access to +damage / attack spell for EK Fighter

[da newt]

My lvl 8 EK would benefit from a spell like HEX, HM, or even Divine Favor. We level up very slowly (1 yr into weekly game). Is there a good way to get access to something like that?



My PC doesn't have the INT or CHA to dip, but does have WIS. The only thing I can come up with is a dip into War Cleric for Divine Favor, but then BLESS would be much more beneficial.

Fey Touched will work great, but it's going to be months before we hit lvl 12 ...

[nickl_2000]

Can you get ahold of a Ring of Spell Storing and have an ally cast Hex/Hunter's Mark in there? That is what we did as a party and it was amazing on our EK.

[Eldariel]

Well, Shadow Blade is the cream de la crop option for an EK. Once you get level 3 spells you obviously get Haste or Spirit Shroud. If you aren't satisfied with those, Fey-Touched can pick up Hex (it's an enchantment) as a recastable option. There isn't really much else available. I'd just go with the innate Wizard option, really.

[MrStabby]

My lvl 8 EK would benefit from a spell like HEX, HM, or even Divine Favor. We level up very slowly (1 yr into weekly game). Is there a good way to get access to something like that?



My PC doesn't have the INT or CHA to dip, but does have WIS. The only thing I can come up with is a dip into War Cleric for Divine Favor, but then BLESS would be much more beneficial.

Fey Touched will work great, but it's going to be months before we hit lvl 12 ...

Well as you say, Fey touched would be ideal... if you are level 8 you will have just taken an ASI so maybe ask your DM if you can respec?

[Corran]

Another vote for shadow blade. It's pretty great on EK's.
Edit: If you were just looking for an alternative that uses a lower level slot, well, I have to say dont bother. Just be more mindful of how you can use your slots, so in other words save those 2nd level SB slots for when it really matters upping your damage, and try to find ways to live without it when you are not using those slots.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm DMing a player in DiA with a 7th level Arcane Trickster with largely the same issue. He has a magic weapon, so the first thing that happens if he takes Shadow Blade is that he hits less often. Also Mirror Image isn't a concentration spell, so the added benefits of using this instead are the ability to concentrate on something else and he won't lose his concentration.
I know some people rave about shadow blade, and I can see how it can be good if you are in dim light/darkness a lot and/or don't have a magic weapon. The AT has a lot of rider damage, so the math might favor an EK getting this more even with a magic weapon. For me though, SB is pretty underwealming when you compare to things like Hex and Hunter's Mark that last AN HOUR, are 1st level spells, and can stack with magic weapons.

[LudicSavant]

My lvl 8 EK would benefit from a spell like HEX, HM, or even Divine Favor. We level up very slowly (1 yr into weekly game). Is there a good way to get access to something like that?

My PC doesn't have the INT or CHA to dip, but does have WIS. The only thing I can come up with is a dip into War Cleric for Divine Favor, but then BLESS would be much more beneficial.

Fey Touched will work great, but it's going to be months before we hit lvl 12 ...

Here's a Shadow Blade build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24681222&postcount=523). Shadow Blade shines best in games where you don't think that you'll ever be able to pick up, say, a Flame Blade magic item.

[da newt]

Thanks all.

The last fight before we leveled up to 8, my PC found a magic rapier. As he completed his long rest, learned a new spell from any school (Shadow Blade), choose an ASI (+2 Dex for 20 total), and retrained to Blind Fighting Style, he also attuned to the new weapon and in the morning learned it was a flame tongue sword...

Since then we haven't had a fight where it wasn't well lit if not in direct sunlight. I haven't cast Shadow Blade yet.

We gain a new level every 8-12 sessions, so it will be a while before he could snag another Feat.

[LudicSavant]

he also attuned to the new weapon and in the morning learned it was a flame tongue sword...


Shadow Blade shines best in games where you don't think that you'll ever be able to pick up, say, a Flame Blade magic item.

RIP. Well there's always Spirit Shroud and Holy Weapon. Or Fey-Touched for Hex. https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

A vision blocker + Blind-Fighting is a good way to use Concentration, too (note: Optimal use of vision blockers requires a small modicum of teamwork).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Thanks all.

The last fight before we leveled up to 8, my PC found a magic rapier. As he completed his long rest, learned a new spell from any school (Shadow Blade), choose an ASI (+2 Dex for 20 total), and retrained to Blind Fighting Style, he also attuned to the new weapon and in the morning learned it was a flame tongue sword...

Since then we haven't had a fight where it wasn't well lit if not in direct sunlight. I haven't cast Shadow Blade yet.

We gain a new level every 8-12 sessions, so it will be a while before he could snag another Feat.

Perhaps the next thread should be entitled: Why Shadow Blade is a Trap...

[LudicSavant]

Perhaps the next thread should be entitled: Why Shadow Blade is a Trap...

It's not a trap. You can swap out the spell as soon as you find a Flame Blade.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It's not a trap. You can swap out the spell as soon as you find a Flame Blade.

When you gain a level.
And I don't think it's that bad. I do have a tough time seeing it as good when I consider other comparable 1st level spells that other classes get, or other 2nd level spells that an EK or AT could get. I regularly got 2-4 encounters out of my Hunter's Mark spell on top of having a magic bow with my Ranger.
SB is probably situational/ campaign dependent, and gets better in games with lots of darkness, little magic, and few encounters.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Don’t know if it’s possible to work upon races in your campaign, but Mark of Finding (available to Humans and Half-Orcs) grants you Hunter’s Mark and the new UA race Hexblooded also grants you the Hex spell.

Not that you found a Flame-Tongue Sword, Shadow Blade doesn’t worth the slot, I probably would start concentrating on Blur or Protect from Good and Evil.

[Eldariel]

SB still has a reason to exist even with FB: whenever you're fighting fire resistant things, SB is already better and if you're fighting fire immune or piercing (in this case) resistant or whatever enemies, SB is great. As we all know, fire resistance is almost an epidemic in this game so these advantages combined with the (heh) automatic advantage in darker environments certainly gives Shadow Blade use even compared to good magical weapons. Of course, at that point you probably do want to switch it out once you hit 3rd level spells (for Spirit Shroud or Haste) latest since it does lose much of its utility when you have a strong magic weapon. But as long as you've got it, there's a chance you'll get to make use of it.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

SB still has a reason to exist even with FB: whenever you're fighting fire resistant things, SB is already better and if you're fighting fire immune or piercing (in this case) resistant or whatever enemies, SB is great. As we all know, fire resistance is almost an epidemic in this game so these advantages combined with the (heh) automatic advantage in darker environments certainly gives Shadow Blade use even compared to good magical weapons. Of course, at that point you probably do want to switch it out once you hit 3rd level spells (for Spirit Shroud or Haste) latest since it does lose much of its utility when you have a strong magic weapon. But as long as you've got it, there's a chance you'll get to make use of it.

Beyond just deficiencies compared to similar spells that other classes get (which I covered in the other post) I think there are other limitations to SB that need a mention. The big one for EK is that it's a one handed weapon. Now, I'm not one of those people who think that S+B is bad; in many cases it's quite good. It's excellent when you have limited number of attacks (say like a Paladin), a lot of rider damage, (say like a Paladin), and either don't cast spells or can use a shield as a focus (say like a Paladin). S+B also doesn't work out too bad if the "S" stands for spear and you have PAM. Unfortunately none of these things applies to EK who goes SB. Yes, you can take Warcaster just to make it function, but that's largely redundant as you have Con saves and likely a good Con. Beyond that you probably need another Martial type feat to be good at... Martial Stuff; Defensive Duelist isn't bad if you are Dex based, or Shield Master can be good depending on table ruling.
At some point though if a player's long term plan is to shift out of using SB, then they have to be conscious of not spending precious feats and fighting styles on things that won't provide any benefit once they get 3 attacks per round and at least moderately powerful magic weapons are the norm. Perhaps a SB 'build' isn't a trap, but it certainly limits options for an EK in ways I would consider sub-optimal.

[Eldariel]

Beyond just deficiencies compared to similar spells that other classes get (which I covered in the other post) I think there are other limitations to SB that need a mention. The big one for EK is that it's a one handed weapon. Now, I'm not one of those people who think that S+B is bad; in many cases it's quite good. It's excellent when you have limited number of attacks (say like a Paladin), a lot of rider damage, (say like a Paladin), and either don't cast spells or can use a shield as a focus (say like a Paladin). S+B also doesn't work out too bad if the "S" stands for spear and you have PAM. Unfortunately none of these things applies to EK who goes SB. Yes, you can take Warcaster just to make it function, but that's largely redundant as you have Con saves and likely a good Con. Beyond that you probably need another Martial type feat to be good at... Martial Stuff; Defensive Duelist isn't bad if you are Dex based, or Shield Master can be good depending on table ruling.
At some point though if a player's long term plan is to shift out of using SB, then they have to be conscious of not spending precious feats and fighting styles on things that won't provide any benefit once they get 3 attacks per round and at least moderately powerful magic weapons are the norm. Perhaps a SB 'build' isn't a trap, but it certainly limits options for an EK in ways I would consider sub-optimal.

Eh, even if you have Con save proficiency, once you get a big higher up you definitely want Warcaster since, particularly as a frontliner, you'll be taking a lot of big hits (dragon breaths, giant attacks, etc.) and you have very limited spell slots so you don't want to go around losing Concentration too often. When taking those 40+ damage hits, the checks can easily be DC 20+, so +9 and advantage is baseline for having a reasonable shot at maintaining concentration. Plus, since you're a frontliner, the ability to OA with something that actually hurts (such as BB) instead of just a standard OA makes you much better at forcing enemies to stick to you. And since this is a Rapier user, it's probably already Sword & Boarding so this is all kind of given in these circumstances. Of course, even without Warcaster, since resummoning Shadow Blade is a bonus action you can always just throw it as your last attack or drop it or whatever to have an empty hand for casting off-turn burning your bonus action on resummoning it next round (but that does prevent OAs so not that great).

Dueling Shadow Blade is actually quite competitive with basically anything (including GWM + PAM) in damage, especially once you get 3rd level slots for 3d8 Shadow Blade. And then there's the Advantage part too. High base damage weapon on the class with the largest number of consistent attacks actually synergises incredibly well. Level 11 Dueling Eldritch Knight using level 2 Shadow Blade gets (2d8+7)*3 on 11 at +9 to hit with a fairly good chance for advantage. Vs. AC 17 (pretty typical for this level) it's 52 DPR in dim light or 36 DPR otherwise. Meanwhile, GWM/PAM Glaive EK is looking at 36 DPR without advantage, 60 with (so, say, Darkness + Blindfighting). So damage-wise the advantageous GWM/PAM user is ahead (and of course has easy access to the reaction attack though Shadow Blade's reaction attacks are better). If the Shadow Blade user upcasts Shadow Blade to level 3, the damage becomes 46 without advantage or 66 with advantage. If he has EA, that 66 becomes 75. So without magic weapons, Shadow Blade is not only competitive with but potentially even superior to GWM/PAM while allowing you to wield a shield. Of course, it takes your concentration and a spell slot but you get pretty good mileage out of it.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Eh, even if you have Con save proficiency, once you get a big higher up you definitely want Warcaster since, particularly as a frontliner, you'll be taking a lot of big hits (dragon breaths, giant attacks, etc.) and you have very limited spell slots so you don't want to go around losing Concentration too often. When taking those 40+ damage hits, the checks can easily be DC 20+, so +9 and advantage is baseline for having a reasonable shot at maintaining concentration. Plus, since you're a frontliner, the ability to OA with something that actually hurts (such as BB) instead of just a standard OA makes you much better at forcing enemies to stick to you. And since this is a Rapier user, it's probably already Sword & Boarding so this is all kind of given in these circumstances. Of course, even without Warcaster, since resummoning Shadow Blade is a bonus action you can always just throw it as your last attack or drop it or whatever to have an empty hand for casting off-turn burning your bonus action on resummoning it next round (but that does prevent OAs so not that great).

Dueling Shadow Blade is actually quite competitive with basically anything (including GWM + PAM) in damage, especially once you get 3rd level slots for 3d8 Shadow Blade. And then there's the Advantage part too. High base damage weapon on the class with the largest number of consistent attacks actually synergises incredibly well. Level 11 Dueling Eldritch Knight using level 2 Shadow Blade gets (2d8+7)*3 on 11 at +9 to hit with a fairly good chance for advantage. Vs. AC 17 (pretty typical for this level) it's 52 DPR in dim light or 36 DPR otherwise. Meanwhile, GWM/PAM Glaive EK is looking at 36 DPR without advantage, 60 with (so, say, Darkness + Blindfighting). So damage-wise the advantageous GWM/PAM user is ahead (and of course has easy access to the reaction attack though Shadow Blade's reaction attacks are better). If the Shadow Blade user upcasts Shadow Blade to level 3, the damage becomes 46 without advantage or 66 with advantage. If he has EA, that 66 becomes 75. So without magic weapons, Shadow Blade is not only competitive with but potentially even superior to GWM/PAM while allowing you to wield a shield. Of course, it takes your concentration and a spell slot but you get pretty good mileage out of it.

I'm just going to flat out disagree with needing Warcaster, despite that you wrote the word definitely in bold face. Yes, you take some big hits, though some of those are going to be too high to matter anyway. Some will be in the wheelhouse of needing to roll around an 11 where advantage gives max benefit, and many will be on the fringes where it has limited benefit. So far as generic OAs I think this is pretty table dependent. Almost all of ours come from fleeing enemies, so they have limited value. Players with PAM on the other hand are getting a lot of OAs from incoming enemies (which as you say can pair with BB or GFB); this is one of the reasons I rate SB lower. At our table there are just better things to spend ASIs on.

I'll agree generally with your math, but I think lacks context. The EK GWM with a +2 Greatsword or Pole Arm will able to more reliably use the power attack, hit more often, and do more damage than you state. Further, at higher levels if they aren't concentrating on SB they can be using that 3rd level slot for Haste, so that extra attack needs to be factored in.

[HPisBS]

My lvl 8 EK would benefit from a spell like HEX, HM, or even Divine Favor. We level up very slowly (1 yr into weekly game). Is there a good way to get access to something like that?



My PC doesn't have the INT or CHA to dip, but does have WIS. The only thing I can come up with is a dip into War Cleric for Divine Favor, but then BLESS would be much more beneficial.

Fey Touched will work great, but it's going to be months before we hit lvl 12 ...

I'm gonna be the odd man out and suggest a couple of levels in... Ranger.

Now, now. Just hear me out. Tasha's actually makes Ranger dips fairly worthwhile for a martial. The first level gets you a poor man's Hunter's Mark, giving +1d4 for free against Prof. Bonus number of enemies per day. Compare to the Divine Favor spell you pointed out.


Divine Favor
Favored Foe


Concentration
Concentration


+1d4 radiant damage
+1d4 weapon damage


1 minute duration
1 enemy, for 1 minute duration


1st lvl spell slots
Free, PB times / day


Bonus action
No action



Aside from the extra skill proficiency from Ranger 1 Tasha's Canny also gives you expertise in 1 skill. (Athletics to shove and grapple? Stealth for surprise?)

A second lvl gets you the real Hunter's Mark, one other spell (like Absorb Elements or Fog Cloud), and an extra fighting style. A nice combo could be to cast Fog Cloud for some Blind Fighting shenanigans.


And then, the subclasses are just one level beyond that, many of which include free (or free-ish) extra damage options.

[Eldariel]

I'm just going to flat out disagree with needing Warcaster, despite that you wrote the word definitely in bold face. Yes, you take some big hits, though some of those are going to be too high to matter anyway. Some will be in the wheelhouse of needing to roll around an 11 where advantage gives max benefit, and many will be on the fringes where it has limited benefit. So far as generic OAs I think this is pretty table dependent. Almost all of ours come from fleeing enemies, so they have limited value. Players with PAM on the other hand are getting a lot of OAs from incoming enemies (which as you say can pair with BB or GFB); this is one of the reasons I rate SB lower. At our table there are just better things to spend ASIs on.

I'll agree generally with your math, but I think lacks context. The EK GWM with a +2 Greatsword or Pole Arm will able to more reliably use the power attack, hit more often, and do more damage than you state. Further, at higher levels if they aren't concentrating on SB they can be using that 3rd level slot for Haste, so that extra attack needs to be factored in.

Of course magic items help but even then, Shadow Blade remains competitive and you still have a shield and a feat open. And yes, Haste helps but then you don't have a good way to gain advantage, which you really need to make GWM/PAM work (even with a +2 weapon). As such, it's kinda niche to GWM/PAM with Concentration free: generally you should use your Concentration to get Advantage as opposed to boosting your advantageous attacks further (also, don't learn Haste if you don't have Warcaster and preferably Lucky too). Let's raise the comparison by a couple of levels for all of this to be reasonable. EA Dueling level 13 Shadow Blade [from level 3 slot] does 76 DPR vs. AC 18, 73 vs. AC 20. +2 GWM/PAM Glaive 90 DPR vs. AC 18, 80 DPR vs. AC 20. So it does more but it's not like Shadow Blade gets blown out. And Shadow Blade user can still get magic items, just not magic weapons - there's a ton of useful rare magic items that you could have instead of it (depending on how loot is handled).

As for Warcaster, if you're playing a high level caster, regardless of what class, you should get it. I'd take it on 16-19 by latest simply because the number of attacks that can deal ~30-40 damage in a single hit gets so high that you'll be rolling a lot more DC 15-20 Concentration checks. OTOH DC 25+ checks are incredibly rare: as long as you've got Absorb Elements, the number of sources that can deal over 50 damage to you in a single hit (plenty do it in a single turn, but single hit - if you've got Absorb Elements, Ancient Dragons come up short as do basically all spells short of Meteor Swarm, and attacks are even less impressive outside some extremely niche exceptions) is pretty miniscule. Which basically means you'll be rolling (you're not autosucceeding those DC 15-20 checks) but with advantage you've got very reasonable chances of making those checks. Math works out so that for high levels, War Caster is just great. Especially if you also took Lucky to cover for when it fails you (and when enemies crit you). It's an incredible resource and action conserver, especially for those high threat fights.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm gonna be the odd man out and suggest a couple of levels in... Ranger.

Now, now. Just hear me out. Tasha's actually makes Ranger dips fairly worthwhile for a martial. The first level gets you a poor man's Hunter's Mark, giving +1d4 for free against Prof. Bonus number of enemies per day. Compare to the Divine Favor spell you pointed out.


Divine Favor
Favored Foe


Concentration
Concentration


+1d4 radiant damage
+1d4 weapon damage


1 minute duration
1 enemy, for 1 minute duration


1st lvl spell slots
Free, PB times / day


Bonus action
No action



Aside from the extra skill proficiency from Ranger 1 Tasha's Canny also gives you expertise in 1 skill. (Athletics to shove and grapple? Stealth for surprise?)

A second lvl gets you the real Hunter's Mark, one other spell (like Absorb Elements or Fog Cloud), and an extra fighting style. A nice combo could be to cast Fog Cloud for some Blind Fighting shenanigans.


And then, the subclasses are just one level beyond that, many of which include free (or free-ish) extra damage options.

I don't think you are off the mark. Compared to SB, some of the suggestions you've put forth are available quicker (you don't have to wait until 8th level), apply to multiple fighting styles, and can last way longer. I'd consider a casting of Hunter's Mark worth at least 2 castings of SB based on duration alone.