If the Dark One is toast, isn't Hel toast too?

[halfeye]

It's something that's been sort of worrying me, why is Hel on board for restarting the world?

We know that the Dark One only started getting worshipers recently, but even so, that's hundreds of years and ALL the goblins. we also know that Hel has been getting very few of the souls that go to the Northern pantheon, and that's only over the thousands of years that this world has existed. So it seems plausible that Hel would have less souls than the Dark One, would also die if the planet is rebooted, so why is she so keen on that?

[hroþila]

Loki is worried she might not make it, but it's not like he actually expects her to die. Either the chances of her not surviving are low and she deems them an acceptable risk, or she can no longer think clearly. It doesn't mean she's less likely to make it than the Dark One either way.

[ebarde]

Hel is not a new deity like the Dark One, so I imagine she has better odds at surviving the same way as Odin survived going through an entire world without followers whatsoever and still managing to be the head god of his pantheon. The Dark One wouldn't have had as many worlds to prepare, as this would be the first time a world get's unmade. It also might be the case that Hel is more well known and feared than the Dark One, considering how non-goblinoids seem very unaware of goblinoid culture and thus wouldn't be familiar with who they worship.

[BloodSquirrel]

The entire point of Hel's plan is that she would be getting a giant boost from getting all of the dwarf souls, and that the boost would be large enough to not only carry her over, but put her in a dominant position.

[JBiddles]

That's the point of Hel's plan - she's at risk when this world ends either way, so she needs to do something to get enough power to make it until the next world is created, so she sets up this plan so that every dwarf dies dishonourably and goes to her.

[Peelee]

That's the point of Hel's plan - she's at risk when this world ends either way, so she needs to do something to get enough power to make it until the next world is created, so she sets up this plan so that every dwarf dies dishonourably and goes to her.

That would happen on worlds end regardless. The worst thing for her is for this world to continue going, since that gets her starvation diet into overtime. She's just calling J. G. Wentworth because it's her money Dwarven soulpower boost and she needs it now!

[Anymage]

The divine diet comes from belief, worship, souls, and devotions (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html). There's certainly widespread belief in Hel, and The Bet keeps enough souls and devotions headed her way. It's an unbalanced diet lacking in worship, but that doesn't intrinsically mean that she'd be hosed if she had to spend some between worlds time. A different god in a similar situation might be messed up, but could survive and recover in the next world.

Of course you did have her visibly fade somewhat after exerting herself (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1176.html). And in the next comic Loki explicitly says that he's worried that Hel might not make it through. So yes, she is depleted and might not make it across if the world just up and ended tomorrow. So neither Hel nor TDO are guaranteed to be toast, but both are in more precarious positions than they'd like to be.

Edit to add:

That would happen on worlds end regardless. The worst thing for her is for this world to continue going, since that gets her starvation diet into overtime. She's just calling J. G. Wentworth because it's her money Dwarven soulpower boost and she needs it now!

As long as the world keeps going she still has a trickle of belief/devotions/souls. It may not be as much as she likes and the lack of worship will be bad for her, but she isn't at risk of starving to death. The issue comes when a world ends and you get absolutely no sustenance coming in, instead having to rely on your larder. A god who doesn't have enough in the way of reserves is at real risk of starving to death.

In pure headcanon mode I'm also sure that there were gods who burned through their reserves carelessly and wound up starving to death that way, which makes Hel's spending power on direct action even more of a risky move on her part. But here I'm just going into speculative theodymanics that are so far from the main plot that I don't think they'll ever be touched on one way or another.

[ebarde]

I think what OP means is that they're wondering if the world ended TDO wouldn't have a better chance then Hel, considering he'd get every goblinoid souls who certainly must outnumber dwarves by a longshot. To which I can think a few explanations, such as him being a very new god that hasn't been around for nearly as many worlds as Hel which could certainly contribute to her staying power, and also he might be severely lacking in other areas other than souls. I don't think the dark one is as feared as Hel for example, who presents an existencial threat to an entire race and who they are taught to fear from a very early age.

[Goblin_Priest]

The entire point of Hel's plan is that she would be getting a giant boost from getting all of the dwarf souls, and that the boost would be large enough to not only carry her over, but put her in a dominant position.

Well, wouldn't TDO *also* get that huge influx of sudden goblinoid souls? Which probably outnumber dwarf souls?

I get why the snarl destroying the world is bad for TDO. But... what if the gods unmake it themselves? What sets TDO apart from Hel? Why is it lethal for him but empowering for her?

[Peelee]

Well, wouldn't TDO *also* get that huge influx of sudden goblinoid souls? Which probably outnumber dwarf souls?

Yes, and apparently not.

[ebarde]

As I posited earlier, there are lots of aspects in which Hel and the Dark One diverge a lot and any one of those could be responsible for the same thing not applying to him. A gods power doesn't come from just the amount of souls, and also I think the Dark One not being part of any pantheon and being created in this very unique circunstance not even the gods seem to quite grasp yet makes it hard for Thor to guess if he'd survive the world's destruction. His existence I feel is also a lot more tied to this world in specific, Odin went insane from a world where magic was next to none-existant, Dark One's portfolio would be even more restricted, as he isn't as abstract as any of the other gods that weren't ascended from a mortal form.

[Kantaki]

I think one big difference are their domains.
Hel is a goddess of death and disease, which will always be relevant, so even without direct worship and very few souls she still gets something* and as long as she makes it to the next world she'll be fine- even more so if no one finds a work around to Loki's bet.

Meanwhile the Dark One is the racial god of goblins.
Even assuming a few centuries worth of souls are enough to carry him over there might very well be no goblins in the next world.
Maybe it's all living machines or something like that.

*Also, she's part of a established pantheon and been around for several world's. Might help a bit too.

[BloodSquirrel]

Well, wouldn't TDO *also* get that huge influx of sudden goblinoid souls? Which probably outnumber dwarf souls?


Presumably not. TDO might only get goblinoid souls from goblinoids that actually worship him, while Hel gets *all* dwarf souls.

[ebarde]

I also don't think Thor knows what will happen to the Dark One. He was giving his best guess, maybe using previous mortals ascended to godhood as a base, but The Dark One is a one in an eternity case and I doubt any of the gods can say for sure what will happen to him if this world dies.

[Clistenes]

Why doesn't Loki try to convince Thor and Hel to undo their deal? I is worried that she won't survive, but he is the one to blame; it was HIS idea, and at that point he couldn't predict that the Dark One would appear... if the Dark One didn't have a purple colored quiddity there wouldn't exist a way to make the current world permanent, and Hel would be screwed...

[ebarde]

That deal seems to be set right up till the end of this world, and I imagine it can only change if the perception of mortals towards Hel drastically does as well. And even then I don't think she really has enough power to completely change her portfolio and basically build her church from the ground up, especially when every mortal hates her guts.

[Clistenes]

That deal seems to be set right up till the end of this world, and I imagine it can only change if the perception of mortals towards Hel drastically does as well. And even then I don't think she really has enough power to completely change her portfolio and basically build her church from the ground up, especially when every mortal hates her guts.

Hel doesn't need to change her portfolio; all she needs is to announce that she can have priests now, and tempt ambitious, unscrupulous, evil people with offers of power and immortality...

If Orcs worship stuff like bulls and muppets, they sure can be convinced to worship a goddess who promises lots of power to help them beat people up... There are also lots of "evil" races like Gnolls, Minotaurs, Ogres and such that worship deities not unlike Hel. And Thrym would probably lend her a hand in setting a foundation for her cult.

[erikun]

Undoing the deal would probably be worse for Hel in this situation. Right now, she has no worshippers but gets free dwarven souls. Removing the deal would mean that she has no worshippers and she gets no dwarven souls. It wouldn't exactly be easy to tell all the dwarves - all those highly loyal, highly devout, highly structured - dwarves that they can go worship Hel and end up in endless torture if they do. The whole dwarven society has been set up to die fighting honorably and asking them to change that just to go to Hel as an afterlife reward sounds like a really hard sell.

They would almost certainly need to set up a new world - one where Hel is not feared by dwarven society in the same way - in order for her to have regular worshippers again. The current batch of dwarves would just stay away from her if given the choice, and right now in the comic is not the time she'd want to be is such a flux like that.

[ebarde]

Hel is also bound by the same rules as Loki and Thor, and if Loki can't lie and Thor's hair color changed because of a comic book it stands to reason that there's not much Hel can do other than keep doing her thing. Every dwarf is told pretty much from birth that if they do dishonorable stuff they'll go to her, and that's not really something the gods can change at this point.

[Grey Watcher]

Presumably not. TDO might only get goblinoid souls from goblinoids that actually worship him, while Hel gets *all* dwarf souls.

Indeed. The Northern pantheon has a God of Monsters who I imagine is a major competitor of the Dark One for goblinoid souls in the North. And I assume there are other deities in the other two pantheons that are likewise competing with TDO in their respective areas. Impossible to know the ratios, but I'm sure it's a factor.

That, and Hel was already getting dwarf souls for some unknown amount of time (decades? centuries? millennia?) before the Dark One even had his apotheosis.

[Metastachydium]

That, and Hel was already getting dwarf souls for some unknown amount of time (decades? centuries? millennia?) before the Dark One even had his apotheosis.

(Minor nitpick: Hel was getting a truly meagre amount of dwarven souls for those centuries (the world is less than two millenia old, so it can't be millenia), while Big Purple gets all the goblinoid souls and goblinoids get killed a lot.)

[Mic_128]

Big Purple gets all the goblinoid souls and goblinoids get killed a lot.

Only if those goblins worship him, though, and we haven't seen enough to suggest that all of them do.

[Metastachydium]

Only if those goblins worship him, though, and we haven't seen enough to suggest that all of them do.

Well, we are yet to see any goblinoid that does not at least formally worship Big Purple. At any rate, he certainly has a faster influx of souls than Hel does.

[halfeye]

Indeed. The Northern pantheon has a God of Monsters who I imagine is a major competitor of the Dark One for goblinoid souls in the North.

Oona said the Dark One wasn't of much interest to the bugbears, but she did imply (as I understood her) that he's their only god. It may be that all the goblinoids who died who weren't sent to the Dark One are still hanging around waiting to go to their final rest and the Dark One can offer them one? Greyview seems to have no afterlife in mind, and the ogres didn't have a god, they're not goblins, but they don't have a god, maybe the Dark One can claim them if he sends along some clerics?

I suspect Thor is mistaken in judging how many goblinoids there are and have been, I think the Dark One is going to do fine.

[Peelee]

Oona said the Dark One wasn't of much interest to the bugbears, but she did imply (as I understood her) that he's their only god.
Correct ; the Giant has said that before the Dark One, goblins didn't worship anyone and had no deity.

I suspect Thor is mistaken in judging how many goblinoids there are and have been, I think the Dark One is going to do fine.
The guy who can remember each and every person in all the world's since they first began? That guy has miscounted the number of goblins in the world?

Thor isn't omniscient or infallible, but that's not a theory I'd put any money on.

[Goblin_Priest]

TDO is young, but Hel has had basically no worship in this world, no souls.

I have a hard time reconciling the alleged fates of both these deities, and why the sudden influx of worshippers is a kingmaker in one case, and futile in the other, and why the one with barely any worship and souls is somewhat waning and unhealthy compared to the other that is growing and healthy, but the former appears to have more chance to survive the interim from what the various gods say.

[Metastachydium]

The guy who can remember each and every person in all the world's since they first began?


Technically, it's each and every person who ever worshipped him. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html)

[The MunchKING]

I'm guessing in the interim Gods get to draw on the Pantheon's reserves of soul power.

So, while Hel would get some of the North's extras, Dark One only has Purple's power.

EDIT:


TDO is young, but Hel has had basically no worship in this world, no souls.

I have a hard time reconciling the alleged fates of both these deities, and why the sudden influx of worshippers is a kingmaker in one case, and futile in the other, and why the one with barely any worship and souls is somewhat waning and unhealthy compared to the other that is growing and healthy, but the former appears to have more chance to survive the interim from what the various gods say.


What you're overlooking is she's gotten quite a lot of souls, just not as many as she'd like. It's mostly the prayer and devotions she's missing out on.

[Archives]

Probably, but the faster they wipe the world, the faster Hel starts getting her normal meal. She's not as bad off as Odin, but waiting prolongs the problem.
As far as the Dark One being toast well... his first response was to pull together a giant army, only to get stabbed and ascend. It seems fairly likely he'd set up an army as a backup plan. If he's backed into a corner, I'd expect every goblin killed over the course of the strip to take and hold an afterlife. THEN he's toast. :smallbiggrin:

[The MunchKING]

Probably, but the faster they wipe the world, the faster Hel starts getting her normal meal. She's not as bad off as Odin, but waiting prolongs the problem.
As far as the Dark One being toast well... his first response was to pull together a giant army, only to get stabbed and ascend. It seems fairly likely he'd set up an army as a backup plan. If he's backed into a corner, I'd expect every goblin killed over the course of the strip to take and hold an afterlife. THEN he's toast. :smallbiggrin:

I mean it's an army of GOBLIN souls. They were a match for low-level PCs when they were alive, and now they are going to try and go against Solars and Deevas?

Overwhelming numbers can only cover so much of a force gap.

[Archives]

I mean it's an army of GOBLIN souls. They were a match for low-level PCs when they were alive, and now they are going to try and go against Solars and Deevas?

Overwhelming numbers can only cover so much of a force gap.

Making a lot of assumptions there.

[sihnfahl]

What you're overlooking is she's gotten quite a lot of souls, just not as many as she'd like.
Or more to the point - not as many as she expected based off the wager she made with Loki and Thor.

Based off past experiences, she expected a LOT of souls, mortals being mortals.

But with a certain someone cluing the dwarves in, resulting in a VERY lawful society, that number didn't reach the projections.

[The MunchKING]

Making a lot of assumptions there.

Yeah, but it's closer to what we see in the comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html), rather than the usual rules on petitioners.

[Grey Watcher]

(Minor nitpick: Hel was getting a truly meagre amount of dwarven souls for those centuries (the world is less than two millenia old, so it can't be millenia), while Big Purple gets all the goblinoid souls and goblinoids get killed a lot.)

Do we know that it's under 2,000 years old? I could swear Rich said somewhere that the date 1184 (or is it '85 by now) is on a calendar that doesn't start at the creation of the world, so there was some amount of history between the creation of the world and whatever event the Northern (?) calendar is counting from. And to my recollection (which may indeed be flawed) just how much history has never been established.

[Emanick]

Do we know that it's under 2,000 years old? I could swear Rich said somewhere that the date 1184 (or is it '85 by now) is on a calendar that doesn't start at the creation of the world, so there was some amount of history between the creation of the world and whatever event the Northern (?) calendar is counting from. And to my recollection (which may indeed be flawed) just how much history has never been established.

That's correct; it's in some bonus material in one of the compilation books, IIRC. So our best guess is that the current planet is a few thousand years old, given Thor's comment on the longevity of worlds that "we're up to a few thousand years each, give or take."

[Ginasius]

But here I'm just going into speculative theodymanics

Great word!

Is it an invention of yours or is it part of the D&D culture?

[brian 333]

I wouldn't be too quick to discount TDO's minions. While they may have begun as lowbie-bait, they have been drilling hard in the afterlife and are probably being powered up by the devotion being offered by the living goblins.

However, while Hel gains a trickle of juice from all of the followers of the Northern Pantheon, TDO has no other pantheon mates to share Belief with. Most Northerners would know Hel, whereas most would not know TDO.

[Grey Watcher]

I wouldn't be too quick to discount TDO's minions. While they may have begun as lowbie-bait, they have been drilling hard in the afterlife and are probably being powered up by the devotion being offered by the living goblins.

However, while Hel gains a trickle of juice from all of the followers of the Northern Pantheon, TDO has no other pantheon mates to share Belief with. Most Northerners would know Hel, whereas most would not know TDO.

I wonder if cross-pantheon Belief counts? Malack, for example, was vaguely aware of Hel and her deal. Does that little bit count even though he's a Westerner? If so, then TDO could potentially be at a severe disadvantage, since it seems not many non-goblins are even aware of him. (I may be misremembering, but I believe Minrah didn't know who TDO was until Thor mentioned him.)

[Goblin_Priest]

I mean it's an army of GOBLIN souls. They were a match for low-level PCs when they were alive, and now they are going to try and go against Solars and Deevas?

Overwhelming numbers can only cover so much of a force gap.

Well, per RAW, all petitioners have 2HD, regardless of how powerful they got in life. This setting doesn't seem to go by that, though.

Secondly, outsiders such as solars and deevas are powered by the petitioners. I don't think it's laid out super clearly anywhere, but some places seem to suggest that petitioners can directly morph into various outsiders (like lemures replacing LE petitioners, and the lucky ones getting promotions to higher forms of baatezu races), or that the plane absorbing these souls then allows it to independantly spawn new outsiders.

So if TDO gets a bunch of goblinoid petitioners, he's probably turning some of them, directly or indirectly, into outsiders. Yugguloths and such, presumably.

[Emanick]

Well, per RAW, all petitioners have 2HD, regardless of how powerful they got in life. This setting doesn't seem to go by that, though.

Secondly, outsiders such as solars and deevas are powered by the petitioners. I don't think it's laid out super clearly anywhere, but some places seem to suggest that petitioners can directly morph into various outsiders (like lemures replacing LE petitioners, and the lucky ones getting promotions to higher forms of baatezu races), or that the plane absorbing these souls then allows it to independantly spawn new outsiders.

So if TDO gets a bunch of goblinoid petitioners, he's probably turning some of them, directly or indirectly, into outsiders. Yugguloths and such, presumably.

TDO seems to be located on Acheron. Does Acheron turn souls into Outsiders?

Also, from what we've seen, I'm kind of skeptical that the souls-into-Outsiders thing is going on in the OOTSverse, but the in-comic (and out-of-comic, in the form of Rich's comments) evidence is so scanty that I don't think there's enough evidence to really make a good case either way.

[Goblin_Priest]

TDO seems to be located on Acheron. Does Acheron turn souls into Outsiders?

Also, from what we've seen, I'm kind of skeptical that the souls-into-Outsiders thing is going on in the OOTSverse, but the in-comic (and out-of-comic, in the form of Rich's comments) evidence is so scanty that I don't think there's enough evidence to really make a good case either way.

Why wouldn't it?


Infernal Battlefield of Acheron
Thuldanin.

The hue and cry of battle is the first sound a soldier hears when arriving on Acheron and the last sound a refugee hears when leaving. That’s all Acheron offers: conflict, war, strife, and struggle. Many armies populate Acheron, but leaders are scarce. Truly, rebels without a cause are common on Acheron, whether they’re mortals, fiends, or celestials.

Avalas, Thuldanin, Tintibulus, and Ocanthus are the layers of Acheron, each made of island- or even continent-sized iron cubes floating in an airy void. Sometimes the cubes collide, and echoes of past collisions linger throughout the plane, mingling with the ring of sword on sword as armies clash across the faces of the cubes.

Acheron has the following traits.

Objective directional gravity. Which way is down depends on which face of a cube you’re on. Walking across edges between faces can be dizzying for the inexperienced.
Divinely morphic. Acheron changes at the whim of its deities. Ordinary creatures must use spells and physical effort to change the infernal battlefield.
Mildly law-aligned.

Random Encounters: Use the Hellish Encounters table for random encounters on Acheron.

The cubes of this layer are riddled with pockets and hollows. Surface pits lead down into labyrinthine spaces cluttered with the refuse of every war that was ever fought here.

Broken scraps of a myriad of devices are everywhere. Great ships that have burst asunder, toppled siege towers, enormous weapons, steam-driven carriages, flying devices of every description, and contraptions with even more obscure sources of power and purpose can be found within these cubes. Most of the refuse is inoperative, petrified to stonelike immobility by the “preservative” quality of the layer.

Scavenging for intact weapons is an occupation for many a team of salvagers and opportunists, because many quality weapons and engines of war are scattered through the rubble on Thuldanin. But wise salvagers don’t spend too long on Thuldanin, because creatures can be petrified just as objects can be. Any given object or creature has a 1% cumulative chance per 30 days spent on Thuldanin of spontaneously petrifying into stone. Objects or creatures petrified by the natural qualities of Thuldanin cannot be returned to their previous state, except by such high-level magic as a wish or miracle spell.

To make encounter maps for the war-cubes, simply create expansive dungeon terrain: large rooms, wide hallways, tall ceilings, and so forth. Then fill much of it with junk (light rubble or dense rubble). Add large structures such as catapults, war galleys, and strange clockwork devices. Finally, add a few statues—unfortunate ex-adventurers who lingered too long looking for treasure.

Characters searching for treasure will undoubtedly confront rival salvagers; Thuldanin is known throughout the Great Wheel, so almost anyone or anything can be searching the caverns of the war-cubes. Not everything in Thuldanin is ruined. Constructs such as inevitables and golems might yet be functional, springing to action when the characters draw near. To represent the riches of the war-cubes, consider all creatures encountered here (except the constructs) to have double standard treasure. But rather than putting the treasure with the creatures, hide it among the debris of war and let the characters find the loot.

Additionally:


Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

I see little reason to believe that TDO wouldn't have various evil, and perhaps even neutral-aligned outsiders at his service. Some associations would seem natural, such as with barghests.

[Morty]

Neither Hel's nor the Dark One's demise between worlds is certain. The Dark One is likely enough to die that Thor and the Order won't risk it. Hel is likely enough to die that Loki is worried. But she either isn't worried or doesn't realize what the risk is - given her mental state, I wouldn't rule out either one. I feel like that's about all the can be said, but it's enough.

[Riftwolf]

Just a thought: if TDO gets enough goblin souls that his power rivals another Pantheon (spurious at best, I know), he has no place in the carefully maintained Pact the other gods require to stop the Snarl escaping. In other words, he's a threat they'd want to contain, not broker with.

[Doctor West]

No, no, no. If the Dark One is toast, Hel is an english muffin.
(Yes, I know, the time for joke answers is long past. I'm slow. :smallyuk:)

[Peelee]

No, no, no. If the Dark One is toast, Hel is an english muffin.
(Yes, I know, the time for joke answers is long past. I'm slow. :smallyuk:)

Ohhh, that was a good one. I'm jelly.

The time for joke answers is never past!

[Riftwolf]

No, no, no. If the Dark One is toast, Hel is an english muffin.
(Yes, I know, the time for joke answers is long past. I'm slow. :smallyuk:)

Does that make Thor the crumpet?

[Grey Watcher]

Ohhh, that was a good one. I'm jelly.

There's a very narrow margarine to make a joke first.

[Peelee]

There's a very narrow margarine to make a joke first.

Any joke you can make I can make butter.

[hamishspence]

I see little reason to believe that TDO wouldn't have various evil, and perhaps even neutral-aligned outsiders at his service. Some associations would seem natural, such as with barghests.
There's a LN outsider in MM3 that's native to Acheron - the Justicator. Those look like angels, but with black-and-white feathered wings.

I could see some of those serving The Dark One.

[Grey Watcher]

Any joke you can make I can make butter.

I can't believe it's not...

[Doctor West]

Does that make Thor the crumpet?

Being American, I had to google to find out what a crumpet actually is. Looks kind of like a Chaotic Good muffin, so let's say yes.

Please don't start a serious argument about the alignment of savory baked goods.

[Ruck]

Please don't start a serious argument about the alignment of savory baked goods.

Scones are Lawful Evil.

[RatElemental]

Another factor I haven't seen anyone bring up: If the snarl snarls the world and eats all the dwarves, Hel doesn't get squat to make up for her extended starvation period. In this situation I could see her fading out completely before the next world.

I think that is the hypothetical Loki was talking about.

[Peelee]

Toast, obviously, is True Neutral, so neither Hel not TDO are toast.

[Riftwolf]

Scones are Lawful Evil.

They're native to the dry dusty wastelands of Gehenna, like turkeys.


Toast, obviously, is True Neutral, so neither Hel not TDO are toast.

I'd argue Toast soldiers are Chaotic Good, burnt toast is evil, LE is burnt toast with the burnt area covered in butter.

[Taevyr]

Chocolate chip cookies are neutral good. Raisin cookies are chaotic evil.

Also: if all the gods are toast, do the quiddities serve as flavouring?

[Peelee]

Chocolate chip cookies are neutral good. Raisin cookies are chaotic evil.

Also: if all the gods are toast, do the quiddities serve as flavouring?

I'd imagine chocolate chip cookies are Lawful good and M&M cookies are chaotic good

[Grey Watcher]

Chocolate chip cookies are neutral good. Raisin cookies are chaotic evil.

Also: if all the gods are toast, do the quiddities serve as flavouring?

I'm now imagining the pantheon names in the movie snack setting: The Ketchup Pantheon (red), the Butter Pantheon (yellow), and the Frosting Pantheon (blue).

[Peelee]

I'm now imagining the pantheon names in the movie snack setting: The Ketchup Pantheon (red), the Butter Pantheon (yellow), and the Frosting Pantheon (blue).

Headcanon'd.

It's either that or the Strawberry, Lemon, and Blue Raspberry pantheons.

[Taevyr]

Headcanon'd.

It's either that or the Strawberry, Lemon, and Blue Raspberry pantheons.

Seems a bit too healthy for the moviesnack setting; but a hypothetical fruit-based setting sounds like a trip

[Emanick]

Seems a bit too healthy for the moviesnack setting; but a hypothetical fruit-based setting sounds like a trip

Nah, those are very common flavors for fruity candies. Admittedly, there's obviously a missing Chocolate pantheon there.

[Peelee]

Nah, those are very common flavors for fruity candies. Admittedly, there's obviously a missing Chocolate pantheon there.

The actual missing pantheon was mint.

[Riftwolf]

The actual missing pantheon was mint.

It was lime marmalade and you know it!

[Ploppy]

The Dark One could be in trouble because of the goblinoids' short lifespans and low character levels, if the "calories" the Gods get from consuming souls in the afterlife is related to the amount of life experience accumulated by the souls.

[halfeye]

The Dark One could be in trouble because of the goblinoids' short lifespans and low character levels, if the "calories" the Gods get from consuming souls in the afterlife is related to the amount of life experience accumulated by the souls.

That doesn't work arithmetically, if their lives are shorter, then there have been more of them by the same ratio.

[Ploppy]

That doesn't work arithmetically, if their lives are shorter, then there have been more of them by the same ratio.

Fully-lived lives are probably worth quite a bit more, in line with the geometric growth of XP. Otherwise the most powerful God in this cosmology would just tell his followers to constantly give birth and then eat the babies like A Modest Proposal. Having a fertile female humanoid pump out a few dozen level one sacrificial souls must not be economically viable.

[Riftwolf]

Fully-lived lives are probably worth quite a bit more, in line with the geometric growth of XP. Otherwise the most powerful God in this cosmology would just tell his followers to constantly give birth and then eat the babies like A Modest Proposal. Having a fertile female humanoid pump out a few dozen level one sacrificial souls must not be economically viable.

Lamashtu hasn't been seen in the Oots verse. Thank God.

[Grey Watcher]

That doesn't work arithmetically, if their lives are shorter, then there have been more of them by the same ratio.

That does depend on exactly what the difference in value (from the gods' perspective) is between different levels. If each HD/level gained multiplies, rather than adds to the value of a soul, you can see where a society that routinely gets people to 5th-ish level by the time they die could still outpace one that has a much higher birth rate, but most people get killed while still level 1. The bigger the multiplier, the easier it is for quality to outpace quantity. And if the growth is exponential rather than multiplicative, going for quality rather than quantity becomes all the more viable.

I mean, yeah, we don't know that it works that way, but we also don't know that it doesn't work like that.

[halfeye]

That does depend on exactly what the difference in value (from the gods' perspective) is between different levels. If each HD/level gained multiplies, rather than adds to the value of a soul, you can see where a society that routinely gets people to 5th-ish level by the time they die could still outpace one that has a much higher birth rate, but most people get killed while still level 1. The bigger the multiplier, the easier it is for quality to outpace quantity. And if the growth is exponential rather than multiplicative, going for quality rather than quantity becomes all the more viable.

I mean, yeah, we don't know that it works that way, but we also don't know that it doesn't work like that.

Sure we don't know how it works, but if it works the way that seems me to be being suggested, then the elves and the elvish gods totally have it made. Is the average elf much higher level than the average human? I am not aware that we know that for D&D let alone OotS 'verse.

[brian 333]

According to D&D 3.5, both average elves and average humans are 1HD creatures. The size of the die is determined by the PC or NPC class taken.

[halfeye]

According to D&D 3.5, both average elves and average humans are 1HD creatures. The size of the die is determined by the PC or NPC class taken.

Thanks for that. Are goblins different?

[hamishspence]

Nope, nor are hobgoblins. Only Bugbears, of the 3 main goblinoids, have more than 1 hit dice, so have "humanoid hit dice" instead of PC class/NPC class hit dice.

[halfeye]

Nope, nor are hobgoblins. Only Bugbears, of the 3 main goblinoids, have more than 1 hit dice, so have "humanoid hit dice" instead of PC class/NPC class hit dice.

If that's right it sounds to me as if TDO should be fine. There are thousands, maybe millions of already dead goblinoids in his army of souls:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html

[Witty Username]

The Dark One does have a problem that the gods would need to agree to create goblins again. Since he is the god of goblins, he may cease to exist when the world ends simply because his domain is gone. Hel is at least a death god with worshipers outside of dwarfs. Also the goblins are younger than the non-moster races so there may be fewer goblin souls then dwarf ones.
Also, it is not a given that every goblin would go to the dark one, since goblins probably worship other gods periodically, and Right-eye hated the Dark One for abandoning the goblin people over petty revenge so their may be some dissonant groups.

[flyinglemur]

There's also the bet to take into account. Hel mentions the, "winnings from the bet," at the same time as she mentions the dwarves souls, which makes it likely that the winnings are soul power.

[halfeye]

The Dark One does have a problem that the gods would need to agree to create goblins again. Since he is the god of goblins, he may cease to exist when the world ends simply because his domain is gone. Hel is at least a death god with worshipers outside of dwarfs. Also the goblins are younger than the non-moster races so there may be fewer goblin souls then dwarf ones.
Also, it is not a given that every goblin would go to the dark one, since goblins probably worship other gods periodically, and Right-eye hated the Dark One for abandoning the goblin people over petty revenge so their may be some dissonant groups.

If he's still alive when they get to the next creation, he will have a say, not least because he's the only one with purple quidity, which will hopefully make for a much tighter binding of the Snarl next time. Indeed, if Redcloak or his next high cleric can be talked into remaking the gates, the extra quidity might make the gates much tougher in this world, and keep it going for a long time yet.

[Ionathus]

My impression is that Hel has sort of pushed all her eggs into this basket. Especially with all the souls she gave up flippantly during the Council of Clans, she's invested her energy reserves a little too deeply in this scheme. But even then, Thor & Loki's dialogue seems to predict TDO probably won't survive the interim period, but Hel might not. It's a lowered risk level, but still a significant risk.

Given what Thor explained about the 4 "food groups" of GodPowerTM, I'm guessing that a hypothetical god of baby eating would wind up in much the same place as Hel: plenty of Dedication, but very little Belief or Worship.

As for the number crunching and questioning of the relative value of souls: I'm getting flashbacks to people trying to run the math on Hel's scheme back during the Godsmoot.

[Rrmcklin]

There's also the bet to take into account. Hel mentions the, "winnings from the bet," at the same time as she mentions the dwarves souls, which makes it likely that the winnings are soul power.

That she gets both things at the same time does not mean they are the same thing. The way her words are phrased and emphasized in strip 1083 "But this world is almost done, and when it is, I'll collect millions of souls at once - and my winnings from the bet!" makes it likely she was supposed to be getting something else out of this besides just soul power.

[brian 333]

All of this digression from the OP is interesting. But back on topic: if TDO is toast, then Hel is crumpets. Which makes dwarves marmalade.

Or Marmite. Probably Marmite, yeah.

[RatElemental]

That does depend on exactly what the difference in value (from the gods' perspective) is between different levels. If each HD/level gained multiplies, rather than adds to the value of a soul, you can see where a society that routinely gets people to 5th-ish level by the time they die could still outpace one that has a much higher birth rate, but most people get killed while still level 1. The bigger the multiplier, the easier it is for quality to outpace quantity. And if the growth is exponential rather than multiplicative, going for quality rather than quantity becomes all the more viable.

I mean, yeah, we don't know that it works that way, but we also don't know that it doesn't work like that.

Well depending on gear, class, and tactics, a single level 5 character could probably take a dozen or so level 1 goblins in a fight and win. More if they have access to AoE damage or crowd control effects.

[brian 333]

Such characters might be better used as servants, or else why did the three amigos keep a trio of souls handy to be used in a soul splice?

I think that example shows that not all dead have to start at the 2HD Outsider stage after death, and that levels matter in the OotSverse afterlife.