BEARhanded barbarian

[MidevalMan]

So puns aside I'm working on making an unarmed barbarian.

So far im looking at a feral Dwarf whirling frenzy lion spirit wolf totem city brawler barbarian with the feral template from Savage Species. Gives claw attack at 1d8 for medium size creatures.

One question is how would (if) die increase to unarmed and natural attacks work from here? Claws and unarmed attacks are listed separately, but say i wanted to use my unarmed as primary an claws as secondary weapons, claws go after BAB at -5 IIRC. Would both attacks use the D8 as per the template damage or am i still looking at d4?

The route im thinking about going so far is Barb 2, Warrior 2 warblade 1. Looking at PrC's im getting a bit rediculous and thinking (in order) FotF 1(3 eventually, just rushing for stacking Con bonus), Deepwarden 2, Bear warrior 1(needed for warshaper), Warshaper 1 (2 if it fits) Frostrager 5.

I plan on going steadfast determination so i really only need str and con and 12 int for combat reflexes (for robillars).

I want to focus unarmed and natural attacks (also looking at ward cestus). Im getting fanged ring and playing arouns with other items that would be useful. neclace of nat attacks, monks belt etc.

While unorthodox, i'm looking at these unarmed bonuses.

1d8 from feral
1d8 (later 1d10 from FotF)
Warshaper - If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger.
Superior unarmed strike
Frostrage - a frostrager's unarmed attacks deal 1d6 / d8 imp frostrage.

So IF these dice stack, my question is how? What unarmed table should i follow for these bonuses?

[Zerryzerry]

So puns aside I'm working on making an unarmed barbarian.

So far im looking at a feral Dwarf whirling frenzy lion spirit wolf totem city brawler barbarian with the feral template from Savage Species. Gives claw attack at 1d8 for medium size creatures.



Sorry, you cannt be both a Lion spirit and a wolf totem barbarian. They both give up Fast movement and you cannot give up it two times.


One question is how would (if) die increase to unarmed and natural attacks work from here? Claws and unarmed attacks are listed separately, but say i wanted to use my unarmed as primary an claws as secondary weapons, claws go after BAB at -5 IIRC. Would both attacks use the D8 as per the template damage or am i still looking at d4?

I highly doubt you can have BOTH unarmed and claws attacks, unless you have one hand and one claw (which kills the City brawler bonuses, since you cannot TWF with only one weapon) or have two pair of arms.



I plan on going steadfast determination so i really only need str and con and 12 int for combat reflexes (for robillars).


What matters INT with Combat Reflexes?

[Saintheart]

What matters INT with Combat Reflexes?

Probably just mixing up Combat Expertise with Combat Reflexes. Maybe he meant DEX 12?

[MidevalMan]

Probably just mixing up Combat Expertise with Combat Reflexes. Maybe he meant DEX 12?

Thanks Saint, that was my mistake.

[RaiKirah]

Sorry, you cannt be both a Lion spirit and a wolf totem barbarian. They both give up Fast movement and you cannot give up it two times.

Actually you can. Lion Spirit Totem gives up Fast Movement, Wolf Totem gives up (Improved) Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense. One of the few Spirit Totem and regular Totem Barbarian combos that works.

[AnimeTheCat]

I highly doubt you can have BOTH unarmed and claws attacks, unless you have one hand and one claw (which kills the City brawler bonuses, since you cannot TWF with only one weapon) or have two pair of arms.
Why can't you kick, knee, elbow, shoulder, or headbutt AND have claws?

[MidevalMan]

From what i've looked up there has been a lot of discussion of whether or not an unarmed attack is natural but not necessarily the other way around. A creature (lycanthrope, feline creatures, etc) can have claws but still hold weapons. The argument could be made that if the creatures uses its fist (not its claws so not its natural attack) it would could be considered an unarmed strike. But I'm fairly sure that would be something left to the DM's descretion.

[Seerow]

While being able to both Unarmed Strike and use Natural Weapons may be a little bit of a grey area, if you are pumping both maybe look at the Beast Strike feat from Dragon Magazine. It lets you basically add your claw damage to any unarmed strikes you make. So if you've got a 1d8 unarmed strike and 3d6 claw, every unarmed strike you make gets to deal 1d8+3d6.

[RaiKirah]

Monk Unarmed Strike specifically calls out being able to use any part of the body to make the attack, thereby unequivocally allowing Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attacks in the same Full Attack. Note this is not the case for regular Unarmed Strikes, which are specifically made with the hands.

[smetzger]

While being able to both Unarmed Strike and use Natural Weapons may be a little bit of a grey area, if you are pumping both maybe look at the Beast Strike feat from Dragon Magazine. It lets you basically add your claw damage to any unarmed strikes you make. So if you've got a 1d8 unarmed strike and 3d6 claw, every unarmed strike you make gets to deal 1d8+3d6.

Yes, I think you would need something like this in order to 'combine or stack' your claw and unarmed damage. Otherwise pick one when attacking, just like switching handheld weapons.

[liquidformat]

Sorry, you cannt be both a Lion spirit and a wolf totem barbarian. They both give up Fast movement and you cannot give up it two times.

as stayed above yes you can, check before you post.


I highly doubt you can have BOTH unarmed and claws attacks, unless you have one hand and one claw (which kills the City brawler bonuses, since you cannot TWF with only one weapon) or have two pair of arms.

There is no issue with unarmed strike and claws as part of a full attack action as unarmed strikes don't have to be with just 'hands', however, beast strike is a great feat to look into to get more bang for your buck.

I am partial to primeval over bear warrior; however, it is a bigger pain to enter due to the feats. Also did you mean fighter when and not warrior?

Some items to look at Beast Claws (pg49 SS), Necklace of Natural Weapons (pg58), Jaws of the Dragon and Claws of the Ripper I think those are both from draconomicon, Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerun pg155)

[Darg]

Monk Unarmed Strike specifically calls out being able to use any part of the body to make the attack, thereby unequivocally allowing Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attacks in the same Full Attack. Note this is not the case for regular Unarmed Strikes, which are specifically made with the hands.


Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of
nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch,
kick, head butt, or other type of attack.

The description of the weapon itself. Creatures can make unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes don't have to be made with hands. Unarmed strikes can be used with claw attacks as part of the same full attack. Without improved unarmed strike, you have to take a -4 penalty to make the damage lethal though.

I would probably take 3 levels of sentinel of bharrai for the at will brown/polar bear transformation and duskblade at first level to qualify.
Duskblade 1/barbarian 3/duskblade 1/SoB 3/Deepwarden 2/Warshaper 5/Frost rager 5
FotF is really restrictive in gameplay thanks to the primal living ability and the con bonus to AC isn't really needed. SoB's brown/polar bear give you +3 higher natural AC, 27 str, 19 con, improved grab, and heals you every time you use the ability. You really only lose the +4 bonus to strength while raging

[liquidformat]

The description of the weapon itself. Creatures can make unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes don't have to be made with hands. Unarmed strikes can be used with claw attacks as part of the same full attack. Without improved unarmed strike, you have to take a -4 penalty to make the damage lethal though.

while you are in the clear to use your claw/paw to make an unarmed strike you aren't in the clear to claim your 'claw' attack is an unarmed strike unless you do have beast strike... never mind I misread yeah you can unarmed strike and claw attack as part of a full attack action.

[Darg]

while you are in the clear to use your claw/paw to make an unarmed strike you aren't in the clear to claim your 'claw' attack is an unarmed strike unless you do have beast strike... never mind I misread yeah you can unarmed strike and claw attack as part of a full attack action.

It helps that many animals have claws on their feet too.

[MidevalMan]

Does anyone happen to know if or how the dice would stack from the classes?

1d8 from feral
1d8 (later 1d10 from FotF)
Warshaper - If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger.
Superior unarmed strike
Frostrage - a frostrager's unarmed attacks deal 1d6 / d8 imp frostrage.

[liquidformat]

Does anyone happen to know if or how the dice would stack from the classes?

1d8 from feral
1d8 (later 1d10 from FotF)
Warshaper - If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger.
Superior unarmed strike
Frostrage - a frostrager's unarmed attacks deal 1d6 / d8 imp frostrage.

So there is a bit of a question whether frostrager frostrage and warshaper morphic weapons would actually stack since they are both 'size' increases. I lean towards they won't but that is up to your DM since even though both are 'size' increases they achieve the increase in different ways so they might stack. honestly I think you would be better off scrapping bear warrior and warshaper and look at something like Thayan Gladiator instead.

The order in which you gain each feature is rather important to how much US damage you will actually do. Note that unless your US is already 1d8 it will be bumped to 1d8 by FotF, FotF doesn't give a direct increase to your affective monk level for determining your UAS damage... Also in this case Superior unarmed strike is a bit screwy since you don't already have monk damage progression but have multiple sources that are increasing your US damage.

[MidevalMan]

So there is a bit of a question whether frostrager frostrage and warshaper morphic weapons would actually stack since they are both 'size' increases. I lean towards they won't but that is up to your DM since even though both are 'size' increases they achieve the increase in different ways so they might stack. honestly I think you would be better off scrapping bear warrior and warshaper and look at something like Thayan Gladiator instead.

Thanks for the feedback. I know magical increases dont generally stack. My origional idea was to go barb 1 fighter 4 deewarden, frostrager, runescarred berzerker because they get a pretty decent spell list and being able to drop an antimagic zone on myself and beat everything to death sounded funny.

I've also looked at Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries. Thayan looks really good for focusing on natural weapons, could be a lot of fun. Thanks for the help everyone, much appreciated. :smallsmile:

[liquidformat]

Thanks for the feedback. I know magical increases dont generally stack. My origional idea was to go barb 1 fighter 4 deewarden, frostrager, runescarred berzerker because they get a pretty decent spell list and being able to drop an antimagic zone on myself and beat everything to death sounded funny.

I've also looked at Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries. Thayan looks really good for focusing on natural weapons, could be a lot of fun. Thanks for the help everyone, much appreciated. :smallsmile:

yeah I have a game going right now where I am playing an ambush drake FotF Thayan Gladiator and its a blast

[Gorthawar]

Just out of curiosity. How do you play the combination of whirling frenzy and bear warrior? Do you get 4 con less? Do you lose the extra attack, ac and bonus for reflex and go back to the normal -2 ac and +2 will? Anything else?

[Darg]

Just out of curiosity. How do you play the combination of whirling frenzy and bear warrior? Do you get 4 con less? Do you lose the extra attack, ac and bonus for reflex and go back to the normal -2 ac and +2 will? Anything else?

I can't believe I missed the whirling frenzy the OP mentioned. Yeah, bear warrior says it replaces the benefits of your normal rage.

[MidevalMan]

I can't believe I missed the whirling frenzy the OP mentioned. Yeah, bear warrior says it replaces the benefits of your normal rage.

Bear warrior doesnt change the rage of the character, only changes the stats the character gets during a rage.

CWar page 16

The bear warrior retains the normal +2 bonus on Will saves and —2 penalty to Armor Class while raging, but the ability score bonuses granted by rage or frenzy are replaced by Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution bonuses appropriate to the bear form taken (see below). As normal for polymorph, the bear warrior gains the bear form's physical qualities (including size, movement, natural armor bonus, natural weapons, space, and reach), as well as any extra ordinary special attacks possessed by the form (such as improved grab in the brown bear or dire bear form). The transformation lasts for the duration of the rage or frenzy.

[Gorthawar]

Bear warrior doesnt change the rage of the character, only changes the stats the character gets during a rage.

CWar page 16

The bear warrior retains the normal +2 bonus on Will saves and —2 penalty to Armor Class while raging, but the ability score bonuses granted by rage or frenzy are replaced by Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution bonuses appropriate to the bear form taken (see below). As normal for polymorph, the bear warrior gains the bear form's physical qualities (including size, movement, natural armor bonus, natural weapons, space, and reach), as well as any extra ordinary special attacks possessed by the form (such as improved grab in the brown bear or dire bear form). The transformation lasts for the duration of the rage or frenzy.

That's a generous interpretation of the highlighted section but if your table plays it that way all the better for you. I would as a minimum reduce the con bonus from bear warrior by 4 in line with the whirling frenzy changes for my players but was wondering about other options or rules interpretation.

[liquidformat]

That's a generous interpretation of the highlighted section but if your table plays it that way all the better for you. I would as a minimum reduce the con bonus from bear warrior by 4 in line with the whirling frenzy changes for my players but was wondering about other options or rules interpretation.

I disagree it is literally giving you the ability score modifiers for a black bear (Str 19-11=8, Dex 13-11=2, Con 15-11=4) If it increased your stats by 12 str, 2 dex, 8 con for a black bear I would be right there with you that you need to drop down your str and con mods but that isn't what it does.

[MidevalMan]

I disagree it is literally giving you the ability score modifiers for a black bear (Str 19-11=8, Dex 13-11=2, Con 15-11=4) If it increased your stats by 12 str, 2 dex, 8 con for a black bear I would be right there with you that you need to drop down your str and con mods but that isn't what it does.

While it is giving you the stats from the aminal, these are the respective stats given in brown, black, and dire forms. (pg 16-17)

Any bear warrior can assume the form of a black bear. While in black bear form, he gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Dexterity, and a +4 bonus to Constitution.

At 5th level, a bear warrior can choose between black and brown bear forms. While in brown bear form, he gains a +16 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Dexterity, and a +8 bonus to Constitution.

At 10th level, a bear warrior can choose between black, brown, and dire bear forms. While in dire bear form, he gains a +20 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Dexterity, and a +8 bonus to Constitution.