Locking Play at Level 11 Balance Feedback

[dmhelp]

I’ve been reading page after page of old threads on martial caster tier 3-4 balance and the endless ever expanding list of high level spell options that complicate things.

How would the following affect martial caster balance:
Characters do not advance past level 11.
If you have the xp to gain another level you instead gain another ASI (so a character with 355k xp would be level 11 with 9 extra ASIs instead of being level 20).
Barbarians gain Primal Champion at level 11.
Monks gain Perfect Self at level 11.
Magical items, treasures, and adventures continue to get more powerful and more challenging as you continue to gain xp.

Most classes either pick up level 6 spells or a really nice power at level 11 (third attack, reliable talent, improved divine smite, 3rd warlock pact slot) so it seems like a pretty good stopping point.

[Theodoxus]

E11 is a fine stopping point. E10 is probably better (for all the reasons you state to stop at 11... 3rd attack, 6th level spells, etc. Tier 3, even bottom of Tier 3 is still kinda broken in terms of the martial/magic divide. On top of going into a completely different style of game. No longer is the party dungeon delving (outside of a few Lich tombs), or sandbox empire building. They're starting to head off planet to other realms/planes or foiling the plans of the worlds biggest bads. Combat gets buggy at these levels; creatures can be a cakewalk or a TPK depending on how the DM builds and runs the encounters. Bounded Accuracy still plays havoc with numbers. If the party is outnumbered even by 2 critters, combat can turn deadly if there isn't some pretty tactical control and AOE being used.

Of course, this is all table dependent. I've played high end tier 4 stuff that was fantastic. I've also played where it was just a jokefest of stupidity... If the table is used to playing tier 1 and some tier 2 (as seems to be the vast majority of games), E10 is probably better. If you're more used to playing top end tier 2 into tier 3, then E11 is probably the better fit.

As for capstones, if you're ok with that massive power jump it's fine. Rather than ASI though, I'd go with Boons from the DMG. You could keep ASIs every "4" levels, starting at "12th". Dumping a ton of ASI or feats at the upper end of the campaign just seems... weird.

[Kane0]

E11 is fine if that's what your table is comfortable with. Just assign bonus ASIs like you would epic boons at that point instead of levelling up.

[MrStabby]

I think that this is fine, broadly... but its worth thinking through what the actual problems are and if you are solving things that are in fact... not problems alongside things that are.

My view is that the issue with casters at high levels is mainly down to two features: 1) spells known, 2) higher level spells.

Higher level spells are simple enough - you don't get to circumvent the ranger's chance to shine in the wilderness by just teleporting to the destination. You don't just get to force cage some enemies and with the fight without either side rolling a die outside of initiative.

Spells known are a bit more complicated. At higher levels I find casters have enough spells to tick multiple boxes. They can take a buff spell, an AoE damage spell, a control spell, a secondary damage spell for pesky resistances, and then some more utility spells or situational spells. I find that as casters level up the ability to step on the toes of other classes whislt giving up less other functionality grows.


What this proposal does, which I think is a bit more dangerous, is to also limit number of spells per day beyond level 11. i.e. you are still using the lower cap on the number of turns when a caster gets to do something cool and use their abilities. If you are going to be pushing for anything towards the upper end of adventuring days then this could make a lot of casters a bit of a drag. Add to this that even cantrips are going to be stuck at 3rd tier whilst weapon attacks will scale with feats.

Some classes will suffer more than others - even with just 11 levels the wizard and land druid spell recovery options will be important.

Some classes will miss out or core thematic abilities - look at the bard: valor bard making an attack whist casting a spell or swords bard using a free d6 rather than inspiration die for their abilities. Or monks - diamond soul is the reason to stick in monk for many players.

Then there is multiclassing - hitting level 11 gets you that nice big boost, but only if your character concept doesn't need something from another class. If so, you are screwed for the rest of the game.



If you are to do this I would suggest that you make class features available to spend feats on as well. Once you eliminate the higher level spells from the game then casters fall back into line quite well and this gives them something to spend their feats on once they have picked up reslience, lucky, warcaster... Simply gate it at the appropriate XP level so you could pick up Cleansing touch as a Paladin when you have enough XP to be level 14.

[dmhelp]

E11 is a fine stopping point. E10 is probably better (for all the reasons you state to stop at 11... 3rd attack, 6th level spells, etc. Tier 3, even bottom of Tier 3 is still kinda broken in terms of the martial/magic divide.

As for capstones, if you're ok with that massive power jump it's fine. Rather than ASI though, I'd go with Boons from the DMG. You could keep ASIs every "4" levels, starting at "12th". Dumping a ton of ASI or feats at the upper end of the campaign just seems... weird.

Level 11 just seems to give some cool things that are capstone worthy. There is no way I would play a level 10 Fighter if that was the level limit. I'd play something else with two attacks. Ending at an even level also makes multiclassing Rogue more of a no brainer I think.

Tacking on feats seemed similar to Epic Boons but maybe those would be an option too.


My view is that the issue with casters at high levels is mainly down to two features: 1) spells known, 2) higher level spells.

What this proposal does, which I think is a bit more dangerous, is to also limit number of spells per day beyond level 11. i.e. you are still using the lower cap on the number of turns when a caster gets to do something cool and use their abilities. If you are going to be pushing for anything towards the upper end of adventuring days then this could make a lot of casters a bit of a drag. Add to this that even cantrips are going to be stuck at 3rd tier whilst weapon attacks will scale with feats.

Some classes will suffer more than others - even with just 11 levels the wizard and land druid spell recovery options will be important.

Some classes will miss out or core thematic abilities - look at the bard: valor bard making an attack whist casting a spell or swords bard using a free d6 rather than inspiration die for their abilities. Or monks - diamond soul is the reason to stick in monk for many players.

If you are to do this I would suggest that you make class features available to spend feats on as well. Once you eliminate the higher level spells from the game then casters fall back into line quite well and this gives them something to spend their feats on once they have picked up reslience, lucky, warcaster... Simply gate it at the appropriate XP level so you could pick up Cleansing touch as a Paladin when you have enough XP to be level 14.

I was thinking with less often but more powerful encounters it would work out ok. The characters would also have legendary level treasure to help. I was also thinking of letting level 11 casters use level 7-9 scrolls without intelligence checks (so the higher level magic could be titrated out as rewards).

That is a great idea about unlocking class features as feats. So eventually a Wizard could pick up Spell Mastery and Signature Spell. Would any of the features or subclass features cause balance problems? Warlock Mystic Arcanum would allow backdoor entry to higher level spells.

[MrStabby]

Level 11 just seems to give some cool things that are capstone worthy. There is no way I would play a level 10 Fighter if that was the level limit. I'd play something else with two attacks. Ending at an even level also makes multiclassing Rogue more of a no brainer I think.

Tacking on feats seemed similar to Epic Boons but maybe those would be an option too.



I was thinking with less often but more powerful encounters it would work out ok. The characters would also have legendary level treasure to help. I was also thinking of letting level 11 casters use level 7-9 scrolls without intelligence checks (so the higher level magic could be titrated out as rewards).

That is a great idea about unlocking class features as feats. So eventually a Wizard could pick up Spell Mastery and Signature Spell. Would any of the features or subclass features cause balance problems? Warlock Mystic Arcanum would allow backdoor entry to higher level spells.

There are two things here that are related. 1) what is balanced and, 2) what is fun.

From a balance perspective you are probably fine with infrequent but powerful encounters and handing out treasure...

From a fun perspective it might be a 'feel-bad' solution. A caster has to use their allotment of treasure just to do the stuff that they feel their class should do anyway.

Spell scrolls dont help that much - there is an air of permission being needed to use them. It isnt a player choice but rather a DM choice about exactly which spells a player may cast and when.

Furthermore there is a bit of a different feeling between "my character is awesome" and "my character is mediocre but owns awesome things".

I suggest a chat with your players about what they value in their character and what they are looking for. Find a way to preserve, or even enhance, what is cool about them whilst you cut down on the more challenging spells.

[dmhelp]

Here is an updated version:
Stop leveling at 11 (85k xp) and cantrips increase to 4 dice damage (4d10 firebolt at 11). Every additional 30k xp grants one ASI or one additional sequential subclass power (the next in line from any of their current subclasses, or from a new thematically appropriate subclass if all other subclasses are “finished”.

Examples:
Level 11 draconic sorc -> dragon wings -> draconic presence -> sculpt spells (starting down evocation path).
Level 11 div wiz -> greater portent -> dark ones blessing (made a pact with a fiend).
Level 6 thief rogue/5 gloom ranger could take either supreme sneak or iron mind next.

I’m not sure how to do non subclass additional class features due to multiclassed characters. Basically they could pick up all of the level 11 capstones and beyond and there wouldn’t be much reason to single class at all. And if you only let single classed chars do it then it screws over multiclassed chars.

[Cass]

Here is an updated version:
Stop leveling at 11 (85k xp) and cantrips increase to 4 dice damage (4d10 firebolt at 11). Every additional 30k xp grants one ASI or one additional sequential subclass power (the next in line from any of their current subclasses, or from a new thematically appropriate subclass if all other subclasses are “finished”.

Examples:
Level 11 draconic sorc -> dragon wings -> draconic presence -> sculpt spells (starting down evocation path).
Level 11 div wiz -> greater portent -> dark ones blessing (made a pact with a fiend).
Level 6 thief rogue/5 gloom ranger could take either supreme sneak or iron mind next.

I’m not sure how to do non subclass additional class features due to multiclassed characters. Basically they could pick up all of the level 11 capstones and beyond and there wouldn’t be much reason to single class at all. And if you only let single classed chars do it then it screws over multiclassed chars.
If your issue of inbalance at high level are the high level spells, you can rule that no class can automatically learn spells above level 6 and instead they might be handpicked by you then given to the players as quest rewards.

[Kane0]

Real question for a moment if you will.

Have you actually had a game go up to or past level 11 already? Not just a one-shot?