuff, such as the idea that you can get around the rules for how much a magical item that constantly casts Wish ought to cost by instead making a "trap" that casts it, using the much cheaper trap costings.)

I accept traps and the teleport movement stuff b/c that is RAW and logical, respectively.

My problem is with the prevalence of teleporting b/c it doesn't make sense to be feasible on such a scale. Has Tippy explained this? Can anybody explain this?

[Rebel7284]

You can also have your troops have the ability to teleport themselves. Almost all devils and demons have greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Devil/demon army is pretty easy to build.

[Destro2119]

You can also have your troops have the ability to teleport themselves. Almost all devils and demons have greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Devil/demon army is pretty easy to build.

But that is presumably too unstable to be widely desirable for wizards. Plus, shadesteel golems/warforged are the norm anyways.

So my problem still stands. Can anybody explain it?

PS: How does Tippyverse make Warforged?

[KillianHawkeye]

PS: How does Tippyverse make Warforged?

Any setting that isn't Eberron that decides to include Warforged in it probably isn't going to use the extremely Eberron-specific origins of the Warforged or the never-disclosed means of creating them.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by NotInventedHere
You may notice this being the foundation of a lot of Tippyverse stuff….


Originally Posted by Zombimode
…there are many more cirtical core assumptions that will brake Tippyverse if you do not follow them.

Could you elaborate on these? I’ve always wondered how much of the Tippyverse relies on some very permissive readings.

[Destro2119]

But what about the main point of my thread? I can't really ask Tippy himself anymore, so this seems to be the biggest RAW problem.

Also, did the setting ever get published? Is there a sourcebook out there?

[liquidformat]

But what about the main point of my thread? I can't really ask Tippy himself anymore, so this seems to be the biggest RAW problem.

Also, did the setting ever get published? Is there a sourcebook out there?

I don't really believe it is reasonable any society that is as powerful as tippyverse claims to be would have found ways to setup dimensional lock permanently into all of there cities such that the only way to get in or out of them dimensionally is through permanent teleportation circles that are heavily guarded and taxed. Heck if you had such powerful magic users then most likely most of entire worlds would be setup with dimensional locks except for key areas which are heavily guarded.

In general I have never been a fan of tippyverse not only because of the RAW abuse but also because of a lot of the base assumptions about the general proliferation of knowledge among the masses and the indifference of gods/religious organizations.

For example while in theory clerics don't have to worship a god to gain power in practice what god would be ok with some random chucklehead proclaiming he believes in some random ideal and therefore has the right and authority to usurp the power of the domains they have control over. In practice clerics without specified gods would be marked as heretics by all religions and hunted down and killed.

Similarly arcane power would be controlled and regulated what government or organization would be ok with people who can leverage power similar to nuclear bombs to freely run around. High level spells would be guarded as the most precious resources of whatever organization controls them and any high level magic user you don't have control over is a threat.

[Jazath]

But what about the main point of my thread? I can't really ask Tippy himself anymore, so this seems to be the biggest RAW problem.

Also, did the setting ever get published? Is there a sourcebook out there?

Your inbox is full. I can't answer your question.
Unless my response is said here.

[gijoemike]

With tippy verse nonsense you the uber epic level wizard are not the only caster. You aren't even the only high lvl wizard in the command structure.

Squeeze rules. The 5 ft square is a fighting area. There is only about 3" of distance between ranks when marching. And you can easily get 2 guys in a 5" square at 1/2 file distance. So that 10" across circle can easily fit 12 guys at once and that isn't even stretching the rules. 6 secs to load and trigger. and 6 seconds for the previous team to move out of the way. Using just 3 circles would get multiple platoons of troops crossed over ( in a disarray ) in 1 minute.

Now using caster level tricks like ioun stones, and certain gear, perhaps rituals. A level 9 mage could use Teleport without Error to move even more troops. The wizard would need to roll caster level checks, that is why we boost the CL so that check will not fail. The mage can just use plain teleport to escape with troops if everything goes south.

So say groups of 32-36 troops drop into key points, with caster support, and form up/buff up in less than 2 minutes, the city is screwed and is fighting from multiple points in the streets. 18-24 seconds to teleport, 24 seconds to move to position/survey surrounding, 18 more seconds for mass buffs, 12 seconds for single target buffs, 30 seconds to move and engage troops. And this happens in several locations at once.

At no point do you need to move 1000's of troops that fast. There aren't going to be large scale LOTR style battles. It will be street fighting and cramped quarters at all times. We don't siege the castle, we take the larder and the barracks in the first 3 minutes of fighting.


All of the above has you the PC and your cohort doing nothing after you set up the teleport circles.

[Troacctid]

But what about the main point of my thread? I can't really ask Tippy himself anymore, so this seems to be the biggest RAW problem.
Why exactly can't you ask Tippy? He's not dead or anything.

[Nifft]

I accept traps and the teleport movement stuff b/c that is RAW and logical, respectively.

It's more RAUW (Rules As UnWritten, or "the rules don't explicitly prohibit this, therefore I can").

As a trivial example, Tippyverse wish traps are not RAW.

Here's the core rules from the primary source regarding spell traps:



MAGIC TRAPS
Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps.


RAW implications include:
- "Many spells" => not all spells
- "create dangerous traps" => non-dangerous traps, such as wish "traps" and heal "traps", can't be created

Both of these are true; either is sufficient to overturn the Tippyverse.

[remetagross]

RAW implications include:
- "Many spells" => not all spells
- "create dangerous traps" => non-dangerous traps, such as wish "traps" and heal "traps", can't be created

Both of these are true; either is sufficient to overturn the Tippyverse.

Well, to be fair, Wish could be included in the "many" mentioned above. And a trap of Wish can certainly be dangerous: the Wish only needs to duplicate, say, Horrid Wilting.

[Destro2119]

Well, to be fair, Wish could be included in the "many" mentioned above. And a trap of Wish can certainly be dangerous: the Wish only needs to duplicate, say, Horrid Wilting.


I mean, I am mostly accepting this because a Pathfinder AP once had a repeating remove disease trap.

But this is STILL off the topic of my question. Can you please answer IT?

[Destro2119]

Why exactly can't you ask Tippy? He's not dead or anything.

I did. He ain't answering (and hasn't been active for over a year). Unless you know some way to contact him?

[Destro2119]

I don't really believe it is reasonable any society that is as powerful as tippyverse claims to be would have found ways to setup dimensional lock permanently into all of there cities such that the only way to get in or out of them dimensionally is through permanent teleportation circles that are heavily guarded and taxed. Heck if you had such powerful magic users then most likely most of entire worlds would be setup with dimensional locks except for key areas which are heavily guarded.

In general I have never been a fan of tippyverse not only because of the RAW abuse but also because of a lot of the base assumptions about the general proliferation of knowledge among the masses and the indifference of gods/religious organizations.

For example while in theory clerics don't have to worship a god to gain power in practice what god would be ok with some random chucklehead proclaiming he believes in some random ideal and therefore has the right and authority to usurp the power of the domains they have control over. In practice clerics without specified gods would be marked as heretics by all religions and hunted down and killed.

Similarly arcane power would be controlled and regulated what government or organization would be ok with people who can leverage power similar to nuclear bombs to freely run around. High level spells would be guarded as the most precious resources of whatever organization controls them and any high level magic user you don't have control over is a threat.

I mean, the wizards ARE the govt in the Tippyverse. Which makes much more sense. Read this for more info: https://mythcreants.com/blog/the-problem-with-oppressed-mages/

"In practice clerics without specified gods would be marked as heretics by all religions and hunted down and killed."

Which is why you subscribe to a god that holds tech/advancements/cities in esteem. If you say that gods must go down to stop tech, like FR, you have an entirely different problem.

This is still not too relevant to my original question, since I am asking how would you even set up the teleportation system in the first place.

[InvisibleBison]

But this is STILL off the topic of my question. Can you please answer IT?

What part of your question hasn't been answered to your satisfaction? It seems to me that all the issues you raised in the OP have been addressed.

[liquidformat]

RAW implications include:
- "Many spells" => not all spells
- "create dangerous traps" => non-dangerous traps, such as wish "traps" and heal "traps", can't be created

Both of these are true; either is sufficient to overturn the Tippyverse.

This is the screwy part about both spells, a heal trap could be setup to damage undead. In which case it would in fact be 'damaging' just as a harm trap could be setup to damage living creatures.

As remetagross said the functionality of a wish trap is so varied that it could in fact be dangerous. Magic Trap design is ambiguous enough that heal and wish spells are seemingly permissible.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by gijoemike
So say groups of 32-36 troops drop into key points, with caster support, and form up/buff up in less than 2 minutes, the city is screwed and is fighting from multiple points in the streets.

Those are small formations, and if they’re in the streets then they’ll be boxed in. And the city should have a rapid reaction force of its own, for exactly this situation.

Also, I would think the city could afford continuous cycles of divinations to determine when and where these teleport circles would open up. What’s to keep the city from anticipating the troop drop and cutting them down as soon as they appear?

[NotInventedHere]

In general I have never been a fan of tippyverse not only because of the RAW abuse but also because of a lot of the base assumptions about the general proliferation of knowledge among the masses and the indifference of gods/religious organizations.

I mean, fundamentally the Tippyverse is like Pun-Pun. It's a demonstration, not of anything actually useful, but of how bad WotC's editing is, and of how you can take badly-written rules and use them in bad faith to construct something weird and interesting and kinda cool.


Why exactly can't you ask Tippy? He's not dead or anything.
Yeah, but it's not like you'd get much of a useful answer these days - he's, uh, kinda gone Zarus-ite, if you get my meaning.


Well, to be fair, Wish could be included in the "many" mentioned above. And a trap of Wish can certainly be dangerous: the Wish only needs to duplicate, say, Horrid Wilting.

Sure, but like Nifft was saying, it's 'the rules don't say I *can't*'. Which is not a useful attitude to take unless you're going full TO, because of *course* the rules don't say you can't. The rules can't possibly cover every single possible interaction and every single edge case, or the DMG would need to be twenty volumes long and we'd all have to bring a trailer to games night just to carry our rulebooks.

EDIT:
This is still not too relevant to my original question, since I am asking how would you even set up the teleportation system in the first place.
Well...... Teleportation Circle is a ten-minute casting time and, if you want to use it for trade networks or whatever rather than invasions, can be made permanent? And like. Someone can go to another city, take a look around, and come back and describe it for a wizard. I'm not sure what's confusing you there?

[Destro2119]

What part of your question hasn't been answered to your satisfaction? It seems to me that all the issues you raised in the OP have been addressed.

Where? I do not see it.

[liquidformat]

I mean, fundamentally the Tippyverse is like Pun-Pun. It's a demonstration, not of anything actually useful, but of how bad WotC's editing is, and of how you can take badly-written rules and use them in bad faith to construct something weird and interesting and kinda cool.


Yeah, but it's not like you'd get much of a useful answer these days - he's, uh, kinda gone Zarus-ite, if you get my meaning.


Sure, but like Nifft was saying, it's 'the rules don't say I *can't*'. Which is not a useful attitude to take unless you're going full TO, because of *course* the rules don't say you can't. The rules can't possibly cover every single possible interaction and every single edge case, or the DMG would need to be twenty volumes long and we'd all have to bring a trailer to games night just to carry our rulebooks.

Again Hallowed/Unhallowed already give the basis of being able to setup no teleport/dimensional travel locations so simply creating a magic item something like city walls with the dimensional anchor/dimensional lock spell effect for everything inside of them seems pretty straightforward in preventing large armies from randomly blitzing your cities. expanding that to an entire world or plane with only special areas setup for travel seems very straightforward for an epic spellcaster. This also seems like something any competent hegemon would do when setting up their territory.

[Destro2119]

Those are small formations, and if they’re in the streets then they’ll be boxed in. And the city should have a rapid reaction force of its own, for exactly this situation.

Also, I would think the city could afford continuous cycles of divinations to determine when and where these teleport circles would open up. What’s to keep the city from anticipating the troop drop and cutting them down as soon as they appear?

On this specific topic, then I could STILL see the cities being more or less as they are as written because the whole mini cold war aspect is basically conserved.

What I am confused about is how teleportation is prevalent enough to even be a viable threat that warrants this type of thing. I don't see many people actually answering this.

[Destro2119]

Again Hallowed/Unhallowed already give the basis of being able to setup no teleport/dimensional travel locations so simply creating a magic item something like city walls with the dimensional anchor/dimensional lock spell effect for everything inside of them seems pretty straightforward in preventing large armies from randomly blitzing your cities. expanding that to an entire world or plane with only special areas setup for travel seems very straightforward for an epic spellcaster. This also seems like something any competent hegemon would do when setting up their territory.

Again, my point is that I want an explanation for how teleportation could be a viable enough threat to warrant any defenses at all.

[liquidformat]

Again, my point is that I want an explanation for how teleportation could be a viable enough threat to warrant any defenses at all.

ignoring gijoemike's issues with switching inches and feet seems to have gone over this....


With tippy verse nonsense you the uber epic level wizard are not the only caster. You aren't even the only high lvl wizard in the command structure.

Squeeze rules. The 5 ft square is a fighting area. There is only about 3" of distance between ranks when marching. And you can easily get 2 guys in a 5" square at 1/2 file distance. So that 10" across circle can easily fit 12 guys at once and that isn't even stretching the rules. 6 secs to load and trigger. and 6 seconds for the previous team to move out of the way. Using just 3 circles would get multiple platoons of troops crossed over ( in a disarray ) in 1 minute.

Now using caster level tricks like ioun stones, and certain gear, perhaps rituals. A level 9 mage could use Teleport without Error to move even more troops. The wizard would need to roll caster level checks, that is why we boost the CL so that check will not fail. The mage can just use plain teleport to escape with troops if everything goes south.

So say groups of 32-36 troops drop into key points, with caster support, and form up/buff up in less than 2 minutes, the city is screwed and is fighting from multiple points in the streets. 18-24 seconds to teleport, 24 seconds to move to position/survey surrounding, 18 more seconds for mass buffs, 12 seconds for single target buffs, 30 seconds to move and engage troops. And this happens in several locations at once.

At no point do you need to move 1000's of troops that fast. There aren't going to be large scale LOTR style battles. It will be street fighting and cramped quarters at all times. We don't siege the castle, we take the larder and the barracks in the first 3 minutes of fighting.


All of the above has you the PC and your cohort doing nothing after you set up the teleport circles.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Destro2119
What I am confused about is how teleportation is prevalent enough to even be a viable threat that warrants this type of thing. I don't see many people actually answering this.

I think one of the core assumptions of the Tippyverse is that cities are trading through a network of teleportation circles.

But that does bring up another issue:


Originally Posted by NotInventedHere
Teleportation Circle is a ten-minute casting time and, if you want to use it for trade networks or whatever rather than invasions, can be made permanent?

If the teleport circles are permanent, with known locations, then they should be easy to fortify against hostile use.

For starters, locate them outside the city proper. Legitimate commerce won’t be affected by having to travel another mile or two, and keeping the circles away from the city allows for containment of any invaders.

[Destro2119]

I think one of the core assumptions of the Tippyverse is that cities are trading through a network of teleportation circles.

But that does bring up another issue:



If the teleport circles are permanent, with known locations, then they should be easy to fortify against hostile use.

For starters, locate them outside the city proper. Legitimate commerce won’t be affected by having to travel another mile or two, and keeping the circles away from the city allows for containment of any invaders.

Frankly, my biggest problem isn't why the denizens aren't just trying to resettle the world even a little. Make a bunch of Instant Fortresses and use them as central points. If necessary, give the dragons/intelligent powerful creatures some positions in government. I don't suggest killing them b/c that is more trouble than it is worth.

[Destro2119]

I think one of the core assumptions of the Tippyverse is that cities are trading through a network of teleportation circles.

But that does bring up another issue:



If the teleport circles are permanent, with known locations, then they should be easy to fortify against hostile use.

For starters, locate them outside the city proper. Legitimate commerce won’t be affected by having to travel another mile or two, and keeping the circles away from the city allows for containment of any invaders.

Do you have any insights on my original question?

[Destro2119]

ignoring gijoemike's issues with switching inches and feet seems to have gone over this....

Do YOU have any insights on my original question? Or on the response you quoted?

[NigelWalmsley]

non-dangerous traps, such as wish "traps" and heal "traps", can't be created

Why wouldn't you be able to create a Heal trap? You can create a Harm trap, and Heal is exactly like Harm except that it targets a different set of creatures. A Fireball trap isn't dangerous to a Red Dragon or Fire Elemental, and it even heals an Iron Golem. But you can definitely make one.

[NotInventedHere]

Do YOU have any insights on my original question? Or on the response you quoted?

Could you clarify what your original question is? Like, are you just questioning "would spellcasters capable of casting teleportation circle exist in most settings?"? Because while DMs can rule as they like on the prevalence of high-level casters, I think the default assumption by DMG is 'yes, casters capable of 9ths (other than the PCs, if they get that high) do exist in the world'. And assuming that someone capable of casting teleportation circle and permanency exists, they certainly could, say, set up a permanent pair of teleport circles between their lab and a major metropolis where they like to do their shopping, and another to where their best friend lives, or whatever.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm pretty sure that the existence of high-level spellcasters in sufficient number is one of the basic founding principles of establishing a Tippy-verse style setting. So if you're asking "How can there really be enough high level spellcasters to set up ubiquitous teleportation circles?", the answer is that we're just accepting this to be true as one of the given assumptions of the setting.

[Clistenes]

Weirstones can block teleportation. You can build trade stations where teleportation is possible in highly fortified locations just outside the range of the Weirstones.

You can teleport inside the trade station... but the inside of the trade station is armored with multiple overlapping Walls of Force and Prismatic Walls and the only exit is defended by an army.

[Gusmo]

Isn't one of the principles of the Tippyverse that the 'transport travelers' clause of wish is one the most dangerous things to be prepared for, because it's not explicitly teleportation, and therefore only protections with very broad language are even applicable? And even then, it seemingly bypasses all protections due to the 'regardless of local conditions' language - surely that's not referring to the weather. Given infinite wish-traps producing are a core part of this 'verse, I think any discussion of teleportation circles is probably missing the point entirely.

[Crake]

Wait, no large scale protections against teleportation magic? Did Tippy never hear about weirdstones?

[NigelWalmsley]

If I recall correctly from reading the threads, the notion was that you could Wish your way to the Weirdstone, eliminate it, and then teleport in your dudes.

[Palanan]

Here's the post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12185830&postcount=37) in the original Tippyverse thread where Tippy describes using Wish to circumvent Weirdstones, simply by wishing them away.

Not sure if the defending city couldn't just wish the Weirdstone to be unwishable, or if the wishes would cancel each other out. Dueling wishes sounds like a playground for GM fiat.

[Gusmo]

By RAW stuff like astral projection and ice assassin also have stratospheric abuse potential. Astral projection for item duplication and unlimited wishes, among many other things. Ice assassin for copies of the most powerful being you're able to create, which are then under your absolute command. I figured these are other key things people should be aware of. I don't really have the foundational knowledge to give detailed explanations about putting the pieces of the Tippyverse together - some self-awareness and reflection on the part of others might be prudent in this respect.

[Nifft]

Well, to be fair, Wish could be included in the "many" mentioned above. And a trap of Wish can certainly be dangerous: the Wish only needs to duplicate, say, Horrid Wilting.
That's a valid point. I suppose some usage of wish would be permitted, but not the "create infinite wealth" or other game-breaking uses.


This is the screwy part about both spells, a heal trap could be setup to damage undead. In which case it would in fact be 'damaging' just as a harm trap could be setup to damage living creatures.

As remetagross said the functionality of a wish trap is so varied that it could in fact be dangerous. Magic Trap design is ambiguous enough that heal and wish spells are seemingly permissible. Heal as a trap could only be used if it's dangerous to the PCs. Helpful, danger-free usage is not encompassed by the DMG trap rules.

So if the PCs were all undead, then perhaps heal traps might be viable

But that's a bit niche.


Why wouldn't you be able to create a Heal trap? You can create a Harm trap, and Heal is exactly like Harm except that it targets a different set of creatures. A Fireball trap isn't dangerous to a Red Dragon or Fire Elemental, and it even heals an Iron Golem. But you can definitely make one.

If the PCs in your game are an iron golem and a red dragon, then fireball would not be a valid spell for a magic device to emulate.

Are they?

[Crake]

Here's the post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12185830&postcount=37) in the original Tippyverse thread where Tippy describes using Wish to circumvent Weirdstones, simply by wishing them away.

Not sure if the defending city couldn't just wish the Weirdstone to be unwishable, or if the wishes would cancel each other out. Dueling wishes sounds like a playground for GM fiat.

Except wish doesn't allow you to transport OBJECTS, only creatures, so that's not a viable course of attack, unless you're going with a greater wish statement, which leaves your wording up to the DM's interpretation. You'd have to wish yourself to the weirdstone and destroy/deactivate it yourself, which would then require you to beat any of it's defenses/guards, and a city could have overlapping weirdstones for added redundancies, so I don't think it's that easy to just dismiss it with "wish it away".

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Crake
Except wish doesn't allow you to transport OBJECTS, only creatures, so that's not a viable course of attack…I don't think it's that easy to just dismiss it with "wish it away".

Agreed, but that was Tippy’s justification. A little later in the same thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12185909&postcount=39) he claims that it’s allowed under the “transport travelers” clause—even though the wording, as you point out, is specifically limited to creatures.

[NigelWalmsley]

If the PCs in your game are an iron golem and a red dragon, then fireball would not be a valid spell for a magic device to emulate.

So to be clear, your position is that a Wizard can make a trap that casts Fireball, but not if he's under the effect of Energy Immunity? {Scrubbed} If you don't like the Tippyverse, you can just nerf things that make it possible. Relying on tortured readings of RAW to make it not work just makes things worse for everyone.

[Nifft]

So to be clear, your position is that a Wizard can make a trap that casts Fireball, but not if he's under the effect of Energy Immunity? {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} If you don't like the Tippyverse, you can just nerf things that make it possible. Relying on tortured readings of RAW to make it not work just makes things worse for everyone.

No, your Wizard can't decide what traps can or cannot be made.

The DM is always involved and has final say, and the DMG's guidance is clear -- traps are dangerous.

The DMG also suggests using multiple combination traps, for example a dispel magic + fireball trap would handle your Wizard nicely.

[Fouredged Sword]

Except wish doesn't allow you to transport OBJECTS, only creatures, so that's not a viable course of attack, unless you're going with a greater wish statement, which leaves your wording up to the DM's interpretation. You'd have to wish yourself to the weirdstone and destroy/deactivate it yourself, which would then require you to beat any of it's defenses/guards, and a city could have overlapping weirdstones for added redundancies, so I don't think it's that easy to just dismiss it with "wish it away".

You don't wish YOURSELF to the weirdstone. You wish a mindless creature who is expendable with a giant stack of explosive rune notes and a magic trap that first casts disintegrate and then dispel magic triggered by them being moved and calibrated to always fail the dispel check even on a 20 of the explosive runes. The target location is "Directly touching the weirdstone" and everything in the area takes 6000000d6 force damage. The only substance that can survive that force damage is riverine and riverine is destroyed by the disintegrate.

[Batcathat]

I do agree that it seems hard to justify "traps has to be dangerous" (especially if it's specifically dangerous for the trap creator) from an in-universe point of view. And I feel like the problem is less that someone could make a "trap" that does something beneficial and more that they can game it for infinite stuff.

[NigelWalmsley]

The DM is always involved and has final say, and the DMG's guidance is clear -- traps are dangerous.

If you want to ban it "because DM says so", ban it "because DM says so". Torturing RAW so it was never legal is completely pointless, and just makes your position look weaker. You can create traps of Inflict Light Wounds. There is no earthly reason you would not be able to make traps of Cure Light Wounds (or Heal). Each is dangerous to some creatures and not dangerous to others.

[Nifft]

I do agree that it seems hard to justify "traps has to be dangerous" (especially if it's specifically dangerous for the trap creator) The DMG says traps have to be dangerous to (what is implied to be) the PCs, not the creators.

An NPC red dragon with an NPC iron golem buddy could definitely create a fireball trap, for example.



from an in-universe point of view. And I feel like the problem is less that someone could make a "trap" that does something beneficial and more that they can game it for infinite stuff.
They key thing is that magic traps are magic items, and when you create one you're supposed to model the costs and mechanics on the most similar magic item in the DMG.

Beneficial magic items mostly don't produce unlimited benefits; when they do produce unlimited benefits, they do so at a limited rate, and the benefits are often relatively minor.



If you want to ban it "because DM says so", ban it "because DM says so". That's not an accurate summary of my argument.


You can create traps of Inflict Light Wounds. There is no earthly reason you would not be able to make traps of Cure Light Wounds (or Heal). The earthly reason is that a magical device for casting cure light wounds would be closer in function to the gear found in the treasure section of the DMG, not the trap section.

The DMG guidance for separating traps from other magic items is brief, but fairly clear.

[Batcathat]

They key thing is that magic traps are magic items, and when you create one you're supposed to model the costs and mechanics on the most similar magic item in the DMG.

Beneficial magic items mostly don't produce unlimited benefits; when they do produce unlimited benefits, they do so at a limited rate, and the benefits are often relatively minor.

Sure, that might make sense from a meta point of view but I still think it ends up very weird in-universe. You can create unlimited magical effects but only as long as its harmful? While D&D cosmology allows for some pretty strange rules, that one still seems like a stretch.

And again, I feel like the problem is the unlimited part, rather than the beneficial part.

[noob]

So if the player characters are immune to everything then all the traps are disallowed?

[NigelWalmsley]

The DMG says traps have to be dangerous to (what is implied to be) the PCs, not the creators.

Why is it implied to be the PCs? Why not the creators? Why not some abstract "average person"? Why not the inhabitants of the dungeon? Suppose the party has a living member and an undead member, are both Cure and Inflict traps impossible? What if the undead member is destroyed and replaced by a living person?


That's not an accurate summary of my argument.

That's not an argument at all. If you feel your position has been misunderstood, clarify it.


The earthly reason is that a magical device for casting cure light wounds would be closer in function to the gear found in the treasure section of the DMG, not the trap section.

{Scrubbed} The rules do not operate on the basis of the Law of Similarity. They operate on the basis of rules. And the rules say that traps need to be "dangerous". They do not say "traps need to be more like these examples than the magic items" (which, frankly, would make a Fireball trap illegal, as there are more items than traps that produce fire).

Which, fundamentally, is the issue with this type of argument. Sometimes RAW says things we think are dumb. The appropriate thing to do is to accept that, change the rules, and move on. But for some reason, there's a contingent of people who seem to be convinced that changing the rules is utterly unacceptable, but that if we find some parsing of the rules where our position is actually totally correct, then everything is fine. {Scrubbed} No one is going to use the "traps must be harmful to the specific members of the party" standard in a game, and it's not a better reading of RAW than Tippy's. Stop torturing the rules to get the result you want. Doing that won't fix your game, {Scrubbed}


So if the player characters are immune to everything then all the traps are disallowed?

{Scrubbed}

IME, no one is willing to bite the bullet on the implication of these kinds of arguments, they just add more and more layers to the gloss (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloss_(annotation)#In_law) until everyone else wanders off.

[Nifft]

Sure, that might make sense from a meta point of view but I still think it ends up very weird in-universe. You can create unlimited magical effects but only as long as its harmful? While D&D cosmology allows for some pretty strange rules, that one still seems like a stretch. Extrapolating what the in-universe reasoning would be is a rather different matter.

Unlike most rules for players, the guidelines for the DM's toolbox of challenge-building are intentionally open-ended.

Are magical traps powered by bound fiends and wicked ghosts which only evoke the power of their immortal malice when it hurts? Not in my games, but it's reasonable, and it's even reasonable that the sort of NPC who wants to make nasty violated fell drain fireball traps in the first place would condemn other beings to eternally power the effect.


And again, I feel like the problem is the unlimited part, rather than the beneficial part. Presumably the reset rules are there to create interesting situations, but I would agree that removing the "unlimited" portion seems reasonable.


So if the player characters are immune to everything then all the traps are disallowed?
If your PCs are immune to everything, are you even playing?

But sure, without any possible danger conditions, the wise DM would simply not waste time rolling for a trap to hit or damage -- every "trap" would become mere dungeon dressing, not a mechanical thing that interacts with the PCs.

If your PCs are immune to everything, then the trap rules should not be used against them.



Why is it implied to be the PCs? Who do you think is in the dungeon?



{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} The rules do not operate on the basis of the Law of Similarity.
DMG, p.282:

https://i.imgur.com/XzOeJh6.png


Magical traps are magic items.

This similarity you're trying to mock is exactly how you price new magic items.

[NigelWalmsley]

Who do you think is in the dungeon?

Do your PCs often go into dungeons that contain only traps?


This similarity you're trying to mock is exactly how you price new magic items.

Which is not the argument. The argument is "can you make a trap of Heal". If you want to argue about cost, you have already lost the argument we are actually having. And arguing about cost is pointless too, because RAW lets you make unlimited amounts of money. Who cares if a trap of Heal costs 10 or 10 thousand or 10 million GP? I'll just have a bound Efreet Wish for it, which is absolutely free for everyone involved.

[Melcar]

So I was recently reading through the much vaunted Tippyverse thread when I noticed a rather egregious problem:


How can this be? TP Circle is only 5 ft big, and takes a long time to set up. Mass teleport is difficult and not enough for armies. Also, why do the high level wizards not just rebel and destroy the world or something? How "common" are class levels?

I would assume in tippeverse that mass Halaster's Teleport Cage are in effect everywhere to nullify mass teleportations of armies! Right?

[NotInventedHere]

The Tippyverse thread never really goes into the deep implications of its interpretation of the "traps" rules, probably because it would quickly become obvious how ridiculous it is. Taking the trap rules as permitting any kind of arbitrary beneficial effect makes 90% of the game's magical items completely pointless.

Take one of the real classics, a staple of real-world myths and fantasy books alike, the ring of invisibility. A simple and elegant item, powerful but useful. Costs 20,000gp. Alternatively, make a small, ring-shaped trap, with a touch trigger. It casts invisibility on the creature touching it, with an automatic reset every turn. This doesn't use an item slot, doesn't take up an action to activate, and costs 3,000gp. Or just consider a magic weapon. 2,000gp for a +1 weapon, or 500gp for a little metal plate sewn into your clothing that casts magic weapon, and another 500gp for one that casts true strike every turn to give you a +20 insight bonus to your attack? If that's not enough to get your target, just pay 3,000gp for a trap that casts wraithstrike on you every single round, and make all your melee attacks as touch attacks. No need to ever worry about failing a skill check either. Unlimited castings of Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) has you covered.

Basically, the magic item economy, the *action* economy, and the game's general maths just evaporate into thin air as soon as you take the Tippy view of what a "trap" can do. (Which I guess should have been obvious from the moment that "Wish traps let everyone in the world have completely unlimited numbers of Wishes all the time" became a thing, but eh.)

[Nifft]

Do your PCs often go into dungeons that contain only traps? Traps are honestly kinda garbage.


Which is not the argument. The argument is "can you make a trap of Heal".
... which, as I've explained, boils down to:

Player: "Does my proposed custom magic item of heal fit best under the trap rules?"

DM: "Not the trap rules, no."

[Darg]

If resetting magic traps are a thing, why not set up resetting greater glyphs of warding that contain a maximized and empowered geas/quest with the goal of living without the intent of committing physical violence or property damage while within the territory? Kind isn't defined so you can specify that your own citizens wouldn't be affected. Bad people are adversely affected while good natured visitors don't have to worry about it. Should also help with the teleported army scenario as as they end up harmless upon coming out the other side because they'll be dead otherwise.

[Nifft]

If resetting magic traps are a thing, why not set up resetting greater glyphs of warding

You're conflating spell traps with magic device traps.

The former is a spell which uses the trap rules for disarming and detection; the latter is a magic item which can auto-reset.

[NigelWalmsley]

The Tippyverse thread never really goes into the deep implications of its interpretation of the "traps" rules, probably because it would quickly become obvious how ridiculous it is. Taking the trap rules as permitting any kind of arbitrary beneficial effect makes 90% of the game's magical items completely pointless.

Well, sure, but "that would be dumb" isn't really an argument that something isn't RAW. Lots of dumb things are RAW (e.g. the sets "things that cast Planar Binding" and "things you can summon with Planar Binding" are not disjoint). Also, as noted previously, the cost argument is pointless when you can also break WBL.

Like, I have no problem with thinking the Tippyverse is a bad or uninteresting or unfun setting. I don't particularly like it myself. But the whole thing where people seem to think the only objection you can have to it is that some part of its RAW doesn't work is just so goddamn bizarre.

{{scrubbed}}

[Nifft]

Like, I have no problem with thinking the Tippyverse is a bad or uninteresting or unfun setting. I don't particularly like it myself. But the whole thing where people seem to think the only objection you can have to it is that some part of its RAW doesn't work is just so goddamn bizarre. I have nothing against the Tippyverse, but it's not RAW.


{{Scrubbed}} By being insulting and dismissive, you're not actually disproving any of my arguments. You're not even engaging with my arguments.


Magic device traps are magic items, per RAW.

There are rules for magic items, and the only way you'd get to use the trap rules instead of the regular magic item rules is if you can convince your DM that the magic item you want to make is a better fit for the trap rules.

There are very few positive criteria for using the trap rules, and the primary one is the one I started with -- traps are dangerous.

If you can't even meet that standard, there's no way you should be able to convince a DM to let you use the trap rules rather than the magic item rules.

[liquidformat]

No, your Wizard can't decide what traps can or cannot be made.

The DM is always involved and has final say, and the DMG's guidance is clear -- traps are dangerous.

The DMG also suggests using multiple combination traps, for example a dispel magic + fireball trap would handle your Wizard nicely.

The issue is your argument is not RAW and it is a rather twisted interpretation of RAI to the point of disfunction. By RAW any 'harmful' trap can be made, it doesn't have to be harmful to everyone just harmful to someone. By that logic someone say designing a temple to keep undead out can make traps of cure wounds/heal, or someone trying to trap evil outsiders could make a trap the activates a magical circle against evil when stepped on.

Because these can be made by RAW they can also be abused by RAW to be used in ways not intended in a gaming world. Sure your DM can say no we don't have any of those types of traps in this setting and that is fine but it isn't RAW or RAI it is just DM FIAT.

[MultitudeMan]

I have nothing against the Tippyverse, but it's not RAW.

I feel like a key point being missed in this whole discussion is that the Tippyverse is literally a setting designed by Tippy, in which he is the GM. He's the one who ruled that you can have traps of Create Food and Water, he's the one who ruled that the gods were largely inactive, he's the one who ruled that Teleportation Circles didn't split movement. Questions of RAW are kinda moot; he already admitted to various house-rules. It's just an interesting thought-experiment in what permanent teleportation links would eventually do to a D&D world.

[Nifft]

The issue is your argument is not RAW and it is a rather twisted interpretation of RAI to the point of disfunction. By RAW any 'harmful' trap can be made, it doesn't have to be harmful to everyone just harmful to someone. By that logic someone say designing a temple to keep undead out can make traps of cure wounds/heal, or someone trying to trap evil outsiders could make a trap the activates a magical circle against evil when stepped on.

Because these can be made by RAW they can also be abused by RAW to be used in ways not intended in a gaming world. Sure your DM can say no we don't have any of those types of traps in this setting and that is fine but it isn't RAW or RAI it is just DM FIAT.

RAI indication is that traps have more rules around getting the correct CR rather than anything related to GP cost. They exist to challenge PCs, and if they're not a challenge to your PCs then you're not using them as intended.

RAW magic device traps are magic items, and the primary rule for magic items would be used for un-trap-like magic items. What's un-trap-like? See RAI above.

Trying to circumvent the regular magic item guidelines via traps would require DM fiat, which is in fact the foundation of the Tippyverse. (Nothing wrong with the Tippyverse, of course, but it's not RAW.)


I feel like a key point being missed in this whole discussion is that the Tippyverse is literally a setting designed by Tippy, in which he is the GM. He's the one who ruled that you can have traps of Create Food and Water, he's the one who ruled that the gods were largely inactive, he's the one who ruled that Teleportation Circles didn't split movement. Questions of RAW are kinda moot; he already admitted to various house-rules. It's just an interesting thought-experiment in what permanent teleportation links would eventually do to a D&D world.

Yeah, and as such it's interesting.

But it's not RAW, and that seems to be a point under contention.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Melcar
I would assume in tippeverse that mass Halaster's Teleport Cage are in effect everywhere to nullify mass teleportations of armies! Right?

Just to follow up on this, I think the assumption is that permanent teleport circles are necessary for intercity trade, so hampering them would cripple the cities’ economies.

…Or something along those lines. Halaster’s Teleport Cage has been brought up in some Tippy threads, but I don’t know if he ever explicitly addressed it.


Originally Posted by Multitude Man
I feel like a key point being missed in this whole discussion is that the Tippyverse is literally a setting designed by Tippy, in which he is the GM.


Originally Posted by Nifft
But it's not RAW, and that seems to be a point under contention.

More than this—there seems to be a frequent assumption that any game world with advanced magic, if left to run long enough, will inevitably become a Tippyverse setting.

I’m not advocating this point by any means, but in recent years that seems to have become a default assumption.

[Nifft]

More than this—there seems to be a frequent assumption that any game world with advanced magic, if left to run long enough, will inevitably become a Tippyverse setting.

I’m not advocating this point by any means, but in recent years that seems to have become a default assumption.

Indeed, and it's gotten to the point where some Tippy-isms -- like his traps thing -- have been conflated with RAW.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

I think a thing to remember is that the cities are the equilibrium state, and TC doesn’t really threaten them (without a lot of TCs). But TC makes it trivially easy to raid/destroy specific points in a pre-teleport place. If a salt mine is producing a third of a kingdoms treasury, raiding and destroying it makes the entire kingdom vulnerable to attack, and if a ruler can’t protect it, they’re not going to get workers to reopen the mine or be able to fund soldiers, etc. if I remember the premise right, basically a bunch of kingdoms consolidated into the cities because it was the only way to ensure you as a ruler can protect your subjects.

[liquidformat]

RAI indication is that traps have more rules around getting the correct CR rather than anything related to GP cost. They exist to challenge PCs, and if they're not a challenge to your PCs then you're not using them as intended.

RAW magic device traps are magic items, and the primary rule for magic items would be used for un-trap-like magic items. What's un-trap-like? See RAI above.

Trying to circumvent the regular magic item guidelines via traps would require DM fiat, which is in fact the foundation of the Tippyverse. (Nothing wrong with the Tippyverse, of course, but it's not RAW.)

At best your argument is no more RAI than Tippy's interpretation. You saying that a cure wounds trap is only acceptable as a if the players are undead is just as acceptable as the Tippy interpretation that cure wounds is always fine for a trap because it gets a check mark in the harmful category. Your whole argument hinges on DM's interpretation of the rules makes it RAI therefore Tippy as a DM is on just as solid RAI ground...

At the same time I don't think it is RAI or RAW, by both RAW and RAI cure wounds is a perfectly acceptable trap geared towards undead, period end of story. Saying that well its fine to create a magic item that is RAW/RAI if you are specifically trying to use it on an undead but it isn't fine if you use it for any other purpose isn't RAW or RAI it is DM FIAT.

[NotInventedHere]

More than this—there seems to be a frequent assumption that any game world with advanced magic, if left to run long enough, will inevitably become a Tippyverse setting.

I’m not advocating this point by any means, but in recent years that seems to have become a default assumption.

I'm not sure it's a default assumption as such, but the reason I compared Tippyverse to Pun-Pun up above is partly that there's definitely a tendency from certain corners towards dismissing other people's interesting settings by throwing the Tippyverse at them, in the same way that some people dismiss others' interesting builds by going 'Yeah but why bother, its numbers aren't as good as Pun-Pun', or how you get Magic players going 'It dies to removal' when someone else is excited about a card. The whole performative apathy thing that infects certain parts of nerd culture.

[Nifft]

At best your argument is no more RAI than Tippy's interpretation. You saying that a cure wounds trap is only acceptable as a if the players are undead is just as acceptable as the Tippy interpretation that cure wounds is always fine for a trap because it gets a check mark in the harmful category. Your whole argument hinges on DM's interpretation of the rules makes it RAI therefore Tippy as a DM is on just as solid RAI ground...

At the same time I don't think it is RAI or RAW, by both RAW and RAI cure wounds is a perfectly acceptable trap geared towards undead, period end of story. Saying that well its fine to create a magic item that is RAW/RAI if you are specifically trying to use it on an undead but it isn't fine if you use it for any other purpose isn't RAW or RAI it is DM FIAT.

New traps always require the DM to create them, with or without the involvement of a player. That's explicit in the rules.

My argument is that a magic device trap, which is a magic item, does not get to bypass the normal magic item constraints just because a player decided it would be more profitable to use the trap rules.

[liquidformat]

New traps always require the DM to create them, with or without the involvement of a player. That's explicit in the rules.

My argument is that a magic device trap, which is a magic item, does not get to bypass the normal magic item constraints just because a player decided it would be more profitable to use the trap rules.

That is fine but we are not talking about a player when we are talking about Tippyverse we are talking about a DM and that is where and why your argument falls apart.

[Nifft]

That is fine but we are not talking about a player when we are talking about Tippyverse we are talking about a DM and that is where and why your argument falls apart.

We're talking about Tippyverse being different from RAW.

If the books suggests working with your DM to change the rules, that's great for you and your DM, but whatever you come up with is not RAW.

That's the case here.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Nifft
Indeed, and it's gotten to the point where some Tippy-isms -- like his traps thing -- have been conflated with RAW.

Exactly this.


Originally Posted by NotInventedHere
I'm not sure it's a default assumption as such….

Not universally, but it’s often thrown about as a casual fact that Tippyverse is the ultimate endpoint of any setting, assuming no outside interference. It’s less often acknowledged that the Tippyverse relies on a lot of houserules, blurry readings, and “it doesn’t specifically say we can’t, so we can” logic.


Originally Posted by NotInventedHere
…there's definitely a tendency from certain corners towards dismissing other people's interesting settings by throwing the Tippyverse at them….

This is absolutely true. There’s also the broader assumption that magic will cause all settings to inevitably become post-scarcity, when this assumption either relies on dubious aspects of the Tippyverse or some poorly written items.

[liquidformat]

We're talking about Tippyverse being different from RAW.

If the books suggests working with your DM to change the rules, that's great for you and your DM, but whatever you come up with is not RAW.

That's the case here.

Its no less RAW/RAI than you saying cure wounds traps should only exist in games where all PCs are undead, I am not seeing a meaningful difference. Strongholder builders and other sources already allow players to create and use magical traps. And cure light wounds can reasonably be considered a 'harmful' spell to undead therefore it seems permissible for a magical trap. If your gripe is the pricing of it that is something you as the DM can and should workout with your players.

[Nifft]

Its no less RAW/RAI than you saying cure wounds traps should only exist in games where all PCs are undead, I am not seeing a meaningful difference. Strongholder builders and other sources already allow players to create and use magical traps. And cure light wounds can reasonably be considered a 'harmful' spell to undead therefore it seems permissible for a magical trap. If your gripe is the pricing of it that is something you as the DM can and should workout with your players.

No, and here's the super-important thing which I might not have been clear enough about:


Traps exist only in reference to the PCs, because traps (especially magical device traps) are hand-wavey conventions for the convenience of the DM, and are not laws of physics.

Magic items of cure light wounds exist whether the PCs are alive or undead (or neither, such as constructs).

Magic items of cure light wounds only should be used under the traps mechanics if they represent a danger to the PCs.

[liquidformat]

No, and here's the super-important thing which I might not have been clear enough about:


Traps exist only in reference to the PCs, because traps (especially magical device traps) are hand-wavey conventions for the convenience of the DM, and are not laws of physics.

Magic items of cure light wounds exist whether the PCs are alive or undead (or neither, such as constructs).

Magic items of cure light wounds only should be used under the traps mechanics if they represent a danger to the PCs.

I am not seeing your argument, we have rules on trap creation that fall in line with general item creation rules just fine. There is no 'hand-wavey' conventions there. If you don't think the pricing of traps is correct I am fine with that and whole heartedly agree there are plenty of examples that are way over priced and I am sure there are plenty that are way under priced. However, the rules are there and in fact with stronghold builder and I think DMG2 as well as else where PCs are given permission to create traps. Frankly the more we go back and forth the less RAI I am seeing on your side of this argument.

[NotInventedHere]

I am not seeing your argument, we have rules on trap creation that fall in line with general item creation rules just fine.

I don't think we do have rules on trap creation that fall in line with general item creation rules. Like the examples I raised above, the trap creation rules in general make utter nonsense of the general item creation rules. There's a whole section in the back of the DMG on how to price item bonuses and continuous spells and different pricings based on spells with durations in rounds, minutes and hours. If the trap creation rules are allowed to be treated as generic item creation rules, that entire section becomes pointless.

[NigelWalmsley]

There are rules for magic items, and the only way you'd get to use the trap rules instead of the regular magic item rules is if you can convince your DM that the magic item you want to make is a better fit for the trap rules.

That is false. You use the trap rules by using the trap rules. Your DM can stop you by ruling they don't apply, but once he does we've left the realm of RAW.


There are very few positive criteria for using the trap rules, and the primary one is the one I started with -- traps are dangerous.

And the Heal trap is dangerous. The rule you are citing does not say what you want. That line does not require that traps be dangerous "to PCs". It just doesn't do that. And even if we accept that it somehow does mean that, despite not saying it, the result is an interpretation of the rules that is even worse than what we were trying to avoid. This ruling makes the game worse in order to solve a problem by appealing to "DM says no". Guess what? You can just appeal to "DM says no" directly! Or, better yet, change the damn rules so they don't do dumb stuff.


I am not seeing your argument

That's because it's not a RAW argument. The argument is, very explicitly, that as a DM you should not allow this. That's not a RAW argument. Never has been, never will be. The issue is that, like so many people, he is unwilling to step from "this is what the rules do say" to "this is what the rules should say", and so we get this tottering tower of interpretation that results in absolutely absurd conclusions (e.g. the 100% RAW Inflict Light Wounds trap in the DMG is actually illegal if everyone in your party took Tomb-Tainted Soul).


I don't think we do have rules on trap creation that fall in line with general item creation rules. Like the examples I raised above, the trap creation rules in general make utter nonsense of the general item creation rules. There's a whole section in the back of the DMG on how to price item bonuses and continuous spells and different pricings based on spells with durations in rounds, minutes and hours. If the trap creation rules are allowed to be treated as generic item creation rules, that entire section becomes pointless.

So does using Planar Binding to bind an Efreet and using Wish to make magic items. That doesn't make it not RAW, it just makes RAW dumb. Is "the exact written rules of D&D might not be totally ideal" really inconceivable at this point?

[Destro2119]

Ca we get back to the main point? Namely how teleport becomes enough of a threat at all to warrant the weirdstones and all that other stuff?

I know "spellcaster availability" plays into it, but if your solution is to make everyone a wizard 20 then that is not a good enough reason.

[NotInventedHere]

Ca we get back to the main point? Namely how teleport becomes enough of a threat at all to warrant the weirdstones and all that other stuff?

I know "spellcaster availability" plays into it, but if your solution is to make everyone a wizard 20 then that is not a good enough reason.

Well, you don't need a *lot* of wizard 20s, really. Just one 9th-level spellcaster per major, geopolitically influential nation, and you've got the ability to drop a major strike-force onto any part of the opposing nation that you have a good enough description of. Teleportation circle lasts 10 minutes per caster level, so that's 170 minutes at a bare minimum, or 1700 rounds. Even assuming that you have to move into and end your turn in the circle, the 5ft radius (not diameter) of the circle means you can move 4 people per round per circle, or 6,800-8,000 people. That's not enough to *hold* a position against the entire enemy army, but it's enough to wreck up any undefended mine, academy, factory, etc. And the Tippyverse also comes with the assumption that you can move people through a teleportation circle much, much faster than 4 people per round.

[Nifft]

That is false. You use the trap rules by using the trap rules. Your DM can stop you by ruling they don't apply, but once he does we've left the realm of RAW. I think this may be the core of the issue.

You want to spring traps on your DM, and that's the reverse of how the game works.

You don't go to the trap rules and hope your DM doesn't stop you. The rules say that the DM takes you through the process, if the DM wants to do so. Nothing else permits player access.

https://i.imgur.com/fB3E9t5.png



And the Heal trap is dangerous. The rule you are citing does not say what you want. That line does not require that traps be dangerous "to PCs".
If you think the contents of the DMG are intended to create obstacles for NPCs who never get screen time, you're playing a very different game than I've ever seen.


That's because it's not a RAW argument. The argument is, very explicitly, that as a DM you should not allow this. That's not a RAW argument. Never has been, never will be. The issue is that, like so many people, he is unwilling to step from "this is what the rules do say" to "this is what the rules should say", and so we get this tottering tower of interpretation that results in absolutely absurd conclusions (e.g. the 100% RAW Inflict Light Wounds trap in the DMG is actually illegal if everyone in your party took Tomb-Tainted Soul). Are you aware that Tomb-Tainted Soul wasn't around when the DMG's list was published?

Using only core rules, the DMG's list seems correct.

Anyway, you're wrong: it is a RAW argument.

[Morcleon]

Ca we get back to the main point? Namely how teleport becomes enough of a threat at all to warrant the weirdstones and all that other stuff?

Standard action: Teleport into a major populated area.
Swift action: Cast any wide area spell that can cause a great deal of damage, whether in terms of life or property. Earthquake is a classic if you're in a city.
Free action: Speak your trigger word for your Contingency (teleport) to leave the area.

In a single round, you've managed to become a threat to any sort of population center. I'm sure there's more efficient and/or sneakier ways to cause chaos and destruction, but this is the sort of proof of concept to show the need for anti-teleport defenses.

[NigelWalmsley]

If you think the contents of the DMG are intended to create obstacles for NPCs who never get screen time, you're playing a very different game than I've ever seen.

I think that intent is irrelevant to questions of what the rules as written do or do not say. The fact that you apparently don't means it is no longer worth having this argument with you, since you are plainly using terms in ways that are not simply non-standard, but actively contradictory to their common usage.


Using only core rules, the DMG's list seems correct.

Yes, because Core contains no ways to have (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), undead (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) PCs (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm). In future, I suggest that you check yourself before wrecking yourself.

[BioCharge]

So, sorry, I don't have much to add to the main discussion, but seeing the debate on non-harmful traps, I just wanted to point out: Dungeonscape Boon traps. It even has a "trap" of heal. Just requires the beneficiary to be marked with Arcane Mark. I wouldn't find it unreasonable to have some other identifyer, such as Detect Evil in an evil temple so it casts on the evil cultists (or even any Evil PCs!).

Sorry if this has been mentioned and sorry for having nothing for Destro's main question. I'm not very familiar with the Tippyverse.

[Destro2119]

Well, you don't need a *lot* of wizard 20s, really. Just one 9th-level spellcaster per major, geopolitically influential nation, and you've got the ability to drop a major strike-force onto any part of the opposing nation that you have a good enough description of. Teleportation circle lasts 10 minutes per caster level, so that's 170 minutes at a bare minimum, or 1700 rounds. Even assuming that you have to move into and end your turn in the circle, the 5ft radius (not diameter) of the circle means you can move 4 people per round per circle, or 6,800-8,000 people. That's not enough to *hold* a position against the entire enemy army, but it's enough to wreck up any undefended mine, academy, factory, etc. And the Tippyverse also comes with the assumption that you can move people through a teleportation circle much, much faster than 4 people per round.

"much, much faster than 4 people per round."

Clarify this?

Also, is one wizard really enough to be a threat? If so, explain how.

[icefractal]

Ca we get back to the main point? Namely how teleport becomes enough of a threat at all to warrant the weirdstones and all that other stuff?This has been discussed, in this thread. Key points:

1) Long casting time of Teleportation Circle doesn't matter, since it's not detectable at the target location so you can do it in advance. Sufficient divinations can forsee this, but they can forsee any other type of attack as well.

2) "teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot" - this indicates it happens each time someone moves there, AFAICT. Which produces a fairly high through-put: move to circle, ready action to move off circle after teleporting, that's as many troops as can fit within a move-action of the circle each round.

3) That's not a huge amount of troop through-put, but if it's not enough to cause major problems for your target when done in multiple locations by surprise, then you should be using better troops.

The big problem is that this requires actually having a high-level caster stick around. Whereas permanent Teleportation Circles for trade only requires that they visit your city once.


Re: Traps -
I'm pretty confused by this argument.
1) Not RAW, because traps are up to the GM, and depend on who the PCs are.
2) Tippy is the GM, and this is world-building so there are no specific "PCs"
3) That doesn't count, for some reason?

Also if you replace "traps" with "non-trap magic items" that just makes the price higher. And (IMO) expensive civic architecture that could be targeted by saboteurs is more interesting for world-building than the fully-RAW alternative - using cost-avoidance techniques to simply poof everything into existence.

[Destro2119]

I'm seeing a lot of good arguments, but they are somewhat scattered.

So could someone put down a definitive summary of the mechanical/assumed reasons why Teleportation is a major threat?

[icefractal]

I'm seeing a lot of good arguments, but they are somewhat scattered.

So, could someone put down a definitive summary of the mechanical/assumed reasons why Teleportation is a major threat, again?How about the summary I put in the post just above this one?

If you don't feel like that explains it, please explain why.

[Destro2119]

How about the summary I put in the post just above this one?

If you don't feel like that explains it, please explain why.

Because in your own post you admit that troop output is low and the fact that it needs a high level spellcaster is a weakness.

If I am misinterpreting this, please explain why, and explain why teleportation is thus an actual threat.

[icefractal]

I mean, define "actual threat".

It's relatively low, but if those troops are at all powerful, then that's still a dangerous amount of offense suddenly showing up inside your territory. And that's assuming it's quickly intercepted. The spell has a good duration and the though-put is per-round, so if nobody notices your troops massing for the first 15 minutes, you have a lot of troops there.

Threat to an omni-surveilled city that can teleport in troops as good or better within a round or two? Not much of one.

Threat to a fairly dense city with its own troops of comparable strength ready to spring into action? Not crushing, but not trivial either, the equivalent of a major terrorist attack.

Threat to a kingdom where it will take a messenger half a day to announce the threat, and the nearest garrison another half day to send troops there? Huge.


As far as needing a caster, how much this limits the tactic depends on how rare those are. Anti-teleportation defenses are limited by the same thing (available casters), so in a way the relative threat level remains constant.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Destro2119
"much, much faster than 4 people per round."

Clarify this?

According to this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12185494&postcount=30) in the original Tippyverse thread, Tippy claims that 960 people per round can transit a teleport circle if they run through in all four directions.

From this, he extrapolates an army can go through in a minute or so. There are some practical issues never really addressed with this, but this seems to be the basis of Tippy's estimates.

[Melcar]

Well, you don't need a *lot* of wizard 20s, really. Just one 9th-level spellcaster per major, geopolitically influential nation, and you've got the ability to drop a major strike-force onto any part of the opposing nation that you have a good enough description of. Teleportation circle lasts 10 minutes per caster level, so that's 170 minutes at a bare minimum, or 1700 rounds. Even assuming that you have to move into and end your turn in the circle, the 5ft radius (not diameter) of the circle means you can move 4 people per round per circle, or 6,800-8,000 people. That's not enough to *hold* a position against the entire enemy army, but it's enough to wreck up any undefended mine, academy, factory, etc. And the Tippyverse also comes with the assumption that you can move people through a teleportation circle much, much faster than 4 people per round.

Tippy forgets thats his entire planet would be covered in Halaster’s Teleportation Cage... if his scenario would play out!

[Destro2119]

According to this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12185494&postcount=30) in the original Tippyverse thread, Tippy claims that 960 people per round can transit a teleport circle if they run through in all four directions.

From this, he extrapolates an army can go through in a minute or so. There are some practical issues never really addressed with this, but this seems to be the basis of Tippy's estimates.

I mean, yeah, I at least can definitely see how it would work practically speaking for the whole movement thing.

What I am confused about is how teleportation circle's exit point is decided, and whether it is potent enough to, again, even warrant any of Halaster's TP Cage/weirdstone defenses and what have you.

You have any insights on this?

[Destro2119]

I mean, define "actual threat".

It's relatively low, but if those troops are at all powerful, then that's still a dangerous amount of offense suddenly showing up inside your territory. And that's assuming it's quickly intercepted. The spell has a good duration and the though-put is per-round, so if nobody notices your troops massing for the first 15 minutes, you have a lot of troops there.

Threat to an omni-surveilled city that can teleport in troops as good or better within a round or two? Not much of one.

Threat to a fairly dense city with its own troops of comparable strength ready to spring into action? Not crushing, but not trivial either, the equivalent of a major terrorist attack.

Threat to a kingdom where it will take a messenger half a day to announce the threat, and the nearest garrison another half day to send troops there? Huge.


As far as needing a caster, how much this limits the tactic depends on how rare those are. Anti-teleportation defenses are limited by the same thing (available casters), so in a way the relative threat level remains constant.

Can you explain how the TP circles can even target inside of a city?

Also, what is your opinion on spell traps/spell clocks of greater teleport?

[JNAProductions]

I mean, yeah, I at least can definitely see how it would work practically speaking for the whole movement thing.

What I am confused about is how teleportation circle's exit point is decided, and whether it is potent enough to, again, even warrant any of Halaster's TP Cage/weirdstone defenses and what have you.

You have any insights on this?

It functions like Greater Teleport (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm).

[liquidformat]

According to this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12185494&postcount=30) in the original Tippyverse thread, Tippy claims that 960 people per round can transit a teleport circle if they run through in all four directions.

From this, he extrapolates an army can go through in a minute or so. There are some practical issues never really addressed with this, but this seems to be the basis of Tippy's estimates.

I am not sure if this is correct, if you instantaneously teleport when you move onto the circle than it should be though the spell isn't entirely clear on that.


I mean, yeah, I at least can definitely see how it would work practically speaking for the whole movement thing.

What I am confused about is how teleportation circle's exit point is decided, and whether it is potent enough to, again, even warrant any of Halaster's TP Cage/weirdstone defenses and what have you.

You have any insights on this?

I mean this isn't the only trick that can be pulled, as stated above, as a high level caster you can also teleport in drop a nasty spell like earthquake and then teleport out.

Alternatively for a high level caster who has abusively boosted their caster level they could for example use wish to transport a number of Balor demons equal to your CL (so 20+) into the city to cause chaos and havoc. Heck you are pretty likely to get them to agree to it if you talk to them before hand so you don't even have to worry about SR or saves and can just send them in...

There are a lot of ways a caster with level 9 spells can destroy a city not to mention someone with epic casting. It is easily more than enough of a threat to have safeguards put in place. and multiples at that.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Destro2119
What I am confused about is how teleportation circle's exit point is decided….

The caster selects the exit point as part of the casting procedure. The caster needs to have been to the exit point or have a clear description of it. This means that either the caster himself needs to be familiar with the drop zone in the target city, or receive a detailed description from someone else who scouted the location.


Originally Posted by liquidformat
I am not sure if this is correct, if you instantaneously teleport when you move onto the circle than it should be though the spell isn't entirely clear on that.

I make no claims about the accuracy of Tippy’s reading. Just providing the post where he presents his math.

[KillianHawkeye]

and the fact that it needs a high level spellcaster is a weakness.

Needing a high level spellcaster isn't a weakness when having high level spellcasters is assumed to be true by the setting.

[liquidformat]

The caster selects the exit point as part of the casting procedure. The caster needs to have been to the exit point or have a clear description of it. This means that either the caster himself needs to be familiar with the drop zone in the target city, or receive a detailed description from someone else who scouted the location.



I make no claims about the accuracy of Tippy’s reading. Just providing the post where he presents his math.
True, its all interesting. I don't really prescribe to Tippyverse but I find it interesting. I think the logic behind how things progress is in question as much as the rules abuse inside Tippyverse but its still an interesting concept.


Are you aware that Tomb-Tainted Soul wasn't around when the DMG's list was published?

Using only core rules, the DMG's list seems correct.

Anyway, you're wrong: it is a RAW argument.

Saying the DM can decide what to allow and what not to allow outside of the PBH is is RAW; however, making that decision is up to DM fiat. Saying only traps that are 'harmful' to the pcs may exist, is in no way RAW or RAI and can end up extremely dysfunctional since it isn't internally consistent and 'what is harmful to pcs' can change even within a campaign. For example dropping a number of inflict traps into a low level dungeon then your pcs later become undead so they go back to the dungeon to collect said traps breaks your whole logic and you are left with fuzzy handwaving as a dm since you just broke your own system...

[NotInventedHere]

What I am confused about is how teleportation circle's exit point is decided,


Can you explain how the TP circles can even target inside of a city?


You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot.

It functions as greater teleport, so:


you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting (such as a detailed description from someone else or a particularly precise map).

[Destro2119]

Needing a high level spellcaster isn't a weakness when having high level spellcasters is assumed to be true by the setting.

Yes, but how many? Again, if it everybody needs to be a wizard 20 then the setting cannot function under Tippy's proposed premise.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Destro2119
Yes, but how many? Again, if it everybody needs to be a wizard 20 then the setting cannot function under Tippy's proposed premise.

I don't think that's one of Tippy's assumptions. It's not that everyone is a Wizard 20, just that there is the expected number of high-level casters based on the DMG tables.

[NotInventedHere]

Yes, but how many? Again, if it everybody needs to be a wizard 20 then the setting cannot function under Tippy's proposed premise.

Well, suppose you've got a Cold War kind of situation with two big superpowers, you'd need two 17th+ level wizards over the entire world.

Or let's consider a more medieval geopolitical setup. The big world empires around the 1200-1300 period, what we generally think of as the High Middle Ages, the classic knights-and-castles era, are the Mongol Empire (shifting over to the Yuan Dynasty over the course of this period, but let's consider the two together for now), the Holy Roman Empire, the Mali Empire, the Byzantine Empire, and the Abyssinian/Ethiopian Empire. (There's also the beginnings of the Ottoman Empire and the slowly-coalescing group of city-states that will become the Aztecs in a century or two, but let's not worry about them.) So that's 5 major powers. 5 high-level wizards, across the entire world, suffices to at the very least allow these powers to clash and threaten one another. Does 5 seem like too high a number for the world population of 9th-level arcane casters?

[Melcar]

Yes, but how many? Again, if it everybody needs to be a wizard 20 then the setting cannot function under Tippy's proposed premise.

You really only need one... the rest is using scrolls and UMD to achieve said thing... You think its only level 17+ spellcasters who can cast level 9 spells... how about every commoner in the land... there is a level 2 spells that grants +20 to a skill, plus items, skill focus etc... casting level 9 spells is so mundane that every commoner is doing it...

[liquidformat]

You really only need one... the rest is using scrolls and UMD to achieve said thing... You think its only level 17+ spellcasters who can cast level 9 spells... how about every commoner in the land... there is a level 2 spells that grants +20 to a skill, plus items, skill focus etc... casting level 9 spells is so mundane that every commoner is doing it...

Which highlights another issue of the game to be abused... I think there are also some tricks that allow a level 1 wizard to cast 9th level spells but I don't remember the specifics...

[Melcar]

Which highlights another issue of the game to be abused... I think there are also some tricks that allow a level 1 wizard to cast 9th level spells but I don't remember the specifics...

Indeed, that would a sufficiently high UMD check... specifically DC37, which most level 1s can do, by help of buff spells, items and build!

[JNAProductions]

Indeed, that would a sufficiently high UMD check... specifically DC37, which most level 1s can do, by help of buff spells, items and build!

I actually think they're talking about Elven Generalist Domain Wizard leapfrogging.

There's a LOT you can do in 3.5 to break the game.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Melcar
…there is a level 2 spells that grants +20 to a skill….

Which one is this?


Originally Posted by liquidformat
Which highlights another issue of the game to be abused... I think there are also some tricks that allow a level 1 wizard to cast 9th level spells but I don't remember the specifics...

The question is what proportion of possible tricks and abuse are available in any given setting.

We’ve seen one vision of what happens when a lot of dubious readings are taken as inevitable for the progression of a particular setting. It’s one possible endpoint, but not the only possible endpoint, despite what Tippy sometimes claimed.

Has anyone ever defined the various extremes possible, just sketching out the conceptual space of possible settings? Tippyverse is one extreme, reached through a series of permissive rules assumptions; but what other potential extremes are out there?

[JNAProductions]

Which one is this?

Guidance of the Avatar

[NotInventedHere]

Which one is this?


Guidance of the Avatar

For ref, it's a Web Enhancement spell: Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)

[Destro2119]

You really only need one... the rest is using scrolls and UMD to achieve said thing... You think its only level 17+ spellcasters who can cast level 9 spells... how about every commoner in the land... there is a level 2 spells that grants +20 to a skill, plus items, skill focus etc... casting level 9 spells is so mundane that every commoner is doing it...

I personally think spell traps/clocks of Greater teleport or magic items that cast TP circle 1/2/3/day would be eventually made.

[Destro2119]

I mean, define "actual threat".

It's relatively low, but if those troops are at all powerful, then that's still a dangerous amount of offense suddenly showing up inside your territory. And that's assuming it's quickly intercepted. The spell has a good duration and the though-put is per-round, so if nobody notices your troops massing for the first 15 minutes, you have a lot of troops there.

Threat to an omni-surveilled city that can teleport in troops as good or better within a round or two? Not much of one.

Threat to a fairly dense city with its own troops of comparable strength ready to spring into action? Not crushing, but not trivial either, the equivalent of a major terrorist attack.

Threat to a kingdom where it will take a messenger half a day to announce the threat, and the nearest garrison another half day to send troops there? Huge.


As far as needing a caster, how much this limits the tactic depends on how rare those are. Anti-teleportation defenses are limited by the same thing (available casters), so in a way the relative threat level remains constant.

I am intrigued by the communication aspect you bring up. It seems to me that such a society would rapidly development widespread communications equipment, like commlinks etc, to accelerate information dissemination. Possibly leading to a sort of internet.

[Clistenes]

Agreed, but that was Tippy’s justification. A little later in the same thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12185909&postcount=39) he claims that it’s allowed under the “transport travelers” clause—even though the wording, as you point out, is specifically limited to creatures.

You could put the Weirstone in a place that doesn't allow anybody to teleport there... like, create six intersecting Prismatic Walls right besides, above and under the stone, forming a small box around it (you can research a spell to create horizontal ones). Repeat a hundred times: Now anybody teleporting next to the stone is crossing hundreds of Prismatic Walls at the same time.

You can add Force Walls for extra protection. You can research a spell that surrounds the Weirdstone with a small box of Force Walls, and surround that box with insersecting overlapping Prismatic Walls..

[Telok]

The precise mechanical rules for the items and spells are less important than the ligic chains of "thing A can be done, it is profitable/useful to someone, thus it is done at some point, people will react/retaliaye with B, repeat".

So, there are characters who become high level &or powerful enough to be age-immortal. It may be that the violent death rate + resurrection prevention rate is greater than the rate people achieve this power level. If not then there is a ever increasing population of high-end spellcasters, psions, etc. Interesting but not critical.

Assume at some point someone makes a permanent portal link between two distant cities. Cleric of a trade god using Greater Planar Ally Wishes, L20 wizard doing metamagic rod Widened Teleport Circle and Permancy, use activated magic arches of Greater Teleport, variant on Mirror of Mental Prowess (I think that's the scry & portal one). Whatever, there's a link. Now, trade = economics = money = power = politics. As soon as anyone makes money off this someone else wants to replicate it. Once the distance between two cities is functionally zero those cities are functionally one city.

You can argue about access and bottlenecks. But it's profitable, and taxable. There are three general outcomes: 1. Nobody can agree on stuff, big fight, all the people able & willing to make the portals are perma-killed, everything back to normal until next time. 2. Leaders work thing out, two cities become like one megacity with a massive trade distance shortcut, there will be more money sloshing around, they want more links, other people in other cities want either access or to do the same thing, they want links too. 3. Starts like #1 but someone wins and ends up with #2.

Bigger cities have more stuff & luxuries & opportunity. More high-end power people want to be in the big big city. They don't want their homes destroyed and friends killed. The megacity becomes more and more immune to attack as more high end casters move in. Eventually one of the immortal wizard becomes a not-terrible leader, or a leader becomes an immortal wizard, or the people making & controlling portals go all "power behind the throne". Whatever, one or more of the 30+ mental stat and ability to divine the future gets into power and promotes more people like themselves.

Either this trend continues and you're thinking about Tippy type stuff, or there's a massive war and everything blows up and most of the high end casters die permanently. That's going to depend on how well the people in power can deal with each other. Tippy assumed someone won or they worked stuff out and then went on from there.

[Destro2119]

The precise mechanical rules for the items and spells are less important than the ligic chains of "thing A can be done, it is profitable/useful to someone, thus it is done at some point, people will react/retaliaye with B, repeat".

So, there are characters who become high level &or powerful enough to be age-immortal. It may be that the violent death rate + resurrection prevention rate is greater than the rate people achieve this power level. If not then there is a ever increasing population of high-end spellcasters, psions, etc. Interesting but not critical.

Assume at some point someone makes a permanent portal link between two distant cities. Cleric of a trade god using Greater Planar Ally Wishes, L20 wizard doing metamagic rod Widened Teleport Circle and Permancy, use activated magic arches of Greater Teleport, variant on Mirror of Mental Prowess (I think that's the scry & portal one). Whatever, there's a link. Now, trade = economics = money = power = politics. As soon as anyone makes money off this someone else wants to replicate it. Once the distance between two cities is functionally zero those cities are functionally one city.

You can argue about access and bottlenecks. But it's profitable, and taxable. There are three general outcomes: 1. Nobody can agree on stuff, big fight, all the people able & willing to make the portals are perma-killed, everything back to normal until next time. 2. Leaders work thing out, two cities become like one megacity with a massive trade distance shortcut, there will be more money sloshing around, they want more links, other people in other cities want either access or to do the same thing, they want links too. 3. Starts like #1 but someone wins and ends up with #2.

Bigger cities have more stuff & luxuries & opportunity. More high-end power people want to be in the big big city. They don't want their homes destroyed and friends killed. The megacity becomes more and more immune to attack as more high end casters move in. Eventually one of the immortal wizard becomes a not-terrible leader, or a leader becomes an immortal wizard, or the people making & controlling portals go all "power behind the throne". Whatever, one or more of the 30+ mental stat and ability to divine the future gets into power and promotes more people like themselves.

Either this trend continues and you're thinking about Tippy type stuff, or there's a massive war and everything blows up and most of the high end casters die permanently. That's going to depend on how well the people in power can deal with each other. Tippy assumed someone won or they worked stuff out and then went on from there.

Which makes sense, since high level casters typically have tons of "anti-death" backups anyways/then the setting wouldn't be Tippyverse-type so much as Numenera.

Also, I would love to see Space Age tippyverse.

[Crake]

You don't wish YOURSELF to the weirdstone. You wish a mindless creature who is expendable with a giant stack of explosive rune notes and a magic trap that first casts disintegrate and then dispel magic triggered by them being moved and calibrated to always fail the dispel check even on a 20 of the explosive runes. The target location is "Directly touching the weirdstone" and everything in the area takes 6000000d6 force damage. The only substance that can survive that force damage is riverine and riverine is destroyed by the disintegrate.

Except that's when the weirdstone is encased in riverine while also being within a selective AMF and globe of invulnerability (so that way even an invoke magic spell won't be able to go off as that gets cancelled by the globe of invulnerability) so that only the guards can perform magic, while the riverine prevents line of sight for the AMF to affect the weirdstone, allowing it to continue functioning. So your mindless expendable creature arrives and just deflates with no fanfare.

Point being, it's not as simple as "teleport the wierdstone away" or "teleport in and handily defeat the guards and destroy the weirdstone" it takes a proper assault on each of the weirdstones, and you're gonna have to invest in a lot of wishes to send a sizable enough force to take out the redundancy weirdstones on top of that. Sure, with enough investment it can be achieved, but it's not as simple as Tippy made it out to be, and eventually it becomes an equation of "do we risk our most capable mages in an assault on their weirdstones, and potentially lose everything while fighting on their home turf, or do we invest in an army to march on the city?" Keep in mind, that while the wierdstone is keeping everyone OUT, it's also keeping everyone IN as well, so it becomes a proper good siege situation. Of course, with the city being self sustaining, and the army having an easy supply line back, it actually ends up being a war of espionage.

[Bugbear]

I am intrigued by the communication aspect you bring up. It seems to me that such a society would rapidly development widespread communications equipment, like commlinks etc, to accelerate information dissemination. Possibly leading to a sort of internet.

Try a Psinet. Telepathy is a weak magic, so giving everyone a headband of telepathy is not so hard for a magic society.

Add in some telepathic intelligent magic items "books" for lots of information on the psinet.

For more fun add telepathic undead, like ghosts, liches and brains in jars.

Plus Udoxias (Each udoxia is at its core an incredibly advanced cognizance crystal, with seemingly no limit to its storage capacity. In each udoxia was imprinted many powers and psionic feats.)

And this only scratches the surface of psionincs too....

[icefractal]

Except that's when the weirdstone is encased in riverine while also being within a selective AMF and globe of invulnerability (so that way even an invoke magic spell won't be able to go off as that gets cancelled by the globe of invulnerability)At this point, you're spending some serious resources on this defense though, most notably the Weirdstone itself.

Unless you have an abundance of 20th level casters (specific requirement) on retainer, you'll probably be wanting to fit inside a limited number of 6 mile circles, not spread out over large areas of territory. It's also kind of a two-edged sword since you can't teleport your own troops there either, nor benefit from trade-portals, but good to have as an emergency measure.

[Asmotherion]

Heressy! :smalltongue:

Jokes asside, just look at the duration of Teleportation Circle (the spell). It has a duration of 10 minutes per Level, and given the minimum caster level to cast it is 17, that amounts to 2 hours and 50 minutes. Even if it was a 5 foot square, that's plenty of time for a massive wave to teleport and start making massive damage before the first responders notice, let alone arrive. Which, as established, is not the case, as 5 foot radius essentially means a 10 foot circle. Finally, the spell can be targeted with permanency.

On the Casting time, it's nothing that can't be countered by casting the spell from a scroll; Tippyverse has plenty of ways to make magic items at-will at no cost.

Counter measures; A large area covering a city with Dimensional Lock, cast by all citizens periodically.

And, to quote Fudge from Harry Potter:“The trouble is, the other side can do magic too, Prime Minister." The premice is, we have a Magocracy that has it's own hierarchy and basically does not care about the rest of the world. What stops a Mage from rebeling would be the knowlage that, he's not the only one who can do "awesome magic", and that any serious attempt to do so will be met with expotential force by Mages loyal to the System.

[Crake]

At this point, you're spending some serious resources on this defense though, most notably the Weirdstone itself.

Unless you have an abundance of 20th level casters (specific requirement) on retainer, you'll probably be wanting to fit inside a limited number of 6 mile circles, not spread out over large areas of territory. It's also kind of a two-edged sword since you can't teleport your own troops there either, nor benefit from trade-portals, but good to have as an emergency measure.

Well, when you're talking about a magic-intense, large scale metropolis, that kind of defense is just a small portion of the city's GDP, and well worth the investment. I mean, if we're talking about a setting where people are throwing around teleportation circles as an offensive measure in the first place, 20th level casters aren't in particularly short supply. Also, this is specifically for the defense of a city, not a nation. Trying to cover an entire nation in weirdstones would indeed be an infeasible effort.

[Destro2119]

Try a Psinet. Telepathy is a weak magic, so giving everyone a headband of telepathy is not so hard for a magic society.

Add in some telepathic intelligent magic items "books" for lots of information on the psinet.

For more fun add telepathic undead, like ghosts, liches and brains in jars.

Plus Udoxias (Each udoxia is at its core an incredibly advanced cognizance crystal, with seemingly no limit to its storage capacity. In each udoxia was imprinted many powers and psionic feats.)

And this only scratches the surface of psionincs too....

All we have to do is reflavor it as magic (I am partial to Elsimore's creed :smallwink:) and/or just create magic smartphones and magic internet.

Also: Finally! Yes! Another post that adds info relevant to my ideas and that isn't debating Tippyverse's premise!

[Destro2119]

Heressy! :smalltongue:

Jokes asside, just look at the duration of Teleportation Circle (the spell). It has a duration of 10 minutes per Level, and given the minimum caster level to cast it is 17, that amounts to 2 hours and 50 minutes. Even if it was a 5 foot square, that's plenty of time for a massive wave to teleport and start making massive damage before the first responders notice, let alone arrive. Which, as established, is not the case, as 5 foot radius essentially means a 10 foot circle. Finally, the spell can be targeted with permanency.

On the Casting time, it's nothing that can't be countered by casting the spell from a scroll; Tippyverse has plenty of ways to make magic items at-will at no cost.

Counter measures; A large area covering a city with Dimensional Lock, cast by all citizens periodically.

And, to quote Fudge from Harry Potter:“The trouble is, the other side can do magic too, Prime Minister." The premice is, we have a Magocracy that has it's own hierarchy and basically does not care about the rest of the world. What stops a Mage from rebeling would be the knowlage that, he's not the only one who can do "awesome magic", and that any serious attempt to do so will be met with expotential force by Mages loyal to the System.

Finally! Yes! Another post that adds info relevant to my question!

[Max Caysey]

It might just be me, but wouldn't it be pertinent to actually let Tippy respond to all of this? ...If he's even on these boards anymore?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Max Caysey
It might just be me, but wouldn't it be pertinent to actually let Tippy respond to all of this?

Tippy had a brief pulse of activity about a year ago, but prior to that had been quiet for a long while. Doesn't seem like he's really around these days.

[JNAProductions]

Also: Finally! Yes! Another post that adds info relevant to my ideas and that isn't debating Tippyverse's premise!

You made a thread about the Tippyverse, and its premise.

Are you surprised that people are debating that topic?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Destro2119
Another post that adds info relevant to my ideas and that isn't debating Tippyverse's premise!

OP, it might be very helpful if you could restate your questions and ideas, as far as what you wanted to focus on at this point.

[Willie the Duck]

Finally! Yes! Another post that adds info relevant to my question!


You made a thread about the Tippyverse, and its premise.

Are you surprised that people are debating that topic?

That's a good point. OP, do you think that you 'get to*' curate acceptable activity on a thread simply because you started it, or believe that people are doing something wrong if they make side points and follow tangents?
*and have any expectation that others ought to care

[icefractal]

On the Casting time, it's nothing that can't be countered by casting the spell from a scroll; Tippyverse has plenty of ways to make magic items at-will at no cost.IMO, Tippyverse works better without no-cost item creation. Statements like "a bigger city can afford better defenses" or "armies are a finite size" are only true when limiting factors exist.

What you have with full cost-avoidance is what I'd call The Singularity.
In the Singularity, numbers don't matter, because a single person capable of initiating a Wish-loop is the equal of 10,000 20th level casters.
In the Singularity, you don't need fortified cities, because every blade of grass on the prairie can be a massively powerful construct in disguise.
In the Singularity, the normal mortal population only exists as "pets" to protect - anything they could do, the infinite armies of godlike beings could do better.

But fortunately, the Tippyverse doesn't require no-cost tricks to work. You can just spend resources for that magic infrastructure - it's expensive but not that expensive, and well worth it.


Well, when you're talking about a magic-intense, large scale metropolis, that kind of defense is just a small portion of the city's GDP, and well worth the investment. I mean, if we're talking about a setting where people are throwing around teleportation circles as an offensive measure in the first place, 20th level casters aren't in particularly short supply. Also, this is specifically for the defense of a city, not a nation. Trying to cover an entire nation in weirdstones would indeed be an infeasible effort.Teleportation Circle only needs 17th level, although how much of a distinction that is depends on demographics. But it sounds like we're not really in disagreement - IIRC, the move to city-states in the Tippyverse is because they can be defended.

[Destro2119]

So can we at least agree that the main point of this thread has been resolved (ie Teleportation based tactics like TP circle et al are serious threats)?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Destro2119
So can we at least agree that the main point of this thread has been resolved (ie Teleportation based tactics like TP circle et al are serious threats)?

I’m not convinced that teleport circles used for trade couldn’t be hardened against the specific type of attack that Tippy was assuming. But teleport tactics more broadly, yes, there are certainly some dangerous applications, as described upthread.

[Crake]

Teleportation Circle only needs 17th level, although how much of a distinction that is depends on demographics. But it sounds like we're not really in disagreement - IIRC, the move to city-states in the Tippyverse is because they can be defended.

Not exactly relevant to the thread, though I did once include in my setting an area of land that was encompassed by rivers with weirdstone particles distributed within them that caused the whole area to become affected as if by a weirdstone to prevent a large-scale planar rift to the plane of shadow. The players thought it was sus, and broke the circle, causing a giant rift to tear open, and a storm of wraiths to pour out :smalleek:

I also allow players to buy "weirdstone water" as an alchemical item in low magic/e6 games, to act as a cheap, but unreliable dimensional anchor effect.

[Destro2119]

I’m not convinced that teleport circles used for trade couldn’t be hardened against the specific type of attack that Tippy was assuming. But teleport tactics more broadly, yes, there are certainly some dangerous applications, as described upthread.

So therefore the "nuclear/total warfare" type thing is preserved? Since really nothing else needs to happen.

[Asmotherion]

So therefore the "nuclear/total warfare" type thing is preserved? Since really nothing else needs to happen.

I would assume that for a large scale attack, the mass teleportation would still need to take place outside the city walls, and probably at a safe distance. Thus, it would not give the type of strategical advantage as the initial premice, but could still be an interesting strategy, as it still gives you a whole army outside of the city walls. Finally, there's always the chance that a scout could cast Disjunction on a part of the city Defences, and give a vulnerable spot for the Mass Teleportation inside the walls to take place.

Overall, the strategy could work, but with extra steps. The first few rounds would be a War between Disjunctions, Counterspells and Dimension Locks canceling each other Out. The party with more high level spell slots would eventually win, but not before the Invaders have managed a large amount of High Level Spellcasters to infiltrate. From that point, the Nuking begins, though with only 7th and bellow Spell Slots.

This could cause some damage, but they would eventually be caught. Then, it's a War of Attrition with wave after wave of the exact same attack, each wave trying to take as many high level casters out of the war from the opposite side. Again, whoever has the more casters on their side wins.

[Destro2119]

I would assume that for a large scale attack, the mass teleportation would still need to take place outside the city walls, and probably at a safe distance. Thus, it would not give the type of strategical advantage as the initial premice, but could still be an interesting strategy, as it still gives you a whole army outside of the city walls. Finally, there's always the chance that a scout could cast Disjunction on a part of the city Defences, and give a vulnerable spot for the Mass Teleportation inside the walls to take place.

Overall, the strategy could work, but with extra steps. The first few rounds would be a War between Disjunctions, Counterspells and Dimension Locks canceling each other Out. The party with more high level spell slots would eventually win, but not before the Invaders have managed a large amount of High Level Spellcasters to infiltrate. From that point, the Nuking begins, though with only 7th and bellow Spell Slots.

This could cause some damage, but they would eventually be caught. Then, it's a War of Attrition with wave after wave of the exact same attack, each wave trying to take as many high level casters out of the war from the opposite side. Again, whoever has the more casters on their side wins.

Or magic items that cast TP circle/teleport.

[Crake]

I would assume that for a large scale attack, the mass teleportation would still need to take place outside the city walls, and probably at a safe distance. Thus, it would not give the type of strategical advantage as the initial premice, but could still be an interesting strategy, as it still gives you a whole army outside of the city walls. Finally, there's always the chance that a scout could cast Disjunction on a part of the city Defences, and give a vulnerable spot for the Mass Teleportation inside the walls to take place.

Overall, the strategy could work, but with extra steps. The first few rounds would be a War between Disjunctions, Counterspells and Dimension Locks canceling each other Out. The party with more high level spell slots would eventually win, but not before the Invaders have managed a large amount of High Level Spellcasters to infiltrate. From that point, the Nuking begins, though with only 7th and bellow Spell Slots.

This could cause some damage, but they would eventually be caught. Then, it's a War of Attrition with wave after wave of the exact same attack, each wave trying to take as many high level casters out of the war from the opposite side. Again, whoever has the more casters on their side wins.

Given that wondrous architecture can be up to 4x cheaper than a portable wondrous item equivalent, I would say it's less about who has more casters, and more about who has more power at their disposal. Casters are definitely one part of that equation, but the defenders most certainly have an advantage when it comes to stationary defense, vs mobile offense.

[Asmotherion]

Or magic items that cast TP circle/teleport.
True.


Given that wondrous architecture can be up to 4x cheaper than a portable wondrous item equivalent, I would say it's less about who has more casters, and more about who has more power at their disposal. Casters are definitely one part of that equation, but the defenders most certainly have an advantage when it comes to stationary defense, vs mobile offense.
Also true.

I'm going to bet on eternal war, given both have access to infinite immortal casters and infinite wishes (Imortality through Cloning Spells and Originals living in their own Demiplanes, Ice Assassins and Wish Traps/Gate-In Effreety/Zodars/Shapechange into Zodar and other Wish Loops). Or, with the amount of Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma both factions have, they'll figure this out before a conflict even starts or at least a few waves of assult latter, and then they'll either discuss their differances over a cup of tea, or just stop being on speaking terms and instead start spreading nasty rumors about each other. No need to start an other Blood War.

[Crake]

True.


Also true.

I'm going to bet on eternal war, given both have access to infinite immortal casters and infinite wishes (Imortality through Cloning Spells and Originals living in their own Demiplanes, Ice Assassins and Wish Traps/Gate-In Effreety/Zodars/Shapechange into Zodar and other Wish Loops). Or, with the amount of Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma both factions have, they'll figure this out before a conflict even starts or at least a few waves of assult latter, and then they'll either discuss their differances over a cup of tea, or just stop being on speaking terms and instead start spreading nasty rumors about each other. No need to start an other Blood War.

Even in the case of having infintely respawning troops as you describe, if one side is able to destroy the other fast enough to gain ground, being immortal becomes irrelevant in the end, as you still lose what you were fighting over.

[Asmotherion]

Even in the case of having infintely respawning troops as you describe, if one side is able to destroy the other fast enough to gain ground, being immortal becomes irrelevant in the end, as you still lose what you were fighting over.

Sure, but gain enough ground, and the Attackers become the defenders, and with the roles reverced it's still an eternal stalemate.

[Destro2119]

True.


Also true.

I'm going to bet on eternal war, given both have access to infinite immortal casters and infinite wishes (Imortality through Cloning Spells and Originals living in their own Demiplanes, Ice Assassins and Wish Traps/Gate-In Effreety/Zodars/Shapechange into Zodar and other Wish Loops). Or, with the amount of Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma both factions have, they'll figure this out before a conflict even starts or at least a few waves of assult latter, and then they'll either discuss their differances over a cup of tea, or just stop being on speaking terms and instead start spreading nasty rumors about each other. No need to start an other Blood War.

No use for an eternal war-- it will probably just be like 1980s cold war/present nuclear deterrent than anything else until they realize they have literally nothing to gain from warring and unite to conquer the galaxy :smallsmile:.

[The Random NPC]

Tippy forgets thats his entire planet would be covered in Halaster’s Teleportation Cage... if his scenario would play out!

Just looked up the spell, Halaster's Teleportation Cages merge if they're next to each other. If it covers the entire world, a wizard doesn't even have to get out of bed to disjunction all of it.


That's a good point. OP, do you think that you 'get to*' curate acceptable activity on a thread simply because you started it, or believe that people are doing something wrong if they make side points and follow tangents?
*and have any expectation that others ought to care

Case in point, Snuggles the Doom kitty. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?93068-First-time-DMing-and-already-killed-a-character)

[Melcar]

Just looked up the spell, Halaster's Teleportation Cages merge if they're next to each other. If it covers the entire world, a wizard doesn't even have to get out of bed to disjunction all of it.

Im fairly certain its possible to weaponize it and cast it in a way that makes its efficient for banning teleportation circles!

[liquidformat]

Case in point, Snuggles the Doom kitty. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?93068-First-time-DMing-and-already-killed-a-character)

Snuggles' skill points weren't update all his skills are way off what they should be...

[The Random NPC]

Im fairly certain its possible to weaponize it and cast it in a way that makes its efficient for banning teleportation circles!

You'd have to isolate a given area from other cages to protect it from disjunction. Also, since it's a long-standing abjuration effect, there will be noticeable visual manifestations.


Snuggles' skill points weren't update all his skills are way off what they should be...

That is the incepting thread, I'm not surprised it isn't accurate.

[rel]

So I was recently reading through the much vaunted Tippyverse thread when I noticed a rather egregious problem:


How can this be? TP Circle is only 5 ft big, and takes a long time to set up. Mass teleport is difficult and not enough for armies. Also, why do the high level wizards not just rebel and destroy the world or something? How "common" are class levels?

So the thing you're missing is the word nation.

Consider a traditional fantasy nation, say Rohan.
The nation is spread over the plains, most people live in farmsteads or are semi nomadic, herding horses. There's a city but it isn't a fortress, nor does it have a huge garrison. Most of the nations army is out patrolling the borders and the wild places.
When trouble starts and Saruman sends his orcs raiding the people retreat to the fortress of Helms Deep and prepare for a traditional siege.

Tippyverse postulates that this traditional nation makes no sense. Because, Saruman would start things off by sneaking into the wine cellar of Helms Deep. He would then set up a teleportation circle and spend a few hours teleporting orcs into the fortress to take it over.
Theoden leads a heroic escape to his mountain fastness and finds it under new management with an army at his heels.

So how does an enterprising king prevent sneak attack from teleporting wizard armies?
By concentrating power. Gone are the rolling fields of farmsteads and herders, everyone lives in a compact fortress city with a powerful standing army, potent anti teleportation defenses and a corps of diviners on standby to spot mystic treachery.

Your nation is no longer trivially defeated by a single spell but it doesn't look like a traditional city any longer. It looks like a tippyverse city and that's the crux of the argument. High level locations don't look like traditional fantasy kingdoms, they look like magical vaults and bunkers.

Sure, sometimes a wizard-kings subjects rebel or defenses fail and a city falls or changes hands but by necessity, the basic theme of a high level kingdom isn't Lord of the Rings, it's Fallout.

None of this precludes a bunch of low level cities kingdoms and what not in your setting. The high level god wizards can be sitting in their hidden fortresses in a perpetual magical cold war while the rest of the setting can (and probably should) be low level, traditional, and blissfully unaware of the god wizards living in the basement.

This is, in my opinion, the best way to use a tippyverse style setting. Create a traditional fantasy setting and use the magical cold war as an explanation for interesting ruins, monsters and dungeons and a cool background element.
Something to hint at but never really explore until the game reaches very high levels, a way to keep adventuring in your setting without jarringly boosting the powerlevel of threats to match the PC's.

[Destro2119]

As a continuation of this idea, I would like the concept of eventually a consolidated world government that leads to a great space age.

The campaign leading up to this could be allies between cities and other cities and also between powerful wilderness creatures like dragons.

Basically everybody agreeing a constant cold war does nothing for them and setting out to conquer the galaxy.

So reclaiming the wilderness could involve Daern's instant fortresses being mass produced, jutting mightily above the trees at certain intervals, aweing the "barbarian kingdoms."

Fortified settlements set up around these fortresses, guarded over/managed by powerful casters and dragons.

Eventually they reach the stars and create a spacefaring empire.

[liquidformat]

No use for an eternal war-- it will probably just be like 1980s cold war/present nuclear deterrent than anything else until they realize they have literally nothing to gain from warring and unite to conquer the galaxy :smallsmile:.

This really assumes that all problems may be overcome peacefully. Once you get a population to the zealot level of belief where 'either they die or we die' type of ethos is engrained into the society all bets are off.

I think this is a big issue with Tippyverse in general and what leads to most settings being post apocalypse.

[Destro2119]

This really assumes that all problems may be overcome peacefully. Once you get a population to the zealot level of belief where 'either they die or we die' type of ethos is engrained into the society all bets are off.

I think this is a big issue with Tippyverse in general and what leads to most settings being post apocalypse.

The GM can make whatever decisions they want to make the story fun. Personally, I don't think "sudden nuclear war!" is a very fun campaign for Tippyverse.

It's not like apocalypse is inevitable either for Tippyverse. Remember, Tippyverse is not "Mindrape everyone lolol." Implying there is some degree of decency in there.
I would think decent people would ally with other decent people eventually.

And yes, ALL solutions can be overcome peacefully at those levels, if only because people realize that there is literally no point to fighting amongst each other (put those 20+ ints to work, people!) due to resources being plentiful and the very real possibility that any major war will result in a slowly cooling debris field where the planet once was.

[liquidformat]

The GM can make whatever decisions they want to make the story fun. Personally, I don't think "sudden nuclear war!" is a very fun campaign for Tippyverse.

It's not like apocalypse is inevitable either for Tippyverse. Remember, Tippyverse is not "Mindrape everyone lolol." Implying there is some degree of decency in there.
I would think decent people would ally with other decent people eventually.

And yes, ALL solutions can be overcome peacefully at those levels, if only because people realize that there is literally no point to fighting amongst each other (put those 20+ ints to work, people!) due to resources being plentiful and the very real possibility that any major war will result in a slowly cooling debris field where the planet once was.

How does the saying go... oh yes the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

It only takes one person to over react or to misread a divination to start an apocalyptic event at these levels, heck with these power levels it only takes one person with bad intentions. Tippyverse is based on pretty much the idea of the cold war where everyone is hesitant to act because they realize the other side is just as powerful, if you start looking at history books it is very clear we got very lucky on a number of occasions and it would only take once to flip things on their head.

Yes its up to the DM to make whatever decisions they want about the world, I am just saying a setting where pretty much every power is in a cold war type of scenario is a powder keg waiting to go off.

[rel]

If it leads to a good game, go for it!
The setting I laid out isn't the only way to go, it just works for me and the people I play with:

Traditional fantasy with lot's of dungeon crawls, weirdness in the deeps and a ready answer to 'what are all those monsters eating' at low levels.

And at high levels you have adventure and town locations in pretty much any flavor you feel like with a baked in explanation for why they are neatly encapsulated and why all these high level NPC's weren't out there solving all the parties problems back when they were level 5 or level 10.

[Silly Name]

The GM can make whatever decisions they want to make the story fun. Personally, I don't think "sudden nuclear war!" is a very fun campaign for Tippyverse.

It's not like apocalypse is inevitable either for Tippyverse. Remember, Tippyverse is not "Mindrape everyone lolol." Implying there is some degree of decency in there.
I would think decent people would ally with other decent people eventually.

And yes, ALL solutions can be overcome peacefully at those levels, if only because people realize that there is literally no point to fighting amongst each other (put those 20+ ints to work, people!) due to resources being plentiful and the very real possibility that any major war will result in a slowly cooling debris field where the planet once was.

Doesn't the Tippyverse sorta imply a post-scarcity society? I don't think that, based on those premises, a campaign in the Tippyverse is particularly fun. Or even exists: there are no problems to solve, especially if we assume we end up with a society where rationality and moral principles end up prevailing.

If anything, such a world should act as the Confederacy in Star Trek: ok, we've achieved global peace and every single person has their every need and want meet at zero cost and with no harm to others. So now we look to space/other worlds/dimensions/whatever to explore and discover because that is where interesting things and conflict can happen. Which means the Confederacy/Tippyverse is just a background element that explains why and how the protagonists are travelling across space.

[Destro2119]

Exactly this idea basically. I think this sort of spacefaring civilization would be far more interesting than "lol apocaplyses destroy tippyverse."

Heck, as lead up to this campaign you could have a campaign revolving around defusing the "cold wars".

Which BTW are not INEVITABLE, otherwise very few of us would be here today.

And besides in Tippyverse places have little need to attack anyways due to 99% resource independency.

But maybe an "alien spaceship crash" is a good impetus for a world government anyways.

PS: I made a new thread on just this campiagn topic!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629950-Space-Age-Tippyverse&p=25004998#post25004998

[liquidformat]

Exactly this idea basically. I think this sort of spacefaring civilization would be far more interesting than "lol apocaplyses destroy tippyverse."

Heck, as lead up to this campaign you could have a campaign revolving around defusing the "cold wars".

Which BTW are not INEVITABLE, otherwise very few of us would be here today.

And besides in Tippyverse places have little need to attack anyways due to 99% resource independency.

But maybe an "alien spaceship crash" is a good impetus for a world government anyways.

PS: I made a new thread on just this campiagn topic!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629950-Space-Age-Tippyverse&p=25004998#post25004998

Where did I say anything like "lol apocaplyses destroy tippyverse." or that apocalypse is INEVITABLE? Heck even Tippy gave apocalypse as one of the three outcomes of the base premise I just believe it has more weight than Tippy believes it to. But that also really depends on what people are fighting over.

The show altered carbon is decent example of the chaos in a tippyverse type of setting. You have an elite population that have effectively achieved immortality and while the elites could strive for equality they don't because its a more selfish capitalistic society. So you end up with poor rebelling because of inequality and a separate group rebelling because they believe immortality is wrong. I could easily see a powerful and devoted group of druids and their supporters rebelling against a tippyverse society not because of scarcity but because they are disgusted with a bastardization of nature. Heck in a lot of setting that is pretty much the idea behind most druids...

[Destro2119]

Where did I say anything like "lol apocaplyses destroy tippyverse." or that apocalypse is INEVITABLE? Heck even Tippy gave apocalypse as one of the three outcomes of the base premise I just believe it has more weight than Tippy believes it to. But that also really depends on what people are fighting over.

The show altered carbon is decent example of the chaos in a tippyverse type of setting. You have an elite population that have effectively achieved immortality and while the elites could strive for equality they don't because its a more selfish capitalistic society. So you end up with poor rebelling because of inequality and a separate group rebelling because they believe immortality is wrong. I could easily see a powerful and devoted group of druids and their supporters rebelling against a tippyverse society not because of scarcity but because they are disgusted with a bastardization of nature. Heck in a lot of setting that is pretty much the idea behind most druids...

Yes, but I personally think campaigns to stop apocalai and advance society are cooler than "yep the apocalypse happened. Better get to playing normal DnD again!"

To each their own.

[icefractal]

I feel like a "rolling apocalypse" is the most natural for D&D settings, as there are a lot of ways to achieve highly advanced empires and also a lot of ways to destroy them.

So at a given time, some places are just starting their path to Tippyverse status, some are already there, some are collapsing, some are hazardous ruins, and some are small villages rebuilding from the last collapse.

This provides a source for those highly-stocked dungeons (ruins from a Tippy-stage empire that could mass produce magic), and a range of places to go depending on how much civilization you're looking for.

And I wouldn't say that the collapse is inevitable, just that it's happened to most of the empires that have come before. So preventing that is a possible goal.

[Clistenes]

Well, if the Tippyverse can be created, but it is relatively easy to destroy, that would explain why most D&D worlds don't go magitech and remain pre-industrial economies... after a few failures, powerful spellcasters give up on creating a post-scarcity world and either retreat to heavily defended, hidden demiplanes where they create their private paradises and perfect cities, or they stay in their world and try to help people with their magic without creating magitech-based states...

That would create a fatalistic mindset among the population, who would try to live day to day, in the present, without really trying to improve their world. Religion would fill the void, and people would focus on the afterlife and on messianic prophecies. Villains would mostly be of the "loot everything I can and take it to my den" rather than the "try to create my own empire" type...

You know, if you accept that the Tippyverse is easy to destroy you end with a world that isn't so different from your vanilla D&D pre-industrial pseudo-feudal world...

[Heliomance]

I'm currently running a game in a post-Tippyverse. Backstory is that the cold war state was broken when someone discovered epic magic, global thaumonuclear war broke out, until the fabric of reality was threatened to the point that Mechanus invaded and bombed the Prime back to the stone age, pretty much eradicating magic. Some centuries later, magic is just starting to leak back into the world, and the PCs are exploring the ruins of the ancient cities trying to work out what happened.

[Melcar]

I'm currently running a game in a post-Tippyverse. Backstory is that the cold war state was broken when someone discovered epic magic, global thaumonuclear war broke out, until the fabric of reality was threatened to the point that Mechanus invaded and bombed the Prime back to the stone age, pretty much eradicating magic. Some centuries later, magic is just starting to leak back into the world, and the PCs are exploring the ruins of the ancient cities trying to work out what happened.

Not even sure that makes any sense... The first person to gain access to epic magic (and assuming the rules are being run as RAW) could not in any situation ever be threatened again! Full stop! The rules makes it so, that any epic spell can be made instantaneously, at zero cost at Spellcraft DC 0. So epic magic makes anyone who has access to it basically immune to all... because that is actually a permanent spell you could create with the epic spell rules... so you can't nuke others who have access to epic magic, because well they are immune. There is really no MAD to consider, because you cannot be destroyed yourself ever after gaining access to it. At this level of play, there are no threats bar Lady of Pain or AO or some other cosmic entity, which has immunity piercing abilities. And even then, your contingencies would probably prevent even one such as AO or LoP from really hurting you.

I'm not trying to say your idea is bad, I'm simple saying apply the rules as written logically (as is somewhat the intent of Tippyverse as I understand it) and the worlds becomes a place where literally everyone has access to magic and unlimited money. No one works, because everything is created magically. There are no farming, no hunger, no drought, no war, no suffering... its just. Dial up a zodar, wish it to be done, or pay someone with your unlimited wealth! And this is not the work of high level arch mages, but level 1 commoners with UMD optimized just a bit...

[InvisibleBison]

Not even sure that makes any sense... The first person to gain access to epic magic (and assuming the rules are being run as RAW) could not in any situation ever be threatened again! Full stop! The rules makes it so, that any epic spell can be made instantaneously, at zero cost at Spellcraft DC 0.

That's not necessarily true. RAW, all epic spells require DM approval. In online discussions, we tend to assume that DMs will approve anything that isn't in violation of the rules, but that's just a convenience to make discussions possible. Actual games are under no obligation to make that assumption. In their game, an actual DM can forbid all DC 0 epic spells, or all epic spells that mitigate the DC by more than 50%, or whatever else they desire, without stepping outside of RAW in the slightest.

[Melcar]

That's not necessarily true. RAW, all epic spells require DM approval. In online discussions, we tend to assume that DMs will approve anything that isn't in violation of the rules, but that's just a convenience to make discussions possible. Actual games are under no obligation to make that assumption. In their game, an actual DM can forbid all DC 0 epic spells, or all epic spells that mitigate the DC by more than 50%, or whatever else they desire, without stepping outside of RAW in the slightest.

RAW, everything require DM approval... whats your point?

Sorry, but are you not just stating the obvious...? That this TO discussion has very little to do with most actual games? I don't mean to offend, but I don't understand what point your trying to make... This is an online discussion, where we do explicitly assume DM will approve the rules as is, because if we don't, "ask your DM" would be the sole answer to every question here...

[icefractal]

"DC 0 means instantaneous" is not entirely unambiguous. For magic items, 0-level spells mean half the cost of a 1st level spell, not zero.

And given as epic spells have the same GM-approval stance as custom magic items, I don't feel like "DC 0 spells exist and everyone instantly learns all of them" is any more of a thing to rely on than "use activated True Strike item, 2000 gp, why does anyone think AC matters?"

[Clistenes]

Epic Magic changes everything. At that point you basically are roleplaying a deity, not an adventurer...

Tippyverse settings are based on non-Epic magic, because once you go Epic... well anything goes .. you aren't just feeding people with your magic, you are reincarnating them as Titans or whatever you want...

[Destro2119]

TBH, while "rolling apocalai" might be a thing, I am more interested in TPverse campaigns that would actually focus on the events that happen in the Tippyverse. Preventing the "cycle of rolling apocalai" would be a good campaign for me.

[InvisibleBison]

RAW, everything require DM approval... whats your point?

Sorry, but are you not just stating the obvious...? That this TO discussion has very little to do with most actual games? I don't mean to offend, but I don't understand what point your trying to make... This is an online discussion, where we do explicitly assume DM will approve the rules as is, because if we don't, "ask your DM" would be the sole answer to every question here...

You said that Heliomance's game's backstory didn't make sense, because anyone who has epic magic is immune to everything. My point is that statement is only correct if the DM chooses to allow it to be correct, and it is absurd to think that Heliomance would apply the rules in a way that prevented the game she wanted to run from being possible.

[liquidformat]

Not even sure that makes any sense... The first person to gain access to epic magic (and assuming the rules are being run as RAW) could not in any situation ever be threatened again! Full stop! The rules makes it so, that any epic spell can be made instantaneously, at zero cost at Spellcraft DC 0. So epic magic makes anyone who has access to it basically immune to all... because that is actually a permanent spell you could create with the epic spell rules... so you can't nuke others who have access to epic magic, because well they are immune. There is really no MAD to consider, because you cannot be destroyed yourself ever after gaining access to it. At this level of play, there are no threats bar Lady of Pain or AO or some other cosmic entity, which has immunity piercing abilities. And even then, your contingencies would probably prevent even one such as AO or LoP from really hurting you.

I'm not trying to say your idea is bad, I'm simple saying apply the rules as written logically (as is somewhat the intent of Tippyverse as I understand it) and the worlds becomes a place where literally everyone has access to magic and unlimited money. No one works, because everything is created magically. There are no farming, no hunger, no drought, no war, no suffering... its just. Dial up a zodar, wish it to be done, or pay someone with your unlimited wealth! And this is not the work of high level arch mages, but level 1 commoners with UMD optimized just a bit...

Most if not all settings have gods which are by definition epic spellcasters and it seems to be in their benefit to not allow anyone else to become a epic level character as any epic level character could potentially infringe upon their domain of power. Therefore why would the gods ever allow anyone to become epic? For that matter, gods want followers and it is in their benefit to not allow any society to get to post scarcity level as people don't really need gods post scarcity after all what is the point of a god in a society where you are immortal and have need for nothing? So why wouldn't the gods just nuke any society that gets too close to post scarcity to keep their worshipers in their place?...

[Destro2119]

Uhhh, maybe the gods can be the ones who help them to get to Post-Scarcity in the first place?

I mean, in Starfinder the god of tech literally gives people FTL. I can't really picture a situation in which the people just forget about gods. In TP verse, clerics and churches would be extremely powerful due to healing alone.

I mean, gods are typically so far above mortals that anything they can do offensively can't even really affect them.

They have probably just coded in defenses for themselves that prevents epic magic from working on them.

[liquidformat]

Uhhh, maybe the gods can be the ones who help them to get to Post-Scarcity in the first place?

I mean, in Starfinder the god of tech literally gives people FTL. I can't really picture a situation in which the people just forget about gods. In TP verse, clerics and churches would be extremely powerful due to healing alone.

I mean, gods are typically so far above mortals that anything they can do offensively can't even really affect them.

They have probably just coded in defenses for themselves that prevents epic magic from working on them.

I am sorry but no you can't. You can either have gods and 'cycle of rolling apocalai' or you can have tippyverse; they are mutually exclusive choices.

If you have gods then you have all the gods and if you have all the gods you are always going to have a very good reason for wars since there are gods with the mission of destroying other gods. As long as you have gods and keep the faith the eternal war for mortals' souls will continue to go on and mortals will have a 'valid' reason to go about attacks of mutual destruction.

Also since when do clerics need the gods, the gods just get in the way of optimization since they restrict your domain choice and clerics function just fine without any choosing any god.
OT is what Tippyverse is all about and gods just get in the way of that.

[Destro2119]

Well yeah, in TPverse by canon all gods are essentially just overdeities who don't even really do anything.

In a setting like Golarion or PFverse, you would probably have gods just subtly nudging people away from infinite magic traps (which BTW do exist in canon in that game's universe) and more towards a progression we IRL would find to be more sane.

[Heliomance]

Not even sure that makes any sense... The first person to gain access to epic magic (and assuming the rules are being run as RAW) could not in any situation ever be threatened again! Full stop! The rules makes it so, that any epic spell can be made instantaneously, at zero cost at Spellcraft DC 0. So epic magic makes anyone who has access to it basically immune to all... because that is actually a permanent spell you could create with the epic spell rules... so you can't nuke others who have access to epic magic, because well they are immune. There is really no MAD to consider, because you cannot be destroyed yourself ever after gaining access to it. At this level of play, there are no threats bar Lady of Pain or AO or some other cosmic entity, which has immunity piercing abilities.

I'm not seeing how that negates my campaign backstory, tbh. I didn't say the Epic casters were able to hurt each other, I said their attempts to were threatening the very fabric of reality - so the whole of Mechanus came down like a hammer. Primus Himself absolutely counts as "some other cosmic entity".

[Destro2119]

On the topic of "epic magic", I'm more on with the whole concept being more plot events that allow things like terraforming a planet/reanimating all undead.

I'm ok with like offensive blast epic spells that are basically War Spells but faster but I'll agree that truly cheese things like trying to rewrite the rules of the game to force AoOs or something is something that will be shut down.

[Clistenes]

Do you guys know about some good threads about how to implement the Tippyverse in 5e?

I'm looking for inspiration for a 5e post-scarcity Magocracy...

[Silly Name]

Do you guys know about some good threads about how to implement the Tippyverse in 5e?

I'm looking for inspiration for a 5e post-scarcity Magocracy...

A lot of the things that are used in the Tippyverse don't exist in 5e. It's certainly possible to make something similiar, but the different rules will produce different results.

I'd start by seeking out Simulacrum/Wish loops that can produce infinite wealth.

[Clistenes]

A lot of the things that are used in the Tippyverse don't exist in 5e. It's certainly possible to make something similiar, but the different rules will produce different results.

Yep. That's the reason I am asking... I'm not sure how to do it...

Fabricate and Teleportation Circles are still a thing, so high level Wizards could still dominate the market, it just would take longer to achieve...

The fact that crafting rules don't require to spend xp, only work, time and resources would help, though... they could industrialize magic and create factories that churn low level magic items...

Also, according to Waterdeep Heist, apparently Constructs can create more Constructs using relatively simple resources, so we could have 1.-Fully automated factories, and 2.-Star Wars style droids everywhere...

[Schadenfreuda]

To address the original question of the thread:

Telportation Circle Is something of a red herring as far as Tippyverse dynamics go. Create a Gate into a private Demiplane (or any other plane) and another back out again and make the Gates permanent, and you can connect two cities with railroads or (very narrow) ship canals. However it's accomplished mechanically, the existence of easy teleportation magic means that all civilisations will naturally concentrate all their wealth and power into small and highly-defensible locations, just like how normal civilisations traditionally hid their cities and wealth behind walls. The existence of magic means that these cities will all-but-inevitably become self-contained post-scarcity arcologies ruled by mages (since no one can arrest or control a high-level mage if they aren't also a mage), though the details certainly will vary, but the concentration of wealth and power in magically-defensible cities is certain.

For that matter, the fact that Gate exists means that Tippyverse-style city-states will also become the dominant settlement pattern everywhere in their multiverse, not just on their home plane, because nothing about the other planes change the fundamental dynamic of teleportation magic and the need to defend against it and to a high-level mage or priest the difference between various planes is fairly academic.

How EmperorTippy described his world, the details I often disagree with, but the basic premise is sound if high-level mages exist the way the game rules describe.

[Zombulian]

I'm currently running a game in a post-Tippyverse. Backstory is that the cold war state was broken when someone discovered epic magic, global thaumonuclear war broke out, until the fabric of reality was threatened to the point that Mechanus invaded and bombed the Prime back to the stone age, pretty much eradicating magic. Some centuries later, magic is just starting to leak back into the world, and the PCs are exploring the ruins of the ancient cities trying to work out what happened.

I'm running a very similar game!

[rel]

It's worth reiterating that a setting with no tippyverse style vaults, a setting in the golden age of tippy and a setting where the great cities have fallen to the inexorable march of time can very plausibly look identical to the players until they hit very high levels and go looking for high level towns to sell their spare artifacts and commission the construction of new ones.