The Aberrant Mind fixed the sorcerer

[Cikomyr2]

The Aberrant Mind fixed the sorcerer.

I am not even kidding. All sorcerer subclasses should have the following:

Extra 2 spells/spell level, akin to Domain spell for clerics. These spells should be thematically appropriate to the blood line.

These spells could be swapped in and out at the rate of 1/level, and there should be heavy restriction as to what spells should be available to replace them, but the sorcerer should be allowed to get out of the standard. "sorcerer spell list", the same way Aberrant Mind is allowed to take warlock or wizard spells.

Finally, the spells on the special bloodline spell list should be able to be cast with Sorcery point at a 1 point per spell level with no additional cost.

From there, you may or may not decide if the "and its subtle" bonus offered by Aberrant Mind should remain an Aberrant Mind exclusive, or if all bloodlines should have a fancy effect added to their Bloodline spell list.

The whole point is that for *these* thematic spell, the sorcerer should just naturally throw them around.

[jas61292]

Strongly disagree. Metamagic is the defining feature of the sorcerer, and its power is compensated by the fact that sorcerers get very few spells known. Should they, perhaps, have a bit more than they do? Sure. And I can totally see an argument for a few extras through the subclass. But a few extras should be 1 per spell level at most. If you give them a single spell at spell levels one through five, that ends up giving them a total of 20 spells in 20 levels. That is restricted, but more manageable, and also allows each subclass to have its own flavor.

Giving two per level completely destroys the whole idea of sorcerers being restricted at all. This is made even worse if you allow them to swap out those spells. Not only does swapping destroy unique subclass flavor, but it also just makes it so that the sorcerer has enough free spells to just take all the best ones.

The extra spells alone make Abberant Mind and Clockwork Soul totally unbalanced as subclasses, but allowing them to do more (cast those spells easier, add free metamagic) is just icing on the cake of poor design.

Ultimately, the design space of the Sorcerer in 5th Edition is a limited caster that makes up for its forced specialization by using metamagic to enhance their spells. Eliminating the core restriction is not only eliminating the biggest balancing factor, but it also eliminates their main reason for existing as a class. At that point, you might as well just give metamagic to the wizard and cut Sorcerer in its entirety. That would also be horribly unbalanced, but at least it would trim some of the fat out of the game.

[MrStabby]

Aberrant Mind broke the sorcerer. Its almost as imbalanced as the wizard now.

[Cikomyr2]

Aberrant Mind broke the sorcerer. Its almost as imbalanced as the wizard now.

So you mean it BALANCED it with the Wizard :D

[J-H]

All sorcerer subclasses get bonus spells based on their origin at my table.

[mealar]

As someone about to play an Aberrant Sorc i probably shouldn't be complaining but it is super powerful. maybe if it was something more in line with how some Ranger subclasses get spells of 1 per benchmark, i also am happy with the spells being swappable but limited by the school. while not perfect it does allow a bit more customisation of a build.

Casting directly from Sorc points feels kinda off, it's save to save on having to convert stuff but doesn't feel like a big addition, just a cheaper option.

[Mjolnirbear]

Strongly disagree. Metamagic is the defining feature of the sorcerer, and its power is compensated by the fact that sorcerers get very few spells known. Should they, perhaps, have a bit more than they do? Sure. And I can totally see an argument for a few extras through the subclass. But a few extras should be 1 per spell level at most. If you give them a single spell at spell levels one through five, that ends up giving them a total of 20 spells in 20 levels. That is restricted, but more manageable, and also allows each subclass to have its own flavor.

Giving two per level completely destroys the whole idea of sorcerers being restricted at all. This is made even worse if you allow them to swap out those spells. Not only does swapping destroy unique subclass flavor, but it also just makes it so that the sorcerer has enough free spells to just take all the best ones.

The extra spells alone make Abberant Mind and Clockwork Soul totally unbalanced as subclasses, but allowing them to do more (cast those spells easier, add free metamagic) is just icing on the cake of poor design.

Ultimately, the design space of the Sorcerer in 5th Edition is a limited caster that makes up for its forced specialization by using metamagic to enhance their spells. Eliminating the core restriction is not only eliminating the biggest balancing factor, but it also eliminates their main reason for existing as a class. At that point, you might as well just give metamagic to the wizard and cut Sorcerer in its entirety. That would also be horribly unbalanced, but at least it would trim some of the fat out of the game.

So you're saying metamagic is SO powerful that's why base wizard gets almost 3 times the known spells sorcerers do? That does not feel like a reasonable explanation.

I happen to disagree.

Honestly I'm really tired of that argument. "Sorcerers has to be worse than wizards or who would play a wizard" is what it feels like. I'm not putting words in your mouth; I'm saying that's what these kinds of arguments feel like to me.

It makes sense that, having the literal elemental power of a red dragon in your veins, that you can cast a Fireball easier and stronger than anyone else. And so it makes sense that a sorcerer should have themed spells representing that bloodline.

I do, however, agree about the swapping. Because a dragon doesn't care about spell schools. It doesn't breathe evocation or evoke enchantment or divinate (yes, I know, but divine was too ambiguous) the location of enemies, it breathes fire and evokes fear and has preternatural senses. The Eldritch horror in your bloodline isn't just about charms and enchantments but also mind-breaking illusions, conjuring alien *things*, twisting and transmuting some things into parodies of nature. A spell list better represents that breadth of power and change than limiting by school.

Honestly if I were building the sorcerer right now from the ground up, I'd have Flexible Casting and Metamagic use different resources. Because that resource is limited so you can't have too many more extra spells, which means you can't really get much use out of metamagic. Having the two together simplified it but also resulted in gimping the flavour and feel of the sorcerer and all the wizards fans coming out of the woodwork screaming about broken sorcerers.

I'd have:
* bloodline spells, representing the power of the bloodline
* a special thematic thing the bloodline can do with SP
* eschew materials (you're not a wizard, Harry!)
* possibly a free metamagic suitable to your bloodline

You know what... I might ditch flexible casting altogether. Or limit it to bloodline spells. I mean, they didn't use spell points presumably because it overcomplicated things, so why is spell point light in here? So get rid of sacrificing spell slots for more points. Make Sorcery Points only used to cast bloodline spells and power metamagic. Fiddle with the number of SP. Probably adjust it for a short-rest-based resource.

[Dalinar]

I agree that the two themed spells per level is something that just makes sense for sorcerer design. The low spells known in practice means you'll just pick the most broadly applicable spells if you care about your character's power level (and if you don't, then why worry about balance?), so having a couple thematic choices locked in and a couple of your choice seems like the best way to keep the class customizable and thematic at the same time without stepping on the hyper-versatile niche of the Wizard.

That said, the total spells known might be a little much with those additions. I'm a relatively new player without the sheer table experience that some posters here have, so I'm not really privvy to how Tasha's Sorcerer stacks up versus Wizard.

Also, Psionic Sorcery is absolutely bonkers. I love the idea as a player, but I feel like if I were a DM I'd be having a headache as soon as my Aberrant Mind player got to some of the more hardcore spells like, of course, Modify Memory.

Basically, I both absolutely love this subclass and I worry about some of its balance implications. I don't think those are mutually exclusive.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Aberrant Mind broke the sorcerer. Its almost as imbalanced as the wizard now.
🤣 Excellent Epigram!
(of course you might earnestly believe the quoted statement.)


Metamagic is the defining feature of the sorcerer, and its power is compensated by the fact that sorcerers get very few spells known

Metamagic is a single example of a defining feature of the class.
The foundational feature of the Sorcerer class, is the fact that the class is a 'full' spellcaster.

Metamagic doesn't come into the picture until 3rd level, while 5e spells,(and the role that spells play in 5e), have been present, and are the true focus of the class from level 1, and remain the lifeblood of the class, until level 20.

Metamagic is irrelevant if the Sorcerer is out of spells. Font of Magic, is the beating heart of the class. Unfortunately it took 6 years for the game designers to better utilize Sorcery Points.

Ultimately, the design space of the Sorcerer in 5th Edition is a limited caster that makes up for its forced specialization by using metamagic to enhance their spells.
5e isn't dead. We have not reached an "ultimate" yet. Successful RPG systems incorporate the exigent knowledge gleaned from play, and resist the temptation to doggedly cling to the limited view of the initial 'design space'.

Sorcerers, Barbarians, and Warlocks are classes that D&D, has never, in any edition, gotten exactly right. Preconceived restraints to the class' "Design Space", is likely the culprit. Change is needed.

Eliminating the core restriction is not only eliminating the biggest balancing factor, but it also eliminates their main reason for existing as a class. At that point, you might as well just give metamagic to the wizard and cut Sorcerer in its entirety. That would also be horribly unbalanced, but at least it would trim some of the fat out of the game.
So by allowing a 'full' spellcasting class the opportunity to cast from a larger selection of spells, the Sorcerer class simultaneously becomes all-powerful, and a class that should be cut for being redundant?

A Tempest Cleric's Destructive Wrath, in my opinion, falls under the broad category of Metamagical Powers. An Ancients Paladin's Elder Champion Ability, or a Warlock's Eldritch Spear Invocation, or an Evoker Wizard's use of Sculpt Spells are a limited sampling of the metamagical powers present in classes other than the Sorcerer. The Spell Sniper feat is a metamagical option, available to anyone that can cast a spell, and whom plays in a game that allows feats.

Metamagical Effects are not a Domain exclusively monopolized by the Sorcerer class. Any High Elf, or Githyanki,(or any race that grants use of a Cantrip or Spell), qualifies for the Metamagical feat Spell Sniper.

It is a false premise that Metamagical effects only belong to the Sorcerer class, and the class should and does have an identity that is bound only to Metamagic. The idea and appeal of the Sorcerer class is more expansive than your formulation, I am afraid.

[MaxWilson]

Strongly disagree. Metamagic is the defining feature of the sorcerer, and its power is compensated by the fact that sorcerers get very few spells known.

...

Ultimately, the design space of the Sorcerer in 5th Edition is a limited caster that makes up for its forced specialization by using metamagic to enhance their spells.

I've read the whole thread and I wanted to respond to this point here by saying, "That's not enough to support the themes." Storm Sorcerers feel *terrible*, partly because they just can't afford to take many stormy spells (they compete with spells that are actually good, like Counterspell and Hypnotic Pattern). Metamagic doesn't help compensate for that, it's orthogonal. I've found though that by giving them domain spells like Sleet Storm and Storm Sphere, with the ability to trade out for wizard/warlock evocations, they do feel like Storm Sorcerers after all. Is Storm Sphere a better spell than Polymorph? Is it making Storm Sorcs more powerful? Eh, not really, although Careful Storm Sphere isn't bad for a Mobile party especially. But mostly it's just DIFFERENT from other sorcs.

I'm a fan of domain spells for all sorcs, and in some cases where it's thematic (Shadow Sorc => Necromancy, Dragon => Enchantment) allowing swapping domain spells for spells on the wizard list, too. It gives sorcerers a stronger subclass identity which in turn makes the class overall feel more anchored: now they're not just "the Charisma caster with metamagic", they're "the altered demihumans each with a special shtick; effectively the X-Men".

I think it's an improvement. One of only two things from or inspired by Tasha's that I allow in my game (the other being the monk's Ki Fueled Strike).

[Dark.Revenant]

How good is Metamagic, really?

Careful Spell: 1 SP for something that is less broadly useful than the Evoker's Sculpt Spell ability. The RAW here prohibits most of the useful combinations. A trap for blasting; Fireball will typically do 13.5 to 27 damage to enemies and 13.5 damage to allies when cast Carefully. Sculpt Spell would have it do 13.5 to 27 damage to enemies and 0 damage to allies. Assuming a 60% chance to save all around, Sculpt Spell is 167% more effective than Careful Spell for blasting (which makes up the vast majority of spells that actually work with Careful Spell).

Distant Spell: 1 SP for something that's more broadly useful than Spell Sniper, but costs a resource. Range comes up fairly often, but the Sorcerer already has the ability to pack a couple long-range options for most situations you'd want Distant Spell for.

Empowered Spell: 1 SP to increase damage by, theoretically, up to 27.5. An average Fireball will be increased by around 5-6, though a particularly bad Fireball (a standard deviation below average) will be increased by more like 7—half that if the enemy saves. We can think of this as a 20% damage boost, assuming failed saves. This is roughly comparable to the Evoker's ability to add a flat modifier to damage, which doesn't cost a resource, though the Sorcerer can potentially take a (weaker) subclass to double up on a similar ability and Empowered Spell.

Extended Spell: 1 SP for something that is largely useless for most Sorcerers; only the Divine Soul can truly exploit Extended Spell by hedging slots at the start of a Long Rest to cast 16-hour buffs.

Heightened Spell: 3 SP to make a particular target's particular save 0% to 50% more likely to fail. In the best case, if the save had a 50% chance of failing, it'll be 75% with Heightened Spell. This is particularly good for high-level spells, though while inflicting disadvantage on enemy saves is fairly rare, there are other ways to reduce enemy saves. One example is the Diviner, who can occasionally force an automatic failure on demand.

Quickened Spell: 2 SP to cast an extra cantrip, attack, dodge/dash/disengage/hide/use an object/whatever, use a magic item, or activate an action-costing spell effect—in addition to the action-casting-time spell you'd normally cast. Fairly potent, but expensive; Patient Defense only costs 1 Ki, Cunning Action is free, etc. Assuming a 60% chance to hit, the extra cantrip can do 3.6 to 17.3 damage, depending on level and whether or not you have a flat +5 to damage from a subclass ability. Until the late game, Empowered Spell is more efficient for damage-dealing, even though Empowered Spell itself has a similar impact compared to resource-free flat +5 damage boosts.

Seeking Spell: 2 SP to potentially change a miss into a hit; assuming a 60% chance to hit and a spell that does 3d10 damage, this is a damage boost of about 10.7. Usually going to be limited to cantrips, unless you have some kind of weird Divine Soul build that likes to cast Guiding Bolt or Inflict Wounds. As a general rule, this will be more damage than Empowered Spell in tiers 3 and 4, but far more narrowly applicable. Abilities that allow attack re-rolls are not that common, but they do exist. Most people who take Seeking Spell will be casting Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade—it's expensive, but the damage reward is usually worth it for those cantrips.

Subtle Spell: 1 SP to make a spell with no material components imperceptible (until it's too late), or to make a spell with material components potentially more difficult to notice. It can also allow casting while bound, gagged, and/or silenced. This is a unique ability, but one whose usefulness will be very hit-or-miss. In combat, this only really protects you from Counterspell. Out of combat, you might be able to occasionally pull off some spells you'd otherwise be unable to cast in a social situation, but the more reliable use for this (given that many social spells have material components) is to support stealth missions.

Transmuted Spell: 1 SP to potentially avoid the resistance of an enemy. Effectively double damage, sure, but you can typically just cast a spell of the correct damage type instead...a maneuver that costs only 0 SP. Could be useful to make something like Blue/Bronze or Black/Copper Ancestry more accessible, but nothing can save Green Ancestry. Compare to the Scribe, who can do this without expending resources.

Twinned Spell: 1 to 9 SP to target two creatures instead of one, for a limited subset of spells. A few specific combinations are really powerful with this ability, but if you're not using those spells, Twinned Spell is pretty useless. Encourages taking an abundance of single-target save-or-sucks, which is something you usually want to avoid doing.

[stoutstien]

Both the sorcerer and wizard are flawed designs because spell casting isn't a unique features no matter which way you cut it. Additionally, the spell list is homogenized to the point of no return so unique spells are also not good class features.

The sorcerer gets fonts of magic and metamagic which are okay but are closer to feat material than class features. Wizards subclasses are pretty meh outside of 1-2 options so they are basically riding familiarity and notoriety to exist.

[jas61292]

So you're saying metamagic is SO powerful that's why base wizard gets almost 3 times the known spells sorcerers do? That does not feel like a reasonable explanation.

Not exactly. I don't think metamagic is the equivalent of giving them the spells of a wizard. That said, I also think Wizard is the most poorly designed class in the game, and that trying to balance using them as a guideline is a bad idea.

As I actually said in my original post, I really would not have an issue with adding, say, one spell of levels 1-5 to each subclass. The number the Sorcerer currently gets in total is kinda low, and while that may be intentional, I don't think a small boost would be out of line. What's more, it would help and theme and flavor to each subclass.

So no, I am not saying that metamagic is the answer to everything. But it is quite powerful, and giving enough extra spells (especially if you let them be swapped out and become the generic top tier spells, instead of staying thematic) is not necessarily a great idea.


Honestly I'm really tired of that argument. "Sorcerers has to be worse than wizards or who would play a wizard" is what it feels like. I'm not putting words in your mouth; I'm saying that's what these kinds of arguments feel like to me.

Again, I think Wizard is a terribly designed class. Sorcerer has issues too, but contrary to what some people may tell you, "always buff/never nerf" is as terrible game design principle. This is not to say Sorcerer shouldn't get a buff. But it is to say that if wizard is a problem child, you should also look at reigning it in, not simply trying to pump Sorcerer up to its level.


It makes sense that, having the literal elemental power of a red dragon in your veins, that you can cast a Fireball easier and stronger than anyone else. And so it makes sense that a sorcerer should have themed spells representing that bloodline.

I do, however, agree about the swapping. Because a dragon doesn't care about spell schools. It doesn't breathe evocation or evoke enchantment or divinate (yes, I know, but divine was too ambiguous) the location of enemies, it breathes fire and evokes fear and has preternatural senses. The Eldritch horror in your bloodline isn't just about charms and enchantments but also mind-breaking illusions, conjuring alien *things*, twisting and transmuting some things into parodies of nature. A spell list better represents that breadth of power and change than limiting by school.

I generally agree that a themed list is a good way to give a buff to sorcerers. Obviously I disagree on the size of the list, but its existence is not bad. Perhaps a good solution would be to have a select list of two or three per level, but you can only pick one that you get for free. And maybe it could also be like warlocks where it adds spells to your class list so you can pick them with your other selections as well. That might be hard to work out, as it would require most spells you assign to the lists to not already be sorcerer spells, but it would be interesting to look into.

[Damon_Tor]

Low spells known is a feature, not a bug.

The the sorcerer is the version of the full-caster that works well for people who otherwise tend to get decision paralysis with a plate full of options. If all someone wants to do is shoot fire, then why the hell shouldn't there be a class with just enough spells known to give them exactly that without a lot of other stuff to clog up the cognitive pipes?

The problem is, the sorcerer needs to be substantially better at casting those limited spells than the wizard is, but that's not the case. A red-dragon sorcerer is not better at shooting fireballs than a evoker wizard and they really should be because the evoker, despite a chosen focus on evokation, still has the benefit of having a spellbook full of all sorts of other options.

Giving a sorcerer more spells known and access to more varied spell lists doesn't help the sorcerer, because it just makes the sorcerer more like a wizard rather than strengthening them in their own identity.

[Mjolnirbear]

Low spells known is a feature, not a bug.

The the sorcerer is the version of the full-caster that works well for people who otherwise tend to get decision paralysis with a plate full of options. If all someone wants to do is shoot fire, then why the hell shouldn't there be a class with just enough spells known to give them exactly that without a lot of other stuff to clog up the cognitive pipes?

The problem is, the sorcerer needs to be substantially better at casting those limited spells than the wizard is, but that's not the case. A red-dragon sorcerer is not better at shooting fireballs than a evoker wizard and they really should be because the evoker, despite a chosen focus on evokation, still has the benefit of having a spellbook full of all sorts of other options.

Giving a sorcerer more spells known and access to more varied spell lists doesn't help the sorcerer, because it just makes the sorcerer more like a wizard rather than strengthening them in their own identity.

You think the sorcerer is the Champion of the casters? I...well, I hate to break it to you, but no caster can be uncomplicated. Simply choosing spells out of the dozens of options at first level is what makes playing a caster the most complex choices. When you get right down to it, though, that means the Wizard is the least complicated, because it has no other resources or features to manage. No maths for every SP gained or spent, no invocations or inspirations or channel divinities or wildshape to spend.

Also, if Domain Spells, Oath Spells, Pact Spells and Circle Spells help nail down a caster's identity and flavour, why would Bloodline Spells fail to perform that function? Its a well-established practice to theme your spells by adjusting your classes spell list for you. And since you can also get Theme Spells via background or Subrace, it's not apparently that OP a practice.

For your "sorcerers should be better at" comment, apparently that's a HUGE concern both at Wizards and at forums such as these. Look at all the people doing maths and utterly concerned that if you spend all your SP you can get enough extra spell slots to rival that short-rest wizard feature thingy (and forgetting sorcerers do not have any left to use metamagic) . Or those terrified that you can sacrifice all your lower spell slots to carry more Fireballs.

In this very thread aberrant sorcerers are called broken several times. Not because they've demonstrated this brokenness. No, by all appearances their only measure of broken is that aberrant sorcerer has more spells known. Utterly broken.

For sorcerers that is. Not for paladin, rangers, warlocks, druids, clerics, or artificers. Just for sorcerers.

[Damon_Tor]

You think the sorcerer is the Champion of the casters? I...well, I hate to break it to you, but no caster can be uncomplicated. Simply choosing spells out of the dozens of options at first level is what makes playing a caster the most complex choices.

There's a difference between options paralysis during character creation and levelup and options paralysis at long rest or mid-encounter. I'll grant the sorcerer is as complex as the others to build, but it's the gameplay where it has fewer decisions. Wake up in the morning, most other casters have to decide which spells to prepare, but not the sorcerer. It's the sorcerer's turn, it doesn't have to pick between a dozen spells, just five or six. There is a difference there, and there are people who prefer it this way.

Now, I don't object to the Aberrant Mind sorcerer existing. It's fine for there to be a sorcerer that's more wizard-like in terms of spells known. My objection is to the idea that every sorcerer subclass should get similar treatment.

[heavyfuel]

@OP

"Fixed" is a strong word for a class that was never broken in the first place. Was the Sorcerer weaker than the Wizard? Sure. I think you'll find few people that disagree with that. But was the Sorcerer ever weak enough that it deserved a huge buff with Tasha's bloodlines?

I still love AM and can't wait to play it. But I can't wait to play it because I love playing Wizards and AM/CS is basically a Wizard.


So you're saying metamagic is SO powerful that's why base wizard gets almost 3 times the known spells sorcerers do? That does not feel like a reasonable explanation.

I happen to disagree.

Honestly I'm really tired of that argument. "Sorcerers has to be worse than wizards or who would play a wizard" is what it feels like. I'm not putting words in your mouth; I'm saying that's what these kinds of arguments feel like to me.

To me, these arguments always echo the argument that Fighters have tons of options. Maybe you've heard them? "I can use Precision Attack with my Longsword, or I can use Precision Attack with my Glaive". Truly the options are boundless. A Sorcerer can cast Fireball, or they can cast Subtle Fireball. Again, worlds apart.

[Kane0]

Aberrant Mind and Clockwork soul brought the Sorc up a peg, rectifying the sorc's base flaws in order to bring them onto a roughly even playing field to the other full casters.

Personally I would have preferred bringing a select set of fullcasters back towards the Sorc's level but obviously that's a lot more work and wouldn't be done outside of homebrew. At least this means the sorc's relative shortcomings have been acknowledged.

[MrStabby]

And once again we see the utter pointlessness of comparing a class to the wizard.

Yes the wizard is better. The wizard is pretty much better than everything. Its time to get over that.


Just because something is less good than the wizard doesn't mean it is underpowerd. It doesn't mean it needs help. Cherry picking one class and then comparing it to that single option proves nothing. Its like saying that a fighter is too delicate by comparing its hit die size to the barbarian.

If you want to make a case then you need a broader evidence base. Compare its power to all the classes. Is it more powerful than the rogue? than the barbarian? than the fighter, the ranger, the monk or the cleric? There existing one class of 12 that is better proves simply that there is one class better. Generalising from there being one class better to "X class is underpowered and needs a buff/have its key weakness removed" is what one might call A Bit of a Stretch.

Now I am all for thematic sorcerers. That's cool. But do that by swapping out spells not by simply buffing a powerful class, and not just weak spells - you want to add lightning bolt to a storm sorcerer? Go ahead - you lose hypnotic pattern from the list. If you want to rebalance classes, cool - its fun but a good success criterion is if the dispersion of the power of the classes is lower afterwards not higher.

I have every sympathy. There are a lot of classes I take issue with. For example I don't think the barbarian is fun for me. My solution? Don't play one.

[heavyfuel]

Just because something is less good than the wizard doesn't mean it is underpowerd. It doesn't mean it needs help.

There existing one class of 12 that is better proves simply that there is one class better.

So very true. Though I'd be remiss if I didn't nitpick that I also think Druids go hand in hand with Wizard in terms of power and versatility, at least until late Tier 3.

[MrStabby]

So very true. Though I'd be remiss if I didn't nitpick that I also think Druids go hand in hand with Wizard in terms of power and versatility, at least until late Tier 3.

I will admit sometimes they are close, though I think the ritual casting and the fact that wizards get their arcane recovery baked into their base class helps. I also think that the druid has an overpreponderance of concentration spells/lack of stellar non concentration combat spells. Most of their best spells can stand toe to toe with a wizard, but the cumulative portfolio of all of them together I think is weaker.

Druid will go up in my estimation if

a) GGtR is in play. Dropping counterspell and command as an Azorious druid basically fixes the weaknesses.
b) There is no frontline of any description in the party and the role of summoned monsters/wildshape becomes a bit more important.

[MaxWilson]

So very true. Though I'd be remiss if I didn't nitpick that I also think Druids go hand in hand with Wizard in terms of power and versatility, at least until late Tier 3.

Yeah, and in Tier 1-2 I'd argue that Druid is substantially better than Wizard. But those 9th level spells like Wish and True Polymorph, and Simulacrum, are a game changer.

[Merudo]

How good is Metamagic, really?

Careful Spell: 1 SP for something that is less broadly useful than the Evoker's Sculpt Spell ability. The RAW here prohibits most of the useful combinations. A trap for blasting; Fireball will typically do 13.5 to 27 damage to enemies and 13.5 damage to allies when cast Carefully. Sculpt Spell would have it do 13.5 to 27 damage to enemies and 0 damage to allies. Assuming a 60% chance to save all around, Sculpt Spell is 167% more effective than Careful Spell for blasting (which makes up the vast majority of spells that actually work with Careful Spell).


Careful Spell is mostly worth it for Hypnotic Pattern & Fear, two amazing spells that the Evoker cannot sculpt.

Another niche but effective use of Careful Spell is to combine it with Circle of Power.



Quickened Spell

The draw of quickened spells is almost entirely due to multiclassing.



Subtle Spell: 1 SP to make a spell with no material components imperceptible (until it's too late), or to make a spell with material components potentially more difficult to notice. It can also allow casting while bound, gagged, and/or silenced. This is a unique ability, but one whose usefulness will be very hit-or-miss. In combat, this only really protects you from Counterspell. Out of combat, you might be able to occasionally pull off some spells you'd otherwise be unable to cast in a social situation, but the more reliable use for this (given that many social spells have material components) is to support stealth missions.


Subtle Spell does depend heavily on the DM / campaign, especially how frequently enemies use Counterspell, and how easily it is to cast spells in public without raising suspicion.



Twinned Spell: 1 to 9 SP to target two creatures instead of one, for a limited subset of spells. A few specific combinations are really powerful with this ability, but if you're not using those spells, Twinned Spell is pretty useless. Encourages taking an abundance of single-target save-or-sucks, which is something you usually want to avoid doing.

Twinning a Haste, a Polymorph, or a Greater Invisibility are probably the best uses of this.

[Dark.Revenant]

Careful Spell is mostly worth it for Hypnotic Pattern & Fear, two amazing spells that the Evoker cannot sculpt.
Another niche but effective use of Careful Spell is to combine it with Circle of Power.

The draw of quickened spells is almost entirely due to multiclassing.

Subtle Spell does depend heavily on the DM / campaign, especially how frequently enemies use Counterspell, and how easily it is to cast spells in public without raising suspicion.

Twinning a Haste, a Polymorph, or a Greater Invisibility are probably the best uses of this.

Part of the problem with Sorcerer metamagics is that, as you show, most of them are only really worth it with particular spells that make the most of the benefits. The Sorcerer's spell list wouldn't feel nearly so small if the metamagics were more broadly applicable.

Careful Spell only benefits ~21% of Sorcerer spells in any way. But it gets worse; here's an exhaustive list (to my powers of searching) of spells that Careful Spell can benefit such that, at least in some situation, they avoid avoid harming/affecting your allies:
Create Bonfire (initial save only), Sword Burst, Thunderclap, Catapult, Earth Tremor, Grease (initial), Ice Knife, Tasha's Caustic Brew, Pyrotechnics, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Confusion, Storm Sphere (initial), Watery Sphere (initial), Insect Plague (initial), Wall of Stone, Reverse Gravity, Earthquake (initial)

That's merely ~9% of spells that are available to a Tasha's Sorcerer, not including subclass lists.

Distant Spell, though not often that useful, does at least affect ~77% of Sorcerer spells.

Empowered Spell potentially benefits ~41% of Sorcerer spells.

Extended Spell theoretically benefits ~62% of Sorcerer spells, but the "benefit" is usually very slight. If we count spells whose extension might conceivably matter in a campaign (1 to 8 hour duration)—barring things like Aura of Life, which isn't a base Sorcerer spell—then it's only ~19%.

Heightened Spell benefits ~52% of Sorcerer spells, though the spells that generally receive the most benefit (3rd level and higher) narrow it to ~33%.

Quickened Spell "benefits" ~91% of Sorcerer spells, though the true beneficiary is whatever you plan to use your Action on. Something like ~10% of spells give you something repeatable to do with your Action; for a typical Sorcerer, these are the ones that make the most of Quicken Spell.

Seeking Spell benefits just ~9% of Sorcerer spells.

Subtle Spell benefits 100% of Sorcerer spells, and achieves imperceptibility for 50% of Sorcerer spells.

Transmuted Spell benefits ~22% of Sorcerer spells, a surprisingly low number.

Twinned Spell benefits ~26% of Sorcerer spells. That number drops to ~21% if we filter out spells that become ineligible when upcast.

[Kane0]

-Snip-

Thats handy information, thanks!

[Merudo]

Part of the problem with Sorcerer metamagics is that, as you show, most of them are only really worth it with particular spells that make the most of the benefits. The Sorcerer's spell list wouldn't feel nearly so small if the metamagics were more broadly applicable.

Careful Spell only benefits ~21% of Sorcerer spells in any way. But it gets worse; here's an exhaustive list (to my powers of searching) of spells that Careful Spell can benefit such that, at least in some situation, they avoid avoid harming/affecting your allies:
Create Bonfire (initial save only), Sword Burst, Thunderclap, Catapult, Earth Tremor, Grease (initial), Ice Knife, Tasha's Caustic Brew, Pyrotechnics, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Confusion, Storm Sphere (initial), Watery Sphere (initial), Insect Plague (initial), Wall of Stone, Reverse Gravity, Earthquake (initial)

That's merely ~9% of spells that are available to a Tasha's Sorcerer, not including subclass lists.

Distant Spell, though not often that useful, does at least affect ~77% of Sorcerer spells.

Empowered Spell potentially benefits ~41% of Sorcerer spells.

Extended Spell theoretically benefits ~62% of Sorcerer spells, but the "benefit" is usually very slight. If we count spells whose extension might conceivably matter in a campaign (1 to 8 hour duration)—barring things like Aura of Life, which isn't a base Sorcerer spell—then it's only ~19%.

Heightened Spell benefits ~52% of Sorcerer spells, though the spells that generally receive the most benefit (3rd level and higher) narrow it to ~33%.

Quickened Spell "benefits" ~91% of Sorcerer spells, though the true beneficiary is whatever you plan to use your Action on. Something like ~10% of spells give you something repeatable to do with your Action; for a typical Sorcerer, these are the ones that make the most of Quicken Spell.

Seeking Spell benefits just ~9% of Sorcerer spells.

Subtle Spell benefits 100% of Sorcerer spells, and achieves imperceptibility for 50% of Sorcerer spells.

Transmuted Spell benefits ~22% of Sorcerer spells, a surprisingly low number.

Twinned Spell benefits ~26% of Sorcerer spells. That number drops to ~21% if we filter out spells that become ineligible when upcast.

The percentage of spells a metamagic works with is pretty much irrelevant.

Careful Magic works with Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. Twinning works with Haste, Polymorph and Greater Invisibility. These are some of the best level 3 and level 4 spells, and they become incredible with metamagic.

[Kane0]

The percentage of spells a metamagic works with is pretty much irrelevant.

Careful Magic works with Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. Twinning works with Haste, Polymorph and Greater Invisibility. These are some of the best level 3 and level 4 spells, and they become incredible with metamagic.

Not irrelevant at all. If you can only pick two to three MMs and each one affects only say 20% of spells you can choose from, and that list is already a smaller version of another... well that certainly impacts variety.

Edit: of course this doesnt change anything about the argument of raw power, but it is useful data when talking about versatility, build variety and user-friendliness.

[ZRN]

And once again we see the utter pointlessness of comparing a class to the wizard.

(snip)

If you want to make a case then you need a broader evidence base. Compare its power to all the classes. Is it more powerful than the rogue? than the barbarian? than the fighter, the ranger, the monk or the cleric? There existing one class of 12 that is better proves simply that there is one class better. Generalising from there being one class better to "X class is underpowered and needs a buff/have its key weakness removed" is what one might call A Bit of a Stretch.

I feel like the OP has a pretty good "evidence base" here: there's an officially published and widely liked pair of subclasses, Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul, that grant bloodline spells with some flexible restrictions. Thousands of people are playing those subclasses and the only public responses I've seen are pretty positive. We don't even need to have a big discussion about the ideal power level of the sorcerer class; we can just say, "AB and CS are good and popular, so let's make the other subclasses about the same."

If you think, say, the storm sorcerer subclass is balanced with the AB and CS... well, that's a minority opinion, I'd say. If you think it doesn't matter that storm sorcerer is way weaker, and the guy who wants to play Storm from X-Men should suck it up and be half as many spells as the guy who wants to play Jean Grey... that also seems like a minority opinion. If you're just against homebrew balances fixes on general principle, I get it, but then why stick around to argue?

If you think the AB and CS are TOO powerful... well, then YOU'RE the one disagreeing with the game designers and popular opinion, so the burden of proof is probably on you, right?

[heavyfuel]

Thousands of people are playing those subclasses and the only public responses I've seen are pretty positive.

People like to play strong characters and don't like feeling like they shot themselves in the foot by choosing a clearly subpar option. Nothing new here.

[jas61292]

If you think the AB and CS are TOO powerful... well, then YOU'RE the one disagreeing with the game designers and popular opinion, so the burden of proof is probably on you, right?

Game designers? Maybe. Public opinion? I'm not so sure. I have seen many people say these subclasses are too strong, and even many people who enjoy them admit its partially because they are overturned. People like being strong. Shocking. Enjoying them and thinking they are balanced are not necessarily the same thing.

You need look no further than the Hexblade to see that. Easily the worst piece of subclass design they have put out in 5e (in my opinion) and clearly unbalanced to anyone who has a basic understanding of game design principles. It is also hugely popular online, largely because the people who discuss things online play in environments where everything is allowed, and being the strongest you can is valued. But even a massive portion of the people who use it on every other build know its not balanced.

Besides, if something is too weak, good game design principles would say that you should fix it, not simply make something new and hope people forget the old. Wizards has not been following good game design principles for a while now. The fact that something is published in an official book is not a good measure of actual balance.

[MrStabby]

I feel like the OP has a pretty good "evidence base" here: there's an officially published and widely liked pair of subclasses, Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul, that grant bloodline spells with some flexible restrictions. Thousands of people are playing those subclasses and the only public responses I've seen are pretty positive. We don't even need to have a big discussion about the ideal power level of the sorcerer class; we can just say, "AB and CS are good and popular, so let's make the other subclasses about the same."

If you think, say, the storm sorcerer subclass is balanced with the AB and CS... well, that's a minority opinion, I'd say. If you think it doesn't matter that storm sorcerer is way weaker, and the guy who wants to play Storm from X-Men should suck it up and be half as many spells as the guy who wants to play Jean Grey... that also seems like a minority opinion. If you're just against homebrew balances fixes on general principle, I get it, but then why stick around to argue?

If you think the AB and CS are TOO powerful... well, then YOU'RE the one disagreeing with the game designers and popular opinion, so the burden of proof is probably on you, right?

Well the OP was actually the one disagreeing with the game designers. The game designers decided what was an appropriate spell list for the draconic, wild, shadow, storm and divine soul sorcerer - the OP disagreed. By your rules the burden of proof is on them, something they need to still do... at least to a greater extent than waving round the wizard class.

And as to popularity - again a risk of a very biased metric. Look at hexblade warlock - both the most hated and the most discussed (in terms of building a character) warlock since it was released. And what to do with a class that is fun to play with but diminished the fun of everyone else at the table? Do you just look to the people who play it and conclude it is well designed? Or do you also listen to the people who played alongside it and had less fun as a result?

And I am not saying that the aberrant mind sorcerer is balanced with the storm sorcerer. That is a very imaginative perspective you have on what I have written. I am saying that aberrant mind is more powerful AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM. The previous sorcerers were safely in the middle of the pack in terms of power - right where a well balanced class should be.

And no, I am not against homebrew when it is appropriate. Indeed I even explicitly say so, even making suggestions. What I am against is Bad Homebrew that clearly exceeds the power level of the median class.

[adb82]

I think the problem here is about prospectives.

Is CS and AB stronger than other subclasses? Yes.

Are they stronger than than a wizard? Probably no.

This said, in my opinion, is the wizard to be overpowered and not the sorcerer to be underpowered, but as is overpowered a lore bard or the Druid for certain aspects. The sorcerer was in a mid range of power, that was ok. Honestly if i was in the designers i would had added something to meta megic more than spells that make the sorcerer look more still more like a wizard but, and here i think we have the real problem with the sorcerer, making stronger metamagic will make still more broke all the overbroken multiclass you can create with a sorcerer, adding spells it hurt less from this point. Make him cast with Int also wont help, because than a wizard/sorcerer become god, wis? Probably worst than Cha as well...sometimes i think can be better make sorcerers cast only by sorcery points (adding more SP of course), still give them a limited spell list, and adding some metamagic powers, so that they cant be picked for additional smites, because they wouldnt provide any spell slot, they keep having the same spell they have now, but they can be more detailled and different from other casters with matamagic powers and sorcery points, that make them unique.

[sophontteks]

I think the problem here is about prospectives.

Is CS and AB stronger than other subclasses? Yes.

Are they stronger than than a wizard? Probably no.

This said, in my opinion, is the wizard to be overpowered and not the sorcerer to be underpowered, but as is overpowered a lore bard or the Druid for certain aspects. The sorcerer was in a mid range of power, that was ok. Honestly if i was in the designers i would had added something to meta megic more than spells that make the sorcerer look more still more like a wizard but, and here i think we have the real problem with the sorcerer, making stronger metamagic will make still more broke all the overbroken multiclass you can create with a sorcerer, adding spells it hurt less from this point. Make him cast with Int also wont help, because than a wizard/sorcerer become god, wis? Probably worst than Cha as well...sometimes i think can be better make sorcerers cast only by sorcery points (adding more SP of course), still give them a limited spell list, and adding some metamagic powers, so that they cant be picked for additional smites, because they wouldnt provide any spell slot, they keep having the same spell they have now, but they can be more detailled and different from other casters with matamagic powers and sorcery points, that make them unique.
In a game that heavily favors the side with better action economy, the metamagic we already have is extremely effective.

A sorcerer can quicken mind silver and cast a CC spell, empower a low roll fireball. twin two buff spells with 1 action, or evade being counterspelled with subtle.

Wizards only compete via. Spells known. On a turn-for-turn comparison, sorcerers are much stronger.

And naturally I oppose giving all the subclasses the strongest parts of the tasha sorcerers. Tasha sorcerers are already extremely strong, but some of the better subclasses have far more impressive abilities on top of that. The tasha sorcerer abilities are a bit meh.

Maybe 1-2 spells for the weaker ones. This would already be a huge boost in power. No need to give the same number.

[ZRN]

\
And I am not saying that the aberrant mind sorcerer is balanced with the storm sorcerer. That is a very imaginative perspective you have on what I have written. I am saying that aberrant mind is more powerful AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM. The previous sorcerers were safely in the middle of the pack in terms of power - right where a well balanced class should be.

And no, I am not against homebrew when it is appropriate. Indeed I even explicitly say so, even making suggestions. What I am against is Bad Homebrew that clearly exceeds the power level of the median class.

Okay, thank you - that helps clarify your position for me. You don't like the aberrant mind because you think it's too powerful, meaning you disagree with the (current) designers in this case.

I think it's weird that you define "Bad Homebrew" as anything that "exceeds the power level of the median class," when we're talking about homebrew SUBclasses. Would that mean that a balanced ranger subclass would have to be blatantly more powerful than all existing ranger subclasses to bring them "up to par," while a balanced wizard subclass would have to be actively worse than no subclass at all, to lower the power level of the wizard class?

I feel like it's far more reasonable to say that "bad homebrew" is a new option that invalidates other options by being too good. Homebrewing storm sorcerers with some extra spells wouldn't invalidate anything, because (if done carefully) it would only bring that subclass up to par with the only currently competitive sorcerer subclasses, which are aberrant mind and clockwork soul.

In short, if your argument is that AB and CS are busted and shouldn't be in the game, that's a reasonable argument, but (a) the burden of proof is on you to establish why the developers are wrong and the most popular Unearthed Arcana subclass ever is actually bad for the game, and (b) to a point your argument is moot, because the book's already printed and a bunch of people ARE going to play those subclasses. They're now official content, which means any homebrew is going to have to be balanced against them, not against an ideal of how powerful each class should be.

[adb82]

In a game that heavily favors the side with better action economy, the metamagic we already have is extremely effective.

A sorcerer can quicken mind silver and cast a CC spell, empower a low roll fireball. twin two buff spells with 1 action, or evade being counterspelled with subtle.

Wizards only compete via. Spells known. On a turn-for-turn comparison, sorcerers are much stronger.

And naturally I oppose giving all the subclasses the strongest parts of the tasha sorcerers. Tasha sorcerers are already extremely strong, but some of the better subclasses have far more impressive abilities on top of that. The tasha sorcerer abilities are a bit meh.

Maybe 1-2 spells for the weaker ones. This would already be a huge boost in power. No need to give the same number.

Well, wizards compete also with a better spell list than sorcerers, plus the versatility is really a strong stuff, doesnt matter a turn for turn comparison, because in the general economy wizards are better so far...but this is not a problem as they are created for be different and as sorcerer is not underpowered compared with all the other classes (and i dont think it need a so urgent boost honestly), i dont see any problem about it. What i mean is, i think that if they thought that the sorcerer need an upgrade, its not adding spells that the thing will be solved, but making the class totally different from wizards (bcs they are too similar in many aspects and thats why i would add more metamagic and make they cast only with sorcery points, without spell slots, so to avoid also many OP multiclass and make a class that finally can be considered totally different from a wizard.

[Kane0]

In short, if your argument is that AB and CS are busted and shouldn't be in the game, that's a reasonable argument, but (a) the burden of proof is on you to establish why the developers are wrong and the most popular Unearthed Arcana subclass ever is actually bad for the game, and (b) to a point your argument is moot, because the book's already printed and a bunch of people ARE going to play those subclasses. They're now official content, which means any homebrew is going to have to be balanced against them, not against an ideal of how powerful each class should be.

Fairly certain A has been covered in multiple previous threads, one less than a week ago. Basically because these two are better than at least three other sorc choices it functionally reduces variety over time.
Also if you want to use a 3.Xism raising more classes to tier 1-2 because a minority are already there makes things more balanced but is also power creep, and that negatively impacts the game.

In regards to B, I find it very common to homebrew on existing content to equalize it, and that tends to be more commonly used at the table than entirely new content in my experience. Existing content is no barrier to homebrew, in fact it is quite a good springboard.

[sophontteks]

Well, wizards compete also with a better spell list than sorcerers, plus the versatility is really a strong stuff, doesnt matter a turn for turn comparison, because in the general economy wizards are better so far...but this is not a problem as they are created for be different and as sorcerer is not underpowered compared with all the other classes (and i dont think it need a so urgent boost honestly), i dont see any problem about it. What i mean is, i think that if they thought that the sorcerer need an upgrade, its not adding spells that the thing will be solved, but making the class totally different from wizards (bcs they are too similar in many aspects and thats why i would add more metamagic and make they cast only with sorcery points, without spell slots, so to avoid also many OP multiclass and make a class that finally can be considered totally different from a wizard.
That's exactly right. The wizards better spell list is especially apparent pre-level 5. Sorcerers have very bad level 1 spells especially, and their known spells is pretty paltry. And this is all evened out by the incredible action economy a sorcerer has with their limited spells. It made them pretty balanced, depending a bit on the subclasses. I also strongly believe making a good sorcerer is much more difficult. A sorcerer who doesn't choose their spells and metamagics wisely will be very underpowered.

I don't think they are very similar, but we do see a lot of sorcerers trying to be wizards, and failing at it pretty bad. If a sorcerer is done right they play very differently, because they break the rules on spellcasting. Another common problem sorcerers have is picking bad matamagics. Like the common mistake of only taking expensive stuff like twinned and quicken, while ignoring the most cost-effecient ones like subtle and empowered.

You don't see a lot of good sorcerers, but the tough decision-making is a part of their appeal for me.

Tasha's sorcerers have access to wizard and warlock spell lists along with a huge pile of additional spells known. They really can fill the role of a wizard quite well while retaining that sorcerer action economy. It makes them really strong, and much more accessible to newer players. On the plus side I think it's great that they made a couple subclasses for sorcerers that are noob-friendly, though vets can really make these subclasses nasty. Still, I feel that I can make very competitive sorcerers from the shadow sorcery subclass, and draconic. Wild magic requires help with the DM. Some of the others are a bit weak IMO (though lots of classes have this issue).

I wouldn't want to see this given to all the subclasses. I agree that this is treading on wizards way too much.

[Segev]

sorcerer action economy

Are you referring to Quicken Spell and Twin Spell, or to something else/more than those? If something else/more, what?

If you're just referring to those, Quicken Spell is less awesome than you might expect due to not actually permitting two leveled spells in the same turn (and sorcerers having nothing particularly special to use the main action for, so probably just toss out a cantrip or something). And Twin Spell can do interesting things, but is still pretty narrow.

That also means locking down one or both of your initial metamagics, and you only get something like 4 or 6 throughout your career, so they're not exactly "class features" so much as "possibilities." If they're crucial to this "sorcerer action economy" then they're forced picks, and that's also bad design.

[MrStabby]

I think twin spell can be excellent (less sold on quicken spell), especially at higher levels. On something like a draconic sorcerer with twinned ray of frost adding Cha to damage you have a very effective, low cost alternative to levelled spells. I see this as a serious attraction - sorcery points just buying spells are very inefficient. A single sorcery point to make your cantrips effective as a levelled spell is actually quite eficient. And sorcerers know a lot of cantrips.

Totally agree that it is easy to foul up a sorcerer - a lot of the reasons people find them low power is that they are built ineffectively (often through choice rather than any lack of knowledge, capability or experience). Sorcerers often appeal to those that want to blast and it leads to a very unrewarding outcome or people build round too narrow a theme (from the perspective of optimisation; from the perspecitve of fun they nail it).

[adb82]

That's exactly right. The wizards better spell list is especially apparent pre-level 5. Sorcerers have very bad level 1 spells especially, and their known spells is pretty paltry. And this is all evened out by the incredible action economy a sorcerer has with their limited spells. It made them pretty balanced, depending a bit on the subclasses. I also strongly believe making a good sorcerer is much more difficult. A sorcerer who doesn't choose their spells and metamagics wisely will be very underpowered.

I don't think they are very similar, but we do see a lot of sorcerers trying to be wizards, and failing at it pretty bad. If a sorcerer is done right they play very differently, because they break the rules on spellcasting. Another common problem sorcerers have is picking bad matamagics. Like the common mistake of only taking expensive stuff like twinned and quicken, while ignoring the most cost-effecient ones like subtle and empowered.

You don't see a lot of good sorcerers, but the tough decision-making is a part of their appeal for me.

Tasha's sorcerers have access to wizard and warlock spell lists along with a huge pile of additional spells known. They really can fill the role of a wizard quite well while retaining that sorcerer action economy. It makes them really strong, and much more accessible to newer players. On the plus side I think it's great that they made a couple subclasses for sorcerers that are noob-friendly, though vets can really make these subclasses nasty. Still, I feel that I can make very competitive sorcerers from the shadow sorcery subclass, and draconic. Wild magic requires help with the DM. Some of the others are a bit weak IMO (though lots of classes have this issue).

I wouldn't want to see this given to all the subclasses. I agree that this is treading on wizards way too much.

I mean, they can basically cover similar roles and the way they do it its too similar in my opinion.

Im totally agree that make a good sorcerer its much more difficult than make a good wizard, as im agree that with shadow sorcerer can be done very competitive builds and its problably still stronger than tasha's sorcerers. But my point with Tasha's sorcerers anyway its not they are OP, its about i dont like them as flavor, because they looks too much like wizards with metamagic...in my opinion the class should go in a total different way far from wizard and not create subclasses for do something similar to a wizard. Metamagic is what characterize sorcerer more, so metamagic is where i would add class features to the subclasses and the idea to make their spell capacity relayed to sorcery points and not to spell slots came to my mind for avoid sorcadins and sorolock (or anyway balance them), that are the real way to make a sorcerer OP, something that dont work with any multiclass for a wizard.

[MaxWilson]

Are you referring to Quicken Spell and Twin Spell, or to something else/more than those? If something else/more, what?

If you're just referring to those, Quicken Spell is less awesome than you might expect due to not actually permitting two leveled spells in the same turn (and sorcerers having nothing particularly special to use the main action for, so probably just toss out a cantrip or something). And Twin Spell can do interesting things, but is still pretty narrow.

Agreed. IMO Quicken Spell is best for (1) Sorlocks who have lots of invocations invested in making their cantrip awesome (e.g. Web + Quickened Agonizing Repelling Blast to blast enemies into it so they have to make an immediate saving throw AND one at the start of their next turn), and (2) gishes, like a Paladin who attacks twice and then sheathes his sword and casts Quickened Protection From Evil to avoid retaliation (with a Shield ready in case the demon gets lucky).

[Segev]

Sorcerers do seem to have a little bit of "master of cantrips" in their design. It'd be nice if there were ways to adapt them more uniquely than metamagic permits.

I say this frequently in these kinds of topics, but it seems like the Sorcerer was meant to be the guy who could do things like use burning hands to assist his jumps, runs, or even flight, but that metamagic just isn't quite doing the job.

[Cikomyr2]

Sorcerers do seem to have a little bit of "master of cantrips" in their design. It'd be nice if there were ways to adapt them more uniquely than metamagic permits.

I say this frequently in these kinds of topics, but it seems like the Sorcerer was meant to be the guy who could do things like use burning hands to assist his jumps, runs, or even flight, but that metamagic just isn't quite doing the job.

It's weird, because I always thought the Warlock should be the "master of cantrips", with their invocation that could boost a can trip's power

[Asmerv]

It's weird, because I always thought the Warlock should be the "master of cantrips", with their invocation that could boost a can trip's power

Agreed with this. Warlocks seem to go for 'master of at-wills' with their Invocations that grant infinite uses of spells and boosting cantrip power. I'd have liked to see them have a large selection to complement.

On the topic of sorcerer. Yes, the initial design was 'Limited spells selection that can be boosted in various ways via metamagic to make up the difference'. However, how metamagic is implemented destroyed this in practice. Yes, there are some powerful combos, but they are so limited that you're basically building your character around it. If you're grabbing Twin, you will be using Haste, Polymorph, Greater Invis etc. This is powerful, sure, but not flexible. Barring Divine Soul there's a handful of spells that work with twin, and for some reason they keep narrowing the list of spells that can be twinned in Sage Advice as if it wasn't limited enough already.

For the initial design to have worked, metamagic should have been much more broadly applicable. For example, instead of Twin we could have had (spitballing here) 'Split Spell, works on all spells that are not Self. If spell has one target, it can affect two targets. If it is an AoE, it can originate from two points but cannot affect a creature more than once. If it affects multiple targets, it affects an extra target.' Similarly, you could merge/redesign some of the metamagics to be much more broadly applicable, so that you don't have to pick out these limited metamagic-spell combos like Twin-Haste.

However that ship has sailed, so at this point I'd rather take Metamagic Adept and a larger known spell pool so I can at least play with some toys.

[PhantomSoul]

It's weird, because I always thought the Warlock should be the "master of cantrips", with their invocation that could boost a can trip's power

Ah, see, the sorcerer could be the "master of cantrips", while the warlock is just the "master of cantrip".

[MaxWilson]

For the initial design to have worked, metamagic should have been much more broadly applicable. For example, instead of Twin we could have had (spitballing here) 'Split Spell, works on all spells that are not Self. If spell has one target, it can affect two targets. If it is an AoE, it can originate from two points but cannot affect a creature more than once. If it affects multiple targets, it affects an extra target.' Similarly, you could merge/redesign some of the metamagics to be much more broadly applicable, so that you don't have to pick out these limited metamagic-spell combos like Twin-Haste.


Even stuff like Extended Shield and Extended Animate Dead wouldn't have been unreasonable--they should leave just let Extended work on anything that's not instantaneous instead of giving it a one minute minimum and 24 hour maximum.

[Merudo]

(e.g. Web + Quickened Agonizing Repelling Blast to blast enemies into it so they have to make an immediate saving throw AND one at the start of their next turn)

How does it work exactly? Web only triggers on the enemy's turn.

Also, it's Web that must be quickened, not the Eldritch Blast. You can't cast leveled spells in the same turn you cast a bonus action spell.

[Merudo]

That's exactly right. The wizards better spell list is especially apparent pre-level 5.

Actually, the Wizard's better spell list is especially apparent for all levels, except level 5-8.

At level 9 the Wizard gets Wall of Force, at level 11 they get Contingency, at level 13 they get Simulacrum. If anything, the gap between Sorcerer and Wizard widens considerably at higher levels.


im agree that with shadow sorcerer can be done very competitive builds and its problably still stronger than tasha's sorcerers

Curious why you think that is? The hound is a decent enough against strong solo-targets, but that's hardly a compensation for the hugely expended repertoire of the Clockwise Soul and Aberrant Mind.

[MaxWilson]

How does it work exactly? Web only triggers on the enemy's turn.

Also, it's Web that must be quickened, not the Eldritch Blast. You can't cast leveled spells in the same turn you cast a bonus action spell.

You're right of course that it's Web that must be Quickened, I said it backwards.

Sorry for picking a bad example. You can't do this with Web, I forgot. But do use this combo with Sickening Radiance, Evard's Black Tentacles, Symbol of Death/Insanity/etc., Cloudkill, etc.

[MoiMagnus]

The whole point is that for *these* thematic spell, the sorcerer should just naturally throw them around.

I didn't test AM sorcerer, but my intuition is that the capacity to switch out those spells with any spell of the same school (which is quite large) defeats this purpose.

IMO, one of the points of giving subclass spells to the sorcerer is to give them spells that they would never have picked because they are objectively bad outside of very specific circumstances, but that are thematic with the subclass so it's easier to give them for free than to buff the spells.

Also, I fundamentally dislike restrictions like "you get those features and you don't get a choice, but you can swap them at level up, but only swap one of them at level up", but I'm not sure why.

[Cikomyr2]

I didn't test AM sorcerer, but my intuition is that the capacity to switch out those spells with any spell of the same school (which is quite large) defeats this purpose.

Well.. no, I disagree with that. The school restriction allows for the thematics to play. You can have "necromantic" sorcerer, you can have "Evoker" sorcerer. Or "Lightning Spells" sorcerer.


IMO, one of the points of giving subclass spells to the sorcerer is to give them spells that they would never have picked because they are objectively bad outside of very specific circumstances, but that are thematic with the subclass so it's easier to give them for free than to buff the spells.

I see it the other way around. The bonus spells should be the bread and butter of the sorcerer's use. It allows to realize the power moves you want to have. The "normal" spells from the sorcerer list can allow you to have certain utilities now that you are much less restricted in your use.

I'd see a Red Dragon sorcerer to pick Fireball as one of his Bonus Spell. It just makes thematic sense.


Also, I fundamentally dislike restrictions like "you get those features and you don't get a choice, but you can swap them at level up, but only swap one of them at level up", but I'm not sure why.

Well.. I can't argue over a feeling. I like that feature a lot, because it allows thematics while restricting the level of flexibility.

[ZRN]

I didn't test AM sorcerer, but my intuition is that the capacity to switch out those spells with any spell of the same school (which is quite large) defeats this purpose.


I'd be interested to see what a spell loadout for an "optimized" AM looks like. Mine has very few spells that aren't thematically centered around telepathy or telekinesis, and these rules (while finicky) work pretty well for that.

[MaxWilson]

I didn't test AM sorcerer, but my intuition is that the capacity to switch out those spells with any spell of the same school (which is quite large) defeats this purpose.

It's not the "same school," it's only specifically Enchantment and Divination spells. E.g. Summon Aberration is a conjuration spell, but you can't swap it for another conjuration spell--it's Summon Aberration or nothing, w/rt conjuration spells in that slot. In practice this makes those default spells worth keeping in many cases.

[mangosta71]

I like the bonus spells. It's great that they allow a sorcerer to have spells that are thematic but so situational that a sorcerer wouldn't normally pick up. I wish every subclass got something along those lines, or at least some benefit to casting spells that fit the theme of the subclass, though I agree that being able to swap out those spells is OP.

Maybe for draconic and storm, they get one bonus spell of levels 1-5, and once per short rest they can upcast one of their theme spells for free (for example, use a fourth-level slot to cast a fifth-level storm sphere).

Another alternative would be to completely retool the sorcerer class to make it more similar to the 3.5 psion - sorcery points instead of slots, assign a cost for each spell based on spell level, limit the number of points that can be spent on a spell by class level, etc

[Snails]

It seems logical to me that a class which can swap out spells on a whim would prepare fewer spells per day than a class that has its known spells (mostly) locked in.

Personally, I like the idea of more thematic sorcerers like the Aberrant Mind.