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View Full Version : The Dronemaster Build ( 11 Alchemist / 3 Genie Chainlock / 6 X )



Renduaz
2021-03-09, 01:02 AM
Creating something like this has been a pet peeve of mine for a while, and when Tasha's came out, it provided some fantastic augmentations which make it truly feasible, and now I decided to share the unique build for any interested player's benefit and suggestions for improvement. Let's begin.

What is the Dronemaster?

The Dronemaster is very similar to its real world namesake, granting you command over one or several 'drones' ( Or magical servants ) which, while probably ( with a strong emphasis, considering they might just do exactly that depending on your wits and objective ) won't be a substitute for a full party in intense prolonged battle or many situations, can still inflict enormous havoc, pain, suffering and confusion upon your enemies, in addition to carrying out elaborate infiltration and sabotage missions, from a remote position.

How remote? Usually anywhere on the same plane of existence, or several hours away from destination depending on how much firepower and help you wanna pack, but we'll get to that later. Anyone with a little experience in Chainlocks or munchkinry in general reading this right now is probably already recognizing the old Chainlock feature at play, but the real meat of this build is not just 'infinite' range, but effective power at that range, and at all, which is pretty tricky to assemble with the range and duration limitations of most tools and buffs around. But, that is where we come in.

At full capacity, the Dronemaster can feel like a fraction of Godhood - An undying, unseen, nearly all-reaching, practically untraceable, risk-free and mostly costless force at your disposal while lounging at the comfort of your base.

Note: In the past I've I explored Wizard abilities which are far more grandiose in terms of remotely commanding with things involving conjuration, planar binding, using creatures to control other creatures, Simulacrum command, and other high-level spell antics, but the downside is that it only really gains momentum at high levels, while half of this build is pretty viable even at much lower levels.

Requirements

After all the talking, let's dive into the technical details.

Race

Any, but a High Elf is excellent for its 4 hour Trance ability enabling you to often achieve a long rest ( Which as a Dronemaster, you can initiate without danger ) before an opponent can finish theirs.

Class

3 levels of Warlock with Pact of the Chain is mandatory, and it is recommended to choose the Genie patron. Followed by at least 11 levels of Artificer, with a recommendation for Alchemist, and the other 6 can be optimally utilize either to go for the level 17 artificer if you wish, or into a Clockwork Soul Sorcerer/Scribe Wizard, though the Wizard subclass is just my preference.

Feats

Nothing particularly necessary on this front, though Chef and Poisoner would fit the archetype.

Eldritch Invocations

Voice of the Chain Master and Investment of the Chain Master. Eyes of the Runekeeper is useful, The rest are optional.

Artificer Infusions

Repeating shot, Homunculus Servant, Enhanced Defense and Enhanced Weapon are staples.

Spells

Suggestion, Animate Dead, Nystul's Magic Aura, Clairvoyance, Phantom Steed, Nondetection, Sending. Note that these spells aren't strictly mandatory, with some obviously only available if you MC as a Wizard. All the spells you really need can already be drawn from the Artificer spell list or your Warlock pact.

Deployment

As for the fun part, we'll take a look at some of the stuff you can accomplish starting from earlier levels and onwards, with the first order of business being your familiar.

Chosen Familiar

The familiar is the centerpiece of the build, so we'll need to pick wisely depending on the goal. Ignoring the lousy basic familiars, let's focus on two of the Chainlock familiar options that I deem most efficient - The Imp and the Sprite.

The Imp is a more reliable damage dealer, beefier, can see in magical darkness, is immune to fire, resistant to nonmagical attacks, to magic, is invisible at will, and all the other good stuff everyone knows. Its main drawbacks however are lack of range and partial damage reliance on Poison damage.

The Sprite is extremely fragile and weak, but has a significant advantage, and not the rather ineffective poison ability, but being the only familiar capable of making a ranged weapon attack while wielding a miniature shortbow, and wearing leather armor too. Disclaimer: this build takes the conservative approach of assuming your DM would forbid custom-fitting familiars with tiny armor or weapon versions and assigning arbitrary stats for that sake. If they don't, then never pick the Sprite.

These familiars are amazing in their own right. Much has been said by myself and others on the manipulations of a Chain Master and how easily you can steal ( even giving thieves tools to a familiar with their great dex and stealth ), frame, plant things, madden others, start fights, spy on, poison the drinks of, intimidate and a host of other stuff that I can link a primer on upon request that would take too long for this thread.

However, they are not much for direct engagement - holding their own against threats, direct assassination, environmental interaction and influence, etc, and I aim to change that.

Low Level Statistics and Buffs

First of all, its important to remember that as a Chainlock, whenever you take the Attack action, regardless of distance or target, you can forego one attack to make your familiar attack with their reaction, perserving action and bonus action on their turn.

This is important, as your primary ranged combat strategies to protect a feeble Sprite or Imp later on would be to attack with a reaction, turn invisible with an action, fly away, and repeat. The Investment of the Chain Master then enables you to attack twice with your familiar, both with your action and their reaction, then with your bonus action and their action, should you feel comfortable exposing your familiar. In order to do either of those, you will have to let your familiar act on a telepathic instruction rather than your own perception.

Our Artificer Infusions can only be applied to our ranged familiar, the Sprite, buffing both weapon and armor, with repeating shot providing infinite ammo in equal measure if the Sprite did not already have that. Next up, we can expend 1st level slots to give the familiar indefinitely lasting, drinkable at leisure elixirs of Resilience and Boldness.

Aid can then be cast for 8 hours without concentration, and Elemental Weapon or Flame Arrows for 1 hour when it comes to more nearby targets, which might frequently be the case in a party. Alternatively, you can expend your concentration on Enhance Ability for a temp HP boost. Lastly, a familiar can retreat to regain some minor temp HP with Chef treats, or a Poisoner can coat the Sprite's bow with poison, or any poison you can access really.

With all boosts combined, most of which could be done as at least by level 6 save 3rd level spells, our familiar is still a bit puny, but with invisible strikes, flight, high range attacks ( at disadvanatage for the truly far, but still worth it ) and resistances, it can now survive a hit or two rom low level foes instead of being a puffball, and probably take out some with harassment tactics.

Do not forget that if your familiar is compromised in any way, captured or charmed or vulnerable to damage, you can dismiss it with an action and resummon it with infusions and leftover effects intact before sending it off again.

At any rate, with the current statistics, we still strive for our familiar to never get hit, which problematic for the Imp due to opportunity attacks, but plausible for the invisible fleeting sprite against many creatures. You should therefore reserve the Imp for swift assassination attempts of targets with low HP and no resistance to poison if you are confident that one could be picked off in a quick burst of attacks.

The stats including all optional buffs are as follows:

Imp - 14AC, 6+1d4 to hit, 15hp, 1d4piercing+3d6poison ( halved on success)+1d4elemental

Sprite - 17AC, 7hp, +8 to hit ( shortbow ), 1d1+2+1d4elemental+
2d8poision on DC14 save if Poisoner, more for other poisons ( Give vials to familiar to apply at leisure )

Bottled Respite

The Genie's Bottled Respite, a feature with so much utility at level 1, it deserves its own primer (https://justpaste.it/2o59b) to truly appreciate its scope, but in short, you can utilize it for two main purposes - transportation via flight to whichever new position you want your familiar to bring you to, which can be done as a general command, since your familiar is intelligent, or being carried by a party member or other servant while you are controlling drones, and secondly as a delivery system.

Although it requires some preparation or costs depending on your selection, handing your familiar a nearly broken ( low HP ) or full hp Genie's Vessel to nontheless be hit and broken by the familiar at any point in space, allowing 20 foot radius worth of content to instantly spill out, grants you a major means of physical engagement, and resembles an 8th level object teleportation function. Whether it be a large assembled rock to be dropped above some unfortunate foes, or used to collapse a structure, a stack of alchemist's fire or even plain wood or oil ready to be ignited, pure molten metal from a temporary forge installed in your vessel, the possibilities are endless and varied.

The Miniature Armada

The Familiar is not the sole drone at your disposal. The Homunculus Servant can be commanded, at any range, via your familiar if brought along with it, is a flying creature, and can hurl ranged force bolts at opponents using your bonus action ( Which you can see as targets through your familiar's senses ), making it an amazing companion for the sprite, especially as a distraction.

The downside is the lack of invisibility, but the Homunculus can still masquerade as an inconspicuous object when immobile, or you could cast Invisibility on it for a short expedition, or simply infuse an item inside your Genie's vessel and have your familiar break and release it if absolute stealth is required.

Later on, you can add a Tiny Servant to your ranks, lasting 8 hours without concentration, and given a general order to assist/attack with/follow your other minions. It has Blindsight to 60 feet, so it can alert its companions to danger.

Even later, you can forego a concentration buff to summon a Construct Spirit for 1 hour as the 'tank' of a short distance incursion if you resume your advancement as an Artificer, and later on if you MC as a Wizard, Animate Dead and Phantom Steed skeleton archers could be introduced to the whole mix as a bona fide non-stealthy harassment force.

Remember, you can give Alchemist potions to any companion for as many spell slots as you have to spare, which might not be much, but buff spells such as Aid which affect multiple targets can also apply.

High Level Mechanics

At around level 14 ( Artificer 11 ), and a bit prior, you will gain access to Restorative Reagents, allowing a minion to regain a measure of temp HP when recouping by drinking one of your potions. More importantly, you gain access to the final cornerstone of the high level Dronemaster, which is the Spell-Storing Item. By entrusting it to your familiar, or say choosing your Sprite's bow, you can invest all kinds of utility spells that your familiar itself can now use, up to 10 times with an INT of 5.

You could try barring opponents in their quarters by casting Arcane Lock on stuff or other antics, but most of the time, you'll want to pick either Catapult or Tasha's Caustic Brew, or Melf's Acid Arrow if subclass spells are allowed. Doing so effectively solves both your Imp's absence of range, and your Sprite's weakness to boot, allowing you to inflict 4d8 bludgeoning damage, 4d4 acid damage or 4d4+2d4 acid damage for up to 10 times.

Tasha's Caustic Brew is incredible as you can make your familiar vanish and the damage to co tinue until your target spends their action putting it out, during which time theu can keep getting pelted by other minions or attacked again.

As for your remaining 6 levels, you could go for the level 17 Artificer or even a warlock, or any choice really, but notable options are the Clockwork Soul sorcerer, granting you access to Metamagic for your buffs and such, and the Bastion of Law feature which can bestow up to 5d8 warding points on a minion. Note that it is distinct from temp HP and Aid's raised HP max, meaning bonuses from other sources all stack, enabling your drone to suffer a bit of punishment even at high levels.

The Scribe Wizard with Manifest Mind also works wonders with the archetype, although at a much shorter range, or you could go for Divinations Portent on any target you can see at any range, or a Necromancer. At any rate, you should pick up Animate Dead. One cool trick you could do with it is summon a zombie, give it an Alter Self potion ( Keep in mind it can't be dispelled unlike Alter Self ), cast Nystul's Magic Aura on it with some perfume or body spray possibly, and send it out with a familiar or other means of communication to act as your Avatar or pretend to be someone else.

Summary

Not so bad for what started out as a powerless minion with only a few hitpoints and tickle strikes, right? Here are a couple key points to discuss though:

A combined effort

Despite being pimped out many times over even the standard Chainlock familiar, our drone was always meant to be just a drone, and would likely be overwhelmed in no time if thrust into heedless frontal combat. The plan should start by disrupting, confusing, turning one against the other, poisoning or misleading enemies into hurting themselves via our invisible presence and the tools at our disposal ( sounds, items, etc ), activation of our 'haymaker' in the form of the shattered Genie vessel, whether to hinder or to damage, pciking off vulnerable isolated targets which can't see or reach us, and then using the Armada at full offensive to bring down or weaken a stronger target.

Play your cards right, and the drones might just 'clear out' whole sections or accomplish a full party objective, but anticipate using them mostly as support or covert ops. Even sending it one party member to a foray, or better yet, using your Warlock's Suggestion to coerce a creature into doing so, with your drones as backup multiplies their deadliness.

Your minions are more powerful than my presentation

This build only touches on what your minions can accomplish by yourself, by strict RAW and without any external resources at that. In a real campaign, for the DM to narrate the lengthy escapades of your drones and their mischief in a far-off area, it is likely of importance to the whole party, for example, a place you aren't keen on setting foot in personally yet, or require further information, or to weaken first, or just need a rest for a while.

In that instance, the entire party can pitch in to bolster the drones, especially full casters like Clerics, Wizards, Bards and Druids, or even another Artificer or Warlock, with whatever long-acting boons they can provide. To boot, as an Artificer, you will likely be able to replicate magic items you find throughout the campaign like potions, arrows, rings, necklaces, etc that are much more potent than your basic class fare, though you might be wary of losing those.

Even with the party buffing every member of your armada alone, particularly those you can't spare spell slots or infusions for, it could easily quadruple in resilience and damage output, and that point might as well even carry out direct assaults against other groups.

Your drones cannot be easily dispelled

It is very crucial to underscore that a creature with Dispel Magic, rare enough on their own, do not mean the end of your incursion. I don't want to babble about the rules too much, but you can Google the relevant info - Familiars can't be unsummoned by Dispel Magic, nor can the Homunculus infusion which is not a spell, nor any of your Artificer infusion and Potion effects, and your spell-storin items can't be depleted either. Tiny Servant can be, as well as any buff spells.

Antimagic Field is more dangerous, winking out your drones and tools out of existence, however it is worth noting that the caster has just deprived themselves of an invaluable spell slot by wasting it on your drones, and furthermore that if you intend to linger, then they accomplished nothing - The drones and all of their long-lasting buffs and infusions will reappear as soon as that caster moves away or the spell's duration ends, completely intact. Not to mention you can always just try to keep enemy casters at range.

It would take a full-blown Antimagic Zone spread out over an area to really halt the drones in that manner, assuming they can't bypass it, but those are found in very high-level environments anyway.

The drones are expendable and renewable

As you might be eager to call out, there is a variety of ways by which the drones might be discovered, knocked out, or fail. The fundamental reason of being a Dronemaster, though, is that your losses are only measured in time, spell slots, minor costs of vessel replacement or new familiar if you failed to wink one out in time, whatever you put into a vessel if at all, and pride.

You and your party are sitting in safety taking care of downtime activities while all of those events transpire, and there is almost no direct spell or ability by which any of your minions could be pried for information about their owner before ceasing to exist by thought, not to mention you knowing as soon as it happens or just going to a solo location and withholding important whereabouts or details from them. The only risk is tyour enemies having access to spells like Commune or Contact Other Plane and the DM himself opting to provide them accurate details of identity or whereabouts, as a sort of deus ex machina intervention.

You can just keep doing it over and over again as soon as you rest, and if you are an High Elf, you finish resting 4 hours earlier than most of your foes. Your capacity to be a nasty nuisance is even more intimidating than your minions raw power.

Imagine just finishing dealing with the hellish mess caused by your drones to items, property, creature and harmony, trying to nap, repair stuff, attend to an experiment or study or feeding, only for the nightmare to apparate yet again, informing them in voice that you can keep this up until the end of their days, and there is nothing they can do to permnanently dispose of the drones.

Imagine yourself having to live that life. You can easily get entire groups of mobs or baddies adopting a submissive attitude toward the sadistic mage's Emissary and parleying with you as to what tribute you want or an action they should undertake, or cease partaking in. They could also be made to flee or hide away from their abode. Alternatively, you can intimidate single members to sabotage their own and be spared by you, and the list goes on.

This works even on a lot of unintelligent beasts and monstrosities, after being swarmed enough times, they might just be incentivized to migrate from the infested lair or territory for new grounds, paving a clear path for your party.

You're more than your drones

Remember, this is not an 'all-in' build - Your character won't be a jumble of different classes desined to exclusively facilitate the drones bht render you worthless otherwise. You can be a level 17 Alchemist Artificer with only the 3 levels of Chainlock as your dip, and with the Genie patron, it honestly meshes perfectly for any Artificer. Likewise, levelling as a Clockwork Soul Sorcerer or Wizard of any kind will open up Multiclasser slots, be thematic for your Artificer main, and add excellent contributions.

If at any given adventuring day you decide to skip remote control and just dive in with your party, or only bring out your drones for special occassions, you won't be limited by it.

Finish

And that's the full build and guide, hope it serves you well.

MaxWilson
2021-03-09, 01:57 AM
While I understand the appeal of Chainlock 3 and I see the synergy with Genie, I honestly don't see what Alchemist 11 has to offer that justifies the opportunity cost. It looks to me like you'd be better off as either a pure warlock (especially House Lyrandar) spamming Arcane Eyes, Sprites, and Elementals, or as a combination e.g. Warlock 7+/Wizard 5+ generating dozens of Tiny Servants to go along with your familiars. (Make it a Necro 6/Warlock 7+ if you want a nuclear option.) In either case you wind up with something far stronger at level 14 than an Alchemist 11/Genie 3--the missing infusions like Repeating Shot are more than made up by the enormous increase in your "drone fleet" due to more and better warlock slots = more spells per hour of summoning, and the extra invocations don't hurt (especially if you want to accompany your drone fleet as a blaster).

Is having a 55ish HP homonculus and a couple of infusions like Repeating Shot (Alchemist 11/Genie 3) really better than having an extra dozen or so Tiny Servants (Wizard 5/Warlock 9) to accompany your Sprite/Imp "drone", and possibly a Shadow Demon or eight Dust Mephits or a Fire Elemental to boot, and Agonizing Repelling Blast of Lethargy in your back pocket (in addition to Voice of the Chain Master and Investment of the Chain Master) and Synaptic Static for when you want to come along in person?

What's tougher, a homoculus or a Fire Elemental and a dozen Tiny Servants? And the elementals and demons come online as early as level 7, not 11 or 14.

The Alchemist 11 route just doesn't strike me as cost-effective.

Renduaz
2021-03-09, 02:18 AM
While I understand the appeal of Chainlock 3 and I see the synergy with Genie, I honestly don't see what Alchemist 11 has to offer that justifies the opportunity cost. It looks to me like you'd be better off as either a pure warlock (especially House Lyrandar) spamming Arcane Eyes, Sprites, and Elementals, or as a combination e.g. Warlock 7+/Wizard 5+ generating dozens of Tiny Servants to go along with your familiars. (Make it a Necro 6/Warlock 7+ if you want a nuclear option.) In either case you wind up with something far stronger at level 14 than an Alchemist 11/Genie 3--the missing infusions like Repeating Shot are more than made up by the enormous increase in your "drone fleet" due to more and better warlock slots = more spells per hour of summoning, and the extra invocations don't hurt (especially if you want to accompany your drone fleet as a blaster).

Is having a 55ish HP homonculus and a couple of infusions like Repeating Shot (Alchemist 11/Genie 3) really better than having an extra dozen or so Tiny Servants (Wizard 5/Warlock 9) to accompany your Sprite/Imp "drone", and possibly a Shadow Demon or eight Dust Mephits or a Fire Elemental to boot, and Agonizing Repelling Blast of Lethargy in your back pocket (in addition to Voice of the Chain Master and Investment of the Chain Master) and Synaptic Static for when you want to come along in person?

What's tougher, a homoculus or a Fire Elemental and a dozen Tiny Servants?

This just doesn't strike me as cost-effective.

The specialization is the range, and the level. The Tiny Servant is mostly just around to provide blindsight for us and mostly carried in a vessel since its not very stealthy in multitudes, nor can it fly, and many summoning spells are short in duration, not to mention disregarding stealth right out of the door, which could mean never getting past the front door without alert or conflict, which can be counterproductive.

At their core, with their indefinite duration and infused items, as well as potions and spell storing items and poisions attached, our minions can cover enormous or unlimited distances before buffing themselves up or deploying tools right on the spot, over 8 hours, or 24 hours, or even days and weeks without spell buffs. They can also lurk about waiting for plots to unfold or gathering information to a duration that non-permanent summons can't, whether by detection or by duration of spell.

As stated at the start, in the past I have posted summoner builds which are actually much more effective as pure Wizard mains with small dips rather than Warlocks, and can field hundreds of medium and high CR dreadhordes of all creature types at short to vast distances using the Wizard's arsenal of conjuration and control, especially at high levels.

However, this is not intended to be a summoner build, nor is maximum power the goal here. The goal is a drone with an indefinite or very high longevity ( hours to days duration ) that can be buffed even ater travelling half a continent and which can also carry out stealth infiltrations with ease.

To that end, Restorative Reagents and Spell-Storing items are vital provisions on that journey, and the Alchemist's potions can be drank at any point as well, as long as you yourself do not take a long rest. They're also pretty powerful when given to party members, especially as free Fly potions, or to yourself, and Alchemist spells like Gaseous Form are also ideal for infiltrations.

Naturally, the build is open to modification, and if someone does not forsee any option or need for very remote infiltrations or maximum stealth in their playthrough, they can always opt for your proposition. But the original build does have a rationale behind it.

Dork_Forge
2021-03-09, 03:07 AM
Interesting concept, I skimmed at the moment but some quick thoughts:

You need to use your action every turn to see through the eyes of your familiar, so you're not taking the attack action. This makes the Sprite's ranged attack completely pointless once you get the homunculous.

I'm not sure why you think this would be a great option for infiltration? The Sprite isn't bad at it, but the Homunculus is rocking a +5 when you get it without being invisible. You don't lost much if they get caught and destroyed, but they're no where near as good as a PC unless you heavily invest in them slot and spell wise.

Going Battle Smith for the Steel Defender seems more appropriate, but I can see the whole not flying thing being a theme breaker.

Flock of Familiars seems like it should have a mention in this build.

Renduaz
2021-03-09, 03:25 AM
Interesting concept, I skimmed at the moment but some quick thoughts:

You need to use your action every turn to see through the eyes of your familiar, so you're not taking the attack action. This makes the Sprite's ranged attack completely pointless once you get the homunculous.

I'm not sure why you think this would be a great option for infiltration? The Sprite isn't bad at it, but the Homunculus is rocking a +5 when you get it without being invisible. You don't lost much if they get caught and destroyed, but they're no where near as good as a PC unless you heavily invest in them slot and spell wise.

Going Battle Smith for the Steel Defender seems more appropriate, but I can see the whole not flying thing being a theme breaker.

Flock of Familiars seems like it should have a mention in this build.

Hmm, I had mistaken the wording of VoTCM to mean that an action is no longer required, but after looking it up I stand corrected. Still, that leaves us with the Investment's bonus action, and because our Sprite is intelligent, telepathic communication to convey the scenario, without perceiving through ts senses, which still enables reaction attacks against enemies seen by the Sprite. Once its onvisible again, we could spend an extra turn assessing the situation personally if absolutely required, but honestly the Sprites and Imps are devious and sentient beings, they can handle their own talents well enough.

The Steel Defender was definitely considered, but it works better in the direction of a summoner orientation proposed by MaxWilson, due to several factors - it takes a bonus action to command an attack which can **** with our familiar economy, it can't fly, it is Medium - meaning it won't even be getting in spaces which our other minions might, and of course be discovered much more quickly.

What you can do, and this goes for the Homunculus as well, is give Invisibility via the spell-storing item, but It is a massive downgrade from the 10 uses of ranged spell attacks. On the other hand, if you have invisibility potions to replicate, it can be viable. An Alter Self potion to go along would make it a much superior infiltrator in some situations, but sadly those are separate subclasses. It can also be created inside the Genie Vessel and dropped as the tank with the other minions as support, which in direct conflicts, is actually pretty good. However, its probably going down with no route of escape by any creatures which can reach it after some fighting.

The Homunculus isn't great at stealth, save for its ability to pose as a tiny object when possible, but its mostly there to be busted out of agenie vessel to assist the ranged sprite with force blasts as a flying creature when an encounter takes place, and it won't be unsummoned in any span of time.

Flock of Familiars was not mentioned because I think LoK spells aren't official (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1230934927538941953) outside of the module itself.

MaxWilson
2021-03-09, 09:57 PM
Interesting concept, I skimmed at the moment but some quick thoughts:

You need to use your action every turn to see through the eyes of your familiar, so you're not taking the attack action. This makes the Sprite's ranged attack completely pointless once you get the homunculous.

This was my first thought too, until I realized that there's nothing that requires you to see the target which your familiar is attacking.

"Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one Attack of its own with its Reaction."

So you actually don't need to use your action to see, you just take the Attack action and give up the attack.

Dork_Forge
2021-03-10, 01:54 AM
This was my first thought too, until I realized that there's nothing that requires you to see the target which your familiar is attacking.

"Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one Attack of its own with its Reaction."

So you actually don't need to use your action to see, you just take the Attack action and give up the attack.

It's not the Sprite that it hinders, it's the Homunculus. Without seeing through the Sprite's eyes, you have no way of communicating with the homunculus to direct it to attack, if you do that then you lose the Sprite's attack. They just don't seem to work together.

Renduaz
2021-03-10, 02:30 AM
It's not the Sprite that it hinders, it's the Homunculus. Without seeing through the Sprite's eyes, you have no way of communicating with the homunculus to direct it to attack, if you do that then you lose the Sprite's attack. They just don't seem to work together.

You absolutely can though. The Homunculus is sentient with an INT of 10 and obeys general commands just like the familiar. It can even act independently if you are incapacitated. The only thing you need to do is take a bonus action on your turn to enable its other actions.

You can then either instruct your homunculus to assist the familiar in attacking targets and try moving in synchronity/cooperating as a general command, or use your telepathic communication with the familiar to get a verbal assessment of targets and options, then instruct your familiar to use its own voice to direct the homunculus.

Dork_Forge
2021-03-10, 02:53 AM
You absolutely can though. The Homunculus is sentient with an INT of 10 and obeys general commands just like the familiar. It can even act independently if you are incapacitated. The only thing you need to do is take a bonus action on your turn to enable its other actions.

You can then either instruct your homunculus to assist the familiar in attacking targets and try moving in synchronity/cooperating as a general command, or use your telepathic communication with the familiar to get a verbal assessment of targets and options, then instruct your familiar to use its own voice to direct the homunculus.

There is no support for that in the rules at all, even if you can in general command it to do something, in combat that goes away:


In combat, the homunculus shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action.

You don't sacrifice you bonus action like with the familiar, you explicitly need to command it. Your familiar saying to attack isn't you, it's a separate creature, by the same logic you could loan your homunculus out to another party member to use.

Without Voice of the Chain Master, there's no way for you to relay your commands, here's another interesting quirk:

This also relies on the DM asking the PC to roll for initiative for a combat they aren't actually in, or even in the general vicinity of. I'm not saying some DMs wouldn't support this build, but it seems very much in houserule territory rather than RAW.

Edit: Looking at your previous reply, you discount the Steel Defender partially because it requires a bonus action... but it functions exactly the same as the Homunculus Servant, I think it's literally the same text.

Renduaz
2021-03-10, 03:53 AM
There is no support for that in the rules at all, even if you can in general command it to do something, in combat that goes away:



You don't sacrifice you bonus action like with the familiar, you explicitly need to command it. Your familiar saying to attack isn't you, it's a separate creature, by the same logic you could loan your homunculus out to another party member to use.

Without Voice of the Chain Master, there's no way for you to relay your commands, here's another interesting quirk:

This also relies on the DM asking the PC to roll for initiative for a combat they aren't actually in, or even in the general vicinity of. I'm not saying some DMs wouldn't support this build, but it seems very much in houserule territory rather than RAW.

Edit: Looking at your previous reply, you discount the Steel Defender partially because it requires a bonus action... but it functions exactly the same as the Homunculus Servant, I think it's literally the same text.

The curious RAW caveat in this deliberation is that there is actually nothing in the infusions description that says an issued command must be verbal at all, or directly delivered by the sound of your voice for that matter, much as is the case with the definition of receiving a command from someone in a real world scenario.

We only know two things, the first of which is that we do not share an innate telepathic bond with the homunculus, and therefore physically speaking, the command must be delivered in a way that the homunculus can perceive, which still does not preclude non-verbal or indirect commands.

The second clue we have, which appears to be completely open to interpretation, is found in the Homunculus's Languages stat, which states that 'The Homunculus understands the languages you speak'. This could imply one of two things, which seems to be impossible to objectively determine even when taking all words verbatim:

1. That the Homunculus only understands any given language when you speak it, yet becomes oblivious to it as soon as you cease speaking, not to mention being unable to comprehend even non-lingual input with its other senses, the latter part actually not being stated regardless. If we choose this, then you are right.

2. That the familiar permanently understands, as part of its creation and imbued in its stat block, any of the officially listed Languages in your own character's sheet

interpretation number 1 is dubious for several reasons - The homunculus, while loyal to you, is a sentient being capable of free will choices wven while you are down, and has an INT of 10, so it is unclear why it wouldn't have the intellectual ability to recognize a language on its own, or furthermore why it wouldn't be able to comprehend structured visual input, which is mandatory in order to act independently in an environment.

If then, we accept option 2, there is no reason to assume that spending a bonus action per some of the examples below would not constitute a command:

1. During combat, the Homunculus is out of hearing range, and you spend a bonus action to shout to your familiar a command to be repeated ahead to the Homunculus in Common. It is still your indirect command and would qualify as such in any real world battlefield or by definition.

2. Using a bonus action to command your familiar with a nonverbal sign, such as a gesture

3. Take indirect commands from your friendly companions, but only so long as you spent your bonus action to issue such a command.

If you think its the sound of my voice that matters and not the bonus action, ask yourself this - If a kenku or mage impostor kidnaps me in my sleep and takes my place, would the impostor be able to command an attack? I think the order of business below is in line with RAW:

1. Give obedient Homunculus a general command as soon as its created to treat all relayed familiar commands as my commands without doubt.

2. Use a bonus action to command my Homunculus by telepathically conveying it through a familiar's voice or gestures.

As for the initiative, if the DM cheeses it by saying my homunculus and I can never enter initiative due to distance, which is completely idiotic by the way since a combatant can participate from any distance - Does a 1000 feet eldritch blast build never participate? Does a summoner hiding in the next room over?, then you can still cheese it back by starting a punching match with another party member if that's what it takes.

Steel defender doesn't work as a drone due to size and mobility, and because of that it also doesn't help that it deprives the Homunculus or sprite of opportunities. But choosing Steel Defender for non-stealth, non-range operations is a perfectly fine alteration.

Dork_Forge
2021-03-11, 03:20 PM
The curious RAW caveat in this deliberation is that there is actually nothing in the infusions description that says an issued command must be verbal at all, or directly delivered by the sound of your voice for that matter, much as is the case with the definition of receiving a command from someone in a real world scenario.

We only know two things, the first of which is that we do not share an innate telepathic bond with the homunculus, and therefore physically speaking, the command must be delivered in a way that the homunculus can perceive, which still does not preclude non-verbal or indirect commands.

The second clue we have, which appears to be completely open to interpretation, is found in the Homunculus's Languages stat, which states that 'The Homunculus understands the languages you speak'. This could imply one of two things, which seems to be impossible to objectively determine even when taking all words verbatim:

1. That the Homunculus only understands any given language when you speak it, yet becomes oblivious to it as soon as you cease speaking, not to mention being unable to comprehend even non-lingual input with its other senses, the latter part actually not being stated regardless. If we choose this, then you are right.

2. That the familiar permanently understands, as part of its creation and imbued in its stat block, any of the officially listed Languages in your own character's sheet

interpretation number 1 is dubious for several reasons - The homunculus, while loyal to you, is a sentient being capable of free will choices wven while you are down, and has an INT of 10, so it is unclear why it wouldn't have the intellectual ability to recognize a language on its own, or furthermore why it wouldn't be able to comprehend structured visual input, which is mandatory in order to act independently in an environment.

If then, we accept option 2, there is no reason to assume that spending a bonus action per some of the examples below would not constitute a command:

1. During combat, the Homunculus is out of hearing range, and you spend a bonus action to shout to your familiar a command to be repeated ahead to the Homunculus in Common. It is still your indirect command and would qualify as such in any real world battlefield or by definition.

2. Using a bonus action to command your familiar with a nonverbal sign, such as a gesture

3. Take indirect commands from your friendly companions, but only so long as you spent your bonus action to issue such a command.

If you think its the sound of my voice that matters and not the bonus action, ask yourself this - If a kenku or mage impostor kidnaps me in my sleep and takes my place, would the impostor be able to command an attack? I think the order of business below is in line with RAW:

1. Give obedient Homunculus a general command as soon as its created to treat all relayed familiar commands as my commands without doubt.

2. Use a bonus action to command my Homunculus by telepathically conveying it through a familiar's voice or gestures.

I don't think there's any ambiguity about the language, if the Homunculus only understood you it wouldn't mention language at all.

I think you're stretching this to make it work, in the real world there's a chain of command, the command itself may be decided higher up, but you're actually being commanded by your immediate superior. Regardless, this is 5e and such a liberal interpretation of command doesn't seem RAW or RAI here.

You're assuming that the Homunculus can follow general commands because of it's intelligence, this is not a rules basis. Animate Object creates constructs and explicitly calls out in the description that you can issue a general command, the Homunculus doesn't do so. Since the AO clause exists, it's reasonable to assume it's stated if it's a thing at all.

If something requires you to command it, that usually means you have to issue either a verbal, or if applicable, telepathic command, this especially makes sense in combat where your homunculus probably won't have time to read the cue cards you gave the Sprite.


As for the initiative, if the DM cheeses it by saying my homunculus and I can never enter initiative due to distance, which is completely idiotic by the way since a combatant can participate from any distance - Does a 1000 feet eldritch blast build never participate? Does a summoner hiding in the next room over?, then you can still cheese it back by starting a punching match with another party member if that's what it takes.

Let's be clear here, this is not DM cheese, the PC is not in the combat, a creature created by the PC is. The PC in your proposal is intentionally at a great distance from events. An Eldritch Blast sniper build is directly interacting with combat, that's not the same thing. Being in the next room (where vocal commands could feasibly be heard) where you can still be attacked by the monsters is not the same thing. The summons comparison is also muddied by summons usually getting their own initiative and being able to defend themselves (left to it's own devices a Homunculus will just dodge if you're not incap'd).


It's a neat concept, but falls heavily in DM ruling territory to be supported.


Steel defender doesn't work as a drone due to size and mobility, and because of that it also doesn't help that it deprives the Homunculus or sprite of opportunities. But choosing Steel Defender for non-stealth, non-range operations is a perfectly fine alteration.

*shrug* it depends on what you're going for with drone, I'm guessing you're going for the DJI style small flying kind and that's a cool theme. If it's a remote combat platform (and the DM has allowed it to function as desired) the Steel Defender offers higher movement speed, higher durability, the ability to protect the Sprite and self heal. Your proposed build is 11 deep in Alchemist, so you could just give the SD Winged Boots (available at 10th).

Renduaz
2021-03-12, 11:37 AM
I don't think there's any ambiguity about the language, if the Homunculus only understood you it wouldn't mention language at all.

I think you're stretching this to make it work, in the real world there's a chain of command, the command itself may be decided higher up, but you're actually being commanded by your immediate superior. Regardless, this is 5e and such a liberal interpretation of command doesn't seem RAW or RAI here.

You're assuming that the Homunculus can follow general commands because of it's intelligence, this is not a rules basis. Animate Object creates constructs and explicitly calls out in the description that you can issue a general command, the Homunculus doesn't do so. Since the AO clause exists, it's reasonable to assume it's stated if it's a thing at all.

If something requires you to command it, that usually means you have to issue either a verbal, or if applicable, telepathic command, this especially makes sense in combat where your homunculus probably won't have time to read the cue cards you gave the Sprite.

Agreed about the Languages, that was also the position I endorsed in support of the relayed command viability, because the RAW would only be invalidated if it were otherwise.

There's a difference between how things are usually done, by players, versus what things usually mean, and 'usually' is not RAW either way, even when it is RAI. We keep coming back to the Rules As Written and allusion to liberal interpretation, so it's important that we keep a tab on the actual wording: "you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action."


Let's break it down step by step. Putting the Initiative problem aside for the time being and assuming I am in it whether by punching match or otherwise - Am I using my bonus action? Yes. Did I give a command? Yes, I gave a command. Did the Homunculus receive my Command via the senses available to it? Yes, the familiar told it in a language it understand which action the master commands it to take.

This is RAW, no more and no less, whereas your objection is RAI - "The Homunculus does not obey the command because the sound waves did not originate from your mouth and therefore you aren't really the one who commanded it", adding stipulations on the basis of perceived RAI that RAW does not care about.

Both me and the familiar verbalized the command, which means I fulfilled my end of the RAW deal. There is no mandate for the Homunculus to receive it directly from the waves of my vocal cords or brain for that matter, so long as it is received.


Let's be clear here, this is not DM cheese, the PC is not in the combat, a creature created by the PC is. The PC in your proposal is intentionally at a great distance from events. An Eldritch Blast sniper build is directly interacting with combat, that's not the same thing. Being in the next room (where vocal commands could feasibly be heard) where you can still be attacked by the monsters is not the same thing. The summons comparison is also muddied by summons usually getting their own initiative and being able to defend themselves (left to it's own devices a Homunculus will just dodge if you're not incap'd).


It's a neat concept, but falls heavily in DM ruling territory to be supported.

Saying 'It's not the same thing' is an arbitrary red line. You're putting caps on initiative based on completely personal gut feelings related to numbr of feet or how 'visceral' a combatant's involvement is. Yes, it is intentional great distance - so is any Eldritch spear, 10macht speedster or long range summoner build.

The determination that Eldritch energy created in my hands from 1000feet away is more 'direct' than cowering behind a hill and sending out your Trickery duplicate or your Animated Objects is subjective. Stating that stuff only works if I am unsuccessful in completely shielding myself from monster attacks, whether by this build, or a Forcecage Duplicity build, or Leomund's Tiny Hut tricks, or a Simulacrum with Gaze of Two Minds, or sending out my Greater Steed or what have you, or even using a familiar to attack from 100 feet away, all personal.


A homunculus becoming independent as soon as I am incap'd is all the more reason why I should be on the initiative order, as I am the one controlling the attacks, even if its from a distance. Ultimately its acceptable for a DM to deem none of these scenarios to warrant initiative, but I'd consider it cheese if it exclusively applies to my minions.

And here's the final challenge when it comes to situations that are supposedly not the same for the reasons listed - Storm of Vengeance has a range of Sight, by design, and progresses by rounds with new effects at the start of your turn. Guess if I intentionally cast it on an evil castle which I can see on the horizon, nothing happens because you never get a turn on the initiative order, right? Using a magical construct from afar is no different.

Dork_Forge
2021-03-13, 02:17 AM
There's a difference between how things are usually done, by players, versus what things usually mean, and 'usually' is not RAW either way, even when it is RAI. We keep coming back to the Rules As Written and allusion to liberal interpretation, so it's important that we keep a tab on the actual wording: "you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action."


Let's break it down step by step. Putting the Initiative problem aside for the time being and assuming I am in it whether by punching match or otherwise - Am I using my bonus action? Yes. Did I give a command? Yes, I gave a command. Did the Homunculus receive my Command via the senses available to it? Yes, the familiar told it in a language it understand which action the master commands it to take.

This is RAW, no more and no less, whereas your objection is RAI - "The Homunculus does not obey the command because the sound waves did not originate from your mouth and therefore you aren't really the one who commanded it", adding stipulations on the basis of perceived RAI that RAW does not care about.

Both me and the familiar verbalized the command, which means I fulfilled my end of the RAW deal. There is no mandate for the Homunculus to receive it directly from the waves of my vocal cords or brain for that matter, so long as it is received.

Passing commands through other creatures is not RAW and entirely open to debate, you commanding it in this way could entirely be interpreted as the familiar commanding it on your behalf. It's not cut and dry like you seem to think it is, and imo isn't even leaning in your favour.

Since you would like more RAW basis for this being in DM territory, the rules imply that talking during combat is an on your turn activity:

Other Activity on your turn (PHB pg. 190)

"...You can communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn..."

The Homunculus explicitly acts on your initiative count after your turn, the familiar acts on it's own turn. Unless your command is to ready an attack, that is not being commanded and resolved in the same turn.

I'm not really sure why you have an issue with such a niche build being DM dependent, most of them are, it's a game where the DM has final say so, the fact they can impower what you want (that doesn't seem RAW or RAI) is a good thing.


Saying 'It's not the same thing' is an arbitrary red line. You're putting caps on initiative based on completely personal gut feelings related to numbr of feet or how 'visceral' a combatant's involvement is. Yes, it is intentional great distance - so is any Eldritch spear, 10macht speedster or long range summoner build.

The DM calls for initiative from participants in the combat. That is the rule. A Warlock blasting from 1000ft away is clearly a participant, they're actively attacking personally.


The determination that Eldritch energy created in my hands from 1000feet away is more 'direct' than cowering behind a hill and sending out your Trickery duplicate or your Animated Objects is subjective. Stating that stuff only works if I am unsuccessful in completely shielding myself from monster attacks, whether by this build, or a Forcecage Duplicity build, or Leomund's Tiny Hut tricks, or a Simulacrum with Gaze of Two Minds, or sending out my Greater Steed or what have you, or even using a familiar to attack from 100 feet away, all personal.


A homunculus becoming independent as soon as I am incap'd is all the more reason why I should be on the initiative order, as I am the one controlling the attacks, even if its from a distance. Ultimately its acceptable for a DM to deem none of these scenarios to warrant initiative, but I'd consider it cheese if it exclusively applies to my minions.

And here's the final challenge when it comes to situations that are supposedly not the same for the reasons listed - Storm of Vengeance has a range of Sight, by design, and progresses by rounds with new effects at the start of your turn. Guess if I intentionally cast it on an evil castle which I can see on the horizon, nothing happens because you never get a turn on the initiative order, right? Using a magical construct from afar is no different.

Just because a creature relies on you to perform certain actions in no way validates you being in the order, the rules give us what would happen if you were not able to issue commands: It would just dodge. Summons a lot of the time explicitly will defend themselves, just being in a hostile situation is enough to proc them into combat.

I've already mentioned that Animate Objects calls out that you can give general commands, it's a hole in your argument, not support there of. I don't even know what you're referring to with Invoke Duplicity since that has a range of 120ft and explicitly relies on your own senses. You can't hide behind a hill, because you don't have line of sight. Being inside something like a Force Cage doesn't make you a noncombatant either, nor does it make sense that it would.

And again here's the problem with all of the summoned things you listed, there's no rule restriction on them like there is the Homunculus. The rules support their indpendence as creatures and a lot of the time tell us how they'd act.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that casting a mass area 9th level spell is participating in combat, that is in no way shape or form the same thing besides being at distance.

You directly casting spells that affect the situation is clearly direct participation. A creature that you created, getting into combat a significant distance from you, that you can't even see or hear is not a direct particpation from you at all.

What you're saying could also apply to this:

Halaster Blackcloak sent a Simulacrum out into the world, 100 miles away this Simulacrum is attacked. The original Halaster, 100 miles away in Undermountain should now roll initiative.


Are you saying that's what you think RAW should happen?

Renduaz
2021-03-13, 04:50 AM
Passing commands through other creatures is not RAW and entirely open to debate, you commanding it in this way could entirely be interpreted as the familiar commanding it on your behalf. It's not cut and dry like you seem to think it is, and imo isn't even leaning in your favour.

Since you would like more RAW basis for this being in DM territory, the rules imply that talking during combat is an on your turn activity:

Other Activity on your turn (PHB pg. 190)

"...You can communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn..."

The Homunculus explicitly acts on your initiative count after your turn, the familiar acts on it's own turn. Unless your command is to ready an attack, that is not being commanded and resolved in the same turn.

I'm not really sure why you have an issue with such a niche build being DM dependent, most of them are, it's a game where the DM has final say so, the fact they can impower what you want (that doesn't seem RAW or RAI) is a good thing.



The DM calls for initiative from participants in the combat. That is the rule. A Warlock blasting from 1000ft away is clearly a participant, they're actively attacking personally.



Just because a creature relies on you to perform certain actions in no way validates you being in the order, the rules give us what would happen if you were not able to issue commands: It would just dodge. Summons a lot of the time explicitly will defend themselves, just being in a hostile situation is enough to proc them into combat.

I've already mentioned that Animate Objects calls out that you can give general commands, it's a hole in your argument, not support there of. I don't even know what you're referring to with Invoke Duplicity since that has a range of 120ft and explicitly relies on your own senses. You can't hide behind a hill, because you don't have line of sight. Being inside something like a Force Cage doesn't make you a noncombatant either, nor does it make sense that it would.

And again here's the problem with all of the summoned things you listed, there's no rule restriction on them like there is the Homunculus. The rules support their indpendence as creatures and a lot of the time tell us how they'd act.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that casting a mass area 9th level spell is participating in combat, that is in no way shape or form the same thing besides being at distance.

You directly casting spells that affect the situation is clearly direct participation. A creature that you created, getting into combat a significant distance from you, that you can't even see or hear is not a direct particpation from you at all.

What you're saying could also apply to this:

Halaster Blackcloak sent a Simulacrum out into the world, 100 miles away this Simulacrum is attacked. The original Halaster, 100 miles away in Undermountain should now roll initiative.


Are you saying that's what you think RAW should happen?

The nature of RAW as opposed to RAI is that you can do whatever you want so long as you followed the letter of the word, without needing a million different clarifications for every specific scenario in the universe as you maintain it does. If RAW tells me I can move on my turn, I don't need RAW to tell me that I can move on a wooden or a stone surface on my turn to realize I can do so.

If it tells me I can issue a command on my turn, without any limitation as to how or how directly it should be received, then I can do so however I please. Insistence on sound waves from my vocal cords or brain signals reaching a magical construct is a RAI view. Because it simply isn't written that a "direct" verbal command is necessary, nor is it part of the Dictionary Definition. I can't explain it any other way, so I guess we'll have to digress.


As for talking during your turn, that is a good point, I was misremembering talking as a free action outside your turn from 3.5, so you could do as you said, but I should also add that RAW does not require your command to be resolved on the same turn or any time limit, only given. A bonus action must be used during your turn, but not neccessarily in the same round.

As for the initiative, frankly I think the misunderstandings here are too big to bridge and I'm just seeing more non-sequitur and subjective opinion about the 'directness' of combat. Just as two examples, the fact that you can't see why the Forcecage example pertains to your previous contention that a creature isn't really a combatant if monsters can't ( supposedly ) attack it or an assumption about the 'directness' of SoV that I do not share. Every DM can start initiative when appropriate, hopefully in a consistent manner, and we'll leave it at that. If a DM won't, you can always start a punching match.

To answer your hypothetical from my perspective - No, because Halaster in your example is not participating in combat either """directly""" or indirectly, and is not able to alter its course in any way, shape, or form, not to mention never knowing that combat started at any point, which is almost equivalent to being continiously Surprised by the opposition. The Simulacrum would continue obeying the last order until down.

If Halaster on the other hand sent out a Planar Bound demon with whom he can communicate telepathically or use an action to perceive though, and is aware of the start of combat, then Halaster would enter initiative and the Simulacrum will act on his turn as long as a new order can be given, if only so that Halaster could decide, at Round 2, 4, or 7, to cast Teleport and close the distance.

Its like the difference between a Drone operator sitting on the chair with the console to direct a strike against armed enemies or navigating AA's and between the drone coasting on autopilot while he's out for coffee. And what if in the midst of operation, enemy spies breach the operator's HQ and distract him from commanding the drone? Initiative would be vital to determine on which turns the drone is still under control and on which turn its drifting aimlessly ecause the operator was just dragged off his chair and must move back.

Dork_Forge
2021-03-13, 04:10 PM
The nature of RAW as opposed to RAI is that you can do whatever you want so long as you followed the letter of the word, without needing a million different clarifications for every specific scenario in the universe as you maintain it does. If RAW tells me I can move on my turn, I don't need RAW to tell me that I can move on a wooden or a stone surface on my turn to realize I can do so.

If it tells me I can issue a command on my turn, without any limitation as to how or how directly it should be received, then I can do so however I please. Insistence on sound waves from my vocal cords or brain signals reaching a magical construct is a RAI view. Because it simply isn't written that a "direct" verbal command is necessary, nor is it part of the Dictionary Definition. I can't explain it any other way, so I guess we'll have to digress.

It's a large jump from your surface example to the command extrapolation.



As for talking during your turn, that is a good point, I was misremembering talking as a free action outside your turn from 3.5, so you could do as you said, but I should also add that RAW does not require your command to be resolved on the same turn or any time limit, only given. A bonus action must be used during your turn, but not neccessarily in the same round.

No matter how you cut this, there will be at least one turn where the Homunculus isn't attacking, and since you're so insistent on the letter of RAW, it probably isn't taking the dodge action either since 'you've still used a bonus action on that turn to give it a command.'


As for the initiative, frankly I think the misunderstandings here are too big to bridge and I'm just seeing more non-sequitur and subjective opinion about the 'directness' of combat. Just as two examples, the fact that you can't see why the Forcecage example pertains to your previous contention that a creature isn't really a combatant if monsters can't ( supposedly ) attack it or an assumption about the 'directness' of SoV that I do not share. Every DM can start initiative when appropriate, hopefully in a consistent manner, and we'll leave it at that. If a DM won't, you can always start a punching match.

If you start a punching match, you have started a combat with a party member, that is not the same combat that your familiar and Homunculus are in.

As for my opinion on the matter being non-sequitur, I obviously don't agree with that and could say the same of yours.


To answer your hypothetical from my perspective - No, because Halaster in your example is not participating in combat either """directly""" or indirectly, and is not able to alter its course in any way, shape, or form, not to mention never knowing that combat started at any point, which is almost equivalent to being continiously Surprised by the opposition. The Simulacrum would continue obeying the last order until down.




If Halaster on the other hand sent out a Planar Bound demon with whom he can communicate telepathically or use an action to perceive though, and is aware of the start of combat, then Halaster would enter initiative and the Simulacrum will act on his turn as long as a new order can be given, if only so that Halaster could decide, at Round 2, 4, or 7, to cast Teleport and close the distance.

Planar Binding doesn't give you the ability to communicate over distance, or perceive through the bound creature's senses, but that aside, you're essentially saying that the difference between being in the combat or not is being in contact with people that are?


Its like the difference between a Drone operator sitting on the chair with the console to direct a strike against armed enemies or navigating AA's and between the drone coasting on autopilot while he's out for coffee. And what if in the midst of operation, enemy spies breach the operator's HQ and distract him from commanding the drone? Initiative would be vital to determine on which turns the drone is still under control and on which turn its drifting aimlessly ecause the operator was just dragged off his chair and must move back.

It isn't a drone is a real life machine, the Homunculus us (as you pointed out) an intelligent creature unto itself. I know the theme you're going for, but a commanding officer giving orders to soldiers on the battlefield from a remote location seems more appropriate.



You think this is RAW and obviously won't be dissauded of such, whilst I don't see it as a player or DM, I hope that your DM rules favourably towards your concept.