Character build levels: what is the appropriate level?

[elliott20]

Too often, we'll see people post character builds all the way to level 20. while we all understand that this is convention, I have to ask people how often do they actually get to play till level 20 and play out the entire build?

From my understanding, most games go from level 5-10. So why don't people post builds around THOSE levels more often? I mean, if those are the levels most people play by, wouldn't those levels be the most important levels that builds should focus on? This way, the core of the build can be enjoy at the meat of the game instead of having a guy going, "oh man, I can't wait till we get to level 17 so I finally can finish my build!"

Thoughts?

[Duke of URL]

When people do "optimization" builds, they presume there are enough class levels available to do whatever it takes.

If you want builds tailored around a certain level range, just ask for them -- and indicate whether or not you have an eye to continue advancing the character past that range.

Truth is, at the level 5-10 range, there isn't too much to do from a "build" standpoint. In general (exceptions exist), you can; qualify for a PrC before level 6, so level 5 builds are either just a base class for 5 levels, or some multi-base-class combination. There may be certain feat combination "packages" for some of the classes. Other than that, not a whole lot of variety, honestly.

Even up to level 10, most PrCs that aren't one-level dips haven't had time to fully develop their power, so you're not going to get the iconic builds like you'd see at level 20

[Person_Man]

I usually ask people what ECL they're playing at. Builds which are good at low levels aren't necessarily good at higher levels.

But the default is to go from 1-20, so that people can evaluate the overall performance of the build. Ideally, it should be good at every level, and not just have some mega combo that kicks in late in the progression.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Because your options are limited at that level, simply. At level 20, the whole spectrum of nonepic choices is open. Thus, a build up to 10 is a halfbuild, it only tells you part of how to do the thing.

[elliott20]

all you make great points, and I'm not trying to dispute that.

However, my point is, when the majority of game play happens between pre-level 20 games, with level 20 almost always being the end game, the core of the build, or rather, the core gameplay portion of the build should be apparent by around those levels. At least, that's how I feel. Or rather, I feel that builds where you don't really know how it all gets pulled together until the late levels are just silly.

But you know what I'm getting at right?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yes. But thing is, good builds work on all levels. The builds you talk about are the poorly built ones. A Font of Inspiration factotum is very efficient in first level, and also in 20th. A Timestop wizard is not, thus it is poorly built.

[elliott20]

exactly, that's what I was getting at. The same can be said of many CODzillas too, where you're not really worth a damn until you're say, level 10 when you get the basic spells needed to pull off CODzilla.

I guess maybe I'm just griping against poor builds then.

[Saph]

From my understanding, most games go from level 5-10. So why don't people post builds around THOSE levels more often?

Theoretically, because the core game goes from levels 1-20, so if you're doing a build, a 'complete' one goes all the way.

In practice, though, it's often as you say - people get so caught up with a build's power at higher levels that they completely forget to make it viable at lower ones (which is where most of D&D is played). So you get amusing results such as the character which would be really really awesome at level 15 played in a game that's stopping at level 9, and people urging new players to take PrCs such as Sublime Chord and Archmage when the new players are at level 1 and have only the most vanishingly slim chance of ever getting to a high enough level for it to matter.

I've always thought a build that goes from levels 1-10 is generally more useful than one that goes from 1-20, as it encourages you to focus more on the levels where most players are going to be using it.

- Saph

[Azerian Kelimon]

Of course, some things manage naturally, without builds, to be viable. Savant, for example, or Swordsages. A swordsage really starts to cheese off with Hand of Death, at level 7, but before that, he already is doing tons of damage, going invisible, and having concealment.

[Riffington]

It's so that optimizers and players can refrain from interacting too much.
Some people can talk about breaking the 20th level game, but it doesn't screw up my 6th level game.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Unless the local wiz uses grease and web, and starts peppering you with glitterdusts. :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

people urging new players to take PrCs such as Sublime Chord and Archmage when the new players are at level 1 and have only the most vanishingly slim chance of ever getting to a high enough level for it to matter.

That's a very good example actually. Many prestige classes require one to take feats that are otherwise ineffective - for instance, Archmage requires skill focus (spellcraft), as well as spell focus in two schools (as opposed to, say, improved spell focus in one school).

Thus, people aiming for some prestige class may end up with a character that is rather impractical at lower levels. For a game running from level 1-10, an archmage character is an obviously underpowered build.

[elliott20]

and then there's the situation where a player is asking for a level 6 while people are giving him advice for level 15 characters.

That's the kind of thing that I think people should take into consideration when giving people build advices.

[deadseashoals]

exactly, that's what I was getting at. The same can be said of many CODzillas too, where you're not really worth a damn until you're say, level 10 when you get the basic spells needed to pull off CODzilla.

I guess maybe I'm just griping against poor builds then.

CoDZilla is one of those things that is great from 1-20. Basically, any build that only involves one class is a great candidate for one of these 1-20 builds, and Cleric 20 and Druid 20 fit the bill. Cleric-Zilla kicks in at level 7 (persistent righteous might), while Druid-Zilla (Natural Spell) kicks in at level 6, but even before then, they're still really awesome.

As for people posting level 20 builds... I think it's just the default. If the level in question is unspecified, then you're pretty much stuck showing the character at all levels, which is what a 1-20 progression accomplishes.

[Swooper]

I may be different from most of you in the respect that most groups that I've played in that got past, say 3rd level, went all the way up and beyond, into the epic levels... However, I've never actually played a character who'se build was planned in advance. Mainly because the last game running (currently halted at level 12/15 (2 sets of characters)) started around a year before I started frequenting this place and learning about the Terrible Secrets Gamers Were Not Meant To Know About Optimization. :smalltongue: