Argueing with a player over the definition of an ability.

[Learn34]

Condensed version: Player has Dark template, and thinks this gives it the ability to hide in any shadow, because a shadow is not an area of "natural daylight".

My response: Incorrect, because the light that is hitting you is still daylight. The Dark template's version of HiPS has nothing to do with the Shadowdancer's version.

This, as an aside, is sidestepping the actual written text of Dark's version of HiPS, which still requires cover or concealment. It is just addressing the daylight disability clause. I am willing to allow areas of "shadowy illumination" to bypass this, but "shadowy illumination" is not the light amplitude of a conventional building/person's shadow; it's the light amplitude of a candle.

[Raishoiken]

Condensed version: Player has Dark template, and thinks this gives it the ability to hide in any shadow, because a shadow is not an area of "natural daylight".

My response: Incorrect, because the light that is hitting you is still daylight. The Dark template's version of HiPS has nothing to do with the Shadowdancer's version.

This, as an aside, is sidestepping the actual written text of Dark's version of HiPS, which still requires cover or concealment. It is just addressing the daylight disability clause. I am willing to allow areas of "shadowy illumination" to bypass this, but "shadowy illumination" is not the light amplitude of a conventional building/person's shadow; it's the light amplitude of a candle.

Yeah i would say unless there's a decent amount of shadow/darkness that it wouldn't really work super well. Standing behind the halfing in it's shadow in the middle of the day won't do enough to help. The shadow of you're hill giant buddy? Maybe

[Delta_tea]

Condensed version: Player has Dark template, and thinks this gives it the ability to hide in any shadow, because a shadow is not an area of "natural daylight".

My response: Incorrect, because the light that is hitting you is still daylight. The Dark template's version of HiPS has nothing to do with the Shadowdancer's version.

This, as an aside, is sidestepping the actual written text of Dark's version of HiPS, which still requires cover or concealment. It is just addressing the daylight disability clause. I am willing to allow areas of "shadowy illumination" to bypass this, but "shadowy illumination" is not the light amplitude of a conventional building/person's shadow; it's the light amplitude of a candle.

Per SRD: "You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went."

So the Player will need cover or concealment to hide. AKA, you can't hide in the middle of an open road. The only normal exception to this would be a spell that gives concealment such as Darkness spell which specifically says that it gives concealment.

Dark template comes with Hide in Plain Sight.

"Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect)."

So this ability only impacted the 2nd condition about being observed. Per SRD, they still need to be out of natural daylight or have concealment/cover to activate hide.

[Learn34]

You both seem to have missed the point. I'm arguing with this player over what constitutes an area of natural daylight and, ideally, looking for a RAW definition/argument that solves the disagreement. Notably, the ability is also disabled by the Daylight (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/daylight.htm) spell, which explicitly produces a region of shadowy illumination (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#visionAndLight) within it's area (hence my explicitly saying I'd be willing to ignore that requirement and providing a definition for "shadowy illumination" in IRL terms to try to create a bridge between game mechanics & verisimilitude).
I specifically said the cover/concealment bit wasn't under contention.

EDIT: I do not mean to dismiss your attempts at aid, for which I am grateful; just trying to steer the thread in the direction which will get an answer that both solves the disagreement and mitigates/prevents hurt feelings.

Also, Delta_Tea, I'm pretty sure it illegal to actually quote the exact text of the ability in question, as it is not in the SRD nor otherwise covered by the Open Gaming License (likewise, posting a link to a site which contains the exact text of the ability). Even my partial quote is on shaky ground; I just couldn't effectively enunciate the argument without at least as much reference & text as I provided.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd say that if you're outside during daytime, or even in a building with large windows during the daytime, you're in natural daylight. Doesn't matter if you're in the shade, it's still daylight out and you're in it. This isn't the same as a vampire's vulnerability to "direct sunlight" as it doesn't specify being in unobstructed daylight. If they're in bright light conditions, and that bright light is caused by daylight, they can't use it. Even if you're in the shade, you're not in shadowy illumination.

[icefractal]

Personally I would use the same criteria as "does a Vampire burn", except that the Daylight spell counts as well. But it is somewhat ambiguous, I can't say that there's a definite case for that interpretation.

Note that (AFAICT) the Dark template ability works fine in bright non-daylight light, so it's not a simple matter of whether something counts as shadowy illumination. Exactly how much of the ambient light at a location has to be daylight before it counts? 50%? 1%? Part of the reason I'd go with direct daylight is to avoid needing to perform manual ray-tracing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A vampire can carry a parasol and not be in direct sunlight. He's still in bright illumination, the parasol isn't sufficient to cause him to be in shadowy illumination. Thus he's still within daylight's bright illumination without being in direct sunlight. Just stepping into the shade, but remaining in bright illumination due to daylight, is not sufficient for enabling this version of HiPS.

[Gruftzwerg]

Deciding the illumination intensity and how dark shadow are is up to the DM to decide.

If you say the shadow is dark enough, than it is. If you deny it you deny it. You may also take things as reflected light into account. Like saying, there are shadows, but they aren't dark enough. A narrow way between two building might work at daylight (for those not standing in the narrow street and in bright daylight), while the shadow of a single building might not be enough due to reflected lights.

It's up to the DM how much thoughts he wants to invest into this topic each time. But in the end he had to make that decision. The sole thing to remember here is to be consistent with your ruling and explanation. Otherwise it will annoy players since they can't adapt to it. You need to give your players the infos that they need to know what is or what is not enough shadow/darkness/cover/whatsoever.

[icefractal]

A vampire can carry a parasol and not be in direct sunlight. He's still in bright illumination, the parasol isn't sufficient to cause him to be in shadowy illumination. Thus he's still within daylight's bright illumination without being in direct sunlight. Just stepping into the shade, but remaining in bright illumination due to daylight, is not sufficient for enabling this version of HiPS.Where are you getting "shadowy illumination" from?

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect).Seems to be specific to daylight. "Bright light" would have been a lot simpler if that's what they meant.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Where are you getting "shadowy illumination" from?
Seems to be specific to daylight. "Bright light" would have been a lot simpler if that's what they meant.

Using shadowy illumination to indicate you're not being excluded from using the ability due to "except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect." i.e. if you're out in the daytime but in shadowy illumination, you're not in daylight. Daylight itself is bright enough that it will shine off of surfaces and you'll still be in bright illumination due to the presence of daylight even when you're in the shade.

[Firest Kathon]

I think it's important here to divorce the light level from the source of the light. The light levels (bright light, normal light, shadowy illumination, darkness) seem to be not relevant in the Dark template. Only the light source (natural Daylight=sunlight, daylight spell, fire, ...) make a difference.