Xykon doesn't need RC anymore (even if he didn't realize it, yet)

[Dr.Zero]

Ok, so Xykon wants the Gate to dominate the world.
He thinks he needs RC spell to, somehow, I don't know, control the Snarl to destroy some towns as example, Godzilla style, to prove his power. Or something similar.
The reality is that if he manages to control the Gate, he can threaten to destroy it, forcing the Gods to destroy the world, and getting safe in the astral plane (ready to dominate the next world, as soon as it appears)[1].

In a normal situation, people wouldn't necessarily believe that such a Gate (and its destruction) are real.
But right now the fact that this is a reality is known by a lot of influential people: a decently powerful (even if landless) king, as Hinjo; all the high priests of the world; the rulers of a good block of a whole continent (Tarquin and his teammates); the ruler of Gobbotopia.

Which means that he can easily enough get what he wants to get from this deal (which, I don't know what it is, aside the kick of being called "king of the kings") without RC.

He doesn't know that, at least not completely: he knows about Hinjo and Jirix knowing, but not about all the high priests of the world and not about Tarquin and his team . But if he manages to capture a member of the OOTS, or even one of the two paladins (which presumably have been informed by the OOTS about the Godsmoot) and learn these facts, he might easily get rid of RC without losing anything.

[1] One might argue that such a threat would make him the target of every possible hero party in the world. Aside that he seems to like the idea (see what he proposed to Roy when they fought) to fight powerful heroes, the same would be true if he controlled the Snarl. So no big difference there.

[Fyraltari]

Xykon's soul isn't in the Astral Plane. Even if he believes his phylactery to be, his soul is currently within his body and will only migrate to the phylactery upon that body's destruction. This was a minor plot point in SoD. If the Snarl gets loose, he's in as much danger as everybody else.

[hroþila]

If Xykon plane shifts, he can't destroy the last Gate and the gods don't need to destroy the world.
If Xykon destroys the last Gate, it's perfectly possible that the Snarl gets out and he gets unmade first.
It's not at all clear that it's possible to survive from one world to the next. The waiting period between worlds might be arbitrarily long, and we don't know that the gods don't have a protocol to hunt down and destroy any non-outsiders who hid in between worlds.
And even if the plan does succeed, it sounds all kinds of boring for Xykon.

[Dr.Zero]

Xykon's soul isn't in the Astral Plane. Even if he believes his phylactery to be, his soul is currently within his body and will only migrate to the phylactery upon that body's destruction. This was a minor plot point in SoD. If the Snarl gets loose, he's in as much danger as everybody else.

He doesn't know that. But, even more, no one else knows that. And it's unlikely that, once the knowledge about the danger of destroying the Gate spreads, anyone will be like: "Sure, destroy it, who cares?" so the Snarl will never get free.

[Fyraltari]

He doesn't know that. But, even more, no one else knows that.
Yes he does. He's the one who explains it in the second café scene.

And it's unlikely that, once the knowledge about the danger of destroying the Gate spreads, anyone will be like: "Sure, destroy it, who cares?" so the Snarl will never get free.
"Let me rule the world or I kill everybody me included" is a weak bluff.

[Dr.Zero]

If Xykon plane shifts, he can't destroy the last Gate and the gods don't need to destroy the world.
If Xykon destroys the last Gate, it's perfectly possible that the Snarl gets out and he gets unmade first.
It's not at all clear that it's possible to survive from one world to the next. The waiting period between worlds might be arbitrarily long, and we don't know that the gods don't have a protocol to hunt down and destroy any non-outsiders who hid in between worlds.
And even if the plan does succeed, it sounds all kinds of boring for Xykon.

The first points aren't a problem: delayed spells.
The rest, again, is like assuming the world, knowing of the threat, will be like: "Ok, destroy it, who cares? We will see if you won't get bored to (more)death all alone out there!"
Which is strongly unlikely.

[Dr.Zero]

Yes he does. He's the one who explains it in the second café scene.


I might have lost you. I'm talking about the fact that his phylathing isn't in the astral plane: he doesn't know that.
What are you talking about?



"Let me rule the world or I kill everybody me included" is a weak bluff.

Aside that we have plenty of real life examples to prove that it is not such a weak bluff, why the rules of the world would assume he cannot plane shift, again?

[hroþila]

The first points aren't a problem: delayed spells.
The rest, again, is like assuming the world, knowing of the threat, will be like: "Ok, destroy it, who cares? We will see if you won't get bored to (more)death all alone out there!"
Which is strongly unlikely.
Not a D&D player, so I concede on the first two.
As for the other point, I thought the idea was to force the gods to destroy the world so he could rule the next one? Or are you saying that Xykon could threaten the inhabitants of the current world with destroying the gate if they don't submit to him?

[Dr.Zero]

Not a D&D player, so I concede on the first two.
As for the other point, I thought the idea was to force the gods to destroy the world so he could rule the next one? Or are you saying that Xykon could threaten the inhabitants of the current world with destroying the gate if they don't submit to him?

The second.
If he manages to get his hands on the gate, he has a big world destroying bomb in his hands.
The only limit of such an item is that he can't prove to have it without destroying the world (differently from having a big Godzilla-Snarl which can destroy single towns as proof of power).
But if enough influential people know about the Gate (and right now there are), he doesn't need to prove anything anymore.

In the extreme, if he is going to lose for some reason, he can make it explode nonetheless (equivalent to unleash the Snarl completely free) and get in a safe place. As safety plan, not as main plan.

[KorvinStarmast]

And even if the plan does succeed, it sounds all kinds of boring for Xykon. And that, right there, (I italicized that) argues against him taking that course of action if he remains more or less consistent with who he has become.

[Dr.Zero]

And that, right there, (I italicized that) argues against him taking that course of action if he remains more or less consistent with who he has become.


On the other hand, becoming ruler of the world threatening to use a bomb or threatening to use Godzilla doesn't seem different at all, regarding boredom.
(Aside, of course, the awesome sight of Godzilla in action)

[Fyraltari]

I might have lost you. I'm talking about the fact that his phylathing isn't in the astral plane: he doesn't know that.
What are you talking about?
I thought I was pretty clear:

Xykon's soul isn't in the Astral Plane. Even if he believes his phylactery to be, his soul is currently within his body and will only migrate to the phylactery upon that body's destruction. This was a minor plot point in SoD. If the Snarl gets loose, he's in as much danger as everybody else.



Aside that we have plenty of real life examples to prove that it is not such a weak bluff, why the rules of the world would assume he cannot plane shift, again?
Xykon's not suicidal. He made that pretty clear to Vaarsuvius.
He could. If he's fast enough. Which he doesn't he is. If your plan hinges on being faster than a being who annihilated an entire pantheon in a single round of combat, it's a bad plan.

[Dr.Zero]

I thought I was pretty clear:




Xykon's not suicidal. He made that pretty clear to Vaarsuvius.
He could. If he's fast enough. Which he doesn't he is. If your plan hinges on being faster than a being who annihilated an entire pantheon in a single round of combat, it's a bad plan.

He doesn't need to be fast. There are delayed spells. This i pracitally a time bomb (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/delayedBlastFireball.htm). and if one wants better, as an epic sorcerer he can research better.
(Leaving aides that the "he isn't sucidial" implies that the world will be like: "Huh. Let's see if he really makes it explode.")

[wumpus]

I might have lost you. I'm talking about the fact that his phylathing isn't in the astral plane: he doesn't know that.
What are you talking about?



Aside that we have plenty of real life examples to prove that it is not such a weak bluff, why the rules of the world would assume he cannot plane shift, again?

Why would the astral plane survive the gods' destruction of "the world"? Is it full of non-stick-figure life? If so, I'd expect it to survive. If not, it came in with the gods decision to go with a "RPG cliche world with stick figures" and can be assumed to be lost when they make the next one.

[Heksefatter]

Xykon doesn't have the needed information:

1) He doesn't know that the gods are considering destroying the world.

2) He doesn't know that the high priests know.

3) He almost certainly doesn't know who Hinjo is.

4) He doesn't know enough about how the world works to be sure that he could destroy the gate and then escape to the astral plane. For all he knows, the Snarl can target the astral plane as well.


Assuming that he knew this, I can't even see the kings of the world being capable of coordinating submission to Xykon.

And even if they could, it is highly plausible that the gods would decide: "Ok, an insane lich prone to violent mood swings now has the ability to release the snarl at any moment. Let's cut our loses and whack the world on our terms."

In short, Xykon doesn't have the information needed to carry out this suggestion, which likely wouldn't work even if he did.

[BloodSquirrel]

Aside that we have plenty of real life examples to prove that it is not such a weak bluff,

If by "plenty of real-life examples" you mean "The Cold War", then, actually, no, it turned out that both sides repeatedly decided against calling each other's bluffs and avoided direction conflict in favor of proxy wars.

[dancrilis]

I am pretty sure that Xykon knows that he is effectively singularly powerful enough to make a solid go at conquering the world the old fashioned way - he doesn't really need the plan at all, and Jirix would likely be comfortable helping him do so (particularly if the alternative is an angry Xykon in Gobbotopia), assuming that Xykon wants the army etc.

Xykon follows the plan (and by extension Redcloak) because he is interested in it not because he needs it.

[BloodSquirrel]

I am pretty sure that Xykon knows that he is effectively singularly powerful enough to make a solid go at conquering the world the old fashioned way - he doesn't really need the plan at all, and Jirix would likely be comfortable helping him do so (particularly if the alternative is an angry Xykon in Gobbotopia), assuming that Xykon wants the army etc.

Xykon follows the plan (and by extension Redcloak) because he is interested in it not because he needs it.

Keep in mind that even "conquering the world" isn't a goal that Xykon is set on. Xykon just needs an evil plot to spend his time working on because he's immortal and the only thing that he can enjoy anymore is hurting people. It's why he doesn't mind screwing around in the monster hallow right now- he isn't desperate to reach the end goal.

If anything, the biggest obstacle between Xykon and world domination is that Xykon is sufficiently disinterested enough in actually ruling or administering anything that without a Redcloak around to do all of the boring parts "world conquest" would just devolve into random destruction of any forces that oppose him.

[Peelee]

It's not at all clear that it's possible to survive from one world to the next. The waiting period between worlds might be arbitrarily long, and we don't know that the gods don't have a protocol to hunt down and destroy any non-outsiders who hid in between worlds.

Further, there are creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) in the Monster Manual whose sole purpose and reason for existence is hunting down those who violate the laws of the universe. Such as hiding out while reality itself is recreated, I would imagine.

[Goblin_Priest]

Further, there are creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) in the Monster Manual whose sole purpose and reason for existence is hunting down those who violate the laws of the universe. Such as hiding out while reality itself is recreated, I would imagine.

What's a CR15 monster supposed to achieve?

Even if you scaled it to 42 HD... I'm not convinced it would pose much of a menace to Xykon.

[Peelee]

What's a CR15 monster supposed to achieve?

In high enough numbers, whatever the hell it wants to.

[Good Coyote]

Why would the astral plane survive the gods' destruction of "the world"? Is it full of non-stick-figure life? If so, I'd expect it to survive. If not, it came in with the gods decision to go with a "RPG cliche world with stick figures" and can be assumed to be lost when they make the next one.

The astral plane (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) contains all of the gods' monuments to past worlds. (Shown in the following comic, but that's the one that better explains what the astral plane is.)

The outer planes contain stick figure outsiders, who we know survive from one world to the next. But they go a little nuts if they don't get their minds wiped (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html), which might have something to do with being reshaped to fit the next expression of reality. (Which the gods likely also do to themselves. Or maybe not, maybe the gods are fundamentally stick figure and can create only stick figure worlds.)

Since the gods have to wipe the minds of every single outsider, they would likely discover anyone else hiding out. However, they have no urgent need to do so. They probably do that at the end of the waiting period between worlds, when they're ready to start creating again. Not immediately at the end of the world.

So it's not a path to immortality, but a non-lich might be able to live out their natural lifespan before the gods start resetting and trap the Snarl. And honestly even a lich might find a place in the service to an evil god or something.


EDIT: The worst thing that would happen is to end up facing normal death, and go on to your designated afterlife. Those are not destroyed immediately since they are the source of the gods' soul-power, though they will also probably be reshaped at some point for the new crop of incoming mortals.

This is fine for most people, since that's where they're headed anyway and paradise (or "a neutral location which mirrors your preference for Chaos, Order or Balance") is pretty good as an alternative to "not existing at all." However, Xykon did have that speech about "anything to avoid the big fire below." He's less likely to risk being sent to his normal designated afterlife, so he's unlikely to do anything that would end this world and blanketly annoy all gods, including Evil ones.

[Clistenes]

Xykon's not suicidal. He made that pretty clear to Vaarsuvius.
He could. If he's fast enough. Which he doesn't he is. If your plan hinges on being faster than a being who annihilated an entire pantheon in a single round of combat, it's a bad plan.

Xykon doesn't need to be fast: He can leave an undead minion behind to destroy the Gate after he Plane Shifts to safety.

[Ruck]

Ok, so Xykon wants the Gate to dominate the world.
He thinks he needs RC spell to, somehow, I don't know, control the Snarl to destroy some towns as example, Godzilla style, to prove his power. Or something similar.
The reality is that if he manages to control the Gate, he can threaten to destroy it, forcing the Gods to destroy the world, and getting safe in the astral plane (ready to dominate the next world, as soon as it appears)[1].

How does he control the Gate without the ritual? Just finding it and hanging out deep inside the dungeon all of the time?


Why would the astral plane survive the gods' destruction of "the world"? Is it full of non-stick-figure life? If so, I'd expect it to survive. If not, it came in with the gods decision to go with a "RPG cliche world with stick figures" and can be assumed to be lost when they make the next one.

"the world" is the Material Plane.

[dps]

I thought the idea was to force the gods to destroy the world so he could rule the next one? Or are you saying that Xykon could threaten the inhabitants of the current world with destroying the gate if they don't submit to him?

Forcing the gods to destroy the current world in order to rule in the next one is Hel's plan, not Xykon's. Xykon thinks the ritual is essentially a targeting mechanism for the Gates, which he can use to harness the Snarl as a WMD to help him conquer the world.

[understatement]

How does he control the Gate without the ritual? Just finding it and hanging out deep inside the dungeon all of the time?
.

I'm seconding this as well. As far as the comic has told us, the ritual explicitly goes to the Dark One, and only the Dark One (or whatever chosen god) can move the Gate.

Xykon hasn't shown that power, or any deep understanding of divinity/astral-material plane knowledge/etc.

[ijuinkun]

Forcing the gods to destroy the current world in order to rule in the next one is Hel's plan, not Xykon's. Xykon thinks the ritual is essentially a targeting mechanism for the Gates, which he can use to harness the Snarl as a WMD to help him conquer the world.

It is a targeting mechanism, but it gives control to The Dark One rather than Xykon, and once the Snarl is released, there's no restraining it again until the next world is constructed to imprison it anew.

[hroþila]

Forcing the gods to destroy the current world in order to rule in the next one is Hel's plan, not Xykon's. Xykon thinks the ritual is essentially a targeting mechanism for the Gates, which he can use to harness the Snarl as a WMD to help him conquer the world.
I know, I meant the plan as in Dr.Zero's suggestion.

[Metastachydium]

Two things:
1. Xykon never actually needed Redcloak – it was the other way around, he just doesn't know this.
2. Although Big Purple could help permanently solve the Snarl problem, there's a onne too slim chance that the gods will simply pull the plug if he gains control of the last Gate. What exactly makes you think that the gods would care about lil' Bony Bastard's threats? Four Rifts are already exposed. If some guy starts advertising how he'll expose the fifth unless he's elected president for life, the gods will simply pull the plug, and even if Xykon manages to Plane Shift away, there's the thing that his phylactery will get destroyed. All the gods will have to do is to send a legion of nasty outsiders with +5 warhammers after him and he's toast.

[Dr.Zero]

Some replies.

1) The Gods will destroy the world if Xykon wins the Gate
Maybe I missed something, but I don't know why everyone is so sure that the Gods will destroy the world if the Gate ends up in Xykon's hands.
While being it in the hands of Serini, would be more acceptable. Or being in custody of the Order.
At the very least, we know that, to decide what to do, as long as the Snarl is not really unleashed, they need to call a Godsmoot.

2) The Gods will destroy the world if RC starts the ritual
Again, for all we know about the Gods, that would require another Godsmoot. But let's say that indeed they will vote for destruction instead to try to find a deal with the DO.
But my whole point is that, if Xykon realizes RC isn't of any help to him anymore, he might simply get rid of RC so no ritual will ever begin.

3) Xykon will be killed in the astral plane by the Gods
This implies that he will destroy the world, so that the world will be like: "Sure, go ahead, destroy the world and plane shift. We trust you'll get properly punished!"
Aside that unlikely outcome, he MIGHT still destroy the world, but that is as likely as him being near to be defeated by a bunch of heroes, when he has little to lose anyway.
(Even more, the snack survivors would prove that creature, and maybe their descendants, can survive between a world and another)

4) Xykon will hang around the gate the whole time?
I don't see why. He will likely build his throne room there. With alarms and whatnot. He is able to do that, as we know.
Moving aorund the world doing his stuff, and then return there to rest or when needed (ie: a bunch of heroes teleport near there and set off the alarms).

5) Xykon will get bored.
I agree. It will happen anyway though.

[Kelenius]

I don't think gods would care much about Xykon threatening to destroy the gate. It's just Redcloak's ritual that's concerning them.

[Metastachydium]

Some replies.

1) The Gods will destroy the world if Xykon wins the Gate
Maybe I missed something, but I don't know why everyone is so sure that the Gods will destroy the world if the Gate ends up in Xykon's hands.
While being it in the hands of Serini, would be more acceptable. Or being in custody of the Order.
At the very least, we know that, to decide what to do, as long as the Snarl is not really unleashed, they need to call a Godsmoot.

2) The Gods will destroy the world if RC starts the ritual
Again, for all we know about the Gods, that would require another Godsmoot. But let's say that indeed they will vote for destruction instead to try to find a deal with the DO.
But my whole point is that, if Xykon realizes RC isn't of any help to him anymore, he might simply get rid of RC so no ritual will ever begin.

3) Xykon will be killed in the astral plane by the Gods
This implies that he will destroy the world, so that the world will be like: "Sure, go ahead, destroy the world and plane shift. We trust you'll get properly punished!"
Aside that unlikely outcome, he MIGHT still destroy the world, but that is as likely as him being near to be defeated by a bunch of heroes, when he has little to lose anyway.
(Even more, the snack survivors would prove that creature, and maybe their descendants, can survive between a world and another)

4) Xykon will hang around the gate the whole time?
I don't see why. He will likely build his throne room there. With alarms and whatnot. He is able to do that, as we know.
Moving aorund the world doing his stuff, and then return there to rest or when needed (ie: a bunch of heroes teleport near there and set off the alarms).

5) Xykon will get bored.
I agree. It will happen anyway though.

There's two options, really, if Xykon gets hold of the Gate and removes Redcloak from the picture:
1. he starts making threats, revealing the existence of the Gate and the Snarl to everyone left and right, while emphasizing he's willing to destroy it if he's not elected president for life. In this case, the gods will probably either make arrangements to remove him from the picture or they destroy the world to prevent the Snarl from escaping. Either way, Xykon has little to gain from this.
2. Xykon simply destroys the Gate without a warning. He doesn't get to rule it, and the gods will hold a grudge against him even if he escapes. In the best case, he'll end up on the Astral Plane all alone and it'll bore himself into the ground.
Xykon can't really win here, and he can't really get to rule the world whatever he does with the Gate.

[Goblin_Priest]

In high enough numbers, whatever the hell it wants to.

Per the book, though:


Organization: Solitary

[Peelee]

Per the book, though:

And? Comic follows RAW until it doesn't, which is not infrequent, and the author has more than once said "despite it not being in the rules it works this way in the comics because why not, I don't want to think about it more than necessary".

Army of inevitable is certainly one way for those who escaped to the outer planes (such as Julio Scoundrèl, as a quick example) to get got before making the new world. That it's marginally against RAW does not terribly concern me. Or a Super Inevitable which is kind of like Inevitable but stronger in all the ways that matter to take down Xykon in this hypothetical scenario which will never happen anyway. It doesn't matter regardless and that cludge solves the theoretical problem so I'm cool with asserting it and calling it a day.

[Ruck]

4) Xykon will hang around the gate the whole time?
I don't see why. He will likely build his throne room there. With alarms and whatnot. He is able to do that, as we know.
Moving aorund the world doing his stuff, and then return there to rest or when needed (ie: a bunch of heroes teleport near there and set off the alarms).

But my main question is, how does Xykon "control the gate" without the ritual? (Which also doesn't let him control the gate, but he thinks it does.)

[Dr.Zero]

But my main question is, how does Xykon "control the gate" without the ritual? (Which also doesn't let him control the gate, but he thinks it does.)

Building a fortress around it, like with his phylathing.
He only needs a way to be the only one to be able to access to it.
That's the whole control he needs, like a terrorist (it was that what I meant, not the Cold War, btw) only needs a way to make the nitro going kaboom.

[BloodSquirrel]

And? Comic follows RAW until it doesn't, which is not infrequent, and the author has more than once said "despite it not being in the rules it works this way in the comics because why not, I don't want to think about it more than necessary".

More importantly, do we have any reason to think that the Gods themselves won't just do it? They've got rules that prevent them from interfering with mortals because they don't want to create another snarl. Xykon releasing the snarl is quite probably going to make himself an exception to those rules.

"So, before we create a new world, I propose that the destroy the lich who knows about the snarl, released it the last time, and might try to do it again one day? All in favor?"

[Good Coyote]

Per the book, though:

They can just send them one at a time. :smalltongue:

Single file, to hide their numbers.

[Peelee]

More importantly, do we have any reason to think that the Gods themselves won't just do it? They've got rules that prevent them from interfering with mortals because they don't want to create another snarl. Xykon releasing the snarl is quite probably going to make himself an exception to those rules.

"So, before we create a new world, I propose that the destroy the lich who knows about the snarl, released it the last time, and might try to do it again one day? All in favor?"

Fair. I just hadn't thought of that.

[Dr.Zero]

More importantly, do we have any reason to think that the Gods themselves won't just do it? They've got rules that prevent them from interfering with mortals because they don't want to create another snarl. Xykon releasing the snarl is quite probably going to make himself an exception to those rules.

"So, before we create a new world, I propose that the destroy the lich who knows about the snarl, released it the last time, and might try to do it again one day? All in favor?"

Maybe.
Or maybe, they could decide to destroy Xykon and RC at some point after they targeted the first Gate.
We know they have rule to not do so, X & RC doesn't and didn't. Did that stop them?

Why that hipothetic[1] danger would change anything?

[1] I like to underline, again, that this danger will become real ONLY if either the people of the world will be like: "Sure, destroy us. Who cares?" or if a bunch of heroes is close to vanquishing him, so much to force him to play his last card. In the latter case being sent in hell by some heroes or by the gods doesn't seem like a big difference, anyway.

[Ruck]

Building a fortress around it, like with his phylathing.
He only needs a way to be the only one to be able to access to it.
That's the whole control he needs, like a terrorist (it was that what I meant, not the Cold War, btw) only needs a way to make the nitro going kaboom.

OK... setting aside the part about the phylactery because how that works really has nothing to do with how this would work, let me see if I'm understanding you right. You're saying that Xykon, without Redcloak, can find the gate and barricade it in such a way that he can use the threat of destroying it to get what he wants?

[BloodSquirrel]

Maybe.
Or maybe, they could decide to destroy Xykon and RC at some point after they targeted the first Gate.

They could have also called a Godsmoot to destroy the world after Xykon and Redcloak blew up the first gate, but they waited until one gate was left to do that.

The degree to which the gods are willing to act is proportional to how bad things get. They're currently stuck on a tie, and as long as the gods have conflicting agendas, they have to keep playing by the rules or risk creating a snarl. Once the current world is destroyed, the rules are back up for negotiating and nobody will have an interest in keeping Xykon around.


I like to underline, again, that this danger will become real ONLY if either the people of the world will be like: "Sure, destroy us. Who cares?" or if a bunch of heroes is close to vanquishing him, so much to force him to play his last card. In the latter case being sent in hell by some heroes or by the gods doesn't seem like a big difference, anyway.

As I pointed out last time you raised this point, the only real world data we have for "Do what I say or I blow up the whole world, myself included" is the Cold War, and it settled on "Nuclear powers avoid direct warfare with each other". It's a good defensive position, because it means that people have to worry about pushing you to the point where you have nothing to lose, but it's a lousy bluff for trying to get the whole world to accept you as their ruler.

[Goblin_Priest]

As I pointed out last time you raised this point, the only real world data we have for "Do what I say or I blow up the whole world, myself included" is the Cold War, and it settled on "Nuclear powers avoid direct warfare with each other". It's a good defensive position, because it means that people have to worry about pushing you to the point where you have nothing to lose, but it's a lousy bluff for trying to get the whole world to accept you as their ruler.

We came close a number of times, though. And both parties had significant players willing to take those risks. Plus the risks associated with nukes following major regime changes, such as following the soviet break-up.

Just because MAD worked so far, doesn't make it infallible.

Add the fact that this world has a ton of actors who don't live on the material plane to begin with... and the fact that characters know for a fact that the afterlife exists...

I wouldn't count on MAD.

[BloodSquirrel]

We came close a number of times, though. And both parties had significant players willing to take those risks. Plus the risks associated with nukes following major regime changes, such as following the soviet break-up.

None of those times involved one player making aggressive demands of the other, however.



Add the fact that this world has a ton of actors who don't live on the material plane to begin with... and the fact that characters know for a fact that the afterlife exists...


This would make "Do what I want or I blow up the world" even less likely to work.

[Dr.Zero]

OK... setting aside the part about the phylactery because how that works really has nothing to do with how this would work, let me see if I'm understanding you right. You're saying that Xykon, without Redcloak, can find the gate and barricade it in such a way that he can use the threat of destroying it to get what he wants?

Exactly.

The plan how X thinks it is now: "I, Xykon, will get the gate and, with the help of RC, execute a ritual which will unleash a terrible monster which I can use to threaten the inhabitants of this world to get what I want."

The plan how it could be: "I, Xykon, will get the gate and, with the help of RC, execute a ritual which will unleash a terrible monster which I can use to threaten the inhabitants of this world to get what I want."

At the start such a threat was impossible to use, because very few knew of the danger represented by the destruction of the Gates and, being the destruction of the Gate a single use device, he couldn't prove to have anything in his hands.

Now at least all the high priests of all the churches in the world know about it (as soon as the Godsmoot is over), together with the Vector Legion and some others rulers (Hinjo, Jirix).



They could have also called a Godsmoot to destroy the world after Xykon and Redcloak blew up the first gate, but they waited until one gate was left to do that.

But X and RC didn't know what the Gods wanted. So for them the danger of being smite should have existed anyway. They didn't care
Even more, I can add that the whole (fake) ritual, which would give a God-killing abomination in the hands of Xykon (who could use it against the same Gods) is much more dangerous for the Gods than simply threatening to destroy the Gate. So if X didn't fear to be smite getting control of the Snarl, he has no reasons to fear to be smite about the destruction of the Gate. If anything he has less reasons to think the Gods will smite him.



As I pointed out last time you raised this point, the only real world data we have for "Do what I say or I blow up the whole world, myself included" is the Cold War, and it settled on "Nuclear powers avoid direct warfare with each other". It's a good defensive position, because it means that people have to worry about pushing you to the point where you have nothing to lose, but it's a lousy bluff for trying to get the whole world to accept you as their ruler.

And, again, I was talking about terrorists, not Cold War.
Anyway, even with Cold War, you must subtract from the equation the "mutual destruction". Xykon will be able to esape.

[BloodSquirrel]

But X and RC didn't know what the Gods wanted. So for them the danger of being smite should have existed anyway. They didn't care
Even more, I can add that the whole (fake) ritual, which would give a God-killing abomination in the hands of Xykon (who could use it against the same Gods) is much more dangerous for the Gods than simply threatening to destroy the Gate. So if X didn't fear to be smite getting control of the Snarl, he has no reasons to fear to be smite about the destruction of the Gate. If anything he has less reasons to think the Gods will smite him.


The Order of the Stick, however does know how the gods feel about this, and seeing as how the Godsmoot has now happened, Xykon is a sending spell away from knowing exactly how close the gods are to getting off their asses and doing something. Also, the previous plan, as far as Xykon knew, didn't involve blowing up the world. He'll be escalating the stakes far beyond what he originally thought they were. That's plenty good reason to think that "Gee, maybe I might be in for more divine wrath than I was counting on.



And, again, I was talking about terrorists, not Cold War.
Anyway, even with Cold War, you must subtract from the equation the "mutual destruction". Xykon will be able to esape.

The phrase that comes to mind here is "We don't negotiate with terrorists". Not that any terrorist has been in any remotely comparable situation, so I really have no idea what you're trying to use as an example here.

And Xykon escaping doesn't change much. He's not the only person who can plane shift, so it's not going to work as a threat to

[Dr.Zero]

The Order of the Stick, however does know how the gods feel about this, and seeing as how the Godsmoot has now happened, Xykon is a sending spell away from knowing exactly how close the gods are to getting off their asses and doing something. Also, the previous plan, as far as Xykon knew, didn't involve blowing up the world. He'll be escalating the stakes far beyond what he originally thought they were. That's plenty good reason to think that "Gee, maybe I might be in for more divine wrath than I was counting on.

I fail to see why he might fear more divine wrath than: "Gee, I'm trying to get the control of a God-killing monster. But I trust that the Gods will not fear that I can unleash it against them."




The phrase that comes to mind here is "We don't negotiate with terrorists". Not that any terrorist has been in any remotely comparable situation, so I really have no idea what you're trying to use as an example here.

And Xykon escaping doesn't change much. He's not the only person who can plane shift, so it's not going to work as a threat to

"We don't negotiate with terrorists" is a thing that is said by people who are not under the threat of being killed.
In this scenario no one will be under that position.

About plane shifting, granted, every single high-priest can plane shift. And even most of the major rulers of the world. And I have no doubt they would do that, if they were sure X was going to destroy the world.
But losing all your power (and all the people who you were supposed to protect, in the case of Good dudes) just to don't bend the knee, doesn't seem a good idea, overall.
In any case, again, that won't change anything. They can plane-shift even if X uses the Snarl to attack their capitol city. So it makes no difference.

Indeed, like I've written just above



The plan how X thinks it is now: "I, Xykon, will get the gate and, with the help of RC, execute a ritual which will unleash a terrible monster which I can use to threaten the inhabitants of this world to get what I want."

The plan how it could be: "I, Xykon, will get the gate and, with the help of RC, execute a ritual which will unleash a terrible monster which I can use to threaten the inhabitants of this world to get what I want."


So anything that doesn't specifically change because of the stroke text, makes no difference.

[BloodSquirrel]

I fail to see why he might fear more divine wrath than: "Gee, I'm trying to get the control of a God-killing monster. But I trust that the Gods will not fear that I can unleash it against them."

Xykon didn't know that threatening the gods themselves was part of the plan. TDO and Redcloak were similarly under false impressions regarding the god's likely response. Better information is going to be available to Xykon at this point.




"We don't negotiate with terrorists" is a thing that is said by people who are not under the threat of being killed.
In this scenario no one will be under that position.

I still have no idea what real-world event you're actually referencing here or what outcome you think from it is applicable. The Cold War analogy is vast, VASTLY more apt.



About plane shifting, granted, every single high-priest can plane shift. And even most of the major rulers of the world. And I have no doubt they would do that, if they were sure X was going to destroy the world.
But losing all your power (and all the people who you were supposed to protect, in the case of Good dudes) just to don't bend the knee, doesn't seem a good idea, overall.


The same thing applies to Xykon- blowing up the whole world, all of your stuff, all of the stuff you wanted to rule, and being adrift in the astral plane as a best-case scenario doesn't seem like a good idea overall.



In any case, again, that won't change anything. They can plane-shift even if X uses the Snarl to attack their capitol city. So it makes no difference.


It changes everything. Xykon has gone from being able to use it against a single target to only having the option "blow up the world". "Surrender or I'll blow up your capital city" is


Look, this whole idea is just goofy.

-It relies on the gods being unwilling to act, which we now know is false. All it takes is one high priest telling him "Hey, dumbass, the gods are actually willing to blow up the world if they think it's going to happen anyway so that they can do it on more controlled terms.

-It relies on nobody on the entire planet calling his bluff, because once someone does, the whole thing falls apart. Somehow, I don't see Tarquin being so willing to play Xykon's game, when he still thinks he's the real villain and is willing to believe that narrative convention will prevent Xykon from action.

-It relies on making an enemy of almost all of the most powerful beings on the planet. Every dragon, any other epic-level casters still hiding out somewhere, every person or creature who might have said "Eh, let Xykon conquer the world, not really my problem" is now looking at actually having the planet blow up out from under their feet. Xykon is powerful, but he's not invincible.

-It relies on nobody having an agenda that does involve blowing up the world coming along and throwing a monkey wrench in things by, say, attacking his fortress.

-It relies on nobody deciding that it's better to destroy the world than have it be an eternal dystopia ruled by an evil lich who only wants to make people suffer. You know, kind of like how Redcloak thinks that blowing up the world so that TDO can have a hand in creating the next one is a good plan B?

There's just no way I can see this plan working, and none of your responses since the first post have done anything to strengthen your case.

[Dr.Zero]

Xykon didn't know that threatening the gods themselves was part of the plan. TDO and Redcloak were similarly under false impressions regarding the god's likely response. Better information is going to be available to Xykon at this point.

I see my points have been vastly missed. This one specifically. Maybe it depends by my inability to properly write in english (which I'm aware of) and to properly explain the issues I'm discussing.

X didn't need to know anything about the DO's plan.
The simple fact that he -personally, afahk- was going to gain control of a God-killing monster, should have been enough to make him wonder: "Hey, maybe the Gods won't agree? Maybe they will fear that I'm going to use the Snarl against them to conquer the whole multiverse, like I plan to do with this world?"
He didn't care. Not even for a single moment.
There is literally no reason that using the gate in a way that gives him less leverage against the Gods (he won't be able to control the God-killing monster) can trigger in him the reaction: "Hey, maybe this time they will get angry."
And if it does, he'd need to abandon the plan with RC, too.

[Good Coyote]

The (true) ritual is the only thing that allows the Snarl to threaten the gods, since it otherwise can't exit the material plane and they don't live there. Destroying the Gate only lets the Snarl do the same thing that it has however many times before.

I don't think it had occurred to Xykon to try to find a spell or ritual that he could use to transfer it to other planes, once it was under his control from the (nonexistant false) ritual. There's no reason to think that normal plane-traveling spells would work on it, since it's a very unique creature type. (Also the gods would be very dumb to have magic that could commonly, easily do that just lying around.) Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't remember anyone referring to it as God-killing outside of the context of the ritual. He didn't know before.

So... removing the ritual from the equation does make the gods care less. It's not about them getting threatened anymore, it's just about destroying this world and starting over before they lose the souls to the Snarl. Which they've done before, and have every expectation of having to do at some point in every world regardless.

But they would still definitely find that lich and make sure he doesn't get a chance to get back into the next world, locate a Snarl rip, and use it to take over their next world too. Especially given that he would now know about at least the theoretical possibility of a ritual that could use the Snarl to threaten them. (He's studied half of it, or at least had the chance to, but I'm being generous on the side of Xykon not working very hard or remembering very well.) That's a ticket straight to hell and ultimate oblivion, if only to remove that knowledge from the world.

That's going to happen at some point anyway. (Johnny Cash voice) You can run on for a long time, but sooner or later... However Xykon should still not do anything to move that timetable up.

[Goblin_Priest]

None of those times involved one player making aggressive demands of the other, however.

Well, the Cuban Missile Crisis was kinda this.

"Remove your missiles out of Turkey!"
"No!"
Angry noises, bring missiles to Cuba.
"Don't land missiles on Cuba!"
Angry noises. Almost war. Missiles pulled out of Turkey as requested.

Multiple sources seem to suggest Cuba was willing to risk conflict on this matter

I mean, it's not exactly a "I have a nuke, so hail to my demands!" scenario, but that's because the real world didn't have a monopoly of nuclear power for any significant period of time. And that during that time, nuclear weapons were not in large enough numbers to really change much of the power balances or ramifications of potential war.

This gate scenario involves a monopoly over the capacity to destroy the world. At least through the gate. Then there's the gods' ability to unmake the world, but it's quite a different playing field than what the mortals play on.



This would make "Do what I want or I blow up the world" even less likely to work.

Does it? The existence of an afterlife lessens the consequences of death, but the erasure from existence and the scope of the destruction increase the stakes. The existence of other planes also grants a would-be terrorist a safe exit, unlike in the real world where anyone who triggers nuclear winter would be basically stuck to live in a bunker for the rest of his life. One can't escape the consequences in the real world, but in the game world, losing the material plane is not such a huge loss for a would-be terrorist, because it doesn't deny him much that he can't find elsewhere.

[MoiMagnus]

Even if Xykon doesn't need RC anymore for the plan, having a high level cleric with you is a non-negligible asset. (Who doesn't like to be back at full HP after a fight?)

Since Xykon is taking the MitD with him, it's fair to assume that Xykon expects to encounter at least one fight where he will be in enough danger for some help to be convenient.

[BloodSquirrel]

I see my points have been vastly missed.


This is, quite frankly, a cop-out for having to respond to any of the very specific objections I've made to the points that you've raised.

And no, it has nothing to do with your English. Case in point: I've specifically asked you what real-world example you're referencing when you just say "terrorism". That should be an easy one for you if it's just that I've "missed your point" or bad linguistic skills.



X didn't need to know anything about the DO's plan.
The simple fact that he -personally, afahk- was going to gain control of a God-killing monster, should have been enough to make him wonder: "Hey, maybe the Gods won't agree? Maybe they will fear that I'm going to use the Snarl against them to conquer the whole multiverse, like I plan to do with this world?"
He didn't care. Not even for a single moment.
There is literally no reason that using the gate in a way that gives him less leverage against the Gods (he won't be able to control the God-killing monster) can trigger in him the reaction: "Hey, maybe this time they will get angry."
And if it does, he'd need to abandon the plan with RC, too.

Xykon didn't know nearly as much as you're pretending he did. He only knew what Redcloak told him, which was heavily edited to reduce the overall stakes. The original plan did not involve the ritual being capable of threatening the gods, or destroying the entire world. There is a literal world of difference between "The gods won't interfere if I blow up a couple of cities" and "The gods won't interfere if I blow up the whole planet and destroy all of the souls of their followers".

You are also -again- ignoring the fact that new information has come about regarding the gods' willingness to act, which Xykon can be readily made aware of. Before the Godsmoot, it was mostly just taken as given that the gods did not interfere with the world. We have since learned that there is a specific reason for this. We have also learned that there is a point at which the gods are willing to act, and what that action is likely to be (blow up the planet before Xykon does).

I'm going to give you some advice on making an at least half-function argument right here- Don't ignore this point. Don't shrug it off as "You're not listening to me!". Actually respond to it and point out where it's wrong:

We know specific things about the gods and what they decided or almost decided to do, why they don't interfere in the mortal world, what they are planning to do moving forward, and what the ritual will do if cast that neither we nor Xykon knew when he agreed to Redcloak's plan. This information is all easily imparted to Xykon by people who have an interest in altering his plans. Pay very close attention here: We know that the gods voted on whether to destroy the world when the rifts first appeared. Xykon did not know that when he agreed to the plan.

How does being made aware of new, highly relevant information not change Xykon's likely course of action?

[BloodSquirrel]

Well, the Cuban Missile Crisis was kinda this.

"Remove your missiles out of Turkey!"
"No!"
Angry noises, bring missiles to Cuba.
"Don't land missiles on Cuba!"
Angry noises. Almost war. Missiles pulled out of Turkey as requested.

I'm trying to avoid getting into the complexities of the whole thing, but this can more or less be summed up as: the threat of MAD can be used to make the other side back down from aggressive moves like putting more missiles right on your border, but it was insufficient for either the US or the Soviet Union to demand that the other nation change its government. The Cuban missile crisis was a game of "who can go closest to the line without inching over it", while what the OP is proposing is a demand of complete, unqualified submission.



I mean, it's not exactly a "I have a nuke, so hail to my demands!" scenario, but that's because the real world didn't have a monopoly of nuclear power for any significant period of time.

The lack of a monopoly is what makes it comparable. When only one side has nukes, it's no longer MAD, which is why Xykon's original idea of the plan was far more plausible.



Does it? The existence of an afterlife lessens the consequences of death, but the erasure from existence and the scope of the destruction increase the stakes. The existence of other planes also grants a would-be terrorist a safe exit, unlike in the real world where anyone who triggers nuclear winter would be basically stuck to live in a bunker for the rest of his life. One can't escape the consequences in the real world, but in the game world, losing the material plane is not such a huge loss for a would-be terrorist, because it doesn't deny him much that he can't find elsewhere.

The existence of an afterlife presents another option: die now and still get to exist, rather than live a life of brutal torture and misery. After all, if Xykon destroys the gate, the gods will still be able to blow up the world first, and this is knowledge that can easily come out. And the thing you're forgetting is that plane shift means that *other* powerful people, not just Xykon, have an out. Much like Helga, their options are no longer "submit or be destroyed", so you can't count on keeping them in line with that same threat.