OOTS #1228 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Soup du Jour]

Looks like Serini has been keeping an eye on basically everything that's been going on. Wonder what she knows about the Order, at this point?

[Peelee]

I did not know I wanted an art upgrade to the Azure City throne room fight until now.

[RMS Oceanic]

That was insanely specific. Did Dorukan or Girard have some sort of super-scry set up? Or is it just a coincidence that Miko used his sword?

I'm getting a better handle on Serini now, it feels like a more organic conflict. Will be interesting when the Order gets mentioned.

[RMS Oceanic]

I did not know I wanted an art upgrade to the Azure City throne room fight until now.

Miko's fall would be a good scene for such a treatment.

[EmperorSarda]

Looks like Serini has been keeping an eye on basically everything that's been going on. Wonder what she knows about the Order, at this point?

Sounds like she definitely has access to scrying and divinations.

But it also sounds like she doesn't have the full information. It sounds like she thinks Xykon is the true threat, when he's not. She doesn't have the information on Hel, or the Dark One.

Cause with Hel's bet, there's no way O'Chul would break the gate. Breaking the gate at this instance has the same effect of Xykon and Redcloak taking the gate; the gods destroy the world and start over.

There is more at stake than Serini realizes.

The question is, do the paladin's know about Hel's gambit? And the godsmoot and the Dark One?

[Ninja Dragon]

Serini makes a very sensible point, not just about the paladins, but also the Order. When it comes to preventing Redcloak from taking control of the multivese, or the Snarl from destroying everything, losing the planet may be a better fate.

Then again, considering they may be dooming billions of future planets to destruction by Snarl in the process, that is still a pretty crappy solution compared to actually getting the deal with Redcloak. But neither the paladins nor Serini know that, and when it comes to the battle, they still may prefer that fate over Xykon or Redcloak winning.

So it's impossible to guarantee nobody will want to destroy the gate. The question now is what plan does Serini have in place of that

[Schroeswald]

I’d like to say maybe this will shut up arguements about Serini being evil but I’ve been here far too long to expect that, maybe it will slow down though.

[dancrilis]

Good for Serini, 'no intention' is indeed the kind of thing people say to indicate they should not be trusted.

[Dausuul]

I'm starting to really like Serini.

Admittedly, taking the mickey from paladins is like shooting fish in a barrel, but still.

[iTookUrNick]

Somehow, Serini reminds me of Yoda, more so in this strip. :smallbiggrin:

[Ivrytwr]

Wonder how Serini is getting her information?
Do love watching paladins squirm under their value system ...
Thanks Giant!

[RMS Oceanic]

Serini makes a very sensible point, not just about the paladins, but also the Order. When it comes to preventing Redcloak from taking control of the multivese, or the Snarl from destroying everything, losing the planet may be a better fate.

Then again, considering they may be dooming billions of future planets to destruction by Snarl in the process, that is still a pretty crappy solution compared to actually getting the deal with Redcloak. But neither the paladins nor Serini know that, and when it comes to the battle, they still may prefer that fate over Xykon or Redcloak winning.

So it's impossible to guarantee nobody will want to destroy the gate. The question now is what plan does Serini have in place of that

Well Roy sounds like he's made the opposite determination O-Chul did in the throne room. He knows this is for keeps, so will strive to avoid being put in that situation. But then the question is how anyone can possibly prove that? By proving they can beat Xykon, I guess.

[fuschiawarrior]

What a schock that Serini had sensible reasons to capture the paladins and was not in fact evil.

Anyways this indicate that Serini will treat the Order much in the same way that she is treating Lien and O-Chul since they are responsible for the destruction of two gates.

[Dr.Zero]

Her take seems very similar to Xykon, when he said that he didn't want to destroy the world, only to dominate it. And she seems to prefer that, and not without a reason: a world dominated by Xykon is still a world where Xykon can be beaten, or where people can maybe hide out of his reach. Hell, Xykon and RC are so powerful that to some extent they could already dominate their own country.

One might wonder if she knows that RC true plan is to give the Gate to the DO. But, if she knows, well, mostly the DO wants to renegotiate the goblinoids' place in the world.

So, yes, if X and RC can't be stopped, it makes sense to at least NOT destroying the gates.

Edit: and I see I've been ninjaed by Ninja Dragon (quite ironic!) on this point.

[snowblizz]

It's stuff like this why I say bonking paladins is good thing just on general principle.

[Agi Hammerthief]

nice corner you got that paladin in to :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

I did not know I wanted an art upgrade to the Azure City throne room fight until now. In another thread, I opined that the whole of War and XP in the new art style would please me to no end. But that's not happening.

But it also sounds like she doesn't have the full information. It also indicates that she, like Girard, salivates like Pavlov's dog when presented with a Paladin even though her style is different.

There is more at stake than Serini realizes. I suspect that her entire focus is "the world and everything, and everyone, in it" and she has not been cut in on the deity level issues at hand.

I’d like to say maybe this will shut up arguements about Serini being evil but I’ve been here far too long to expect that We have a winner. :smallsmile:

What a schock that Serini had sensible reasons to capture the paladins and was not in fact evil. Sensible from her point of view, and considering what she does know, but not what she doesn't.
(EDIT: I keep spelling things wrongly :smallannoyed: )

[GregTD]

So she's aware of the fight at Azure City, and totally unaware of the Godsmoot?

[Peelee]

It's stuff like this why I say bonking paladins is good thing just on general principle.

I think you just hate paladins.

[Dragonus45]

Good for Serini, 'no intention' is indeed the kind of thing people say to indicate they should not be trusted.

What? No. Saying you don't intend to do a thing is just a way of being honest that you haven't ruled it out but aren't going into a situation with it on your list if initially acceptable ideas.

[GregTD]

Looks like Serini has been keeping an eye on basically everything that's been going on. Wonder what she knows about the Order, at this point?

Nope

She missed the Godsmoot

Since, unless I'm totally missing the boat, the Gods will be destroying the world if Xykon gets near to controlling it.

The Paladins are a possibility of doom, failure to stop Xykon is a certainty.

No?


As are the vast majority of people in OoTS land (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0986.html). (Wrecan's point on the secret mission)

I think more people are aware of what happened at the Godsmoot, than are aware of how the Azure City Gate was destroyed.

I also find it amusing that Girard had a serious stick up his backside about "each of us will leave the other alone", and here Sirini was clearly violating that rule

[KorvinStarmast]

So she's aware of the fight at Azure City, and totally unaware of the Godsmoot? As are the vast majority of people in OoTS land (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0986.html). (Wrecan's point on the secret mission)


The Paladins are a possibility of doom, failure to stop Xykon is a certainty.
Nice way of putting that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It is an interesting question: whether or not it's better to let Xykon take control of the final Gate or to blow it up. Clearly, Serini takes the former stance, but I'm not (and I don't think anyone should be) entirely sure she has the right of it. It seems like she does not know much about Redcloak's intentions here and I wonder if that would change her thoughts. The main issue is no one really knows what will happen when the last gate is destroyed. Will the Snarl immediately break loose? It seemed content to chill when the rifts were originally opening, but there's clearly something lurking in the Western gate.

Of course, this will all be moot if the Order destroys the Gate anyway while Serini's distracted. :smalltongue:


I did not know I wanted an art upgrade to the Azure City throne room fight until now.

110% agreed.

[RMS Oceanic]

So she's aware of the fight at Azure City, and totally unaware of the Godsmoot?

Aren't Godsmoots (Godsmeet?) a really secret affair?

[Windscion]

Serini makes a strong case.
Whether Roy and/or Durkon can convince her otherwise, remains to be seen.

This does raise a question: Does Serini know that V has been attempting to contact her? I am thinking probably not, that she is completely blocked.

[snowblizz]

I think you just hate paladins.

I've always suspected I was Chaotic.

[Morgaln]

That throne room was protected from scrying by a spell powerful enough to keep Xykon from looking inside, yet Serini seems to know what happened there.I wonder how she got that information.

[Shadespyre]

A bit confused - is everyone else reading this as Serini having scryed the Azure City events? Because until I came here, I saw this as O-Chul's flashback, reminding us of why he can't take the oath as first offered?

[Quild]

So she's aware of the fight at Azure City, and totally unaware of the Godsmoot?

But the event of the Godsmoot makes it even more important not to destroy the Gate. As stated by Roy 4 strips ago.

Serini seems to know already that breaking the Gates is a bad idea. I don't get why she seems to think that "cease to exist" (last panel of previous book) is a better option though. Since it would mean that the Snarl got free and destroyed everything.

[Dr.Zero]

Aren't Godsmoots (Godsmeet?) a really secret affair?

Personally I think that she might have taken the liberty to check the team of the dude -the dark human- who tried to solo Xykon.
And the other dude -the fair elf- who tried to solo Xykon later.
And the other dude -the fair human- who destroyed one of the gates at the start of the adventure.
Or the dude -again the dark human- who destroyed another one of the gates.

Scrying only the throne room (which, btw, afair was protected against scrying) of Azure City seems very specific and a bit myopic.
So it makes sense that she followed their movements, too.

But, again, I don't think the Godsmoot is relevant in any way. They are on an impasse, and nothing will happen there anymore.

[fuschiawarrior]

So she's aware of the fight at Azure City, and totally unaware of the Godsmoot?

It's probably because her setup to keep watch if the gates are destroyed is more through than the others Scribblers.


Sensible from her point of view, and considering what she does know, but not what she doesn't.

Yeah, she has holes in her knowledge and miscalculated but I think in the end the paladins and Serini will be allies.

[RMS Oceanic]

A bit confused - is everyone else reading this as Serini having scryed the Azure City events? Because until I came here, I saw this as O-Chul's flashback, reminding us of why he can't take the oath as first offered?

It's reading more like a logical inference, I think, with a bit of Soon's character to inform her. Xykon wouldn't have destroyed the gate, so someone must have. But who would make the call that denying him would be the best move?

[Good Coyote]

A bit confused - is everyone else reading this as Serini having scryed the Azure City events? Because until I came here, I saw this as O-Chul's flashback, reminding us of why he can't take the oath as first offered?

The panel was O-Chul's flashback. People suspect scrying because the specific wording of the oath that she offers suggests that she knows Miko smashed the gate with O-Chul's katana.

[snowblizz]

Serini makes a strong case.
Whether Roy and/or Durkon can convince her otherwise, remains to be seen.

This does raise a question: Does Serini know that V has been attempting to contact her? I am thinking probably not, that she is completely blocked.
I would bet on it. And it being one reason she is so well-informed.


It is an interesting question: whether or not it's better to let Xykon take control of the final Gate or to blow it up. Clearly, Serini takes the former stance, but I'm not (and I don't think anyone should be) entirely sure she has the right of it. It seems like she does not know much about Redcloak's intentions here and I wonder if that would change her thoughts. The main issue is no one really knows what will happen when the last gate is destroyed. Will the Snarl immediately break loose? It seemed content to chill when the rifts were originally opening, but there's clearly something lurking in the Western gate.

Of course, this will all be moot if the Order destroys the Gate anyway while Serini's distracted. :smalltongue:


The funny thing is, Xykon isn't the main threat (he can't do anything with a gate, other than blow one up), we know this but Serini does not seem to. I do believe we will know what happens should the last gate be lost. The gods won't have to wait for a vote and can immediately begin deconstructing the world losing some or many, though unlikely all or a majority of the souls it contains. Hel will rejoice.

Really looking forwards to Serini and the Order comparing notes though. I'm sensing a strong "I know better" form Serini.

[KorvinStarmast]

Of course, this will all be moot if the Order destroys the Gate anyway while Serini's distracted. :smalltongue: They have done it twice before, though Serini being distracted didn't figure into it.

Serini makes a strong case. Whether Roy and/or Durkon can convince her otherwise, remains to be seen. Roy has a better chance; Durkon's diplomacy skills are still in the "getting better" stage ...

Does Serini know that V has been attempting to contact her? I am thinking probably not, that she is completely blocked. Since she never met V before, as far as we can tell, not answering a spam phone call (sending) seems a rational choice by an epic level rogue who is more or less in hiding and doesn't necessarily want to be found due to what her mission is. I am sure she got the sendings and simply chose not to reply/acknowledge. (Granted: I am not crystal clear on how Sending works in 3.5e, so I may be missing a detail or two).

That throne room was protected from scrying by a spell powerful enough to keep Xykon from looking inside, yet Serini seems to know what happened there. I wonder how she got that information. Perhaps from Redcloak. :smallwink: or from whatever makes that dingus in Girard's pyramid (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html)work.

[Ghosty]

So she's aware of the fight at Azure City, and totally unaware of the Godsmoot?

Appears so.

If she's that aware of the Azure City throne room fight, she's also going to be aware of Roy intentionally destroying Girard's Gate. And maybe Elan blowing up Dorukan's. We haven't even gotten to V snuffing everyone of her crush's bloodline. Serini has a lot of reasons to potentially have a serious dislike for the Order.

Anyway, the big difference, obviously, between those earlier fights and any one involving her Gate, is that there aren't any spares anymore. I don't think the Paladins would destroy the last Gate, and cause the unmaking of everything (as far as they know), just to spite Xykon. I think that's pretty likely behavior from those two, and Serini should know that.

So she's got another, unstated as of yet, reason for not wanting to work with them.

[GregTD]

It is an interesting question: whether or not it's better to let Xykon take control of the final Gate or to blow it up. Clearly, Serini takes the former stance, but I'm not (and I don't think anyone should be) entirely sure she has the right of it.

Why are people writing like this is actually an option?

The Gods aren't going to let Xykon take the Gate. This is something we all know.

We assume Sirini doesn't know this. This makes are her reasoning worthless, because she's starting from false premises.

That doesn't make her evil. But it does make her wrong

[Dr.Zero]

Why are people writing like this is actually an option?

The Gods aren't going to let Xykon take the Gate. This is something we all know.


Like on wikipedia: citation needed.

[Good Coyote]

Since the throne room itself was warded, maybe Serini actually scryed on O-Chul saying "It was my blade that did the deed." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) and spotted the technicality. :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

The Gods aren't going to let Xykon take the Gate. This is something we all know. Hmm, they aren't going to let Redcloak have control of the gate since he is the Dark One's servant. If Xykon took control of the gate and then backstabbed Redcloak so that he doesn't have to share power - Xykon is all about power - he'd be narratively consistent (he uses Redcloack, and abuses him, and will have no need for him once he has the gate). In that case, the Gods might not like the situation the Gate is in but the threat to them isn't of the same magnitude as Redcloak having the gate and thus the Dark One having control of it. (Redcloak's plan to back stab Xykon is pretty well established, aside from the the joke about 'you can't sneak attack a liche since it's undead ' ... which is one of D&D 3.5e's stupider rules ... )

[Peelee]

Tnr gold on "Serini knows some things through the Oracle".

[Fyraltari]

As is typical of this forum it seems that people are reading way too much into what is probably just a lucky guess for thr sake of an end-of-page joke.


Somehow, Serini reminds me of Yoda, more so in this strip. :smallbiggrin:
Small, old, green, lives in hiding, likes to whack people with a stick and with and odd manner of speech? I have no idea why.

Edit: and I see I've been ninjaed by Ninja Dragon (quite ironic!) on this point.

"Ironic" doesn't mean "extremely appropriate".

[jidasfire]

No doubt a clever rogue like Serini has her own means of keeping up with the doings of the outside world, but let's not forget that V has been Sending to her semi-regularly and probably keeping her up to date on what the Order's been up to this whole time. The fact that Serini clearly chose not to respond means she's gathering the intel provided, but saw no reason to trust them or reciprocate. And now we probably know why. The Order themselves have destroyed two of the Gates, so why would she trust that they wouldn't destroy a third?

[danielxcutter]

Hmm, seems like Serini knows better about what kind of man Girard was now, then. She was obviously attracted to him when she was writing in her diary, but she flat-out describes him as "paranoid" here.

[Segev]

Would somebody please remind me: what are the consequences of Xykon getting the gate vs. it being destroyed?

I think I recall the Snarl being freed/world being destroyed by the gates all breaking (and this is the last one), but I am unsure now what Xykon's goals with the Gates are.

[MoonCat]

Oh, clever Serini.

Although the art upgrade does retroactively make Mr. Stiffly's role 'eating' the fat-free scone (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) rather less plausible.

[Stabbey]

It still would have required a good timing coincidence, but there is technically a way for Serini to have known O-Chul made a decision to destroy a gate, and that his katana destroyed a gate without seeing the throne room. See strip #663 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).

If Serini was scrying on O-Chul at that moment, she would have heard that. This is probably not what happened, but it's possible.

[RMS Oceanic]

Appears so.

If she's that aware of the Azure City throne room fight, she's also going to be aware of Roy intentionally destroying Girard's Gate. And maybe Elan blowing up Dorukan's. We haven't even gotten to V snuffing everyone of her crush's bloodline. Serini has a lot of reasons to potentially have a serious dislike for the Order.

Anyway, the big difference, obviously, between those earlier fights and any one involving her Gate, is that there aren't any spares anymore. I don't think the Paladins would destroy the last Gate, and cause the unmaking of everything (as far as they know), just to spite Xykon. I think that's pretty likely behavior from those two, and Serini should know that.

So she's got another, unstated as of yet, reason for not wanting to work with them.

I think she's operating on a base assumption: "You can't defeat Xykon, he's too strong." The fact it's two paladins here and not the Sapphire Guard is proof of that to her. So when they try and fail to beat him, what will they do? It's easy to have no intention of destroying the gate when you think it won't come to that to stop Xykon, but what if it does? May the Twelve Gods not test them.

Of course, this shows there's a lot Serini's not aware of. Hopefully some of that lot get discussed before the amnesia party.

[SlashDash]

It still would have required a good timing coincidence, but there is technically a way for Serini to have known O-Chul made a decision to destroy a gate, and that his katana destroyed a gate without seeing the throne room. See strip #663 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).

If Serini was scrying on O-Chul at that moment, she would have heard that. This is probably not what happened, but it's possible.

The throne room is protected from scrying. Remember even Xykon couldn't see into the room.

[RMS Oceanic]

Would somebody please remind me: what are the consequences of Xykon getting the gate vs. it being destroyed?

I think I recall the Snarl being freed/world being destroyed by the gates all breaking (and this is the last one), but I am unsure now what Xykon's goals with the Gates are.

Xykon's goals are basically use the Snarl as a doomsday weapon to conquer the world.

But that won't happen. Instead the Dark One will use the gate as Mutually Assured Destruction to get what he wants. And there's probably a risk that the Gods decide to destroy the world before he can do that.

[SlashDash]

Serini could have find out about what happened in the throne room in any number of ways.
She could have talked with Soon himself, she could have learned from the Oracle (or someone with similar abilities) or maybe there was some eye witness to the whole thing.
If O-Chul survived, there might have been another survivor.



The author has one an amazing job of tying up loose ends within the story since the very beginning so I see no reason to even beg the question as to how she did it because I know he'll explain it at some point.
And even if he doesn't, it's not like it's hard to make suggestions like I did above.

[Fyraltari]

Would somebody please remind me: what are the consequences of Xykon getting the gate vs. it being destroyed?

I think I recall the Snarl being freed/world being destroyed by the gates all breaking (and this is the last one), but I am unsure now what Xykon's goals with the Gates are.

Xykon and Redcloak plan to complete a ritual passed down by the Dark One requiring one powerful arcane spellcaster and one powerful divine spellcaster. While the arcane half of the ritual has been comitted to paper, the divine half is only known to whoever dons the Crimson Mantle. Recloak told Xykon that the Ritual would allow those who casted it to control the Snarl so that they could use it to conquer the world. That is a lie, the true purpose of the Ritual is to allow the Dark One to move a Gate (and the Rift it contains) to whatever Plan he wants at the time of his choosing. Since the Gates cannot contain the Snarl forever thid would allow thr Dark One to cower the other gods with the threat of eventually releasing the uncontrollable monster into their home dimensions (though he can't put the Snarl back into his prison once it escapes so it's a gun that can only fire once).

Xykon suspects Redcloak lied to him and was planning to use Tsukiko to take the goblin's place if needed. As Redcloak murdered Tsukiko it's unlikely the lich has more than suspiscions, though.

[King of Nowhere]

on the other hand, when o-chul tried to smash the gate, there were 2 more. it wasn't an immediate threat to exhistence.
this time it's the last gate. this time destroying the gate is not an option.
so, o-chul could probably swear truthfully that he would never destroy the last gate standing.

[Quild]

Would somebody please remind me: what are the consequences of Xykon getting the gate vs. it being destroyed?

I think I recall the Snarl being freed/world being destroyed by the gates all breaking (and this is the last one), but I am unsure now what Xykon's goals with the Gates are.

Xykon getting the Gate : The ritual is cast (except if Xykon finds the fishy thing), TDO gets control of the Gate and can send the Snarl on the Gods.

Destroying the Gate : The Snarl is likely free, can destroy existence in a few moments and attack Gods rather quickly afterwards.

[Nymrod]

So she's aware of the fight at Azure City, and totally unaware of the Godsmoot?

Or she knows what is in the Gate. The gods don't.

[Stabbey]

The throne room is protected from scrying. Remember even Xykon couldn't see into the room.

{scrubbed} that scene was not happening in the throne room.

[RMS Oceanic]

on the other hand, when o-chul tried to smash the gate, there were 2 more. it wasn't an immediate threat to exhistence.
this time it's the last gate. this time destroying the gate is not an option.
so, o-chul could probably swear truthfully that he would never destroy the last gate standing.

Serini's point is that it's easy to swear to defend the gate when you don't think you'll lose. The fact O-Chul decided to do it once is all the proof she needs that he could do it again.

[Nymrod]

Xykon getting the Gate : The ritual is cast (except if Xykon finds the fishy thing), TDO gets control of the Gate and can send the Snarl on the Gods.

Which is probably the only chance for the TDO to have reasonable leverage so that when the gods make him a counteroffer and ask for him to help them seal the Snarl with four color seals, he can actually believe them.

[Squire Doodad]

Good to see that Serini is at least being rational here. Better than another enemy.

[locksmith of lo]

oh, man! she really got him there! :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

That was too good for a guess, Serini. Who is your daddy and what does he do How much do you know and how do you know it?


I did not know I wanted an art upgrade to the Azure City throne room fight until now.


Miko's fall would be a good scene for such a treatment.

+1000

[Nymrod]

The throne room is protected from scrying. Remember even Xykon couldn't see into the room.

There are ways within RAW to find what happened even without scrying. Most divinations that look into the past do not require a scrying censor after all. All Serini would really need is a scroll of Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore or Commune.

Heck she could even NOT know what happened but have any number of items that allow Detect Thoughts at will and thus have found out what happened from the paladins right in front of her.

[Skull the Troll]

Xykon's goals are basically use the Snarl as a doomsday weapon to conquer the world.

But that won't happen. Instead the Dark One will use the gate as Mutually Assured Destruction to get what he wants. And there's probably a risk that the Gods decide to destroy the world before he can do that.

How will the gods destroy the world? Only one minor deity hasn't made their decision yet and he's not going to until the leaders of the Dwarf clan can find a big enough tree to kill and make a table out of. To do anything else means breaking a compact that has lasted for apparently billions of years. The gods are split exactly evenly at this point and the whole point of this process is to prevent conflict amongst the gods, any conflict they have will cause the exact problem they need to prevent. Plus Thor and Odin at least at this point are beginning to understand that they DONT actually understand the nature of Snarl.

I figure the gate stays up until the story is over. From a bards perspective, the climax of this story is not going to end with a buff dwarf going going, "Nooope, too dangerous" and pulling the plug.

[Segev]

Thanks for the reminders of Xykon's plans, TDO/Redcloak's plans, et al.

How ironic that the gods at this point would offer TDO a deal comparable to the one he wants to hold them at pseudo-metaphorical gunpoint for, without him having to threaten anything more than has already occurred.

This actually means that, if Xykon and Redcloak perform the ritual, Thor might still be able to negotiate with TDO. Sure, TDO thinks that it's all 'cause he's got the power, but if Thor can convince him that he, at least, is on-side for working with TDO to re-seal the Snarl more securely, and is willing to give a real seat at the metaphorical divine table for it, even if TDO holds the gun he might be brought around. That's promising.

[Windscion]

How will the gods destroy the world? Only one minor deity hasn't made their decision yet and ....
Irrelevent, because the vote was to destroy the world "immediately." If the gate goes down, the moot becomes, well, moot. The gods will act to preserve the souls that they can as they have done millions of times before.

[Fyraltari]

Thanks for the reminders of Xykon's plans, TDO/Redcloak's plans, et al.

How ironic that the gods at this point would offer TDO a deal comparable to the one he wants to hold them at pseudo-metaphorical gunpoint for, without him having to threaten anything more than has already occurred.
Do they, though? (Panel 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)).

Not to mention, you assume that the Dark One still only wants equality for the goblins at this point.

[Reboot]

Of course, the paladins don't know about the Godsmoot stuff any more than Sereni, remember

[Deuce]

Just a thought, while it may not make narrative sense at this point, wouldn't she know how the Gates were made (and could be remade)?

[Fyraltari]

Just a thought, while it may not make narrative sense at this point, wouldn't she know how the Gates were made (and could be remade)?

They were made by the cooperation of an Epic Wizard and an Epic Druid both of whom are dead. Don't think they can be remade in the near future.

[snowblizz]

Just a thought, while it may not make narrative sense at this point, wouldn't she know how the Gates were made (and could be remade)?

Likely yes. Unless somehow it requires certain skills only available to divine and or arcane spellcasters.

[Lord Torath]

Of course, the paladins don't know about the Godsmoot stuff any more than Sereni, rememberDurkon/Vaarsuvius Sent (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) to them just yesterday. They should know almost everything the Order knows.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Why does Serini need magic to find out anything about O-chul? Good old fashion spies seem like more of a rogue thing to do.

[Werbaer]

The throne room is protected from scrying. Remember even Xykon couldn't see into the room.
"Even Xykon"? Xykon is epic level, but he has to buy a magic item (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) to scry.

[Robots]

Updaaaaate!

So glad. I don't really have anything of note to say, I'm just pretty happy that the comic updated.

[Windscion]

They were made by the cooperation of an Epic Wizard and an Epic Druid both of whom are dead. Don't think they can be remade in the near future.

Both of whom are in a soulgem owned by Xykon. If Xykon goes down, releasing the lovers is a relatively simple matter. Just don't know if the level penalty would prevent them from duplicating their earlier work.

[The MunchKING]

OK, she's been scrying him, despite the fact that that was supposed to be impossible for the throne room. That's WAY too specific and covering the exact loophole that happened to be something she just made up on the spur of the moment.

[Ghosty]

Durkon/Vaarsuvius Sent (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) to them just yesterday. They should know almost everything the Order knows.

At 25 words at a time though. Lots of room for confusion there.

If Serini's really as on top of this as she seems to be with her knowing about O-Chul's katana, doesn't she know that Xykon et al, aren't a threat right now, or for the next month or so? I mean, Team Evil can conceivably be doing this endless dungeon crawl for a really long time. Neither RC nor X seemingly have any clue that there's a shell game going on. They might, once they clean out that dungeon and find neither Dwarven cleric, but up to that point, they've been completely in the dark.

Which leads to the question of, if she didn't want the Paladins interfering, because they couldn't possibly stop Xykon, but could conceivably destroy the Gate, why mess with them at all? All they were doing was sitting on the ledge, undiscovered, and would be until the Order showed up.

Messing with the Order, OTOH, is something else entirely. That group actually would try to find Xykon and/or the Gate, and push the issue. And if the Order has been Sending at her this whole time, doesn't Serini know they're coming?

[Ghosty]

Both of whom are in a soulgem owned by Xykon. If Xykon goes down, releasing the lovers is a relatively simple matter. Just don't know if the level penalty would prevent them from duplicating their earlier work.

Does Serini know that? I mean, she knows everything else, but do we know she knows what happened to L&D?

[Thales]

I feel like O-Chul is selling himself short here. He has most of Xykon's build figured out thanks to personal experience probably unmatched among any of the lich's enemies. Moreover, he's one of the people who Xykon (and probably Redcloak too) would drop everything to go after. Coupled with his durability, he's the ultimate decoy — that's the sort of thing that very likely could improve whatever plan Serini has cooked up to use against Xykon.

[Peelee]

Both of whom are in a soulgem owned by Xykon. If Xykon goes down, releasing the lovers is a relatively simple matter. Just don't know if the level penalty would prevent them from duplicating their earlier work.

Let's say they get freed.

Still dead.

[Blue Dragon]

The throne room is protected from scrying. Remember even Xykon couldn't see into the room.

And Mr. Stiffly was under the Cloister effect, then. But she could be scrying, say, Hinjo.

[DaOldeWolf]

Well, it seems like we have found some leeway. They just need to teer this in the right direction.

[Resileaf]

An argument O-Chul could make is that destroying Soon's gate made sense at the time because he knew there were two other gates still standing, and so destroying that gate in particular was a delaying tactic that would prevent Xykon from winning right there and then. This is no longer the case with this last gate, it's the only one left and pulling all the stops to defeat Xykon is the only possible thing left to do.

[Ionathus]

Interesting that Serini's justification for not cooperating isn't actually the "you doofuses are too incompetent to succeed" route that I'd been expecting: it's more of a "paladins are too willing to take the nuclear option" argument.

Maybe it's like how parents say "don't touch the baby bird or the mother will abandon it" which isn't true...but telling the child something like "you won't be careful enough and might hurt it" is too nuanced and easier for the child to object to ("nuh-uh, I'll be really careful!!"). The difference between a philosophical hardline and a debatable point of physical skill.

Also nice to see that Serini doesn't share Girard's paladin-hate...but I still don't blame her for being wary of their help.

[Fyraltari]

Both of whom are in a soulgem owned by Xykon. If Xykon goes down, releasing the lovers is a relatively simple matter. Just don't know if the level penalty would prevent them from duplicating their earlier work.

Assuming the gem wasn't destroyed with Xykon's former body. Isn't there a time limit on resurrection? And doesn't it require a body part?

[Anitar]

Although the art upgrade does retroactively make Mr. Stiffly's role 'eating' the fat-free scone (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) rather less plausible.

Check 1228 a bit closer. The flashback panel wasn't the moment that Xykon paralyzed O-Chul. Presumably that happened a few moments later, when he was mid-slash.

[brionl]

That throne room was protected from scrying by a spell powerful enough to keep Xykon from looking inside, yet Serini seems to know what happened there.I wonder how she got that information.

They all had to work together to seal the gates in the first place. Being the rogue she is, I wouldn't consider it out of character for her to slip in some sort of magical bug on the sapphire to allow her to snoop, and presumably on all the other gates too. Beyond just the good/bad monitor that the others had.

[The MunchKING]

Looking at it logically, the only people who could have witnessed it were; the Paladins, of which only O-chul survived, the Ghost Paladins + Soon (so she would need someway to contact souls on another plane), Xykon & Redcloak (Again immune to being scried on and unlikely to discuss it with her), and Miko (who also died). So fleshy-spy is out (Because big explosion), scrying is out, The Gods have all info on the Snarl and the Gate on lock-down so they won't tell her with Divine magic, the only logical explanation seems to be that she had someway to contact Soon's ghost.

EDIT: Or read O-chul's mind. Have to break his WILL save, but I saw someone posit that would work.

Also while the Order may have been filling her in on the tactical info, 25 words per casting is not much to be getting around to the local Paladins gossip. Also O-chul specifically didn't tell them about it because he thought it wasn't really relevant and would only serve to degrade Miko's good (such as it was) name.


Since the throne room itself was warded, maybe Serini actually scryed on O-Chul saying "It was my blade that did the deed." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) and spotted the technicality. :smalltongue:

I think he was still CLoistered at that point. Tsukiko seems to think so too (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html).


'you can't sneak attack a liche since it's undead ' ... which is one of D&D 3.5e's stupider rules ... )

Well I mean the idea of being unable to do precision damage that involves stabbing him in all the bleedy-bits should be self evident when you consider he's just a skeleton.

[TuringTest]

It's reading more like a logical inference, I think, with a bit of Soon's character to inform her. Xykon wouldn't have destroyed the gate, so someone must have.
Yes, that was my take too


That was insanely specific. Did Dorukan or Girard have some sort of super-scry set up? Or is it just a coincidence that Miko used his sword?


I'd say, none of them. Serini didn't scry on that scene, nor her phrasing is merely a coincidence. O-Chul wants to rephrase the oath into something in the future; and her guessing his motives in the most sarcastic way is likely to bring some reasons similar to why O-Chul would do that.


This strip brings the question of exactly how much Serini, who claims to know 'all about Xykon', is aware of the plan to use the Gate to blackmail the gods. (It's likely that she knows about RedCloaks spell by spying on Team Evil, but we are not sure).

[LoRdofCookIES]

I think Serini is going to be a fantastic character! Can't wait for more of her.

Also, she may not know what happened in the Godsmoot, but she does know (or can easily assume) that if the gate is destroyed the Snarl will be freed and destroy the world.

[bunsen_h]

Tnr gold on "Serini knows some things through the Oracle".

That would be my guess. "What was the name and allegiance of the person who was most directly responsible for destroying Soon's gate? What tool or method did they use to destroy Soon's gate?"

Another possibility is that this isn't the first time that Serini has had this conversation with the paladins, but they've forgotten about the earlier run-through(s).

[Riftwolf]

Oh snap! Looks like Serini could see the Gates when they were destroyed! Looks like the Order of the Stick aren't gonna be in Serini's best books, and one of my crazy theories is proved 3/4 right!

[danielxcutter]

If you think about it, Serini's probably the best Scribbler to appear without overshadowing the OotS; Soon or Kraagor could probably do as much damage, each, as any three members of the Order and don't even get me started on the casters.

[vonBoomslang]

How I expect the following conversation to go, paraphrased.

"You... you were scrying on us?"
"Shyeah of course I was!"
"But you all swore an oath not to interfere in one another's gate?"
"Ha! Did you seriously expect we'd be so wildly irresponsible to not... keep an eye on..... oh gods, you did."

[Storm_Of_Snow]

The throne room is protected from scrying. Remember even Xykon couldn't see into the room.
Xykon's Tee-vo couldn't scry into the throne room, but Eugene's "Epic Inside" scrying cloud could cut through Dorukan's Cloister effect when Xykon casts it. There's also the board that shows the state of the gates - second panel here https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html, which presumably needs to get around the scry block.

Maybe it's something Girard worked on and gave to Serini as she was the one he trusted most
(and potentially either forked the scry result to himself, or kept even more powerful things for himself and the rest of his family) - or maybe Girard's also at least partially responsible for the defences of Monster Hollow.

Or as said, perhaps Serini scryed on the surviving members of the Sapphire Guard and picked up O-Chul's mention that it was his katana that destroyed the gate.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon's Tee-vo couldn't scry into the throne room, but Eugene's "Epic Inside" scrying cloud could cut through Dorukan's Cloister effect when Xykon casts it. There's also the board that shows the state of the gates - second panel here https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html, which presumably needs to get around the scry block.

Maybe it's something Girard worked on and gave to Serini as she was the one he trusted most
(and potentially either forked the scry result to himself, or kept even more powerful things for himself and the rest of his family) - or maybe Girard's also at least partially responsible for the defences of Monster Hollow.

Or as said, perhaps Serini scryed on the surviving members of the Sapphire Guard and picked up O-Chul's mention that it was his katana that destroyed the gate.

Those clouds are likely powered by the plane of Celestia itself; they're not a terribly good indicator of how much of a punch most divinations pack.

[Lord Raziere]

Its possible that Serini is just using her rogue's insanely high Sense Motive or something like that to get a read on O-Chul and what he is likely to do. lucky guess has nothing to do with it when your skill check bonus beats the DC all by itself and O-Chul is bad at lying. some people are just very good getting a read on others.

[Reboot]

Durkon/Vaarsuvius Sent (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) to them just yesterday. They should know almost everything the Order knows.

"Crisis delayed. Durkon resurrected. En route to your location; arrival expected in two days. Please advise as to your present location; current status of Xykon."

That isn't the tail end of the message. That's the entire message, thanks to Sending's 25 word limit. Literally all they know about book 6 is that bad things were happening, and still might happen ("delayed" not "averted"), but Durkon is now not (un)dead any more at least. [And then they got captured and later messages from D/V bounced.]

[CountDVB]

What a schock that Serini had sensible reasons to capture the paladins and was not in fact evil.

Anyways this indicate that Serini will treat the Order much in the same way that she is treating Lien and O-Chul since they are responsible for the destruction of two gates.

True though unlike the Paladins, they'll be much tougher customers to deal with at least regarding arguments and so on. We don't know how much Serini knows regarding the circumstances of them.

However, this does make me wonder her plans, given her comments regarding the end of Utterly Dwarved on doing something and that it was fun existing, meaning that whatever her goals or plans are, it would likely see things undone or so on.

[GregTD]

I’d like to say maybe this will shut up arguements about Serini being evil but I’ve been here far too long to expect that, maybe it will slow down though.

She's not evil, she's worse than that: she's ignorant, and wrong.

It's often easier to work with evil, which at least has self interest you can appeal to.

Curing ignorance? When it's backed up by decades of carried grievance? That can be more challenging


Hmm, they aren't going to let Redcloak have control of the gate since he is the Dark One's servant. If Xykon took control of the gate and then backstabbed Redcloak so that he doesn't have to share power - Xykon is all about power - he'd be narratively consistent (he uses Redcloack, and abuses him, and will have no need for him once he has the gate). In that case, the Gods might not like the situation the Gate is in but the threat to them isn't of the same magnitude as Redcloak having the gate and thus the Dark One having control of it. (Redcloak's plan to back stab Xykon is pretty well established, aside from the the joke about 'you can't sneak attack a liche since it's undead ' ... which is one of D&D 3.5e's stupider rules ... )


Would somebody please remind me: what are the consequences of Xykon getting the gate vs. it being destroyed?

I think I recall the Snarl being freed/world being destroyed by the gates all breaking (and this is the last one), but I am unsure now what Xykon's goals with the Gates are.

So far as we know, Xykon's plan to use the Gate for world domination starts with casting a spell with Redcloak.

We do know that said spell will give the Dark One power over the Gate.

We do know the Gods will destroy the world and start things over again, rather than let the Dark One use it against them.

So if Xykon gets near to taking control over the final Gate, we expect that the Gods will have a new vote, and destroy the world, again.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I wonder if what we're seeing here is the result of an Epic level Gather Information check.

[understatement]

She's not scrying. It's just O-Chul's flashback, which is why he has the "uh oh" expression, along with Serini meta-riffing on paladin oaths afterward.

She does know a paladin must have destroyed the Azure City Gate, since a) only paladins know about it and b) Xykon wouldn't destroy it.

[fuschiawarrior]

However, this does make me wonder her plans, given her comments regarding the end of Utterly Dwarved on doing something and that it was fun existing, meaning that whatever her goals or plans are, it would likely see things undone or so on.

I think she was being bitter and sarcastic about their situation and whatever her plans are, they don't include stop existing and today strip pretty much confirm this. If she wanted to undone the world, she could have done it already as she knows where the Gate is and can destroy it.

[gbs5009]

I wonder if what we're seeing here is the result of an Epic level Gather Information check.

I can think of two possibilities that don't seem to have been considered yet.

One is that smashing the gate left some residual effect on O-Chul's sword that she's picked up on.

The other is that the green miasma given off by the potion triggers the amnesia effect without even drinking it, and Serini is benefiting from getting to do this interrogation on loop.

[Fyraltari]

She's not scrying. It's just O-Chul's flashback, which is why he has the "uh oh" expression, along with Serini meta-riffing on paladin oaths afterward.

She does know a paladin must have destroyed the Azure City Gate, since a) only paladins know about it and b) Xykon wouldn't destroy it.
I agree that she probably guessed that, along those lines however b) is wrong: Team Evil wouldn't intentionnally destroy a Gate but that didn't save Lirian's Gate.

[GregTD]

How will the gods destroy the world? Only one minor deity hasn't made their decision yet and he's not going to until the leaders of the Dwarf clan can find a big enough tree to kill and make a table out of. To do anything else means breaking a compact that has lasted for apparently billions of years.

A priest on the "don't destroy the world" side gets instructed by his / her God to commit suicide. That God is no longer represented, the God's vote no longer counts, the tie is ended.

Which means that that priest dies roughly 5 seconds before everyone else. Not a big loss.

You're not allowed to leave the Godsmoot if you're the God's representative. You're not allowed to attack another God's representative. But your bodyguard can attack you, so even if suicide is explicitly ruled out, the elimination can still happen


"Crisis delayed. Durkon resurrected. En route to your location; arrival expected in two days. Please advise as to your present location; current status of Xykon."

That isn't the tail end of the message. That's the entire message, thanks to Sending's 25 word limit. Literally all they know about book 6 is that bad things were happening, and still might happen ("delayed" not "averted"), but Durkon is now not (un)dead any more at least. [And then they got captured and later messages from D/V bounced.]

"Crisis delayed."

What crisis?

That would be the crisis V sent to them about in previous Sendings. You know, the crisis where the Gods are going to end all life on the prime material plane and start over again?

IMAO it's hard to find any reasonable behavior that leaves the Paladins not up to date on that problem

[SlashDash]

{scrubbed} that scene was not happening in the throne room.
Umm... Yes it was. The gate was literally in the throne of Azure City
They even mentioned the words "throne room" several times in the battle.


I feel like O-Chul is selling himself short here. He has most of Xykon's build figured out thanks to personal experience probably unmatched among any of the lich's enemies. Moreover, he's one of the people who Xykon (and probably Redcloak too) would drop everything to go after. Coupled with his durability, he's the ultimate decoy — that's the sort of thing that very likely could improve whatever plan Serini has cooked up to use against Xykon.
Let's not forget, O-Chul's friendship with the monster in the dark. O-Chul knows the monster is on their side since he saw the monster doing the trick with painting the doors.

So he could reasonably assume that the could get it to switch sides in a battle.


And Mr. Stiffly was under the Cloister effect, then. But she could be scrying, say, Hinjo.
No she couldn't since Hinjo doesn't know what really happened.

Remember Hinjo asked O-Chul if he destroyed the gate (forgot the strip number) and O-Chul said he thought about it and it was his sword that did it because he didn't want to tarnish Miko's reputation.

So scrying on Hinjo would net you a wrong story and her exact phrasing about "someone" using his personal katana is too on the nose to fit the story Hinjo believes.

[fuschiawarrior]

The Gods can destroy the world in a instant and the ritual casting time is like a week, if I'm remembering right. With this time frame They can find a way to finish the current vote and start another one without resorting to suicide (by the way can we stop using suicide as a solution to problems brought by the comic, please? If this makes Eugene, a fictional character, look callous, it certainly make a real person looks like a douche too)

[GregTD]

The Gods can destroy the world in a instant and the ritual casting time is like a week, if I'm remembering right. With this time frame They can find a way to finish the current vote and start another one without resorting to suicide (by the way can we stop using suicide as a solution to problems brought by the comic, please? If this makes Eugene, a fictional character, look callous, it certainly make a real person looks like a douche too)

There's a massive difference between "you commit suicide so everyone else can continue living" and "you commit suicide. The rest of us will be joining you in about 5 seconds."

We don't know all the Godsmoot rules. We don't know if there's rules about location being different, gap in between, etc.

We do know that a God's vote doesn't count if the God has no representative there.

So we can build long threads wanking about various ways they might be able to pull it off, burning electrons to absolutely no point, or we can point out that there's a very straightforward to change the vote.

People of sense do the later

[CountDVB]

She's not evil, she's worse than that: she's ignorant, and wrong.

It's often easier to work with evil, which at least has self interest you can appeal to.

Curing ignorance? When it's backed up by decades of carried grievance? That can be more challenging

So far as we know, Xykon's plan to use the Gate for world domination starts with casting a spell with Redcloak.

We do know that said spell will give the Dark One power over the Gate.

We do know the Gods will destroy the world and start things over again, rather than let the Dark One use it against them.

So if Xykon gets near to taking control over the final Gate, we expect that the Gods will have a new vote, and destroy the world, again.

Yeah, if Serini is making assumptions without knowing the whole story, that could lead to some serious trouble.

Meanwhile, we do't know how much Xykon knows on Redcloak yanking his chain and lying on it. He's prepared for it, but perhaps he thinks Redcloak still lacks the balls to make a move. However, we know Redcloak is willing to let the world be destroyed for a long shot so he doesn't own up to his mistakes. I'm reminded of how Xykon said he ripped his flesh off to avoid weakness; I wonder if Xykon would invoke being proud of Redcloak to shame him or to get under his goblin skin.

:xykon: You're gonna destory the world than admit you screwed up? To avoid weakness? Heh, didn't think you had the balls, Redcloak. Finally you're in the big leagues now.

Heck, we don't even know if Redcloak or Dark One's plans will work, though they may be okay getting crushed out of existence if they take everyone else out of the way.

[Fyraltari]

Umm... Yes it was. The gate was literally in the throne of Azure City
They even mentioned the words "throne room" several times in the battle.


You can't tell because of the redtext but Stabbey is talking about the scene they linked to upthread where O-Chul fills Hinjo in about what happened in the throne room. More specifically that he made the choice to destroy Soon's Gate and that it was his blade that did the deed. That discussion did not happen in the throne room.

[Wraithfighter]

I don't think Seriri is entirely dead-set on mind-wiping O-chul and Lien, honestly. Either that or she's, well, an idiot.

Comparing destroying Gate 3 of 5 to destroying the only remaining Gate is kinda... well, not comparable? Roy's pretty firm on the "don't destroy the last gate" plan, and he's the guy that was going "we have to proactively destroy the second-to-last gate because we have no way to effectively defend it". And surely Serini would understand that getting rid of a failsafe when there's redundancies still in place isn't the same as removing the final protection.

Rather, I think she's smart and mentally flexible enough, based on everything we've seen, to realize that her odds of stopping Xykon, as infinitesimal as they are right now, go up with Team Paladin helping her, but only if they're willing to follow her lead and not, you know, blow up the world. She was probably spying on them for a while before she decided to capture them and, frankly, if she wanted to give them the Amnesia potion...

...why capture them in the first place? Xykon wasn't imminently about to find the Gate any moreso than he was a week or month earlier. She could brew the potion up, get a pair of vials ready, go over to them, knock them out, pour the potion down their throats, and take them far away. The only reason to capture them, and allow them to wake up, is to be able to talk to them and make sure that it's needed, or if they could be convinced to change their plans. Note also that she came across them maintaining discrete surveillance on a super-evil monster bent on world domination. If Paladins could be convinced to not fight the big bad, but watch and wait, then maybe they could be convinced to risk Xykon seizing the gate instead of destroying it.

Not that Serini's not willing to drug them and release them back into the wild, of course. Duh. But I also think that she wants to be convinced that its not the right call to make, which is why she's having this conversation in the first place.

[PontificatusRex]

I wonder how much of Serini's information is from the Sendings from the OotS that she never answered?

[Yirggzmb]

There's a massive difference between "you commit suicide so everyone else can continue living" and "you commit suicide. The rest of us will be joining you in about 5 seconds."

We don't know all the Godsmoot rules. We don't know if there's rules about location being different, gap in between, etc.

We do know that a God's vote doesn't count if the God has no representative there.

So we can build long threads wanki9ng about various ways they might be able to pull it off, burning electrons to absolutely no point, or we can point out that there's a very straightforward to change the vote.

People of sense do the later

I mean, I don't think the people still at the moot waiting are actually physically unable to leave (the Order left just fine). Just that they're under orders not to because of the rules. So even without the suicide option, the gods could probably just tell their cleric(s) to leave the premises. Just as simple, but less unfortunate implications for people to point out.

[Psyren]

Serini's insistence on not letting the paladins get anywhere near the gate suggests that she knows full well what will happen if the last one is destroyed, and is as in favor of "thinking safely inside the box" as the Order is.


There are ways within RAW to find what happened even without scrying. Most divinations that look into the past do not require a scrying censor after all. All Serini would really need is a scroll of Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore or Commune.

Heck she could even NOT know what happened but have any number of items that allow Detect Thoughts at will and thus have found out what happened from the paladins right in front of her.


Durkon/Vaarsuvius Sent (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) to them just yesterday. They should know almost everything the Order knows.


OK, she's been scrying him, despite the fact that that was supposed to be impossible for the throne room. That's WAY too specific and covering the exact loophole that happened to be something she just made up on the spur of the moment.


Oh snap! Looks like Serini could see the Gates when they were destroyed! Looks like the Order of the Stick aren't gonna be in Serini's best books, and one of my crazy theories is proved 3/4 right!

@ all the: "how could she scry on the scry-proof throne room" - she's an epic rogue! She could have had a front-row seat to the whole battle and nobody would've known, Xykon and Redcloak included.

[The MunchKING]

@ all the: "how could she scry on the scry-proof throne room" - she's an epic rogue! She could have had a front-row seat to the whole battle and nobody would've known, Xykon and Redcloak included.

"Giant blast" says she better have O-chul's hitpoints, or only slightly less and troll regen if she wants to walk away from it. :p

[Fyraltari]

@ all the: "how could she scry on the scry-proof throne room" - she's an epic rogue! She could have had a front-row seat to the whole battle and nobody would've known, Xykon and Redcloak included.

And she didn't do anything to stop Team Evil?

[Psyren]

"Giant blast" says she better have O-chul's hitpoints, or only slightly less and troll regen if she wants to walk away from it. :p

Or, you know, Evasion :smalltongue:


And she didn't do anything to stop Team Evil?

Epic rogue vs. epic sorcerer lich probably would not have ended the way you think it would. And Miko made that moot anyway.

[Yirggzmb]

And she didn't do anything to stop Team Evil?

But if she's scrying, would she even be able to do anything to affect the situation?

[Fyraltari]

Or, you know, Evasion :smalltongue:



Epic rogue vs. epic sorcerer lich probably would not have ended the way you think it would. And Miko made that moot anyway.
They almost died! If she'd helped, they could have taken them out before Miko even goth there. OR she could have stopped Miko from breaking the Gate. Really the idea that she was in the room doesn't make a lot of sense. What would she eve be doing there in the first place?

[arimareiji]

Looking at it logically, the only people who could have witnessed it were; the Paladins, of which only O-chul survived, the Ghost Paladins + Soon (so she would need someway to contact souls on another plane), Xykon & Redcloak (Again immune to being scried on and unlikely to discuss it with her), and Miko (who also died). So fleshy-spy is out (Because big explosion), scrying is out, The Gods have all info on the Snarl and the Gate on lock-down so they won't tell her with Divine magic, the only logical explanation seems to be that she had someway to contact Soon's ghost.

EDIT: Or read O-chul's mind. Have to break his WILL save, but I saw someone posit that would work.

Dadgummit, beaten to the punch on what I think is the most likely explanation. (^_~)b

Was looking forward to pointing out that if Serini's Cauldro-matic allows her to brew potions, one of them is ESP. And her questioning thus far suggests that she's trying to get them to think about the information she needs.

I'd be grateful if someone could say whether those were still around in this edition, and/or whether they specified that a save is allowed. My memory is failtastic, and the few references I've found so far shed little light on the subject.

[Peelee]

That would be my guess. "What was the name and allegiance of the person who was most directly responsible for destroying Soon's gate? What tool or method did they use to destroy Soon's gate?"

Another possibility is that this isn't the first time that Serini has had this conversation with the paladins, but they've forgotten about the earlier run-through(s).

For the Oracle, I figure if it's either off-panel or not someone he dislikes, it's not terribly important to phrase the question super specifically. He may have gotten a kick out of ratting out humans to a halfling, for example.

The other possibility exists, definitely, but seems more dramatic than Serini might be (at least her willingness to play along well enough that they can't tell). But not sure yet, she's still a pretty big mystery.

[The MunchKING]

Or, you know, Evasion :smalltongue:

Worked so well for her last time. :smalltongue:


But if she's scrying, would she even be able to do anything to affect the situation?

That was a response to "She could have been in the room and noone would have noticed."


They almost died! If she'd helped, they could have taken them out before Miko even goth there. OR she could have stopped Miko from breaking the Gate. Really the idea that she was in the room doesn't make a lot of sense. What would she eve be doing there in the first place?

WHY do you think she was so sure the Paladins wouldn't go crazy and try to take all the Gates? :smallwink:

[MoonCat]

Check 1228 a bit closer. The flashback panel wasn't the moment that Xykon paralyzed O-Chul. Presumably that happened a few moments later, when he was mid-slash.

That's inaccurate—see how in 1228 Xykon is already reaching out to perform the paralyzing touch? It matches precisely the antepenultimate panel of 448 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), which, as you can see, also has O-Chul frozen with indecision for a few panels before.

There was no forward motion when Xykon was stopping O-Chul, and based on the design of the scene in the new comic, I'm pretty sure that even so, it's depicting the exact moment at which O-Chul was paralyzed.

[Yendor]

"Crisis delayed."

What crisis?

That would be the crisis V sent to them about in previous Sendings. You know, the crisis where the Gods are going to end all life on the prime material plane and start over again?

IMAO it's hard to find any reasonable behavior that leaves the Paladins not up to date on that problem

That's a long way from knowing "everything the Order knows". Nothing about what Durkon learned from Thor about the never-ending cycle of worlds, or that they need to get Redcloak and the Dark One on board.

[Fyraltari]

That's inaccurate—see how in 1228 Xykon is already reaching out to perform the paralyzing touch? It matches precisely the antepenultimate panel of 448 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), which, as you can see, also has O-Chul frozen with indecision for a few panels before.

There was no forward motion when Xykon was stopping O-Chul, and based on the design of the scene in the new comic, I'm pretty sure that even so, it's depicting the exact moment at which O-Chul was paralyzed.

O-Chul isn't frozen with indecision (his face doesn't reflect that), Xykon paralyzed him in the sixth panel of the second page and is simply waiting for the "camera" to pan to him to announce it for effect.

[Yirggzmb]

That was a response to "She could have been in the room and noone would have noticed."


Ah
I took "front row seat" to still mean scrying, but the other interpretation is fair enough

[Argis13]

That's inaccurate—see how in 1228 Xykon is already reaching out to perform the paralyzing touch? It matches precisely the antepenultimate panel of 448 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), which, as you can see, also has O-Chul frozen with indecision for a few panels before.

There was no forward motion when Xykon was stopping O-Chul, and based on the design of the scene in the new comic, I'm pretty sure that even so, it's depicting the exact moment at which O-Chul was paralyzed.

It doesn't precisely match it, though. In 1228, his hands are over his head, katana, pointing back towards X. In 448, his hands are in front of his face, katana pointing toward the ceiling.

Also, I think that you have misinterpreted 448, O-Chul isn't frozen with indecision- he's frozen with the Paralyzing touch.

The moment that 1228 depicts is in between panels 5 & 6 on page 2 of 448- panel 5 has O-Chul running up the stairs, 1228 has him stopping at the top of the stairs to wind up so that he can swing both powerfully and accurately at the magically-reinforced and small Sapphire, and panels 6-10 have him paralyzed mid-swing.

1228 is depicting the split-second before he was paralyzed.

[Ave]

Serini is only half-right. There is a big difference between a Gate and the LAST GATE.

[hroþila]

Whatever her means to gather the information, Serini isn't merely guessing. She clearly knows exactly what happened, or she wouldn't word it like that. She's being way too specific.

[arimareiji]

That's a long way from knowing "everything the Order knows". Nothing about what Durkon learned from Thor about the never-ending cycle of worlds, or that they need to get Redcloak and the Dark One on board.

Agreed, but I've been wondering about one detail for a long time: Do they need to get TDO on board per se?

Thor said that Durkon needs to convince "TDO's high priest" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) (RC) to channel the energy of one 9th-level spell slot, but there's no indication he has to ask TDO. (There's a decent-or-better chance* he'll choose to, but whether he has to is another question. Particularly if, as I suspect, his decision will be last-minute.)

* - Especially since it may take TDO telling him to do it, since TDO is likely to prioritize his worshippers' existence more than RC does. Minrah was right (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html) - RC only feels bad that he doesn't care about the lives of all goblinity (which he projects onto others who may or may not deserve it). Which reminds me of a quote too awesome not to repeat: "Na as many as ye." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1210.html)

[Yendor]

You know, mentioning the Order probably isn't going to help the paladins' case. "Even better! The bunglers who destroyed two of the Gates!"

[Ruck]

Like on wikipedia: citation needed.

The billions of times they've destroyed the world before.


The panel was O-Chul's flashback. People suspect scrying because the specific wording of the oath that she offers suggests that she knows Miko smashed the gate with O-Chul's katana.

Bingo.


I also find it amusing that Girard had a serious stick up his backside about "each of us will leave the other alone", and here Sirini was clearly violating that rule

All of the Scribblers except Soon violated it.


I mean, I don't think the people still at the moot waiting are actually physically unable to leave (the Order left just fine). Just that they're under orders not to because of the rules. So even without the suicide option, the gods could probably just tell their cleric(s) to leave the premises. Just as simple, but less unfortunate implications for people to point out.

Roy was able to leave because he had no status to remain at the Godsmoot after Durkula abdicated his High Priest of Hel position.


(by the way can we stop using suicide as a solution to problems brought by the comic, please? If this makes Eugene, a fictional character, look callous, it certainly make a real person looks like a douche too)

The author is explicitly on record as saying suicide will not be used as a solution in the comic.


Which leads to the question of, if she didn't want the Paladins interfering, because they couldn't possibly stop Xykon, but could conceivably destroy the Gate, why mess with them at all? All they were doing was sitting on the ledge, undiscovered, and would be until the Order showed up.


Note that she doesn't do anything until O-Chul starts talking about opening doors and trying to determine where the Gate is.

This makes even more sense now that we know Serini suspects they would destroy the gate if they found it.

[Anymage]

My money is either on the halfling with the amnesia potion having save scummed the interrogation a couple of times, or red voice having seen something at some point. Red voice is still enough of a wild card that I'm not discounting anything yet.

[KorvinStarmast]

OK, she's been scrying him, despite the fact that that was supposed to be impossible for the throne room. That's WAY too specific and covering the exact loophole that happened to be something she just made up on the spur of the moment. She's got skill points in lawyer, perhaps? "Never ask a question in court that you don't already know the answer to" or something like that. And she put together the agreement the Scribblers all signed up to. Lawyer-ish. :smallsmile:

Well I mean the idea of being unable to do precision damage that involves stabbing him in all the bleedy-bits should be self evident when you consider he's just a skeleton. That's a key element of the stupider part. :smallyuk: Glad 5e got rid of that.

Rather, I think she's smart and mentally flexible enough ... which is why she's having this conversation in the first place. A couple of silver pieces wagered on this position. :smallcool:

[arimareiji]

You know, mentioning the Order probably isn't going to help the paladins' case. "Even better! The bunglers who destroyed two of the Gates!"

Particularly not if the mind-reading hypothesis is correct. Iirc and O-Chul was likely present offpanel at the trial, a stray thought of "She's right, I was going to destroy a gate - but at least I'm not Elan, who basically destroyed one for the lulz (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html)" is not going to win hearts and minds.

[Ghosty]

This makes even more sense now that we know Serini suspects they would destroy the gate if they found it.

The Paladins would be even less likely to discover the shell game than Team Evil. Open as many doors as they want. All they'll do is possibly die.

It looks like the Gate isn't behind any of the doors. Unless you bypass that first trap, and only Serini knows what further obstacles behind that.

[Yendor]

Agreed, but I've been wondering about one detail for a long time: Do they need to get TDO on board per se?

Yes? Sealing these rifts isn't a permanent solution (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html), so they need to ensure the continuing existence of purple quiddity, plus it'll be a lot easier to fix things in the future with TDO's explicit help, rather than kinda hoping they can co-operate with whatever priest is around then.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Serini sure is well-versed in past goings-on, but her current knowledge has holes in it big enough to drive a truck through.

The way she's talking -- or rather, what she's not talking about -- seems to imply that she has no idea that the Order have arrived and have already infiltrated the dungeon (let alone found the magical portal trap built into the entrances). Which makes sense if she and her orange-speaking servant simply arrived, absconded with Lien and O-Chul, and left back to their unspecified base of operations without maintaining active surveillance.

The paladins are going to have to change the subject fast if they want Serini to realize that they actually represent a greater force of allies who are coming to stop Xykon and Redcloak from seizing the Gate, before Serini pulls the trigger on her presumably-epic-level amnesia means and sends them home as per what appears to be her standard MO.

The challenge there is that Serini appears to be the kind of person who will just take a tangent on and on without regard for what the other side(s) of the conversation want(s) to say and explain. Especially when talking to someone she holds in relatively low opinion, like a pair of paladins she just caught snooping around her dungeon's front porch.

On the upside, Serini has now discussed her amnesia potion plan, so by dramatic convention, that means it will not play out the way she has already spelled it out. What's more, the last diplomatic situation (Durkon and Minrah vs. Redcloak) was a complete trainwreck, so it stands to reason that this should not turn out the same way. Gods (and the Giant) willing, hopefully we can all avoid a truly epic case of dramatic irony as we wait ages for the next chance for different sides to cooperate instead of working at cross purposes and tripping each other up.

[Ruck]

The Paladins would be even less likely to discover the shell game than Team Evil. Open as many doors as they want. All they'll do is possibly die.

It looks like the Gate isn't behind any of the doors. Unless you bypass that first trap, and only Serini knows what further obstacles behind that.

I don't think either option-- the paladins discovering the gate or the paladins dying-- is preferable to Serini, not when she can get them out of there and get everything they know out of them, and not when they might be allies as long as she can stop them from doing something stupid.

[gatemansgc]

I did not know I wanted an art upgrade to the Azure City throne room fight until now.

omg imagine a wider shot of that!

this could start a whole discussion about what scenes from older comics people would love to see in the current style but would be so offtopic. someone start a fresh post please!

[Peelee]

someone start a fresh post please!

Assuming you mean thread.... Be the change you want to see on the world. :smallwink:

[Rogar Demonblud]

We just had that thread not too long ago. It died from lack of interest.

[MoonCat]

O-Chul isn't frozen with indecision (his face doesn't reflect that), Xykon paralyzed him in the sixth panel of the second page and is simply waiting for the "camera" to pan to him to announce it for effect.

That is an interesting take. I've always understood the fact that Xykon is touching O-Chul in that 8th panel, that's the one in which the spell is cast. The range for paralyzing touch is 5 feet however, so are you saying Xykon got past bandana guy and was following O-Chul off-screen the whole time?

[Fish]

I think Serini's knowledge has to come from Girard and Vaarsuvius. I doubt that it comes from any understanding with the other Scribblers, at least until I see some other evidence.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think Serini is the kind of person to obey the oath, as related by Shojo: "And we agree: no interference ... We'll set up some kind of monitoring divination to tell if someone else's gate is broken, but that's it. No spying, no 'just checking in' visits, no nothing." Setting aside that Shojo might have been perpetuating a lie to keep the paladins in line under him, and setting aside the possibility that the "oath" may simply be another way that Serini enjoys lying to paladins, I don't think she feels particularly bound by her word. We already have a reason to think that she was in contact with Girard (or at least he was in contact with her).

Serini's diary was stolen fairly early in the history of this whole event — after Lirian's Gate fell, because Xykon was a lich when he attacked; and some time before Dorukan's Gate. If Serini had friendly contact with the other Scribblers, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that she warned the remaining Scribblers of the nature of the attack that was coming. Girard certainly didn't seem to have taken any additional steps to ward off undead beings. Azure City seemed unprepared. Dorukan was lured out of hiding.

So either Serini adhered to the spirit of the oath and didn't contact the others — which, while foolhardy, matches the kind of blind and stubborn independence that was the Scribblers' downfall — or she did warn them, to no avail. Perhaps Girard refused to believe her warning, or he refused to entrust the defense of his gate to clerics; perhaps Dorukan trusted his own wizardry too much.

[Fyraltari]

That is an interesting take. I've always understood the fact that Xykon is touching O-Chul in that 8th panel, that's the one in which the spell is cast. The range for paralyzing touch is 5 feet however, so are you saying Xykon got past bandana guy and was following O-Chul off-screen the whole time?

I'm saying he was hit on his tail since their little discussion (where xykon basically told him to go break the get) and leaped at O-Chul just as he was about to do that. Cat playing with his food and all that. I don't see O-Chul stopping to think about that in the heat of battle, without changing his expression or posing his foot on the ground.

[Peelee]

That is an interesting take. I've always understood the fact that Xykon is touching O-Chul in that 8th panel, that's the one in which the spell is cast. The range for paralyzing touch is 5 feet however, so are you saying Xykon got past bandana guy and was following O-Chul off-screen the whole time?

A.) not a spell
2.) no reason for O-Chul to not swing unless he was already paralyzed. Those are beat panels. Or, at least, panel 7 is. Panel 6 is just showing him getting up there. No hesitation though. He knew what needed to be done.

[Shining Wrath]

It appears that Serini is remarkably well informed. I wonder who she's been talking to?

Perhaps - IFCC?

[Bilbo Baggins]

I pretty much called this:

I'm willing to bet several quatloos that Serini pretty much has full knowledge of the immediate situation surrounding the gate, except for some of the more obscure details (e.g. the billions of worlds, the world within the rift, the fourth/fifth quiddities, Redcloak's Plan). I don't think she has any misconceptions about the paladins' or the Order's intentions; she's just decided (due to either correct reasoning or to a character flaw) that her own plans will work better with them out of the way.

I don't usually get predictions correct so I'm proud of this one even if it's minor :smalltongue:

[Ruck]

That is an interesting take. I've always understood the fact that Xykon is touching O-Chul in that 8th panel, that's the one in which the spell is cast. The range for paralyzing touch is 5 feet however, so are you saying Xykon got past bandana guy and was following O-Chul off-screen the whole time?


A.) not a spell
2.) no reason for O-Chul to not swing unless he was already paralyzed. Those are beat panels. Or, at least, panel 7 is. Panel 6 is just showing him getting up there. No hesitation though. He knew what needed to be done.

Also, bandana guy is dealing with the other paladins and not Xykon. He's also visibly dead in the last panel.

[Peelee]

It appears that Serini is remarkably well informed. I wonder who she's been talking to?

Perhaps - IFCC?
A hundred gold on "no."

I pretty much called this:


I don't usually get predictions correct so I'm proud of this one even if it's minor :smalltongue:

You deserve to be Bilbo Braggins!

[MoonCat]

I'm saying he was hit on his tail since their little discussion (where xykon basically told him to go break the get) and leaped at O-Chul just as he was about to do that. Cat playing with his food and all that. I don't see O-Chul stopping to think about that in the heat of battle, without changing his expression or posing his foot on the ground.

Yes, I understand all that, I just think it could also be read differently. However, I concede the point, and for the reason that the edge of O-Chul's boot is cut off slightly until the Xykon panel, which does make your reading of it being a reveal more plausible.


A.) not a spell
2.) no reason for O-Chul to not swing unless he was already paralyzed. Those are beat panels. Or, at least, panel 7 is. Panel 6 is just showing him getting up there. No hesitation though. He knew what needed to be done.

a.) And this is relevant because...?

b.) Although I have since conceded my argument, I don't see how telling someone who thinks someone's reason for not swinging was hesitation that there is no reason is anything more than ignoring their entire argument. Also, beat panels would have applied perfectly well to showing hesitation, so again, I really feel that your points here aren't engaging with anything I'd been saying.


Also, bandana guy is dealing with the other paladins and not Xykon. He's also visibly dead in the last panel.

Well, yes, obviously he's dead by the time Xykon has gotten to O-Chul, that was never in question.

[Ruck]

b.) Although I have since conceded my argument, I don't see how telling someone who thinks someone's reason for not swinging was hesitation that there is no reason is anything more than ignoring their entire argument. Also, beat panels would have applied perfectly well to showing hesitation, so again, I really feel that your points here aren't engaging with anything I'd been saying.

I mean, I think you either believe the beat panel showed hesitation or it didn't. I don't think it did. I think it was used for dramatic effect, to make the reader wonder "Why hasn't O-Chul swung his sword yet?" and then the next panel reveals why.

[Peelee]

a.) And this is relevant because...?
Because you caller it a spell. I'm letting you know that it's not a spell.

b.) Although I have since conceded my argument, I don't see how telling someone who thinks someone's reason for not swinging was hesitation that there is no reason is anything more than ignoring their entire argument. Also, beat panels would have applied perfectly well to showing hesitation, so again, I really feel that your points here aren't engaging with anything I'd been saying.

O-Chul says he must destroy the Gate, rushes to the Gate in the middle of a frenzied, deadly battle with people getting killed every second, and suddenly decides to have second thoughts about whether he should really destroy the Gate. Please cotrect me if I'm wrong, but this was what you were arguing. I'm explaining that it makes no sense for him to do that last part - he had already decided on the course of action and every second was previous time to do what needed to be done. The beat panel is there because of the juxtaposition - the reader expects O-Chul to strike immediately, but he just stands there instead. This is odd, and puts us off our balance. This let's the revelation be stronger and have an ending to the micro-mystery, letting it be a stronger resolution than without the beat panel. If it were O-Chul second-guessing, there would almost certainly be a dialogue balloon or at the very least a facial expression change, since comics are an entirely visual medium. It's possible to have a beat panel show character pause, but that is always explained immediately after, usually as a punchline. Showcasing a beat panel as hesitation with no visual clues whatsoever, no dialogue at all explaining such, or no incredibly obvious personal connection for the character to have pause over would be needlessly confusing and poor comic construction.

And I was hoping to say all that in fewer words, so I phrased it as "there's no reason", threw it at the wall, and thought it would stick, since presumably one could not give a reason for him to pause.

[Jasdoif]

I'm explaining that it makes no sense for him to do that last part - he had already decided on the course of action and every second was previous time to do what needed to be done. The beat panel is there because of the juxtaposition - the reader expects O-Chul to strike immediately, but he just stands there instead. This is odd, and puts us off our balance. This let's the revelation be stronger and have an ending to the micro-mystery, letting it be a stronger resolution than without the beat panel. If it were O-Chul second-guessing, there would almost certainly be a dialogue balloon or at the very least a facial expression change, since comics are an entirely visual medium.You might say the deliberate break from the usual use of beat panels in the comic reinforces the deliberate break from O-Chul's behavior in the comic up to this point.

[MoonCat]

I mean, I think you either believe the beat panel showed hesitation or it didn't. I don't think it did. I think it was used for dramatic effect, to make the reader wonder "Why hasn't O-Chul swung his sword yet?" and then the next panel reveals why.

Yes, one either thinks something or one doesn't. But if a person is arguing one thing, just telling them that's not the case isn't very persuasive. That was all I was saying in the section you have quoted.


Because you caller it a spell. I'm letting you know that it's not a spell.


O-Chul says he must destroy the Gate, rushes to the Gate in the middle of a frenzied, deadly battle with people getting killed every second, and suddenly decides to have second thoughts about whether he should really destroy the Gate. Please cotrect me if I'm wrong, but this was what you were arguing. I'm explaining that it makes no sense for him to do that last part - he had already decided on the course of action and every second was previous time to do what needed to be done. The beat panel is there because of the juxtaposition - the reader expects O-Chul to strike immediately, but he just stands there instead. This is odd, and puts us off our balance. This let's the revelation be stronger and have an ending to the micro-mystery, letting it be a stronger resolution than without the beat panel. If it were O-Chul second-guessing, there would almost certainly be a dialogue balloon or at the very least a facial expression change, since comics are an entirely visual medium. It's possible to have a beat panel show character pause, but that is always explained immediately after, usually as a punchline. Showcasing a beat panel as hesitation with no visual clues whatsoever, no dialogue at all explaining such, or no incredibly obvious personal connection for the character to have pause over would be needlessly confusing and poor comic construction.

And I was hoping to say all that in fewer words, so I phrased it as "there's no reason", threw it at the wall, and thought it would stick, since presumably one could not give a reason for him to pause.

I'm afraid I still don't see how that's relevant. Were you just correcting me for the sake of it?

As I have said, yes, I understand now that the beat panels were not to show hesitation. However, I would still argue that showing hesitation via beat panel would not have been unreasonable—devoting your life to protecting something and now having to destroy it is something that might warrant an involuntary pause at the moment of truth.

Everything you say about juxtaposition and unbalancing the reader is also true for making the reader consider the pathos of the situation. Furthermore, you say there's no visual cue to show O-Chul second-guessing himself, I'm saying the beat panel would have been the visual cue.

[TerrickTerran]

That last line really did it for me. Fun comic and looking forward to what she has in mind for the paladins.

[Peelee]

I'm afraid I still don't see how that's relevant. Were you just correcting me for the sake of it?
It is not relevant to whether O-Chul paused or not, no. You called it a spell and I wanted to let you know it was not a spell. Similarly, if you talk about Mr Scruffy's affect on the politics of Azure City and call Mr. Scruffy a dog, part of my response would be that Mr. Scruffy is not a dog, despite that fact having no bearing on what Mr. Scruffy's affect on the politics of Azure City was. I really did not expect this to be a point of confusion.

As I have said, yes, I understand now that the beat panels were not to show hesitation. However, I would still argue that showing hesitation via beat panel would not have been unreasonable—devoting your life to protecting something and now having to destroy it is something that might warrant an involuntary pause at the moment of truth.

Everything you say about juxtaposition and unbalancing the reader is also true for making the reader consider the pathos of the situation. Furthermore, you say there's no visual cue to show O-Chul second-guessing himself, I'm saying the beat panel would have been the visual cue.
The beat panel is not the visual cue, though. That's what I'm saying. If the beat panel itself is the visual cue, then that is a poorly constructed comic. It does not clearly convey the message it would be intending to convey. For example (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html), in the last three panels, we have shock, a beat panel, and then a visual clue - specifically, a speech bubble saying "I think we broke Haley". If the penultimate panel was simply recreated exactly in the final panel, that would effectively act as what you define as a visual clue, but would be boring, confusing, and make the reader wonder where the real final panel is. It's like a joke without a punchline, a riff without the last note. It's the comic equivalent of this (https://i.gifer.com/nPs.gif). There's no satisfying ending. At they very, absolute least, a change in facial expression would be required. You claim it could be possible that a paladin who devoted their entire life to keeping the Gate safe would have pause on destroying it - ok, if that's true, why would that paladin look exactly the same when intent on destruction as when coming to grips with that they are about to do? The answer is simple - they wouldn't. They would have some form of visually conveying their inner issue, whether that form is the paladin themself saying or thinking it, someone else commenting on it, the paladin visually battling themself, something. They would not just look completely identical in a frame that could be copy/pasted. That's not how it works. That is bad formatting and design.

[The MunchKING]

That's a key element of the stupider part. :smallyuk: Glad 5e got rid of that.

So wait, I'm failing to understand. What is stupid about that? As I said it sounds entirely logical.

[Souju]

Dunno if anyone's brought it up yet, but I see people assuming Serini was scrying or something on the gate at Azure City.

It doesn't have to be that direct. She could have found out about it AFTER the fact through investigation and recreation once the gate was broken and the wards in place preventing it were gone. Like, she could cast one of any number of spells that allow you to contact the dead or other planes to find out what happened (especially since the paladins that died there are now free to go to the afterlife) even being able to ballbust Soon himself into revealing it.

It's also why she wouldn't know about the Godsmoot, since they're still sequestered and the only people that have left it have been the Order and Hel's vampires, who are all gone.
She's also had several months to get the information on Azure City, while the Godsmoot is still happening.


So wait, I'm failing to understand. What is stupid about that? As I said it sounds entirely logical.

It's logical when you're talking about just flesh and blood creatures, but things made out of other stuff still have weakpoints. Skeletons and zombies still have joints and such. In later editions only things that are amorphous or able to mess with their own biology on the fly have protection from precision damage.

[137beth]

Seems like O-Chul ought to be able to swear that he would never consider destroying the final gate. Roy already pointed out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) how the last one is different.

But that's assuming Serini would believe him.

[Renegade Paladin]

Seems like O-Chul ought to be able to swear that he would never consider destroying the final gate. Roy already pointed out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) how the last one is different.

But that's assuming Serini would believe him.

She would believe he meant it, paladins being what they are, but that's not what she's asking him for. She doesn't want to give him a chance; she's being deliberately unfair, probably because she thinks it's funny.

[Good Coyote]

She would believe he meant it, paladins being what they are, but that's not what she's asking him for. She doesn't want to give him a chance; she's being deliberately unfair, probably because she thinks it's funny.

Exactly. He asked for a "going-forward" promise and she gave him a "in the future it will never turn out that in the past this happened" promise. That is extremely deliberate. She knows what she's doing and she doesn't care if he knows that she knows.

And furthermore she wants him to know that she doesn't care if he knows that she knows that he knows. :smalltongue:

[The MunchKING]

It's logical when you're talking about just flesh and blood creatures, but things made out of other stuff still have weakpoints. Skeletons and zombies still have joints and such.

Yeah but they don't USE them. Skeletons are literally held together with dark magic or something, considering they have no muscles or ligaments left. :smallbiggrin:

[Edward15]

To everyone saying that Roy and/or Durkon will get through to Serini, keep in mind that Rich once said that the Order was NOT going to meet any of the Scribblers.

[Anitar]

To everyone saying that Roy and/or Durkon will get through to Serini, keep in mind that Rick once said that the Order was NOT going to meet any of the Scribblers.

I'm sure that's just a typo, but I can't help imagining Rich see your post and react like...
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fe/3b/94/fe3b949aca4ca39111674f0c14d0b897.jpg

[fuschiawarrior]

To everyone saying that Roy and/or Durkon will get through to Serini, keep in mind that Rick once said that the Order was NOT going to meet any of the Scribblers.

Maybe, but remember that Rich sometimes gives answers with the intent to misdirect us the readers. Remember his answer to if Durkula and Durkon were the same person or the answer to question 11 here (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-aug-45605183) (mild spoilers to Start of Darkness on the link). Depending on how it was worded it could easily be said that Serini isn't a Scribbler anymore since that group was disbanded many years ago in the story.

[KorvinStarmast]

So wait, I'm failing to understand. What is stupid about that? As I said it sounds entirely logical. Nvm, souju covered it.

Apologies for the thread drift, I'll stop.

[Peelee]

To everyone saying that Roy and/or Durkon will get through to Serini, keep in mind that Rich once said that the Order was NOT going to meet any of the Scribblers.

Can you remind me of the source? I'm blanking on that at the moment.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah but they don't USE them. Skeletons are literally held together with dark magic or something, considering they have no muscles or ligaments left. :smallbiggrin:

The problem is not the logistics, the problem is that you make an entire class’ main feature useless against certain creatures.

[Edward15]

Maybe, but remember that Rich sometimes gives answers with the intent to misdirect us the readers. Remember his answer to if Durkula and Durkon were the same person or the answer to question 11 here (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-aug-45605183) (mild spoilers to Start of Darkness on the link). Depending on how it was worded it could easily be said that Serini isn't a Scribbler anymore since that group was disbanded many years ago in the story.

Can you remind me of the source? I'm blanking on that at the moment.
Go back over "Blood Runs In The Family". Look at the Author's Notes right when the Order found Girard's Pyramid. You'll see what I'm talking about.

[BriarHobbit]

This is a good comic. There is a lot going on. I am not convinced that the halfling believes that these two paladins could actually find the gate. Sure, she doesn't want them to destroy the last Gate, but there is no reason to believe that the paladins are going to stumble upon it. I think that she doesn't want them to die in a foolish fashion (aka fight Xykon). As others have mentioned, it is easy enough for the paladins to swear that they won't destroy the last Gate.

[Jasdoif]

To everyone saying that Roy and/or Durkon will get through to Serini, keep in mind that Rich once said that the Order was NOT going to meet any of the Scribblers.Can you remind me of the source? I'm blanking on that at the moment.Probably because it requires reading "Girard" as "Soon's adventuring party".



...He was never actually going to be a character that the Order could turn to for help, because I decided early on that I didn't want the remaining members of Soon's adventuring party to be the ones running the show. If Girard is alive, then the story becomes Girard vs. Xykon, with the Order helping out.

[Souju]

Yeah but they don't USE them. Skeletons are literally held together with dark magic or something, considering they have no muscles or ligaments left. :smallbiggrin:

The skeleton still has HP, though. If you take off its head, often times it can't see. If you remove its arm, it can't attack. The idea behind precision damage on a skeleton is like, hitting it just right so the arm or leg falls off.

Amorphous enemies are the exception because they don't need that particular appendage to deal damage, move, etc. Or they can just regrow it in an instant.

[Edward15]

Probably because it requires reading "Girard" as "Soon's adventuring party".



Alright. I may have misinterpreted that part, but you have to admit that considering the Order never met any of the other members, it was understandable how I reached that conclusion.

[Jasdoif]

Alright. I may have misinterpreted that part, but you have to admit that considering the Order never met any of the other members, it was understandable how I reached that conclusion.Blood Runs in the Family does have a lot of specific wording choices that led to reasonable-sounding but inaccurate assumptions; wouldn't be too surprising if writing all the dialog for Tarquin/Malack/HPoH bled over into the commentary a bit.

[Liquor Box]

What a schock that Serini had sensible reasons to capture the paladins and was not in fact evil.


I think all the discussion on whether Serini kidnapping the paladins was evil assumed she had a good reason. The argument was that you shouldn't kidnap someone even if you think you have a reason to do so. I mean if you didn't have a reason to kidnap them, then it would be pretty obviously evil, and there'd be no need for a discussion.

[Good Coyote]

I think all the discussion on whether Serini kidnapping the paladins was evil assumed she had a good reason. The argument was that you shouldn't kidnap someone even if you think you have a reason to do so. I mean if you didn't have a reason to kidnap them, then it would be pretty obviously evil, and there'd be no need for a discussion.

"A good reason" and "a sensible reason" are both entirely different from "a reason."

Roy had no actual authority to leave the bandit leader and her father tied up in the forest. He had a really good reason though. Not evil.

Tarquin had a reason to keep his various wives captive. Just not a good reason. Evil.

[bravelove]

giant is the king of callbacks, it's official, someone get them a crown

[arimareiji]

I think all the discussion on whether Serini kidnapping the paladins was evil assumed she had a good reason. The argument was that you shouldn't kidnap someone even if you think you have a reason to do so. I mean if you didn't have a reason to kidnap them, then it would be pretty obviously evil, and there'd be no need for a discussion.
I'll be very glad if that means we don't have to keep hoeing rototilling pulling out the combine for this figurative row, and digging out rocks that have much more inertia than their mass would suggest. Here's to never again having to lay out the logic and events that substantiated she wasn't just doing it for evil lulz. *clinks glass*
Edit: Refactoring a couple of minor points, for evil lulz. :smallbiggrin:

[Liquor Box]

"A good reason" and "a sensible reason" are both entirely different from "a reason."

Roy had no actual authority to leave the bandit leader and her father tied up in the forest. He had a really good reason though. Not evil.

Tarquin had a reason to keep his various wives captive. Just not a good reason. Evil.

OK. The conversation about whether the kidnapping was evil assumed that Serini did it because she thought that the paladins might be a threat to gates. That they were "well intentioned bunglers" was I think how it was put. This comic suggests that assumption was correct.

Personally I find the logic a bit tenuous. Can Serini really assume that the only possible way the paladins have of stopping Xykon is to destroy the gate? They might have allies to help (they do, and they were talking to the allies just before Serini kidnapped them). Indeed, it seems to me much more logical for Serini to think that the paladins might form part of a group effort to prevent Xykon from taking the gate (even if they are not powerful enough to prevent it themselves) - I actually suspect that is where the plot will take us.

We could talk abotu whether the added information from the latest comic adds any extra nuance to the argument about whether the kidnapping was justified or evil. But I don't think it really changes much, and I don't think it's going to change anyone's mind. Also, I am a bit tired of the conversation, and I get the feeling most others are too. So unless anyone's really keen to talk about it....


I'll be very glad if that means we don't have to keep hoeing roto-tilling pulling out the combine for this row, and digging out rocks that have much more inertia than their mass would suggest. Here's to never again having to lay out the logic and events substantiating that she wasn't doing it for evil lulz. *clinks glass*

I don't think there was ever any question in the previous thread that she didn;t do it for the lulz. I think most people involved said several time the assumption was she was doing it because she thought they were a threat to the gate. There might have been a bit of discussion about whether it was reasonable to think they were a threat, but I don't really think this comic resolves that. But as I said to Coyote, I don;t think any of us want another conversation about that?

[arimareiji]

The problem is not the logistics, the problem is that you make an entire class’ main feature useless against certain creatures.

I think we agree about rogues' main feature, namely "accomplishing otherwise-implausible feats by stealth and surprise". But if you feel bad for them, you probably don't want to ponder the limits on what I think of as bards' main feature. 🎶♪♬ (^_~)


I don't think there was ever any question in the previous thread that she didn;t do it for the lulz. I think most people involved said several time the assumption was she was doing it because she thought they were a threat to the gate.
We heartily agree. Most people did concur she had good reasons, and didn't fight tooth and talon against the evidence.

There might have been a bit of discussion about whether it was reasonable to think they were a threat, but I don't really think this comic resolves that.
That's an interesting characterization, on which opinions will vary.

But as I said to Coyote, I don;t think any of us want another conversation about that?
Once more we heartily agree, as I indicated in the post you replied to. (^_^)/


It appears that Serini is remarkably well informed. I wonder who she's been talking to?

Perhaps - IFCC?

If this was a callout to SNL decades ago, that's awesome. d(^_^)b

Edit: Couldn't resist replying to this one...

[Ruck]

Personally I find the logic a bit tenuous. Can Serini really assume that the only possible way the paladins have of stopping Xykon is to destroy the gate? They might have allies to help (they do, and they were talking to the allies just before Serini kidnapped them). Indeed, it seems to me much more logical for Serini to think that the paladins might form part of a group effort to prevent Xykon from taking the gate (even if they are not powerful enough to prevent it themselves) - I actually suspect that is where the plot will take us.

Yes, I think the bolded is likely true. I don't see this plot ending with Serini being enemies to the Order and their allies.

Regarding the rest, I think you have to remember the risk/reward cost here for Serini. Whether or not you find her reasons tenuous, the cost of letting the paladins do their thing if you're wrong is the end of all existence. I can see why she wouldn't take any chances once it looked like they might try to go find the gate themselves.

[locksmith of lo]

wait! am i crazy or is it when i first read the comic almost immediately after it went up, that xykon was not in the second to last panel? did i miss that or was he added after the fact? :smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

[arimareiji]

wait! am i crazy or is it when i first read the comic almost immediately after it went up, that xykon was not in the second to last panel? did i miss that or was he added after the fact? :smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Thank you for catching this - something about that panel was bothering me, ever since I saw 1228 removed for at least a couple of minutes before it went back up, but I couldn't figure out what.

I think it makes more sense that way, but I'm >60% sure you're right. (Plus, as often as I catch stuff in my posts that I want to edit? I'd have absolutely no room to complain, even if I wanted to.)

Edit: See? (^_~)

[locksmith of lo]

Thank you for catching this - something about that panel was bothering me, ever since I saw 1228 removed for at least a couple of minutes before it went back up, but I couldn't figure out what.


ok, thank you for partially confirming my sanity. :smallwink:

i noticed because there seemed to be some discussion and a discrepancy concerning that panel, and i think it is because the panel initially had only o-chul, partially and not his whole body, and certainly not xykon almost touching his foot. that is i went back and saw that something was different, because it seemed like people were talking about two different things from the same panel. :smallsmile:

[ManuelSacha]

Hahahaha!
I love how she's messing with him. :smallbiggrin:

Now I'm wondering who the other mystery kidnapper is.
Were those two magical servants that stopped existing once they fulfilled their purpose?
Or was it Serini and somebody else thinking that the world was going to end?
And if that's the case... wouldn't that mean that she knows about the Godsmoot, too? :smallconfused:

[Fyraltari]

Hahahaha!
I love how she's messing with him. :smallbiggrin:

Now I'm wondering who the other mystery kidnapper is.
Were those two magical servants that stopped existing once they fulfilled their purpose?
Or was it Serini and somebody else thinking that the world was going to end?
And if that's the case... wouldn't that mean that she knows about the Godsmoot, too? :smallconfused:

Thr green voice was definitely Serini, not only are green speech bubbles very rare in this comic she admits to lying about the effects of the poison dart on the ledge.

I don't think Serini knows about the Godsmoot, but she knows her Gate is the last one standing so she's got reasons to think the world is likely going to end soon.

[littlebum2002]

No she couldn't since Hinjo doesn't know what really happened.

Remember Hinjo asked O-Chul if he destroyed the gate (forgot the strip number) and O-Chul said he thought about it and it was his sword that did it because he didn't want to tarnish Miko's reputation.

So scrying on Hinjo would net you a wrong story and her exact phrasing about "someone" using his personal katana is too on the nose to fit the story Hinjo believes.

But so far this is the EXACT information that Serini has proven she knows. She knows that O-Chul thought about destroying the gate and she knows that his katana did it. So it's entirely possible she WAS scrying on Hinjo (Or V, or Lien) and has incomplete information.

[MoonCat]

It is not relevant to whether O-Chul paused or not, no. You called it a spell and I wanted to let you know it was not a spell. Similarly, if you talk about Mr Scruffy's affect on the politics of Azure City and call Mr. Scruffy a dog, part of my response would be that Mr. Scruffy is not a dog, despite that fact having no bearing on what Mr. Scruffy's affect on the politics of Azure City was. I really did not expect this to be a point of confusion.


That's not how it works. That is bad formatting and design.

Oh, I'm not confused. I'm just wondering why something that makes no difference to the discussion and is so minor generally is worth the pedantry. Do you also correct everyone's grammatical errors in their posts before replying to their content?


Good thing I'm not arguing that any more.

[Theshipening]

They might have allies to help (they do, and they were talking to the allies just before Serini kidnapped them).

They do, and she probably knows that (especially with V continuing their Sendings to her), but she probably also knows that last time these same allies arrived at a Gate before Xykon, they destroyed it, which is exactly what she doesn’t want, because their chances of winning against Xykon are about 0, and even now he and RC would most likely make minced meat of them in a fight, Paladins or not.

[Thecommander236]

I think this means that Serini was watching the other gates, but not random spots around the world where a godsmoot might be.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Kelenius]

I'm going to make a prediction for the next page - the paladins start talking about the order, Serini reveals that she knows about the order as well, and that they just went into the tunnels and bypassed her trap, which would be a surprise for the paladins. Serini would then reveal the method she uses to keep an eye on the order from the distance, and the last frame would be the order, for a transition to the next page which would return to them.

[Riftwolf]

My guess: there's some kind of sensor linking the five gates. Soon believed that the sensing device, similar to the one found in Girard's Pyramid, was the extent of its perception. The rest of the party knew about the back door and chose not to tell Soon, to spare him the ethical quandary.

[Peelee]

Oh, I'm not confused. I'm just wondering why something that makes no difference to the discussion and is so minor generally is worth the pedantry. Do you also correct everyone's grammatical errors in their posts before replying to their content?

As I said, if you called Mr. Scruffy a dog, or said Durkon uses an axe, or called Roy a Barbarian, I would similarly inform you those were not the case. It was also an offhand comment until you continued to question why I said it, which I initially assumed was obvious. I apologize for making that assumption.

[Jasdoif]

Oh, I'm not confused. I'm just wondering why something that makes no difference to the discussion and is so minor generally is worth the pedantry.Consider that if it were a spell, we'd have seen Xykon's magic glow over O-Chul when he cast it like we did when Xykon did paralyze O-Chul with a spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html); and the beat panel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html) wouldn't have been ambiguous at all. It would make all the difference...a situation that wasn't suddenly created just because I happened to bring it up just now; it's been that way all along. That's the general point of pushing for accuracy, the things facts entail are true even before they're recognized.

[King of Nowhere]

But so far this is the EXACT information that Serini has proven she knows. She knows that O-Chul thought about destroying the gate and she knows that his katana did it. So it's entirely possible she WAS scrying on Hinjo (Or V, or Lien) and has incomplete information.

no need for scrying in a protected room. she is an epic rogue, she has allies, contacts. she could have easily learned it by gather information checks. she certainly had reasons to make inquiries after the gate exploded

[bunsen_h]

I mean, I think you either believe the beat panel showed hesitation or it didn't. I don't think it did. I think it was used for dramatic effect, to make the reader wonder "Why hasn't O-Chul swung his sword yet?" and then the next panel reveals why.

On my previous readings of that page, I thought it indicated hesitation. Your interpretation hadn't occurred to me, but I think it makes more sense than my original read.

EDIT:

no need for scrying in a protected room. she is an epic rogue, she has allies, contacts. she could have easily learned it by gather information checks. she certainly had reasons to make inquiries after the gate exploded

I suspect that we'll get the "how did you know that?" in the next page or two.

[sihnfahl]

My guess: there's some kind of sensor linking the five gates. Soon believed that the sensing device, similar to the one found in Girard's Pyramid, was the extent of its perception. The rest of the party knew about the back door and chose not to tell Soon, to spare him the ethical quandary.
Yes, that was confirmed 277 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

They were all linked. 'Working' or 'Broken' was it. But up until they were 'broken', technically nobody would check in.

Technically cause it would tie Soon up. The others? Well, didn't keep them from asking afterwards if they'd check up on one another from time to time.

[Thermophille]

I don't think people are reading enough into why Serini is saying/doing what she is. If she had any intention of giving them amnesia juice and sending them on their way, would she tell them? She'd say she was an ally, get all the information she could from the trusting paladins, and then feed it to them.

Instead, she's telling them she doesn't trust them and, aside from how on earth she knows the specifics of how Soon's gate was destroyed, is clearly baiting them into arguing their case for why they are trustworthy. Once they do this, she 'reluctantly' accepts their help, since a pair of mid-levelled paladins will absolutely not hurt against a lich. They'll mention the expected reinforcements, and then...

Speaking of which, though... I'm wondering which will happen first; the paladins telling her about OotS, or the ambush on Xykon. I doubt Serini wants them doing that ambush right now without all the support they can get. Just a few weeks ago, everyone was talking about how even with surprise and breaking up Team Evil, the Order barely stands a chance, but with an Epic rogue and a pair of paladins, that might turn out differently.

[elros]

My guess: there's some kind of sensor linking the five gates. Soon believed that the sensing device, similar to the one found in Girard's Pyramid, was the extent of its perception. The rest of the party knew about the back door and chose not to tell Soon, to spare him the ethical quandary.
We know there is a monitoring device that tracked the status of the gates (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html), but it did not appear that any other information was shared. We also know that Soon never broke his vow (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), but Lirian and Dorukan kept in touch with each other (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). I would not have been surprised if Serini wanted to keep in touch with Girard because she had a crush on him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html), but she admitted that Girard was paranoid and I don't see him allowing anyone to know how he is doing.
I think Serini was spying on the other gates, but she never shared that information with the other members, lest they know she was spying on them, too.

[Good Coyote]

The more I think about it, the more I really like the idea that she got the information from Soon. For Soon's sake, almost.

His oath ended with the Gate, just like everyone else. Now he can finally talk to his old friend. And I do think they were friends at some point. Maybe he was always just coworkers with Girard. But I've been thinking recently about the trope of characters who make friends in unlikely places, and how sometimes that wraps all the way around to making "the normal places" an unlikely place to make friends.

Is Serini open-minded enough that she can loop all the way back around to making friends with paladins? Would love if that's the way it plays out, but that's more "a story I would like to see" than "a story that I have reason to think is likely here."



snips

Yep! I still have no arguments to present on whether or not her reasons were good or sensible or "good enough to not be evil."

I just didn't think you actually meant to imply that it is always evil to confine by force with no legal authority (or "kidnap") even when you do have a good reason. Seemed better to nip that misunderstanding in the bud.

As long as that's not the case, Roy and I have no bone to pick and no steak in the argument. :smalltongue:

[sihnfahl]

I think Serini was spying on the other gates, but she never shared that information with the other members, lest they know she was spying on them, too.
Or another explanation - with the gate destroyed, the agreement voided, so she used her resources to find out exactly what happened after the fact.

[Dion]

Can Serini really assume that the only possible way the paladins have of stopping Xykon is to destroy the gate?

I doubt anyone has made that argument, so I won’t address it.

But there’s a very similar question I will address: can Serini really assume that one likely way the paladins will stop Xykon is to destroy the gate?

Yes. Yes she probably can assume that. She has plenty of evidence that’s the case, since three of the four previous gates were destroyed for that reason (one of them by a paladin standing in front of her, and one by the group of incompetent nitwits who keep trying to do sending to her, who also managed to blow one up by accident). And she actually says as much in the comic.

So either she’s lying about her motives, or yes. She really can plausibly assume that both the paladins a the OotS are likely to try to stop Xykon by destroying the gate as a last resort.

[Doug Lampert]

But so far this is the EXACT information that Serini has proven she knows. She knows that O-Chul thought about destroying the gate and she knows that his katana did it. So it's entirely possible she WAS scrying on Hinjo (Or V, or Lien) and has incomplete information.
no need for scrying in a protected room. she is an epic rogue, she has allies, contacts. she could have easily learned it by gather information checks. she certainly had reasons to make inquiries after the gate exploded

She need not scry into a protected room to get the report that O'Chul made to Hinjo, which was after all made OUT DOORS and on another continent from the protected room everyone seems to somehow think is relevant.

[Silent Wrangler]

My guess: there's some kind of sensor linking the five gates. Soon believed that the sensing device, similar to the one found in Girard's Pyramid, was the extent of its perception. The rest of the party knew about the back door and chose not to tell Soon, to spare him the ethical quandary.


I don't think people are reading enough into why Serini is saying/doing what she is. If she had any intention of giving them amnesia juice and sending them on their way, would she tell them? She'd say she was an ally, get all the information she could from the trusting paladins, and then feed it to them.

Instead, she's telling them she doesn't trust them and, aside from how on earth she knows the specifics of how Soon's gate was destroyed, is clearly baiting them into arguing their case for why they are trustworthy. Once they do this, she 'reluctantly' accepts their help, since a pair of mid-levelled paladins will absolutely not hurt against a lich. They'll mention the expected reinforcements, and then...

Speaking of which, though... I'm wondering which will happen first; the paladins telling her about OotS, or the ambush on Xykon. I doubt Serini wants them doing that ambush right now without all the support they can get. Just a few weeks ago, everyone was talking about how even with surprise and breaking up Team Evil, the Order barely stands a chance, but with an Epic rogue and a pair of paladins, that might turn out differently.
Especially seeing as she has a supply of really good sleep poison capable of taking out paladins. That would really come in handy for the whole "keep RC alive" deal.

[TheNecrocomicon]

The more I think about it, the more I really like the idea that she got the information from Soon. For Soon's sake, almost.

I'm starting to concur. She could easily have hired a cleric or purchased an artifact that allowed her to commune with his spirit between the Material Plane and the Southerners' afterlife (or whatever demi-afterlife he was inhabiting until he returned as a spirit) and Soon could have told her how it happened.

It would actually be a prudent course of action so that Serini could be forewarned and prevent it happening from her Gate. And it would also fit her contention of being less paranoid than Girard.

[Clistenes]

I wonder how will Serini react when she learns that the gods are going to destroy the world anyways if Xykon comes closer to the Gate...

[Rogar Demonblud]

Let's take a step closer. What happens when she finds out that the random goblin lackey is The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, High Priest of the Dark One and quite possibly low Epic by this point? That info will probably upset whatever calculations she's made and motivate her to change plans.

[arimareiji]

I don't think people are reading enough into why Serini is saying/doing what she is. If she had any intention of giving them amnesia juice and sending them on their way, would she tell them? She'd say she was an ally, get all the information she could from the trusting paladins, and then feed it to them.

Instead, she's telling them she doesn't trust them and, aside from how on earth she knows the specifics of how Soon's gate was destroyed, is clearly baiting them into arguing their case for why they are trustworthy. Once they do this, she 'reluctantly' accepts their help, since a pair of mid-levelled paladins will absolutely not hurt against a lich. They'll mention the expected reinforcements, and then...

Speaking of which, though... I'm wondering which will happen first; the paladins telling her about OotS, or the ambush on Xykon. I doubt Serini wants them doing that ambush right now without all the support they can get. Just a few weeks ago, everyone was talking about how even with surprise and breaking up Team Evil, the Order barely stands a chance, but with an Epic rogue and a pair of paladins, that might turn out differently.

It might sound weird to say, but although I think this is a really good point I wandered my way to a different conclusion.

I agree: It deserves analysis, why is Serini talking to them so freely if she's just going to wipe their memory of the conversation? But I think the last couple of panels are crucial to understanding why. She's using an ESP potion to read O-Chul's surface thoughts, which is why she probes for him to start thinking about when the Gate was destroyed (then gets her answer, which she immediately tells us).

Maybe she's trying to find out whether she wants their help? But in the last few panels, she tells them in not-quite-so-many words that there's zero chance she can trust their judgment. Or maybe she's probing for information? As far as we can see on the surface, she's the one giving the information - although it's suspiciously well-timed to what we see O-Chul thinking about.

Which brings me to the different conclusion I reached: She was telling the truth, and she does plan to wipe their memory of the conversation afterward. That might change, but it's going to take something unexpected.
Edit: Minor refactor

[Thermophille]

She was telling the truth, and she does plan to wipe their memory of the conversation afterward. That might change, but it's going to take something unexpected.
Edit: Minor refactor

Serini is an admitted liar, though. I could've sword there's a quote somewhere in the comic about trusting admitted liars, but I can't place it.

Admittedly, the idea of using an ESP potion or something is probably the best explanation for how she knows that oddly specific factoid, but I can't help but feel that she's letting the paladins talk freely because she wants their help, but also wants to be convinced.

[Clearbridge]

Long time reader, first time commenting, but something is really bugging me.

Trolls and goblin have the same issue right? They're just seen as fodder to gain XP in this world. So RC and the goblinoids plans to change their status should be appealing to Trolls as well, why wouldn't they want to tag along? And we have an entire strip about how Selini is friend with the Trolls and even is partially one, I would be surprised if that isn't going to come into play. Basically the question is, sure, Selini doesn't want the gate to be destroyed, she doesn't want Xykon to win, but why wouldn't she support RC or at the very least his plan?

She protects the Gate, but maybe not for those we think, maybe she knows about the Dark One, maybe SHE is the one he talks to since he doesn't talk to RC. plus she seems pretty chaotic, which would fit, she has no allegiance I can think of, but she does have green friends.

She doesn't want the Gate destroyed, she wants to control it to better the status of her troll friends, using RC in the process. And if the world is rebooted to give them that new status, it would explain the "existing was fun while it lasted part", because why would she know what the DO ignores, aka that he may not make it into the next iteration? All in all, her behavior could well fit into that explanation...Thoughts? "Yes? No? Just spitballing here"

[Giggling Ghast]

Trolls and goblin have the same issue right? They're just seen as fodder to gain XP in this world. So RC and the goblinoids plans to change their status should be appealing to Trolls as well, why wouldn't they want to tag along?

Except the Dark One's focus is on bettering the lot of goblinoids, not the other monster races. This "blackmail the gods" scheme is going to be difficult enough to pull off without having to negotiate for better lands and more rights on behalf of kobolds, orcs, trolls, ogres, troglodytes, lizard men, etc.

Besides, trolls aren't low-level XP fodder like goblins. A troll is a significant threat to your average tiny village. They do as much pushing around as they do getting pushed..

[Thermophille]

Long time reader, first time commenting, but something is really bugging me.

Trolls and goblin have the same issue right? They're just seen as fodder to gain XP in this world. So RC and the goblinoids plans to change their status should be appealing to Trolls as well, why wouldn't they want to tag along? And we have an entire strip about how Selini is friend with the Trolls and even is partially one, I would be surprised if that isn't going to come into play. Basically the question is, sure, Selini doesn't want the gate to be destroyed, she doesn't want Xykon to win, but why wouldn't she support RC or at the very least his plan?

She protects the Gate, but maybe not for those we think, maybe she knows about the Dark One, maybe SHE is the one he talks to since he doesn't talk to RC. plus she seems pretty chaotic, which would fit, she has no allegiance I can think of, but she does have green friends.

She doesn't want the Gate destroyed, she wants to control it to better the status of her troll friends, using RC in the process. And if the world is rebooted to give them that new status, it would explain the "existing was fun while it lasted part", because why would she know what the DO ignores, aka that he may not make it into the next iteration? All in all, her behavior could well fit into that explanation...Thoughts? "Yes? No? Just spitballing here"

Unless red-voice is a troll, we don't currently have reason to believe that her relationship with trolls is any deeper than favor for a favor 80 years ago. Not that there isn't one, but there isn't any indication as of now.

As for whether she wants to use the ritual herself for pretty much the same reasons as Redcloack, I find that highly unlikely. If that were the case, she would have killed the paladins and the Order, to help Xykon and Redcloack succeed. In fact, she would have just led them to the Gate, since she would want the ritual performed in that scenario, and she would have used that help to bargain with the Dark One to extend his deal to other monstrous races in addition to goblins. I'm all for speculation, but there is a great deal of evidence against this theory.

[arimareiji]

Serini is an admitted liar, though. I could've sword there's a quote somewhere in the comic about trusting admitted liars, but I can't place it.

Admittedly, the idea of using an ESP potion or something is probably the best explanation for how she knows that oddly specific factoid, but I can't help but feel that she's letting the paladins talk freely because she wants their help, but also wants to be convinced.

Just my take, but I think Serini trolls/lies for lulz the same way Roy snarks for lulz. And I'd venture they come from the same place, mockery without malice.

Setting that aside, what's the best way to subvert expectations? Mix truth with lies, and a paladin will be floundering for which is which. "She told us she's going to wipe our memories, so there's no point in talking to us. But here she's not only talking to us but even [apparently] giving us information about how much she knows. Obviously I should keep talking with her in the hope of convincing her, even though she just all-but-explicitly-told me that she can't trust our judgment."

(I think it's admirable of O-Chul, and I think Serini's taking unfair advantage - but I definitely haven't switched to the Look At Serini Eating Crackers Like She Owns The Place crowd. I think she's doing the best she can to keep the universe from ending, not with a bang but an "Oops!", and I think she has excellent reason to believe so.)

[Thermophille]

Either way, I suspect that the real reason Serini is talking to the paladins will be delved into fully within the next 3 comics.

[Ruck]

Oh, I'm not confused. I'm just wondering why something that makes no difference to the discussion and is so minor generally is worth the pedantry. Do you also correct everyone's grammatical errors in their posts before replying to their content?

You're on a forum full of nerd fans of a comic strip based on a game with a complex and often byzantine set of rules. Of course people are pedantic about those rules and details. :smallbiggrin:


Unless red-voice is a troll, we don't currently have reason to believe that her relationship with trolls is any deeper than favor for a favor 80 years ago. Not that there isn't one, but there isn't any indication as of now.

Where'd you get "80 years ago"?


On my previous readings of that page, I thought it indicated hesitation. Your interpretation hadn't occurred to me, but I think it makes more sense than my original read.

Peelee explained it better and in more detail than I did, so I didn't feel like I needed to get any further with mine. But yeah, I think it's a beat panel.


Long time reader, first time commenting, but something is really bugging me.



Trolls and goblin have the same issue right? They're just seen as fodder to gain XP in this world. So RC and the goblinoids plans to change their status should be appealing to Trolls as well, why wouldn't they want to tag along? And we have an entire strip about how Selini is friend with the Trolls and even is partially one, I would be surprised if that isn't going to come into play. Basically the question is, sure, Selini doesn't want the gate to be destroyed, she doesn't want Xykon to win, but why wouldn't she support RC or at the very least his plan?

She protects the Gate, but maybe not for those we think, maybe she knows about the Dark One, maybe SHE is the one he talks to since he doesn't talk to RC. plus she seems pretty chaotic, which would fit, she has no allegiance I can think of, but she does have green friends.

She doesn't want the Gate destroyed, she wants to control it to better the status of her troll friends, using RC in the process. And if the world is rebooted to give them that new status, it would explain the "existing was fun while it lasted part", because why would she know what the DO ignores, aka that he may not make it into the next iteration? All in all, her behavior could well fit into that explanation...Thoughts? "Yes? No? Just spitballing here"

Heh, I was just re-reading the Book 7 strips last night, and while I don't know if I took it as far as you did, the parallel between the trolls' lot in life and the goblins' definitely occured to me.

[luagha]

Let's take a step closer. What happens when she finds out that the random goblin lackey is The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, High Priest of the Dark One and quite possibly low Epic by this point? That info will probably upset whatever calculations she's made and motivate her to change plans.

I will definitely say that this sequence of comics have gotten me near screaming at the screen with what O-chul SHOULD say in this situation.

In that way it is a rousing success.

[Peelee]

Peelee explained it better and in more detail than I did, so I didn't feel like I needed to get any further with mine. But yeah, I think it's a beat panel.

I also cheated; in my early 20s I had a book about how to draw comics, which went into a lot of detail about the medium.

[Ruck]

I also cheated; in my early 20s I had a book about how to draw comics, which went into a lot of detail about the medium.

I dunno if it was Understanding Comics, but that immediately made me think of Scott McCloud, whose work I generally enjoy.

Comics aren't really my medium, but I have enough experience with storytelling, both academic and practical, that the beat purpose of the panel made inherent sense to me.

[Anitar]

A thought: The way Serini phrases the first panel, she's specifically avoiding any mention of Orangevoice. For that matter, she didn't say a word to/about Orangevoice in #1189 until both paladins were down for the count. What's the point of keeping this (apparent) minion's existence a secret from them?

A second, unrelated thought: I still don't get what the deal with her cloak is. It's way too big for a halfling. My first thought was that she could have gotten it from the trolls... but no, it's too small for them.

And a third: I guess Serini's appearance isn't counted as a spoiler anymore, if it's on full display in the comic announcement's (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/1368927525909446659) thumbnail?

[Jasdoif]

A thought: The way Serini phrases the first panel, she's specifically avoiding any mention of Orangevoice. For that matter, she didn't say a word to/about Orangevoice in #1189 until both paladins were down for the count. What's the point of keeping this (apparent) minion's existence a secret from them?Maintaining the element of surprise?

[DLcygnet]

That throne room was protected from scrying by a spell powerful enough to keep Xykon from looking inside, yet Serini seems to know what happened there.I wonder how she got that information.

There were only 2 other people present that she might willingly talk to. Soon's spirit, assuming she has another friend that would let her commune with him. Or Miko. And I have no idea what convoluted plot twist it would take to resurrect her.

UNLESS she happened to scry on the Azure city crew right as V and O'chul teleported in on top of everybody after their escape from Xykon... "twas my blade that did the deed."

[Peelee]

There were only 2 other people present that she might willingly talk to. Soon's spirit, assuming she has another friend that would let her commune with him. Or Miko. And I have no idea what convoluted plot twist it would take to resurrect her.

3 other people. Why would Serini not use an excellent source like the Oracle?

[bunsen_h]

3 other people. Why would Serini not use an excellent source like the Oracle?

The "one question per client per visit" rule is limiting. Bringing other people along to ask additional questions is possible, but how many people can be trusted? Orange-voice, presumably, but others?

[Peelee]

The "one question per client per visit" rule is limiting. Bringing other people along to ask additional questions is possible, but how many people can be trusted? Orange-voice, presumably, but others?

Asking "what happened to the last Gate" each time a Gate falls is only one question.:smallamused:

[Anitar]

Asking "what happened to the last Gate" each time a Gate falls is only one question.:smallamused:

"It broke."

[Peelee]

"It broke."

Again, no reason to think the Oracle isn't as much of a jerk to Serini as he is to humans and a halfling that is going to kill him.

And, at the very least, we know that adventurers half her level were able to hang the Oracle out a window and get a more detailed answer, so there's an alternate for ya.

[Wildstag]

So with the way she judges O-Chul, does this mean she does not know about the Godsmoot, or more specifically, the extent to which O-Chul knows about the Godsmoot? Because at this point destroying the gate does nothing; the Gods would rather end the world than see the gate used against them, so their best options don't involve destroying the gate. It is fighting until death to prevent Xykon from reaching the gate.

[Ruck]

Asking "what happened to the last Gate" each time a Gate falls is only one question.:smallamused:


"It broke."


Again, no reason to think the Oracle isn't as much of a jerk to Serini as he is to humans and a halfling that is going to kill him.

And, at the very least, we know that adventurers half her level were able to hang the Oracle out a window and get a more detailed answer, so there's an alternate for ya.

The question could also be more specific-- "Who broke the gate?" or "How was the last Gate destroyed?" or something like that.

[Kelenius]

Again, no reason to think the Oracle isn't as much of a jerk to Serini as he is to humans and a halfling that is going to kill him.

To add to this, the Oracle seems genuinely concerned about the state of the gates, considering he tried to correct Roy's question.

I don't think he's the source of her information, though. That would be the fourth time his prophecies are used to kick-start a plot? Seems unlikely to me.

[4sigma]

A second, unrelated thought: I still don't get what the deal with her cloak is. It's way too big for a halfling. My first thought was that she could have gotten it from the trolls... but no, it's too small for them.

I'm also curious about this. My current best theory is that it's a (human sized) magic item such as a cloak of fire resistance that Serini wears it because her troll flesh is vulnerable to fire. But I admit I don't really love that theory. I think in the D&D universe, magical clothing tends to resize to fit the wearer? I don't recall Belkar having any wrong-sized magic items, for example.

The staff that she carries is also rather large for her. Maybe she has that because she needs to stir the large cauldron, but then why such a large cauldron instead of a halfling-sized one? I guess the cauldron could also be a human-sized magic item.

Alternate theory is that this has something to do with orange-voice. I.e. maybe the cloak confers the knowledge of potion-making and has to be worn when operating the magic cauldron. If orange-voice is human-sized and also uses the cauldron, then the cloak, staff, and cauldron are human-sized so that either orange-voice or Sereni can use them.

Again, not sure I really love that theory either. Anyone else got a better one?

[dancrilis]

Serini is an admitted liar, though. I could've sword there's a quote somewhere in the comic about trusting admitted liars, but I can't place it.


Here you go. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html)
It was referenced here in comic. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html)

[Riftwolf]

So with the way she judges O-Chul, does this mean she does not know about the Godsmoot, or more specifically, the extent to which O-Chul knows about the Godsmoot? Because at this point destroying the gate does nothing; the Gods would rather end the world than see the gate used against them, so their best options don't involve destroying the gate. It is fighting until death to prevent Xykon from reaching the gate.

But O-Chul doesn't really know about the Godsmoot either. Assuming V sent a sending to him (which I'd question, as it's not like him knowing is going to help), it's limited to 25 words. He and Lien didn't react with a huge amount of relief when V said crisis had been delayed, which you'd expect from two people who'd found out Deus was Exing your Machinas.
The Godsmoot isn't going to be important in this book (unless it is), as it was mainly a driving force in the last book and now mostly out of the protagonists hands. I doubt Serini knows or cares what the Gods are doing, as she's got zero ability to affect that outcome.

[Mic_128]

I
I agree: It deserves analysis, why is Serini talking to them so freely if she's just going to wipe their memory of the conversation?

My thinking is it's for her own enjoyment. She said she "doesn't blend in with halfling society anymore" and talks about "belonging out here with the monsters" so they're likely the first non-trolls she's spoken with for decades (with the posible exception of Orange Text, whoever they are.) It's also probably the first time in even longer she can talk about the Gates with anyone (except for Orange Text, again)

Especially after this past year, I think we all know how much being isolated and only having a small group to talk with can suck, so I can easily see this being a chance to enjoy conversation before doping them up and sending them on their way.

[Peelee]

To add to this, the Oracle seems genuinely concerned about the state of the gates, considering he tried to correct Roy's question.

I don't think he's the source of her information, though. That would be the fourth time his prophecies are used to kick-start a plot? Seems unlikely to me.

Nitpick, but is it a prophecy if it happened in the past? It's happened before with the ABD asking who killed her son. The Oracle is a known potential source of information in Srickworld, after all.

[Schroeswald]

You're on a forum full of nerd fans of a comic strip based on a game with a complex and often byzantine set of rules. Of course people are pedantic about those rules and details. :smallbiggrin:

I’ve seen much more pedantic arguments here than Peelee correcting a minor factual inaccuracy, I’m even in several peoples sigs because of one.

[Peelee]

I dunno if it was Understanding Comics, but that immediately made me think of Scott McCloud, whose work I generally enjoy.

Comics aren't really my medium, but I have enough experience with storytelling, both academic and practical, that the beat purpose of the panel made inherent sense to me.

BTW, it was not but I did get that one in college for a lit course.

[Kelenius]

Nitpick, but is it a prophecy if it happened in the past? It's happened before with the ABD asking who killed her son. The Oracle is a known potential source of information in Srickworld, after all.

He says "your prophecy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)".

He also says "murky depths of the future (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)", "I've seen your futures (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)", "power to see the future (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)", "visions of the future (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html)", but I don't see him referring to knowing the past or anything of the sort.

In conclusion: he's making prophecies and can only see the future, but, presumably, he's able to work around it similarly to how he could figure out what Haley was saying.

On that note, I actually forgot about ABD. Which means that if Serini learned her information from the Oracle, that would make it the fifth time the Oracle was driving the plot after:

1) Roy getting Xykon's location for the first time
2) Roy asking about the gates
3) ABD
4) Haley visiting him with Roy's body

I suppose it's not impossible but I don't expect the same plot thread to be reused five times.

[Peelee]

He says "your prophecy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)".

He also says "murky depths of the future (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)", "I've seen your futures (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)", "power to see the future (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)", "visions of the future (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html)", but I don't see him referring to knowing the past or anything of the sort.

In conclusion: he's making prophecies and can only see the future, but, presumably, he's able to work around it similarly to how he could figure out what Haley was saying.

On that note, I actually forgot about ABD. Which means that if Serini learned her information from the Oracle, that would make it the fifth time the Oracle was driving the plot after:

1) Roy getting Xykon's location for the first time
2) Roy asking about the gates
3) ABD
4) Haley visiting him with Roy's body

I suppose it's not impossible but I don't expect the same plot thread to be reused five times.

Roy also asked where Xykon is, which is present tense, not past.

Also, for what it's worth, you also doubted the Oracle would come up a fourth time before being reminded of the fourth time, soooooo... :smalltongue:

That being said, this is not a hill I'm willing to die on. I'm just noting it is a definite possibility that I am not at all discounting.

[KorvinStarmast]

Admittedly, the idea of using an ESP potion or something Seems plausible.

Besides, trolls aren't low-level XP fodder like goblins. A troll is a significant threat to your average tiny village. They do as much pushing around as they do getting pushed.. Trolls all like the band Chumbawumba, I suspect.
I get knocked down, and I get up again ... and IIRC, they are Giant type not Goblinoid type. (Unless I am mixing editions in my head).

"It broke." Just like Sgt Helka ... blowed up, sir!

a cloak of fire resistance that Serini wears it because her troll flesh is vulnerable to fire. Seems plausible.

I doubt Serini knows or cares what the Gods are doing, as she's got zero ability to affect that outcome. She seems practical. Focus on what you have control of, and not what you don't.

I suppose it's not impossible but I don't expect the same plot thread to be reused five times. I'm with Peelee on this one, and particularly since the Oracle seems to have a strong linkage with Tiamat, who we have not yet heard from beyond the butt-chewing one of the IFCC directors got over the phone.

[Dion]

I wonder how much Serini knows about the order of the stick.

I can think of two possibilities:

1) she heavily invested in scrying protection after Xykon did a scry-and-die, and she’s received no sendings and doesn’t know OotS is nearby, or

2) she received the sendings, and decided not to work with the nitwits who destroyed two gates already.

Of course, those aren’t exclusive possibilities. She might know the OotS destroyed the gates and want nothing to do with them, but not know that they’re at this gate already.

[danielxcutter]

I wonder how much Serini knows about the order of the stick.

I can think of two possibilities:

1) she heavily invested in scrying detection after Xykon did a scry-and-die, and she’s received no sendings and doesn’t know OotS is nearby, or

2) she knows all about them, and has decided not to work with the nitwits who destroyed two gates already.

Of course, those aren’t exclusive possibilities. She might know they destroyed the gates, amd not want to work with the , but not that they’re at this gate already.

Sending isn't a scrying spell. Unless she's spent almost all her time in this hideout and it's on another plane somehow, she would have gotten it.

[Fyraltari]

Nitpick, but is it a prophecy if it happened in the past? It's happened before with the ABD asking who killed her son. The Oracle is a known potential source of information in Srickworld, after all.

Strictly speaking, "prophecy" doesn't mean "vision of the future" it means "message from a deity", which is why the term "prophet" usually has religious connotations*. Given the source of the Oracle's powers, I'd say that qualifies.


*Like pretty much everything that has to do with magic in general and future-sight in particular, but this one especially so.

[Goblin_Priest]

All events inevitably become past events.

[Ruck]

My thinking is it's for her own enjoyment. She said she "doesn't blend in with halfling society anymore" and talks about "belonging out here with the monsters" so they're likely the first non-trolls she's spoken with for decades (with the posible exception of Orange Text, whoever they are.)

As long as we're talking nitpicking and pedantry: Has it been decades? The timeline isn't entirely clear, but I don't think it has.

The fight at Lirian's Gate was 27 years before the start of the comic, but he only tracked down Redcloak again and told him he'd figured out the location of Dorukan's Gate from Serini's diary 3 years ago. I figure, then, that he must have gotten the diary much closer to the latter than the former.)

[Peelee]

Strictly speaking, "prophecy" doesn't mean "vision of the future" it means "message from a deity", which is why the term "prophet" usually has religious connotations*. Given the source of the Oracle's powers, I'd say that qualifies.


*Like pretty much everything that has to do with magic in general and future-sight in particular, but this one especially so.

That's fair.

[Dion]

Sending isn't a scrying spell.

Hmm... interesting. Why couldn’t Durkon and V contact Haley when they were separated, if none of the spells and magic items that protect from Scrying do anything to affect Sending?