Pricing continuous expeditious retreat

[InvisibleBison]

How much should a continuous item of expeditious retreat cost? As a 1st level spell with a 1/minute per level duration, the guidelines suggest 4,000 gp. But the most comparable item is the boots of striding and springing, which are less effective and more expensive. Should the price of a continuous item of expeditious retreat be increased to be more expensive than BoSS, and if so by how much? On the other hand, BoSS are a fairly ineptly designed item; why shouldn't someone who comes up with a more efficient design be able to profit thereby?

[Rebel7284]

You’ll notice, however, that not all the items presented here adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between, say, a ring of fire resistance and boots of speed—two very dissimilar items. Each of the magic items presented here was examined and modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some DM judgment calls. Use good sense when assigning prices, using the items in this book as examples.


Therefore
a) You should base the price of items on the price of existing items when possible.
b) The cost guidelines are explicitly guidelines that are supposed to give you a starting point.

[AvatarVecna]

The item creation guidelines are frequently quite useful in determining the worth of various items, but they tend to break down when it comes to spells. This is less because the guidelines are bad in theory, and more because the relative usefulness of a spell for its duration and spell level isn't exactly the most precisely calculated thing - and that's even when the spell has only one version, let alone a spell that exists at different levels and caster levels for different classes.

According to guidelines, an item of continuous Haste would cost 120,000 gp. Is that reasonable? Depends on the table.

You could also purchase a version built by a novice trapsmith that costs 8,000 gp. Is that reasonable? Depends on the table.

Boots of Speed cost 12,000 gp, and give you 10 rounds per day (split up as you desire). BoS is a CL 10 item, so boosting the CL to the point that it could last all day (CL 14,400) would change the cost to 17,280,000 gp. Is that reasonable? Depends on the table.

Let's change tactics, since that requires a stupidly-high CL. Stapling an extra BoS on top (effectively slotless) is roughly x2 cost. We'd need 1440 to cover the whole day, so with one costing standard, and the rest costing double, that brings our price to 34,548,000 gp. Is that reasonable? Depends on the table.

Let's say your DM lets you build feats into items using the A&EG rules, and you decide to build Blinding Speed into an item. DM eyeballs the two prereqs (Dex 25 and Epic) and says they'll run 10k each, bringing the cost of each Blinding Speed feat built in to 30,000 gp. So an item letting you use Blinding Speed all day would cost 86,400,000 gp. Is that reasonable? Depends on the table.

None of these are official pricing. They're all extrapolations of the guidelines. What is "fair" is going to depend on the table in question.

[Zaq]

The important part isn't expeditious retreat per se. The important part is a +30 ft enhancement bonus to speed. Price based on that.

Spitballing, boots of striding and springing have a +10 ft enhancement bonus and a +5 on Jump for 5,500. Competence bonuses are fairly consistently priced at bonus squared times 100 gp, so the Jump portion is allegedly 2,500 of the 5,500, leaving 3,000 for the speed bonus.

Now, we don't have a standardized formula for speed bonuses, so this is interpretation from here on out. Most scaling bonuses in D&D have a squared factor in them; they're not linear. Consider bonuses to AC (whether standalone or pluses on armor), pluses on weapons, bonuses to base stats, etc. They all have a scale factor. So I'd interpret the base speed formula, based on the boots of striding and springing, to be 3,000 gp x (bonus, in units of 10 ft)^2. So 3,000 for +10, 12,000 for +20, 27,000 for +30.

That's not RAW and it's sure as hell not the only potentially logical way to price it. But that's the logic I'd follow.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You should always use existing items as a guideline first, and Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) second to that.

After the DMG errata, the minimum caster level of an item being created is that which is required to meet all of its prerequisites (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel). So if an item requires Craft Wondrous Item, the minimum caster level is 3rd, even if it only has a 1st level spell.

Boots of Striding and Springing (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofStridingandSpringing) is 5,500 gp, it has a +5 competence bonus to jump checks (5x5x100=2500 gp) and a continuous Longstrider (spell level 1 x minimum caster level 1 x 2,000 gp x 1.5 for additional effects = 3,000 gp). However, this item was published prior to the DMG errata, and no existing items were updated to match what the errata changed. So a new custom wondrous item would have a minimum caster level of 3rd for that spell's pricing calculation.

So Expeditious Retreat is a 1st level spell that lasts 1 minute/level, so spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp x 2 for duration. As a wondrous item the minimum caster level is 3rd, for a minimum price tag of 12,000 gp.

[Telonius]

For a centaur, 3,000gp (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#horseshoesofSpeed).

[aglondier]

The important part isn't expeditious retreat per se. The important part is a +30 ft enhancement bonus to speed. Price based on that.

Spitballing, boots of striding and springing have a +10 ft enhancement bonus and a +5 on Jump for 5,500. Competence bonuses are fairly consistently priced at bonus squared times 100 gp, so the Jump portion is allegedly 2,500 of the 5,500, leaving 3,000 for the speed bonus.

Now, we don't have a standardized formula for speed bonuses, so this is interpretation from here on out. Most scaling bonuses in D&D have a squared factor in them; they're not linear. Consider bonuses to AC (whether standalone or pluses on armor), pluses on weapons, bonuses to base stats, etc. They all have a scale factor. So I'd interpret the base speed formula, based on the boots of striding and springing, to be 3,000 gp x (bonus, in units of 10 ft)^2. So 3,000 for +10, 12,000 for +20, 27,000 for +30.

That's not RAW and it's sure as hell not the only potentially logical way to price it. But that's the logic I'd follow.

Seems reasonable...and better thought out than most I've seen.

[Troacctid]

It costs 9,000 gp, per Tome of Magic p79.

[Thurbane]

The important part isn't expeditious retreat per se. The important part is a +30 ft enhancement bonus to speed. Price based on that.

Spitballing, boots of striding and springing have a +10 ft enhancement bonus and a +5 on Jump for 5,500. Competence bonuses are fairly consistently priced at bonus squared times 100 gp, so the Jump portion is allegedly 2,500 of the 5,500, leaving 3,000 for the speed bonus.

Now, we don't have a standardized formula for speed bonuses, so this is interpretation from here on out. Most scaling bonuses in D&D have a squared factor in them; they're not linear. Consider bonuses to AC (whether standalone or pluses on armor), pluses on weapons, bonuses to base stats, etc. They all have a scale factor. So I'd interpret the base speed formula, based on the boots of striding and springing, to be 3,000 gp x (bonus, in units of 10 ft)^2. So 3,000 for +10, 12,000 for +20, 27,000 for +30.

That's not RAW and it's sure as hell not the only potentially logical way to price it. But that's the logic I'd follow.

If I were to do it for my game, this sounds fair to me.

[Railak]

It costs 9,000 gp, per Tome of Magic p79.

That's at will not continuous. While effectively not that different, you still need to spend a standard action every 5 minutes to reactivate it.

Also it says "creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell." Under magic item creation, so you can make it with a caster level of 1

The boots of striding and springing are only 2000 gp without the +5 to jump, and their cost completely fits with the magic item creation rules in the back. So generally I'd agree that the price of expeditious retreat should be 4,000 gp using the item creation rules. But at the same time it is completely up to the DM of your game whether that is acceptable or not. They might be 100% okay with that price, or they might be like, something like that should be worth twice as much.

[Thurbane]

That's at will not continuous. While effectively not that different, you still need to spend a standard action every 5 minutes to reactivate it

Also worth noting, that's for a non-slotted item. And subjects you to the influence of a vestige, which may involve not eating or drinking (including no potions).

[Railak]

Also worth noting, that's for a non-slotted item. And subjects you to the influence of a vestige, which may involve not eating or drinking (including no potions).

The only reason I pointed it out was they're looking for the price of continuous, not at will. I'd personally be fine with the at will version of most spells over the continuous, but again it's not the info they're looking for. Oh and the price of even that follows the magic item creation guidelines 1x5x1800=9000

[Crake]

Spitballing, boots of striding and springing have a +10 ft enhancement bonus and a +5 on Jump for 5,500. Competence bonuses are fairly consistently priced at bonus squared times 100 gp, so the Jump portion is allegedly 2,500 of the 5,500, leaving 3,000 for the speed bonus.

Actually the speed portion is 2,000gp, because it's the cheaper effect on the boots, it is multiplied by 1.5x.

The cost is derived from the longstrider spell, which is CL1 * SL1 * 2000gp continuous, with no price modifier for duration, because it's an hour/level spell.


You should always use existing items as a guideline first, and Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) second to that.

After the DMG errata, the minimum caster level of an item being created is that which is required to meet all of its prerequisites (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel). So if an item requires Craft Wondrous Item, the minimum caster level is 3rd, even if it only has a 1st level spell.

Boots of Striding and Springing (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofStridingandSpringing) is 5,500 gp, it has a +5 competence bonus to jump checks (5x5x100=2500 gp) and a continuous Longstrider (spell level 1 x minimum caster level 1 x 2,000 gp x 1.5 for additional effects = 3,000 gp). However, this item was published prior to the DMG errata, and no existing items were updated to match what the errata changed. So a new custom wondrous item would have a minimum caster level of 3rd for that spell's pricing calculation.

So Expeditious Retreat is a 1st level spell that lasts 1 minute/level, so spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp x 2 for duration. As a wondrous item the minimum caster level is 3rd, for a minimum price tag of 12,000 gp.

While the minimum caster level is 3, it's clear from boots of striding and springing that that does not affect the price since it has no effect on the spell's effect, otherwise the speed portion would be valued at 6000gp not 2000gp. As such it would seem that the value of a permanent expeditious retreat item SHOULD be 4000gp.

[Fizban]

And of course, there's pricing based on how much your players would pay, directly reflecting how powerful the item is through their eyes.

In my experience, "continuous expeditious retreat" items, if available, are effectively mandatory- because one person will realize that cost is too low to pass up, at least one more person will believe them, and then the whole party has to have them just in order to travel at the same speed. Note that regarding the Horseshoes, it should be obvious that these normally apply to either a fragile "item" in the form of a normal horse, or a specific class feature that gives you a better horse, and relatively still represent only a 50-60% increase in speed rather than the 100+% a +30 is for standard PCs.

The power of pushing your expected move speed from around 30' to around 60' is huge. The game normally expects you to have speed 30, with a charge of 60', and a sprint of 120' (the variance goes down to 20' or up to 40' for base 20's and barbarians of course). Fast monsters usually have a speed around 50-60' (Wolves, Fire Elementals, etc), and only crazy fast monsters like Air Elementals, dragons, and flying mounts (which are priced at some 10,000gp if the DM even allows you to get them) go beyond that. Tactical positioning depends on speed: if you have the speed to go the long way around, meatshields don't matter. If you have the speed to simply walk away while your foe can't catch up, melee foes don't matter. Many monsters are equipped with thrown weapons, close range spell effects, or similar abilities: doubling the entire party's speed means that those foes have even less chance to use those abilities, unless they are given tactically advantageous environments. The primary limitation on a rogue popping out of cover every turn is the move speed needed to get in and out: more speed, more reliable sneak attacks, whether via pop 'n shoot or wallking around AoOs to flank. And so on.


The multipliers given for spell duration of continuous items work sometimes, but not others, particularly when compared to the daily charged item costs (where 5/day is revealed as the equivalent of "continuous").

They charge 1/2 for a spell that's already 24 hours, but a 1/day is 1/5 normal price- okay, that's 2.5 castings, plenty enough dispel insurance for "continuous" or recast insurance for passing the item around.
They charge x1 for a spell that's hour/level, but that duration is massively dependent on caster level. For some spells "1 hour/level" is effectively 8+ hours, or a whole day of travel, while others it's only 1-3 hours, not even half that. This is why low level spells such as Mage Armor are the first and most obvious break of the formula guidelines (and why caster level based durations were a bad idea in general).
They charge x2 for a spell that's minute/level, and things really start falling apart. So that's 5/day to cover "all" encounters, with x2 for dispelling insurance, but once again the true duration is a problem. At 1 minute or even 3 minutes, and any amount of unplanned encounters, you're going to need to activate that on the first round of combat sometimes- but a "continuous" item does not require that, giving you free actions. And there's still the problem that spells of that duration aren't even guaranteed to last through the encounter, especially if you're presumed to be casting them long enough before combat that you never waste actions.
And finally, x4 for a spell that's in rounds/level. Except, I can't recall even a single published item off the top of my head that is actually an unlimited continuous item based on a rounds/level duration, and the disconnect of a spell that even at the mightiest caster level only lasts for 2-4 minutes, instead lasting forever, should be obvious (no, Persistent spell does not count for the 3.0/Tome and Blood/3.5 establishment of pricing guidelines, and if it did it would be at +lol level).

If you look at the existing continuous items (particularly the DMG, where splatbooks should have been taking their cues from), you'll notice that continuous items are usually based on hour/level spells- or possibly, hour/level spells were written mostly to compare with continuous items. Stat boosters were hour/level originally in 3.0, +10 speed is Longstrider, armor and weapon enhancement have hour/level spells, etc. Fly was 10 min/level, so it did at least start at nearly an hour duration, though the 3.0 DMG had some bugged prices to fix. In fact, the biggest justification for continuous Expeditious Retreat is back in 3.0, when the item flat doubled your move speed for the same price it is now: they actually brought in the Longstrider spell and switched the boots to using that with a flat +10 feet for 3.5, while fixing flight item pricing.

Which I think should make it pretty clear how appropriate "continuous" items of short duration spells are, as in, not at all. Even daily items of duration spells should have minimum caster levels of 3, 5, 6, or something appropriate to give them a proper duration per use, and anything that lets you ignore casting time should probably start at a bare minimum x2, likely x4 cost.


So, how would I price a continuous +30' speed? As an "hour"/level spell of at least 3rd level, similar to flight or polymorph in magnitude of speed, but with a longer duration. Which would mean you'd still need to stick to a daily item to get it at any sort of convenient cost, and the continuous formula starting point is 30,000gp. This is also high enough that even a 10th level character's WBL is not enough to get the item down to below half WBL, and it will take an even higher level character to seriously consider buying it. And even better, it's got serious competition, since the DMG Boots of Speed* (which I'm fairly certain are a stealth "expected item" from development) give +30 as part of their Haste effect on demand, a much better item for limited combat movement.

If forced on the issue, I'd simply remove Expeditious Retreat rather than capitulate to a massive shift in expected PC speeds. Some low level spells (particularly speed and movement effects) are leveled more as class features than magitech components- similarly, I allow the low-level teleport spells, but have banned essentially all teleportation items less than 10,000gp. But if you're gonna make a stink about wanting everything to be formula magitech, I can just gut the spells instead.

However, that price does come conveniently close to the formula Zaq has come up with- I'd have started with 5' increments from a base of 2,000 (counting the 50% multi-function markup), but would have immediately hit a wall on turning that into a price. And 12,000 is again a significant limiting factor, while only pushing most characters to 50', and the same price as the much more combat-functional Boots of Speed. So yeah, let's go with that formula instead- I expect it would mean a lot of 10th+ characters picking up a +20' speed item as a matter of course, but by that level overland travel is accomplished via instantaneous or 20mph+ magic, and foes do have a ton more positioning and movement options. So yeah, let's go with that.


*Incidentally, Boots of Speed are also the counter to my assertion that ignoring casting times should warrant another x2-x4 multiplier, since they're exactly formula price for 1/day CL 10 Haste, and yet they let you not only free activate but also divide the duration at no cost. Which I think is even more evidence that one of the expected teamwork/magic items at high levels when the game was designed included Haste/Mass Haste, with Boots of Speed as the backup**. Which actually means that my usual assertion the "arcanist" role has absolutely zero required spells (unlike the Cleric's required list of status removal), would be wrong, since all arcanists were expected to have Haste. And this shows why non-casters look so bad in a vacuum, because at 10th+ they are in fact short an attack. A natural fix then is to remove all Haste effects, add an extra attack at full BAB to all characters at a certain level (possibly part of BAB, or just HD, or an "extra effort" ability), and reduce WBL a smidge to compensate for everyone getting build in "Boots of Speed"/free Mass Haste.
**Which is then further supported by their being 8,000gp in 3.0, essentially the same as a +2 weapon. Though they're not as prevalent on the Enemies and Allies "iconic" statblocks as I would expect, one on the Paladin and one on a Wizard- but all the arcanists have Haste, and Mass Haste if available. Ironically, Boots of Striding and Springing make a huge showing as well, but again, a full doubling at the time, which had no limits on stacking with Haste when every party cast Haste, was probably a strong choice.
-And while I'm thinking about 3.0 Haste- it can probably also take some of the heat for blasting spells not dealing enough damage. Because if the assumption is that after 10th or so you're always casting two spells per round, then blasters actually deal 2d6/level/round. And this accounts for "never running out of spells"- well no, they used to burn through them twice as fast, so of course the totals look ridiculous in 3.5.
--Heck, with two spells per round, failing a 50/50 SR check is fine, and gaining +2-4 on them is nice and noticeable but hardly critical, 'cause you've got a second spell. Nerf Haste, suddenly SR is a terrible boogeyman, spells that used to allow SR because duh magic, ignore SR because uh. . . conjured non-magical magical force?, and a *spell* is buffed to make you basically ignore it entirely. Casters are suddenly super critical of what they can do in a single spell, because they only ever get one, and so damage spells need to be impossible to stop just to "compete" with disabling spells, which are suddenly more attractive, while consuming fewer slots, allowing more room for stacking an ever-growing list of defenses.

I think the Haste nerf may have had some unintended consequences.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

While the minimum caster level is 3, it's clear from boots of striding and springing that that does not affect the price since it has no effect on the spell's effect, otherwise the speed portion would be valued at 6000gp not 2000gp. As such it would seem that the value of a permanent expeditious retreat item SHOULD be 4000gp.

As I said, existing items weren't updated when the DMG errata on minimum caster level was released. That's why most of the published rings still have a caster level of less than 12. Those items' prices are set in stone, if a PC were to craft Boots of Striding and Springing it wouldn't matter if they're doing so at caster level of 5, or 10, or 20, the item's caster level would be higher but the price would be unchanged.

However, newly created custom items must still fall within those rules (but a DM is welcome to make exceptions in their own game). Prior to the DMG errata my group implemented a minimum caster level of 5 for any and all custom items, simply because of exactly this same item being priced at only 3,000 gp at the minimum caster level to cast that spell. Enforcing the RAW minimum caster level when pricing items is fair.

[Troacctid]

That's at will not continuous. While effectively not that different, you still need to spend a standard action every 5 minutes to reactivate it.

Also worth noting, that's for a non-slotted item. And subjects you to the influence of a vestige, which may involve not eating or drinking (including no potions).
If that's an issue for you, you could try rapid wrath for 11,872 gp. It's continuous, and even comes with a magic weapon attached. (Ghostwalk p66.)

[Crake]

As I said, existing items weren't updated when the DMG errata on minimum caster level was released. That's why most of the published rings still have a caster level of less than 12. Those items' prices are set in stone, if a PC were to craft Boots of Striding and Springing it wouldn't matter if they're doing so at caster level of 5, or 10, or 20, the item's caster level would be higher but the price would be unchanged.

However, newly created custom items must still fall within those rules (but a DM is welcome to make exceptions in their own game). Prior to the DMG errata my group implemented a minimum caster level of 5 for any and all custom items, simply because of exactly this same item being priced at only 3,000 gp at the minimum caster level to cast that spell. Enforcing the RAW minimum caster level when pricing items is fair.

Except boots of striding and springing HAVE a CL of 3, but they aren't PRICED based on that CL.

[AvatarVecna]

1) Boots Of Striding & Springing aren't based on a particular specific spell, though, so I wouldn't imagine calculating their effect requires CL to factor in directly anyway. The more useful DMG examples in this instance would be low-level wands and potions, which have minimum CL 5 and 2 respectively. If there's 1st lvl wands that

2) I think we have a different idea of what errata is? When you say "DMG Errata", what I'm thinking is that there was the Rule For How CL-Based Items Work, and examples of items that used that rule, and these two things didn't match. And the reason they didn't match is, the designers thought the Rule works differently when they made the examples, so later when they saw they didn't match, they changed the Rule to match how they designed the Examples. Instead, you seem to be presenting the errata as "the Rule and Examples matched up, but they later decided the Rule should work different, so they changed the Rule but not the Examples, which get grandfathered in, but everything going forward is supposed to follow the new Rule". If you're correct, then spell-replicating items in the MIC should follow this Rule, yes?

Cont=Continuous
UA=Use-Activated
CW=Command Word

I focused mostly on rings, wands, and staves because they're high-CL prereq, so a much better chance of finding low-level spells that have been built in, to see if they follow the new Rule or not. I didn't put these in the table, because they're not replicating spell effects, but like...I kinda expected rings that don't replicate spells to have at least CL 12 by default, and there's a lot of them that are inexplicably lower. Like...there's 40 ring items that start with "Ring" or "Rings", and 22 of them have CL less than 12, including the ones listed on this table. It's weird.

All the runestaffs had at least CL 12, although they don't have CL factor into their price at all, so that's a whole different issue. I didn't see any actual staffs that didn't have other stuff tacked on to make the price calculation wonky.



Item
MIC pg
Effect
Actual Price
Old Rule Price
New Rule Price
Notes


Lockpicking Ring
114
Open Lock +5 (competence)
1/day UA "Knock"
3500
4900+
12100+
"+" depends on what tax you have to pay to combo the items


Ring Of Antivenom
121
1/day CW "Neutralize Poison"
8000
10080
17280
Is explicitly listed at CL 7 despite being a ring


Ring Of Floating
123
Cont "Float"
2000
4000
48000
Is explicitly listed at CL 1 despite being a ring


Ring Of Waterbreathing
128
Cont "Water Breathing"
6000
30000
72000
Is explicitly listed at CL 5 despite being a ring


Eternal Wand (0th lvl)
159
2/day CW "0th lvl spell"
460
360
1800
Is explicitly listed at CL 1 despite being a wand


Eternal Wand (1st lvl)
159
2/day CW "1st lvl spell"
820
720
3600
Is explicitly listed at CL 1 despite being a wand


Eternal Wand (2nd lvl)
159
2/day CW "2nd lvl spell"
4420
4320
7200
Is explicitly listed at CL 3 despite being a wand




Even outside the DMG, this rule isn't followed very well. I didn't exactly the scour the book looking for examples, I just checked the three obvious things that immediately came to mind, and found a bunch that didn't follow the new Rule.

[Feldar]

For a centaur, 3,000gp (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#horseshoesofSpeed).

I would go with 3k for a human too, but that's just me.

If this thread has made anything clear, it's that magic item prices are just whacked.

[Crake]

1) Boots Of Striding & Springing aren't based on a particular specific spell, though, so I wouldn't imagine calculating their effect requires CL to factor in directly anyway. The more useful DMG examples in this instance would be low-level wands and potions, which have minimum CL 5 and 2 respectively. If there's 1st lvl wands that

Except they are though. They are based on a permanent longstrider spell (2000gp xCL1 xSL1, no modifier for 1hour/level duration), with a second ability of +5 to jumping, which is 2,500gp. Since it's two special abilities, the cheaper ability has a 1.5x modifier, so 2000gp for the movement speed becomes 3000gp, and then +2500 for the skill bonus, 5,500gp, exactly the price of the boots.