Color Spray vs. Sleep

[Segev]

Sleep and color spray share an interestingly similar mechanic in 5e, giving you a large pool of hit points you roll to "spend" on those who have fewer than your remaining amount to inflict status conditions on. Color spray has 1 more die and a larger die type (6d10, as opposed to sleep's 5d8), but is self(15-foot-cone) instead of 90 feet (20 foot sphere), and inflicts Blindness as opposed to Unconsciousness. Unconsciousness is certainly a stronger condition, but to be fair, more things are immune.

Color spray's range and AoE are both significantly smaller, but it will tend to affect more creatures. Specifically, 6d10 will affect an average of 33 hp, while 5d8 will affect an average of 22.5 hp. Color spray also will scale better, adding an average 11 hp per spell slot level vs. sleep's average of 9 hp per spell slot level.

Interestingly, this means that sleep will actually have more possible targets in its AoE, but will be able to affect fewer than color spray theoretically could. On the other hand, color spray can catch fewer total targets, but can affect bigger ones.

If you can blind a creature, it's going to have a hard time in combat. Disadvantage, at best, to attack anything, and it may well not be able to figure out where to aim its attacks at all. It also grants Advantage to all attacks against it, making it pretty solid for Arcane Tricksters who want to land more sneak attacks.

However, knocking a creature unconscious achieves all that and more, denying actions and silencing foes. Catch a cluster of guards in a sleep spell and they'll never raise an
alarm. On the other hand, a lot easier to awaken somebody who is asleep than to de-blind somebody blinded. ...but then we look at color spray more closely: they remain blinded
only until the end of the caster's next turn. Good for one sneak attack, at best, unless you have multiple rogues in the party. Sure, you can color spray and then bonus action hide (if you ARE a rogue, and not a full caster instead), but if you hit them with sleep, you wouldn't NEED to.

I was going to ask for comparison between these and people's opinions, but just writing out this post has made me lean heavily towards sleep. Is there any reason for a wizard or (especially) an Arcane Trickster to consider color spray over sleep? When the effect only lasts one round for color spray, I'm not even sure the extra creature or so it might affect is worth it. Especially since you have to be up in their face (no more than 15 feet away) for color spray but could be hiding 110 feet away from the furthest target you hit with sleep.

Am I missing something, now, or did they over-nerf color spray in the move to 5e? Is the number of creatures immune to magical sleep sufficiently greater than the number unaffected by blindness to make a significant difference?

[LumenPlacidum]

Personally, I would consider the primary reason why people don't take Color Spray to be its 1 round duration, as opposed to Sleep's 1 minute duration. Both spells are really only useful for clearing chaff. But, in the case of Color Spray, it's a momentary respite. For Sleep, it may very well knock them out of the fight.

[Snails]

Since these spells are primarily for dealing with mooks, hampering more mooks for 1 round might actually be better than taking fewer out of the fight. At least it might look that way while theory-crafting.

But the reality is that does not happen with Color Spray, due to the practical limitations of the small AoE. You have to be happy enough catching 2 enemies in the Color Spray, and thrilled to catch 3. Color Spray does not typically affect more enemies. It affects fewer, on average, than Sleep does in most real world situations.

Sleep is just easier to use and has huge synergies with AoE damaging effects. I have seen the Wizard hit the room with a Fireball, and then the Bard upcast a Sleep to 2nd level to drop 5 enemies. Color Spray would have only affected 2 enemies in this situation. What does it matter about the number of HP rolled here?

While one might make the argument that it works differently for a Wizard choosing between these to spells for himself, I think it does not typically turn out that way. Because the Wizard does not want to wade so close to the fighting.

[heavyfuel]

Personally, I would consider the primary reason why people don't take Color Spray to be its 1 round duration, as opposed to Sleep's 1 minute duration. Both spells are really only useful for clearing chaff. But, in the case of Color Spray, it's a momentary respite. For Sleep, it may very well knock them out of the fight.

This is, truly, the biggest disadvantage of CS of Sleep.

CS would've been considerably better if it also had a 1 minute duration but allowed the target a Con save each round to negate the effect or something (maybe the target has to use its action to clear its view)

As it stands, the slightly better HP pool of CS doesn't usually matter. You're probably not going to risk preparing/knowing it over Sleep and then risk having to get in close with enemies because of its 11 extra HP. That's the biggest cost here. If you had both, you could reasonably use CS over Sleep sometimes, but since there's such a huge overlap between the spells, you're probably only going to choose one of them, and Sleep is the better, more general one.

[Segev]

But the reality is that does not happen with Color Spray, due to the practical limitations of the small AoE. You have to be happy enough catching 2 enemies in the Color Spray, and thrilled to catch 3. Color Spray does not typically affect more enemies. It affects fewer, on average, than Sleep does in most real world situations.

Heck, a cone would need to be 50 ft. in order to match a 20 ft. radius sphere of effect.

[AdAstra]

Well, imo, Color Spray is, while not bad per se, nowhere near as good as Sleep. Most guides that have spell ratings seem to think the same way. From my knowledge CS was widely considered subpar pretty much the moment people looked at the spell section, because Sleep's right there to compare it to.

Color Spray's ONLY upside is being able to affect more HP worth of enemies. The downsides are many and very serious.

[Segev]

In older editions, color spray had decreasing effect based on the power of the targets, with what we have in 5e being slightly different from but about on par with the effect it had on creatures of 5 HD or more. I've got a couple of ideas to re-introduce the gradations, and I've also pushed the AoE to a 50 ft. cone in both versions here (55 squares in a 50-ft cone, vs. 52 squares in a 20-ft. radius sphere). Admittedly, cones becomes more...interesting...when you let fliers drop them top-down on the map, but...hey.

These are both probably over-complicated, but I'm interested in ideas to refine them or better ideas for how to make color spray comparable to sleep. Though that may not be feasible.

A dazzling array of flashing, colored light springs from your hand. Roll 6d10; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can effect. Creatures in a 50-foot cone originating from you are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures and creatures that can't see).

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell is blinded. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on to the creature with the next lowest hit points. A creature's hit points must be equal to or less than the remaining total for that creature to be affected.

All creatures in the cone must make a Wisdom save. Those that are blinded and succeed on the save are blinded only until the end of your next turn. Those that are blinded and fail the save are knocked unconscious until the end of your next turn, and are blinded until the end of your turn after that. Those that are not blinded and fail the save are stunned until the end of your next turn. Those that are not blinded and succeed on the save are unaffected.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 2d10 for each slot level above 1st.


A dazzling array of flashing colors springs from your hand in a coruscating overlapping cone of blue, red, and yellow light. Roll 6d10, and separate the highest two dice into a "blue" pool, the lowest into a "yellow" pool, and the remaining two into a "red" pool. The total is how many hit points of creatures each color can effect. Creatures in a 50-foot cone originating from you are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures and creatures that can't see). All three cones overlap completely.

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell is blinded until the end of your next turn. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on to the creature with the next lowest hit points. A creature's hit points must be equal to or less than the remaining total in the pool for that creature to be affected, starting with the blue pool, then adding any excess hit points in it to the red pool once no further creatures can be entirely covered by the blue pool, and repeating the process to add extra red hit points to the yellow pool.

Creatures affected entirely by the blue pool are knocked unconscious until the end of your next turn, then blinded and stunned until the end of your next turn after that, and blinded until the end of your next turn after that. Creatures affected entirely by the red pool are stunned and blinded until the end of your next turn, and blinded until the end of your next turn after that. Creatures affected by the yellow pool are blinded until the end of your next turn.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 3d10 for each slot level above 1st, and divide the dice evenly between the three pools, highest to the blue and lowest to the yellow.

The second one scales better than the current color spray and the first one just for ease of use, though I don't think scaling better is inherently bad.

The huge AoE isn't necessarily party-unfriendly, either, if you've got sufficient mooks to soak up the "damage" before it gets to your allies' hp thresholds.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sleep is just easier to use and has huge synergies with AoE damaging effects. I have seen the Wizard hit the room with a Fireball, and then the Bard upcast a Sleep to 2nd level to drop 5 enemies. Color Spray would have only affected 2 enemies in this situation. What does it matter about the number of HP rolled here? not every party has two arcane casters. :smallwink:
In the notional 4 person party there's a rogue a fighter a cleric and a wizard.
Mind you, slipping a bard in for rogue fits just fine except that you lose out on some sweet sneak attack damage .... but the bard will talk some enemies out of fighting anyway. :smallcool:

I was in a five person party a couple of years ago; my sorcerer took color spray, and we had 4 people who could take advantage of it. Were it a 3 person party, I might have gone with sleep.

[heavyfuel]

In older editions, color spray had decreasing effect based on the power of the targets, with what we have in 5e being slightly different from but about on par with the effect it had on creatures of 5 HD or more. I've got a couple of ideas to re-introduce the gradations, and I've also pushed the AoE to a 50 ft. cone in both versions here (55 squares in a 50-ft cone, vs. 52 squares in a 20-ft. radius sphere). Admittedly, cones becomes more...interesting...when you let fliers drop them top-down on the map, but...hey.

These are both probably over-complicated, but I'm interested in ideas to refine them or better ideas for how to make color spray comparable to sleep. Though that may not be feasible.

A dazzling array of flashing, colored light springs from your hand. Roll 6d10; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can effect. Creatures in a 50-foot cone originating from you are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures and creatures that can't see).

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell is blinded. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on to the creature with the next lowest hit points. A creature's hit points must be equal to or less than the remaining total for that creature to be affected.

All creatures in the cone must make a Wisdom save. Those that are blinded and succeed on the save are blinded only until the end of your next turn. Those that are blinded and fail the save are knocked unconscious until the end of your next turn, and are blinded until the end of your turn after that. Those that are not blinded and fail the save are stunned until the end of your next turn. Those that are not blinded and succeed on the save are unaffected.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 2d10 for each slot level above 1st.


A dazzling array of flashing colors springs from your hand in a coruscating overlapping cone of blue, red, and yellow light. Roll 6d10, and separate the highest two dice into a "blue" pool, the lowest into a "yellow" pool, and the remaining two into a "red" pool. The total is how many hit points of creatures each color can effect. Creatures in a 50-foot cone originating from you are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures and creatures that can't see). All three cones overlap completely.

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell is blinded until the end of your next turn. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on to the creature with the next lowest hit points. A creature's hit points must be equal to or less than the remaining total in the pool for that creature to be affected, starting with the blue pool, then adding any excess hit points in it to the red pool once no further creatures can be entirely covered by the blue pool, and repeating the process to add extra red hit points to the yellow pool.

Creatures affected entirely by the blue pool are knocked unconscious until the end of your next turn, then blinded and stunned until the end of your next turn after that, and blinded until the end of your next turn after that. Creatures affected entirely by the red pool are stunned and blinded until the end of your next turn, and blinded until the end of your next turn after that. Creatures affected by the yellow pool are blinded until the end of your next turn.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 3d10 for each slot level above 1st, and divide the dice evenly between the three pools, highest to the blue and lowest to the yellow.

The second one scales better than the current color spray and the first one just for ease of use, though I don't think scaling better is inherently bad.

The huge AoE isn't necessarily party-unfriendly, either, if you've got sufficient mooks to soak up the "damage" before it gets to your allies' hp thresholds.

A 50ft cone AoE stun on a 1st level slot is super broken. I think that, if going the Wis save route, only blinded targets should have to save.

The three pools one might work better, but the language is odd, and it seems a bit too complicated.

[Segev]

A 50ft cone AoE stun on a 1st level slot is super broken. I think that, if going the Wis save route, only blinded targets should have to save.

The three pools one might work better, but the language is odd, and it seems a bit too complicated.

I don't necessarily disagree with either point, but I want to consider: is a 50 ft. cone of AoE stun worse than a 20 ft. radius sphere of AoE unconsciousness?

[heavyfuel]

I don't necessarily disagree with either point, but I want to consider: is a 50 ft. cone of AoE stun worse than a 20 ft. radius sphere of AoE unconsciousness?

When the 50 ft cone of AoE stun doesn't care about HP total, no. Not by a mile. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[Snails]

I was in a five person party a couple of years ago; my sorcerer took color spray, and we had 4 people who could take advantage of it. Were it a 3 person party, I might have gone with sleep.

I would not say Color Spray is a bad spell. Just it ends up a little bit harder to use to achieve similarly useful results to Sleep, and very hard to achieve better effects.

What you did here makes sense, and I like how your spell choice works well with party tactics. For your team, Color Spray may not be outright better or worse than Sleep, but it could work out to be more reliable; because if you guess wrong about how tough the enemies are or roll poorly for HP affected, Color Spray is much less likely to do nothing.

But typically your Color Spray is only affecting 2 enemies, because of the limited AoE. If you cast Sleep and affected just one instead, the one still up is likely to be dead in less than 6 seconds anyway, as it is a low HP target facing 4 martially competent PCs.

I would note that if reliability is a strong motivating factor, both Color Spray and Sleep face stiff competition from Magic Missile and Burning Hands, as these consistently do something.

[schm0]

To me, the obvious reason to choose color spray is short range efficacy:


In tight quarters where the party is being charged, such as a hallway encounter, color spray presents (generally speaking) a higher rate of success. There are likely to be more hit points with which one can incapacitate one's foes. At 1st level, it averages 9 hp more. For goblins, sleep would likely be better. But a trio of bugbears? Color spray might be more worthwhile.
It also does not come with a conditional rider, like sleep does. Undead are a significant part of so many adventures it makes sleep a less useful spell than people might consider. The number of creatures immune to being charmed is smaller, but still significant.


It's drawbacks have already been discussed, but I think color spray does have its uses. If looking to control the battlefield, I'd consider taking both.

[Zalabim]

Color spray uses the same mechanics to determine whether it affects its targets, and the spell's similarities end there. It has a different range, different expected number of targets, different effect, different duration, different limitations, and so it should be no surprise when I conclude it has a different purpose. It's like comparing Banishment and Blight because they both call for Saving Throws. Sleep is crowd control. Its purpose is removing enemy actions. With sleep, up to one ally can attack each victim with a large advantage only in melee. With sleep, each creature does nothing until some creature, friend or foe, can interact with it. With sleep, if you affect every enemy you have essentially ended the fight.

Color Spray is an assist spell. Its purpose is opening up creatures for the whole party to attack more safely. With color spray, every ally can attack any victim with some advantage. Each creature suffers the penalties of blindness on their next turn only. As long as the fight doesn't end before your next turn, affecting more creatures doesn't help more of your allies attacks.

Sleep is stronger at crowd control. Color Spray is stronger only at focusing attacks on a limited number of creatures in the middle of a fight. Sleep is for cleaning up mooks. Color Spray is for when you all target the leader. Sleep solves problems. Color Spray only creates opportunities. So yea, Sleep is better. Because Sleep is trying to do a tactically better thing to do. Just be aware that Sleep is also more conditional. For example, a level 8 Sleep could roll enough HP to affect a Demilich (at full HP) over 70% of the time, if it weren't immune. A level 6 Color Spray can blind that Demilich at similar rates and they aren't immune.

[Edit: what's a meta for?]

[Osuniev]

i'm more interested in Color Spray vs Blindness/Deafness. When is it better to target a number of HP ? When is it better to inflict a CON Save ?

Sleep is so much better than color spray because
1. Unconsciousness is SO more extreme than Blindness, being useful to maintain silence, neutralizing ennemies in a non-lethal way, inflicting autoatic criticals, etc...
2. 1 minute is so much better than 1 round, Color Spray is often a waste of a spell slot AND an action

[Temperjoke]

I think sleep is more useful for the fact that it can be used outside of combat as well as in. For example, if you're trying to avoid making too big of a ruckus, sneaking up and using sleep on a couple of guards from a distance is more advantageous. Both spells can be situational, but I think sleep has more situations to be useful than color spray.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would not say Color Spray is a bad spell. Just it ends up a little bit harder to use to achieve similarly useful results to Sleep, and very hard to achieve better effects.

What you did here makes sense, and I like how your spell choice works well with party tactics. Yeah, my objective was to give the others an edge for a round; trying to get the fight to snowball if they can drop a few mooks early on
Note: I took the Alert feat (vHuman). Gives +5 to initiative. My my ability to disable some of the enemy as 'the first move' was a little better than normal.
My other spell at first level was Mage Armor, and the one after that was Magic Missile. I relied on the others to do damage for the first few levels. That was part of the build concept.

Fire bolt and/or a light crossbow were my contributions to any ranged attacks.

@Temperjoke: great point on the out of combat aspect. :smallsmile:

[Segev]

Color spray uses the same mechanics to determine whether it affects its targets, and the spell's similarities end there. It has a different range, different expected number of targets, different effect, different duration, different limitations, and so it should be no surprise when I conclude it has a different purpose. It's like comparing Banishment and Blight because they both call for Saving Throws. Sleep is crowd control. Its purpose is removing enemy actions. With sleep, up to one ally can attack each victim with a large advantage only in melee. With sleep, each creature does nothing until some creature, friend or foe, can interact with it. With sleep, if you affect every enemy you have essentially ended the fight.

Color Spray is an assist spell. Its purpose is opening up creatures for the whole party to attack more safely. With color spray, every ally can attack any victim with some advantage. Each creature suffers the penalties of blindness on their next turn only. As long as the fight doesn't end before your next turn, affecting more creatures doesn't help more of your allies attacks.

Sleep is stronger at crowd control. Color Spray is stronger only at focusing attacks on a limited number of creatures in the middle of a fight. Sleep is for cleaning up mooks. Color Spray is for when you all target the leader. Sleep solves problems. Color Spray only creates opportunities. So yea, Sleep is better. Because Sleep is trying to do a tactically better thing to do. Just be aware that Sleep is also more conditional. For example, a level 8 Sleep could roll enough HP to affect a Demilich (at full HP) over 70% of the time, if it weren't immune. A level 6 Color Spray can blind that Demilich at similar rates and they aren't immune.

[Edit: what's a meta for?]

While I appreciate your analysis, here, and understand your thesis (that they're trying to do different things, based on their differences), I actually have to point to what they do and say, "No, they're not."

One inflicts Unconsciousness, the other Blindness. Ignoring all other differences, these two effects are both trying to reduce the effective contribution of enemies to a fight / render enemies more vulnerable to hits. Fundamentally, they're both crowd control.

You have an interesting point that the smaller AoE means you can be pickier about who you target. Sleep and color spray both target the lowest-hp creatures first, so if you want to focus down a tougher foe, being able to select only him is an advantage. However, if you want to focus down that tougher foe, you still prefer to target him from a distance, and you get the same advantage in terms of actually harming him if he's knocked prone first.

The first level spell for controlling singular opponents is Tasha's hideous laughter. It permits a save rather than asking how many hp they have, but this is actually a relatively good thing for single-targeting, since you're not using it for a finisher at that point.

And color spray remains both very short duration and very short range.

So, overall, I appreciate your analysis, but it doesn't really shift any of the points as I perceive them regarding color spray, sadly. It doesn't do the job it sets out to do as well as sleep or Tasha's hideous laughter. Shockingly few things are immune to hideous laughter, and so the times you'd find the lesser crowd control of color spray better than either of those other two spells are extremely circumstantial. It just doesn't seem worth taking if either of the other two are options. MAYBE if you already have both and have a spare spell known, but that's going to be super rare.

[Snails]

Pondering KorvinStarmast's tactics a bit more, I think there is a solid reason to choose Color Spray over Sleep: reliability.

IMNSHO it is not actually true that the HP difference means Color Spray will affect more enemies. It is significantly harder get more than 1 or 2 enemies in the AoE in typical combats, and the naive count of enemies affected over many combats is likely to sway towards the favor of Sleep. But, as KorvinStarmast points out, getting something tactically significant to happen early in the combat is of great value, and that higher HP limit makes opening up on round 1 more practical, while you might be forced to wait until a later round with Sleep.

There are reasons Sleep is so popular for T1, but Sorcerer's typically swap it out for T2. I think that Color Spray has something offer in terms of reliability and longevity. Even in T2, you will meet mooks that are ~20-30 HP and are a good target for an opening Color Spray. That is pretty decent tactical value from a level 1 slot.

[heavyfuel]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the less I think Color Spray is a bad spell, and just think that Sleep is the overpowered one (in Tier 1 at least).

I think reducing the range from 90ft to 30ft would make Sleep a slightly weaker spell and require good positioning from the caster.

Even with the larger area (which can be a pro or a con, as it's been pointed out) you now also have to get in close with the enemy. Not as close as with CS, but close enough that most enemies can attack you after moving.

[MrStabby]

Color spray is almost OK.

So sleep is better, sure. It clears up low level fights. Color spray kind of has its place, its own niche. The problem is that its niche is too narrow and you are likely to reach the level where it becomes ineffective before you come accross that specific set of circumstances where it is better than sleep.

The place I see it is as an anti mage weapon. Casters that need to see to target spells, have low HP and will do down pretty quickly (especially given that a party member has been able to get this close anyway) with advantage against them so the time limit won't be quite so critical. Cutting through other spell effects like THP and the like is nice oo.


I think that they could have safely swapped d10 for 2d6 and it would have been a more competative but not overwhelming spell.

I could see this being pretty good vs low level PCs, even mid level PCs. Circumventing saves and all the protections a party of PCs can put up it can be a fun change from the usual things thrown at them. As it only lasts a round it might be a fun "fair" way of impacting a fight without really taking anyone out of combat for multiple turns.

[JellyPooga]

I've found the discussion here quite interesting as I'd previously dismissed Colour Spray as the undoubtedly weaker cousin of Sleep. I appreciate the doubt throwing new light on the subject!

With the point about using CS as an anti-mage spell, I imagine that would make it a good choice on, for instance, an Eldritch Knight or even better, an Arcane Trickster, who doesn't need to have the Intelligence investment to make it effective and also doesn't mind being up close an personal with the enemy. The AT, with Cunning Action also has the luxury of having the necessary mobility to deploy it in the most effective position.

[MrStabby]

I've found the discussion here quite interesting as I'd previously dismissed Colour Spray as the undoubtedly weaker cousin of Sleep. I appreciate the doubt throwing new light on the subject!

With the point about using CS as an anti-mage spell, I imagine that would make it a good choice on, for instance, an Eldritch Knight or even better, an Arcane Trickster, who doesn't need to have the Intelligence investment to make it effective and also doesn't mind being up close an personal with the enemy. The AT, with Cunning Action also has the luxury of having the necessary mobility to deploy it in the most effective position.

Yes but...

EK and AT get it at the point it begins to become less useful. At higher levels both get mechanics to grant disadvantage on saves.

Now if there were a feat like elemental affinity that boosted spells like this or some other investment to make them good and scale to higher levels better then I could see it working. Taking down magic resistant and legendary saving enemies is nice...

[JellyPooga]

Yes but...

EK and AT get it at the point it begins to become less useful. At higher levels both get mechanics to grant disadvantage on saves.

Now if there were a feat like elemental affinity that boosted spells like this or some other investment to make them good and scale to higher levels better then I could see it working. Taking down magic resistant and legendary saving enemies is nice...

Granted.

It's worth considering that if deployed as a single target anti-mage spell, that average of 33hp is still going to be very effective at level 3 when an AT/EK can first obtain it (noting that a level 5 Wizard with Con:14 has a generous average of 30hp and a similar Warlock or Cleric is still only looking at 38hp...well within the bounds of CS's 6d10). I imagine it will stay relevent used as such for at least a few levels before wanting to switch it out for something else. They'll both be looking at switching out before either obtains their respective features imposing disadvantage on saves, but that still leaves a 6 level period in which it might still be useful (depending on the frequency of valid targets encountered, of course).

[heavyfuel]

Yes but...

EK and AT get it at the point it begins to become less useful.

EKs can only get it at level 8. Completely useless by then, plus, much better spells to pick from.

[Segev]

I think a key point is that color spray got heavily nerfed in its effect and duration in this edition.

Maybe its upcasting should add effects as well as dice?

At higher levels. When cast from a 2nd level spell slot, roll two sets of the dice. The larger pool affects creatures as listed above. The smaller pool uses the same progression (and hits the same creatures), but affected creatures are stunned until the start of your next turn, and blinded for an additional round. When cast from a 3rd level spell slot, roll three sets of dice. The first two work as if cast from a second level spell slot. The smallest pool of hp applies in the same order, but affected creatures are knocked unconscious until the start of your next turn as well as being stunned and blinded. The stunning and blinding effects on the ones knocked unconscious extend for an additional round over those merely stunned and blinded. Add 2d10 to each die pool rolled for every level above 1st of the spell slot. You may increase the range of the cone by up to five feet per level of the spell slot above 1st, as well.



I still dislike that this makes it all but flat inferior to sleep in nearly all use cases, though, when cast from a level 1 spell slot.

[MrStabby]

I think a key point is that color spray got heavily nerfed in its effect and duration in this edition.

Maybe its upcasting should add effects as well as dice?

At higher levels. When cast from a 2nd level spell slot, roll two sets of the dice. The larger pool affects creatures as listed above. The smaller pool uses the same progression (and hits the same creatures), but affected creatures are stunned until the start of your next turn, and blinded for an additional round. When cast from a 3rd level spell slot, roll three sets of dice. The first two work as if cast from a second level spell slot. The smallest pool of hp applies in the same order, but affected creatures are knocked unconscious until the start of your next turn as well as being stunned and blinded. The stunning and blinding effects on the ones knocked unconscious extend for an additional round over those merely stunned and blinded. Add 2d10 to each die pool rolled for every level above 1st of the spell slot. You may increase the range of the cone by up to five feet per level of the spell slot above 1st, as well.



I still dislike that this makes it all but flat inferior to sleep in nearly all use cases, though, when cast from a level 1 spell slot.

Blinded for 1 turn with no save seems fair. Stunned with no save seems pretty brutal.

I wonder if you could work in a touch of the prismatic spray? Apply roll for color, save then a touch of damage/other effect and then throw down the blinded effect as per HP. If it were d6 for both damage AND total HP worth of creatures blinded then you would be lowering their HP with the damage to get more effect and then using this to apply a control condition. Even after the round ends the damage done will persist so you still get a bit of a lasting effect.

[heavyfuel]

I think CS should also be compared with another spell other than Sleep.

A spell that's also 1st level and also affects a 15ft cone. Burning Hands.

Okay, yeah, they serve completely different purposes. But, the biggest advantage CS has over Sleep is that very few creatures are immune to it, and hey, turns out that of all those creatures immune to sleep they all can be burned to death!

So lets say you're fighting a handful of skeletons, and you have Sleep, CS, and BH prepared.

Sleep is useless against the Undead, so you're left with either Blinding them for 1 round, or damaging them. Which is better?

Assuming you can get 3 skeletons on the cone, CS is probably blinding 2 skeletons (maybe 1 or 3) for 1 round, but BH is probbly leaving all 3 skeletons on the brink of death (average 7.75 damage after accounting for Dex saves leaves skellies with ~5HP each).

I feel like BH is better than CS against enemies immune to Sleep.

[Segev]

Maybe color spray needs an overhaul. Let's take some inspiration from dragon's breath:

Color Spray
1st-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (15-foot cone)
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of powder or sand that is colored red, yellow, and blue)
Duration: 1 minute
When you cast this spell, and as an action on each of your turns for the duration, you can release a dazzling array of flashing, colored light springs from your hand. Roll 6d10; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can effect. Creatures in a 15-foot cone originating from you are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures and creatures that can't see).

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell is blinded until the end of your next turn, and must make a Wisdom saving throw or be Stunned for the same duration. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on to the creature with the next lowest hit points. A creature's hit points must be equal to or less than the remaining total for that creature to be affected. Creatures which were Stunned at the start of your turn count as having 0 hp for purposes of determining if they are affected by this spell.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 2d10 for each slot level above 1st.



This makes it a slot-efficient spell, and also boosts it to include a save-or-stun. Only those who are affected by the hp limit even have to make a save, but if they were stunned before, they're easier to lock down as long as you keep using your action to include them in the spray. Interesting interaction with bonus action spells: because the action to use it on subsequent rounds isn't casting a spell, you can misty step or use a Quickened leveled spell in conjunction with it.

[JellyPooga]

EKs can only get it at level 8. Completely useless by then, plus, much better spells to pick from.

EK can get it as their "off-list" pick at level 3 and don't get Eldritch Strike until 10th. Plenty of valid targets betwen those levels. Arcane Trickster gets Magical Ambush at 9th, giving him a slightly smaller window of use, but Colour Spray has definitely lost its efficiency by that point in either case.

[Snails]

Color spray is almost OK.

So sleep is better, sure. It clears up low level fights. Color spray kind of has its place, its own niche. The problem is that its niche is too narrow and you are likely to reach the level where it becomes ineffective before you come accross that specific set of circumstances where it is better than sleep.

Keep in mind that Color Spray actually scales decently well, because it boosts by 2d10 per spell level. So at T2, ~33 HP affected might not be good enough, but perhaps a 2nd level slot for ~44 HP is.

Now I am wondering, wouldn't Color Spray work pretty well for a blaster sorcerer who wants a reliable No Save option for his 1st/2nd level slots? If you are already planning to take Empower for other reasons, using 1 sorcery point to re-roll d10s can yield a big swing for 6d10 or 8d10.

Empower happens after the initial roll, so getting a precise average is a little complicated. But I believe if the Sorcerer is willing to burn 1 point for Empower, a 1st level slot is going to average ~41 HP affected and 2nd level slot ~55 HP.

[heavyfuel]

EK can get it as their "off-list" pick at level 3 and don't get Eldritch Strike until 10th. Plenty of valid targets betwen those levels. Arcane Trickster gets Magical Ambush at 9th, giving him a slightly smaller window of use, but Colour Spray has definitely lost its efficiency by that point in either case.

Oh, you're right. You get 3 spells at 3rd level and only 2 need to be evocation/abjuration. Completely missed that.


Maybe color spray needs an overhaul. Let's take some inspiration from dragon's breath:

Color Spray
1st-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (15-foot cone)
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of powder or sand that is colored red, yellow, and blue)
Duration: 1 minute
When you cast this spell, and as an action on each of your turns for the duration, you can release a dazzling array of flashing, colored light springs from your hand. Roll 6d10; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can effect. Creatures in a 15-foot cone originating from you are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures and creatures that can't see).

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell is blinded until the end of your next turn, and must make a Wisdom saving throw or be Stunned for the same duration. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on to the creature with the next lowest hit points. A creature's hit points must be equal to or less than the remaining total for that creature to be affected. Creatures which were Stunned at the start of your turn count as having 0 hp for purposes of determining if they are affected by this spell.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 2d10 for each slot level above 1st.



This makes it a slot-efficient spell, and also boosts it to include a save-or-stun. Only those who are affected by the hp limit even have to make a save, but if they were stunned before, they're easier to lock down as long as you keep using your action to include them in the spray. Interesting interaction with bonus action spells: because the action to use it on subsequent rounds isn't casting a spell, you can misty step or use a Quickened leveled spell in conjunction with it.

AoE no-save Blindness AND save vs Stun, and then these creatures are auto-affected again next round. For a 1st level spell with no Concentration?

Seriously, why are you trying to make CS a completely broken spell?

I mean, even if you remove the Stun and the "considered to have 0HP" part, it's still an excellent CC spell. At this point it's probably better than Sleep, since sleep can be broken, and blinding every round cannot.

[Valmark]

Now I am wondering, wouldn't Color Spray work pretty well for a blaster sorcerer who wants a reliable No Save option for his 1st/2nd level slots? If you are already planning to take Empower for other reasons, using 1 sorcery point to re-roll d10s can yield a big swing for 6d10 or 8d10.

Unfortunately Empowered only works on damage rolls, which Color Spray doesn't use.

[stoutstien]

I am annoyed that artificer didn't get CS on their list. Seems fit for theme and the principal of avoiding direct damage spells.
They would be able to leverage it pretty well I think or I would try at least.

[Segev]

AoE no-save Blindness AND save vs Stun, and then these creatures are auto-affected again next round. For a 1st level spell with no Concentration?

Seriously, why are you trying to make CS a completely broken spell?

I mean, even if you remove the Stun and the "considered to have 0HP" part, it's still an excellent CC spell. At this point it's probably better than Sleep, since sleep can be broken, and blinding every round cannot.

Adding Concentration is probably a good idea. "No-save Blindness" is misleading, here; the targets still have to fall under the number of hp allotted by the spell. And the save vs. stun only applies to those who already fell under that; others are entirely unaffected. The "count as 0 hp if they were stunned at the start of your turn" thing does make locking down easier, though, yes, forcing the save round to round.

Not only is the Blindness not really without means of resistance, but it's not guaranteed round-to-round: you both have to roll high enough on the "damage" each round to keep affecting all the targets, and the targets have to stay in range. Sure, you can follow them if you want, but they don't have to stick together, and the cone isn't really that big. Now, if you stun them, that changes things, and this becomes a strong lock-down, though you do still have to spend your action every round doing it. Knock the caster away, break his Concentration (like I said, that's a wise addition to make here), or otherwise prevent him from continuing to spend his action on it, and the creatures recover.

Probably change it to a bonus action casting time and always taking an action to use the spray, more like dragon's breath, too, rather than an action casting time and letting the first spray be part of the casting action. A tiny bit more expensive round 1 of its duration.

[heavyfuel]

Adding Concentration is probably a good idea. "No-save Blindness" is misleading, here; the targets still have to fall under the number of hp allotted by the spell. And the save vs. stun only applies to those who already fell under that; others are entirely unaffected. The "count as 0 hp if they were stunned at the start of your turn" thing does make locking down easier, though, yes, forcing the save round to round.


I wouldn't say it's misleading, at least in Tier 1. An average of 33 HP per use of CS means you can keep any Tier 1 enemy blinded for the duration of the spell. The cone is easy enough to aim that you can exclude creatures you don't want to hit from it. The spell does get weaker as you level, but it's extremely strong early on. Probably more so than Sleep, which has plenty of drawbacks as mentioned in this thread.

[Segev]

I wouldn't say it's misleading, at least in Tier 1. An average of 33 HP per use of CS means you can keep any Tier 1 enemy blinded for the duration of the spell. The cone is easy enough to aim that you can exclude creatures you don't want to hit from it. The spell does get weaker as you level, but it's extremely strong early on. Probably more so than Sleep, which has plenty of drawbacks as mentioned in this thread.

If you're trying to lock down a creature that you're willing to allow a save each round to escape the lockdown, Tasha's hideous laughter doesn't require your action every round.

[heavyfuel]

If you're trying to lock down a creature that you're willing to allow a save each round to escape the lockdown, Tasha's hideous laughter doesn't require your action every round.

True, but THL has multiple saves once you start focus-firing the creature, and it has an initial save, and it has bigger problem than Sleep in that most Constructs, Undead, Beasts, Monstrosities, Plant, Oozes, and some Aberrations you find at that level are going to be immune to it. That's a lot of creatures immune to THL.

[Segev]

True, but THL has multiple saves once you start focus-firing the creature, and it has an initial save, and it has bigger problem than Sleep in that most Constructs, Undead, Beasts, Monstrosities, Plant, Oozes, and some Aberrations you find at that level are going to be immune to it. That's a lot of creatures immune to THL.

The version of color spray under discussion has a hit point threshold followed by a save initially, and takes an action to force a new save each round. If the action isn't spent or the save id made, it ends. Stricktly worse than Tasha's, which takes no action after the first round and only ends on a save.

[heavyfuel]

The version of color spray under discussion has a hit point threshold followed by a save initially, and takes an action to force a new save each round. If the action isn't spent or the save id made, it ends. Stricktly worse than Tasha's, which takes no action after the first round and only ends on a save.

You can see that I'm ignoring the save aspect of this version of CS because I think even if it was just blindness, no save vs Stun, it would still be a strong pick for the early levels.

It's still unclear if you intend to have Concentration be a part of the spell.

Honestly, I think that either adding Wis save vs stun for blinded creatures or making the spell usable in multiple rounds makes it decently balanced. Maybe combining with the suggestion upthread about turning the d10s into 2d6s so that it's slightly stronger (average 42 HP instead of average 33 HP, probably means you're getting one extra creature per use)

[MrStabby]

Keep in mind that Color Spray actually scales decently well, because it boosts by 2d10 per spell level. So at T2, ~33 HP affected might not be good enough, but perhaps a 2nd level slot for ~44 HP is.

Now I am wondering, wouldn't Color Spray work pretty well for a blaster sorcerer who wants a reliable No Save option for his 1st/2nd level slots? If you are already planning to take Empower for other reasons, using 1 sorcery point to re-roll d10s can yield a big swing for 6d10 or 8d10.

Empower happens after the initial roll, so getting a precise average is a little complicated. But I believe if the Sorcerer is willing to burn 1 point for Empower, a 1st level slot is going to average ~41 HP affected and 2nd level slot ~55 HP.

Yeah, 2d10 is good - kind of... I little bit. When we are talkng about upcasting it we are no longer talking about a low level spell slot - we are talking about slots that can be used for counterspell or fear or banishment or wall of force... and we are doing this to inconvenience some enemies for a turn. Not to shut them down entirely. Not to take them out of the fight long term... just a one round inconvenience for a higher level slot. For the spellcasting opportunities foregone to do this we would think of the number of enemies needed to be affected to make it a fair trade. We think of the corresponding level of enemies and their typical hitpoints and an extra 11 hp per spell level doesn't seem like a lot - not for what you get back.

A 2nd level slot for 44 HP... well I guess if you are level 4 and facing off against spined devils then its two of them... unless you roll 43 rather than 44. Can you reliably get more than 2 enemies in a 15ft cone anyway?

[Segev]

You can see that I'm ignoring the save aspect of this version of CS because I think even if it was just blindness, no save vs Stun, it would still be a strong pick for the early levels.I feel like we're talking past each other, because you're not responding to my attempts to respond to your points. Or, at least, I don't see this as addressing them. You said that Tasha's is okay because it offers a save every round. I pointed out that the version I wrote up here not only offers a save every round, but automatically releases its victims if the caster doesn't spend an action (and stay in position) to use it on them again.


It's still unclear if you intend to have Concentration be a part of the spell.I agreed it was probably a good idea. I'll do a rewrite below, here.


Honestly, I think that either adding Wis save vs stun for blinded creatures or making the spell usable in multiple rounds makes it decently balanced. Maybe combining with the suggestion upthread about turning the d10s into 2d6s so that it's slightly stronger (average 42 HP instead of average 33 HP, probably means you're getting one extra creature per use)...maybe I'm really misreading you, because here it sounds like you're going from saying I made it overpowered to agreeing with the design as I wrote it.

I'll rewrite it with the suggestions I agree with from above; maybe we'll be more on the same page with a clean read of it.

Color Spray
1st-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self (15-foot cone)
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of powder or sand that is colored red, yellow, and blue)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
For the duration of this spell, you can release a dazzling array of flashing, colored light springs from your hand as an action on your turn. Roll 6d10; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can effect. Creatures in a 15-foot cone originating from you are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures and creatures that can't see).

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell is blinded until the end of your next turn. Creatures blinded in this fashion must make a Wisdom saving throw or be Stunned until the start of your next turn, as well. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on to the creature with the next lowest hit points. A creature's hit points must be equal to or less than the remaining total for that creature to be affected. A creature who is stunned at the start of your turn (including those who cease to be stunned at the start of your turn) counts as having 0 hp for the purposes of this spell.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 2d10 for each slot level above 1st.


The way I see this being used, the caster spends a bonus action casting, then uses his action to release the color spray. Some creatures are blinded, some of those are stunned. If one or more creatures are stunned, the caster reuses the color spray as his action, guaranteeing that the ones that failed last round's Wisdom save are again blinded, and forcing them to save again vs. being Stunned. The ones who save likely move away; being blind doesn't keep you from moving. Scattering will reduce the number of repeat targets. The caster may move and re-use the action, or he may stay and keep pinning those that keep failing the save.

Either way, it's taking up the caster's actions every round to possibly debuff/lock down a handful of foes. Decent, but not as good as sleep in general, while still being good enough (especially with the re-use ability, if you flub the first round) to compete for the spell-known slot. Competes with Tasha's as well because it can force a new save even if one of the previous ones is made, and it can catch a handful of creatures rather than just one. The hefty action requirements to keep it going make it not as fire-and-forget, and the close range means it's riskier, though.

[MrStabby]

I feel like we're talking past each other, because you're not responding to my attempts to respond to your points. Or, at least, I don't see this as addressing them. You said that Tasha's is okay because it offers a save every round. I pointed out that the version I wrote up here not only offers a save every round, but automatically releases its victims if the caster doesn't spend an action (and stay in position) to use it on them again.

I agreed it was probably a good idea. I'll do a rewrite below, here.

...maybe I'm really misreading you, because here it sounds like you're going from saying I made it overpowered to agreeing with the design as I wrote it.

I'll rewrite it with the suggestions I agree with from above; maybe we'll be more on the same page with a clean read of it.

Color Spray
1st-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self (15-foot cone)
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of powder or sand that is colored red, yellow, and blue)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
For the duration of this spell, you can release a dazzling array of flashing, colored light springs from your hand as an action on your turn. Roll 6d10; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can effect. Creatures in a 15-foot cone originating from you are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures and creatures that can't see).

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell is blinded until the end of your next turn. Creatures blinded in this fashion must make a Wisdom saving throw or be Stunned until the start of your next turn, as well. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on to the creature with the next lowest hit points. A creature's hit points must be equal to or less than the remaining total for that creature to be affected. A creature who is stunned at the start of your turn (including those who cease to be stunned at the start of your turn) counts as having 0 hp for the purposes of this spell.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 2d10 for each slot level above 1st.


The way I see this being used, the caster spends a bonus action casting, then uses his action to release the color spray. Some creatures are blinded, some of those are stunned. If one or more creatures are stunned, the caster reuses the color spray as his action, guaranteeing that the ones that failed last round's Wisdom save are again blinded, and forcing them to save again vs. being Stunned. The ones who save likely move away; being blind doesn't keep you from moving. Scattering will reduce the number of repeat targets. The caster may move and re-use the action, or he may stay and keep pinning those that keep failing the save.

Either way, it's taking up the caster's actions every round to possibly debuff/lock down a handful of foes. Decent, but not as good as sleep in general, while still being good enough (especially with the re-use ability, if you flub the first round) to compete for the spell-known slot. Competes with Tasha's as well because it can force a new save even if one of the previous ones is made, and it can catch a handful of creatures rather than just one. The hefty action requirements to keep it going make it not as fire-and-forget, and the close range means it's riskier, though.

One potentially serious downside to this is its complexity. Keeping track of a) who is blinded b) who is stunned c) who remains in the area of effect of the spell d) calculating HP for enemies the players dont know the HP for, e) recalculating who is effected depending on damage dealt/people moving out of the area and f) possibly rerolling the HP dice to determine power each turn (depending how writen).

Add all of it together and it will bog things down at the table. Heck, add only about half of this together and it is still very, very time consuming.

[Segev]

One potentially serious downside to this is its complexity. Keeping track of a) who is blinded b) who is stunned c) who remains in the area of effect of the spell d) calculating HP for enemies the players dont know the HP for, e) recalculating who is effected depending on damage dealt/people moving out of the area and f) possibly rerolling the HP dice to determine power each turn (depending how writen).

Add all of it together and it will bog things down at the table. Heck, add only about half of this together and it is still very, very time consuming.

How is (a) not a problem for color spray as written, nor for sleep?

(c) is no harder than the caster trying to figure out where to put a new casting of the existing color spray spell-as-written would be. The re-use is not going to care what the AoE was last round. It's a new cone in a new AoE that the caster may or may not place in the same place as before.

As an example, if the caster uses it to blind (but fail to stun) an orc trying to bear down on him, and then moves away, the orc could blindly stumble after him, and the caster could use it again on him to try to keep him from being able to see to attack him.

(d) is, again, an issue for sleep and color spray-as-written.

(b) is the only one that seems to me to be a new issue, and it does add some complexity, since it's one more condition to track individually. But I am interested to hear if you think I'm underestimating things with my analysis of (a), (c), and (d), and a more detailed explanation of why.

[MrStabby]

How is (a) not a problem for color spray as written, nor for sleep?

(c) is no harder than the caster trying to figure out where to put a new casting of the existing color spray spell-as-written would be. The re-use is not going to care what the AoE was last round. It's a new cone in a new AoE that the caster may or may not place in the same place as before.

As an example, if the caster uses it to blind (but fail to stun) an orc trying to bear down on him, and then moves away, the orc could blindly stumble after him, and the caster could use it again on him to try to keep him from being able to see to attack him.

(d) is, again, an issue for sleep and color spray-as-written.

(b) is the only one that seems to me to be a new issue, and it does add some complexity, since it's one more condition to track individually. But I am interested to hear if you think I'm underestimating things with my analysis of (a), (c), and (d), and a more detailed explanation of why.

The issue isn't one thing, but the cumulative effect of lots of things. Rolling a bunch of D10 to determine an effect isn't hard - its no harder than fireball. And save or a condition is applied - no harder than synaptic static. Two different conditions seems to be the big one. As for the re-use, if it is just being cast again it is a lot simpler... but is still a relatively complex spell round after round.

[Segev]

The issue isn't one thing, but the cumulative effect of lots of things. Rolling a bunch of D10 to determine an effect isn't hard - its no harder than fireball. And save or a condition is applied - no harder than synaptic static. Two different conditions seems to be the big one. As for the re-use, if it is just being cast again it is a lot simpler... but is still a relatively complex spell round after round.

"It's just being cast again" is what I was going for, just without needing additional spell slots.

I do understand the "roll damage and save" thing being a little complicated, though fireball and burning hands call for both, as well, as does dragon's breath done every round. Combining it on top of deciding conditions is a little more complicated, I admit. Is it so much more complicated as to make it hard to see what the spell is doing?



What I've been going for throughout all these experimental redesigns has been layering more severe effects onto those more afflicted by the spell.

[MrStabby]

"It's just being cast again" is what I was going for, just without needing additional spell slots.

I do understand the "roll damage and save" thing being a little complicated, though fireball and burning hands call for both, as well, as does dragon's breath done every round. Combining it on top of deciding conditions is a little more complicated, I admit. Is it so much more complicated as to make it hard to see what the spell is doing?



What I've been going for throughout all these experimental redesigns has been layering more severe effects onto those more afflicted by the spell.

I like that aspect of it - but at a table you want something that is being understood by everyone there, which means the limiting factor is the newest/least experienced person playing.

Some spells complexity matters less for - polymorph for an example. If an experienced player plays polymorph the new player doesn't need to understand the complexity of what they could have done, jus broadly what they did do: "now they are a giant ape, OK. Cool". With this it will determine where each player wants their PC to stand, who they will get advantage against, what risks they can ignore for their next turn...

[heavyfuel]

I feel like we're talking past each other, because you're not responding to my attempts to respond to your points. Or, at least, I don't see this as addressing them.

I feel this is in fact happening. I apologize if I misread you at some point, it's been a busy week.


You said that Tasha's is okay because it offers a save every round. I pointed out that the version I wrote up here not only offers a save every round, but automatically releases its victims if the caster doesn't spend an action (and stay in position) to use it on them again.

I'll rewrite it with the suggestions I agree with from above; maybe we'll be more on the same page with a clean read of it.

Color Spray
1st-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self (15-foot cone)
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of powder or sand that is colored red, yellow, and blue)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
For the duration of this spell, you can release a dazzling array of flashing, colored light springs from your hand as an action on your turn. Roll 6d10; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can effect. Creatures in a 15-foot cone originating from you are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures and creatures that can't see).

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell is blinded until the end of your next turn. Creatures blinded in this fashion must make a Wisdom saving throw or be Stunned until the start of your next turn, as well. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on to the creature with the next lowest hit points. A creature's hit points must be equal to or less than the remaining total for that creature to be affected. A creature who is stunned at the start of your turn (including those who cease to be stunned at the start of your turn) counts as having 0 hp for the purposes of this spell.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 2d10 for each slot level above 1st.


The way I see this being used, the caster spends a bonus action casting, then uses his action to release the color spray. Some creatures are blinded, some of those are stunned. If one or more creatures are stunned, the caster reuses the color spray as his action, guaranteeing that the ones that failed last round's Wisdom save are again blinded, and forcing them to save again vs. being Stunned. The ones who save likely move away; being blind doesn't keep you from moving. Scattering will reduce the number of repeat targets. The caster may move and re-use the action, or he may stay and keep pinning those that keep failing the save.

Either way, it's taking up the caster's actions every round to possibly debuff/lock down a handful of foes. Decent, but not as good as sleep in general, while still being good enough (especially with the re-use ability, if you flub the first round) to compete for the spell-known slot. Competes with Tasha's as well because it can force a new save even if one of the previous ones is made, and it can catch a handful of creatures rather than just one. The hefty action requirements to keep it going make it not as fire-and-forget, and the close range means it's riskier, though.

My issue with your current version of CS is not that it offers a Wis save vs Stun every round. My issues are that it doesn't offer a save vs Blindness every round, and - something I noticed just now - that you can you affect more creatures as the combat progresses.

I think my point is better illustrated with a hypothetical scenario.

The scenario: Fighter 2 + Wizard 2 vs Bugbear + Goblin (both adjacent to one another). Party starts 40ft away from monsters.

Round 1:

- Wizard uses BA to cast CS, moves up to the enemies, and uses action to shoot CS. He could hit both targets, but knows it's unlikely to affect both, so he aims in a way that doesn't hit the Goblin. Wizard rolls 30 on the 6d10. Because the BB has 27 HP, it's now Blinded. Additionally, it has to save vs stun. It fails the save.
- Fighter dashes close to the BB
- BB is stunned
- Goblin attacks Fighter and misses

Round 2:

- Wizard moves slightly and shoots CS again. This time, he includes the Goblin in the AoE. Wizard rolls a 20 on the 6d10. However, because the BB is considered to have 0 HP, both creatures are blinded with no save. Both have to save vs Stun and both fail.
- Fighter hits BB for 10 damage
- Both monsters are stunned.

Round 3:

- Wizard shoots CS again, both monsters are automatically blinded - no save - and must save vs Stun. Both monsters make the save.
- Fighter hits blinded BB for another 10 damage
- Both monsters, blinded, miss the Fighter.

Round 4:

- Wizard shoots CS again. Unless he rolls unbeliavably poorly, both monsters (total HP = 14) are now Blinded - no save - and must save vs Stun. Both monsters make the save.
- Fighter finishes blinded BB
- Goblin finally manages to hit the Fighter

Round 5:

- Wizard shoots CS yet again. Goblin is auto blinded - no save - and must save vs Stun. Goblin fails save.
- Fighter finishes Goblin.

Combat over.



Unless I have misuderstand you (which I grant is a possibility), I think the scenario clearly illustrates my issues: Even when they make the save vs Stun, it doesn't matter, because you're going to Blind them again and again and again. Plus, on round 2 - because of the "considered to be at 0 HP" clause, the Goblin is now also Blinded, so the spell becomes "stronger" as rounds pass.

A similar scenario with Hideous Laughter instead of CS means that once the Bugbear makes any save, the spell is over, period. No more continuous effect even if they do make the save.

A similar scenario with Sleep instead (the really strong spell we're comparing CS against) means the Wizard either only puts the Goblin to sleep, and the party has to fight a Bugbear completely unaffected, or it means the Wizard has to wait for the BB to be damaged to cast sleep, which means 2 rounds with no Crowd Control.

So, my point is, if you're going to allow multiple "shots" of Color Spray, it needs to be toned down. If you were to make it a single "shot" (as the PHB) I think a save vs stun is perfectly fine.

Allowing a save AND requiring an action every round isn't that big of a drawback when you're forcing two Conditions and only one cares about the save.

[Segev]

I feel this is in fact happening. I apologize if I misread you at some point, it's been a busy week.



My issue with your current version of CS is not that it offers a Wis save vs Stun every round. My issues are that it doesn't offer a save vs Blindness every round, and - something I noticed just now - that you can you affect more creatures as the combat progresses.

I think my point is better illustrated with a hypothetical scenario.

The scenario: Fighter 2 + Wizard 2 vs Bugbear + Goblin (both adjacent to one another). Party starts 40ft away from monsters.

Round 1:

- Wizard uses BA to cast CS, moves up to the enemies, and uses action to shoot CS. He could hit both targets, but knows it's unlikely to affect both, so he aims in a way that doesn't hit the Goblin. Wizard rolls 30 on the 6d10. Because the BB has 27 HP, it's now Blinded. Additionally, it has to save vs stun. It fails the save.
- Fighter dashes close to the BB
- BB is stunned
- Goblin attacks Fighter and misses

Round 2:

- Wizard moves slightly and shoots CS again. This time, he includes the Goblin in the AoE. Wizard rolls a 20 on the 6d10. However, because the BB is considered to have 0 HP, both creatures are blinded with no save. Both have to save vs Stun and both fail.
- Fighter hits BB for 10 damage
- Both monsters are stunned.

Round 3:

- Wizard shoots CS again, both monsters are automatically blinded - no save - and must save vs Stun. Both monsters make the save.
- Fighter hits blinded BB for another 10 damage
- Both monsters, blinded, miss the Fighter.

Round 4:

- Wizard shoots CS again. Unless he rolls unbeliavably poorly, both monsters (total HP = 14) are now Blinded - no save - and must save vs Stun. Both monsters make the save.
- Fighter finishes blinded BB
- Goblin finally manages to hit the Fighter

Round 5:

- Wizard shoots CS yet again. Goblin is auto blinded - no save - and must save vs Stun. Goblin fails save.
- Fighter finishes Goblin.

Combat over.



Unless I have misuderstand you (which I grant is a possibility), I think the scenario clearly illustrates my issues: Even when they make the save vs Stun, it doesn't matter, because you're going to Blind them again and again and again. Plus, on round 2 - because of the "considered to be at 0 HP" clause, the Goblin is now also Blinded, so the spell becomes "stronger" as rounds pass.

A similar scenario with Hideous Laughter instead of CS means that once the Bugbear makes any save, the spell is over, period. No more continuous effect even if they do make the save.

A similar scenario with Sleep instead (the really strong spell we're comparing CS against) means the Wizard either only puts the Goblin to sleep, and the party has to fight a Bugbear completely unaffected, or it means the Wizard has to wait for the BB to be damaged to cast sleep, which means 2 rounds with no Crowd Control.

So, my point is, if you're going to allow multiple "shots" of Color Spray, it needs to be toned down. If you were to make it a single "shot" (as the PHB) I think a save vs stun is perfectly fine.

Allowing a save AND requiring an action every round isn't that big of a drawback when you're forcing two Conditions and only one cares about the save.

I see your concern, but let me counter with two things:

1) The wizard could cast sleep, positioning it such that it catches only the bugbear and not the goblin. The fighter runs up and hammers the goblin (likely killing it outright). Now the fight is over.
2) The wizard could cast Tasha's hideous laughter on the Bugbear, taking it out of the fight while the fighter kills the goblin, and then lines up to attack the bugbear with advantage. The bugbear may or may not save after taking damage or on its turn.

This is already a more dynamic fight than using either of the competing spells, as you've outlined it.

[heavyfuel]

I see your concern, but let me counter with two things:

1) The wizard could cast sleep, positioning it such that it catches only the bugbear and not the goblin. The fighter runs up and hammers the goblin (likely killing it outright). Now the fight is over.
2) The wizard could cast Tasha's hideous laughter on the Bugbear, taking it out of the fight while the fighter kills the goblin, and then lines up to attack the bugbear with advantage. The bugbear may or may not save after taking damage or on its turn.

This is already a more dynamic fight than using either of the competing spells, as you've outlined it.

1) Maybe. Bugbears have 27 HP, Sleep averages 22 HP. You have a ~77% chance of wasting your 1/3 of your spells for the day. Were the monsters weaker, you'd be right. But even CR 1 creatures don't succumb to Sleep as easily as they'd succumb to Spray of Perma-blindness
2) True. But THL has all those other limitations I mentioned previously. Despite Sleep being a very strong spell, its biggest drawback - as presented multiple times in this thread - is that Undead and Constructs are immune to it. The list of creatures immune to THL is considerably larger, and considerably fewer creatures are immune to Blinded or Stuned. Plus, THL can't take multiple enemies from the fight.

[Segev]

1) Maybe. Bugbears have 27 HP, Sleep averages 22 HP. You have a ~77% chance of wasting your 1/3 of your spells for the day. Were the monsters weaker, you'd be right. But even CR 1 creatures don't succumb to Sleep as easily as they'd succumb to Spray of Perma-blindness
2) True. But THL has all those other limitations I mentioned previously. Despite Sleep being a very strong spell, its biggest drawback - as presented multiple times in this thread - is that Undead and Constructs are immune to it. The list of creatures immune to THL is considerably larger, and considerably fewer creatures are immune to Blinded or Stuned. Plus, THL can't take multiple enemies from the fight.

In your scenario, it is highly unlikely that color spray will take multiple creatures from the fight, and, if it would, so would sleep. Tasha's hideous laughter's limitations, as I understood you listing them, are shared by even this version of color spray, except for the low-intelligence thing. I've actually found the number of critters that are low enough intelligence to be an issue for Tasha's hideous laughter is pretty small.

[heavyfuel]

In your scenario, it is highly unlikely that color spray will take multiple creatures from the fight, and, if it would, so would sleep.

You take one out in the first round, and then another in the second round. An average of 33 HP is plenty for CR 1 enemies (unlikely to be enough beyond that, though)