How do way of mercy and way of the open hand monks compare as controllers?

[Rfkannen]

Monks all have some control ability through the regular use of the stunning strike ability, both way of mercy and way of the open hand give the monk more control ability (way of mercy giving the poisoned condition, way of the open hand letting you push people off cliffs and knock them prone). How do they compare as controllers? Which do you think is more fun? Which one would you rather have in your party?

[sithlordnergal]

Monks all have some control ability through the regular use of the stunning strike ability, both way of mercy and way of the open hand give the monk more control ability (way of mercy giving the poisoned condition, way of the open hand letting you push people off cliffs and knock them prone). How do they compare as controllers? Which do you think is more fun? Which one would you rather have in your party?

As much as I love Way of Mercy Monk, and as much as I chuckle at the idea of a Lizardfolk Way of Mercy that bites people to heal them, Way of the Open Hand has far better control options then the Way of Mercy. While the Poisoned condition is powerful, its also the Way of Mercy's only form of control outside of what you get in the Monk chassis. The Poisoned Condition happens to be one of the most common Condition Immunities in 5e, which limits the Mercy Monk's control potential. Plus you have to wait until level 6 before you can actually Poison anything.

On top of that, you can only use Hands of Harm, which is required to be used to Poison a creature, once per turn. Meaning you can't Poison more then one creature during your turn, outside of special things like Attacks of Opportunity. And finally, it costs 1 Ki Point to use Hands of Harm, and it costs 2 Ki Points to use Flurry of Blows and Hands of Harm until level 11.


Compare that to Open Hand. An Open Hand Monk gets their control options at level 3, as soon as they take their Subclass. Their options also don't cost any extra Ki, you just have to use Flurry of Blows. On top of that, you can stack your control options. Due to the wording, you can impose one of the Open Hand Technique effects whenever you hit a creature with your Flurry of Blows, meaning if you hit the same creature twice you can stack two effects. Or you could split those effects up between two separate creatures.

And as for the effects themselves, they're pretty dang powerful. You can knock a creature Prone with a Dex save, shove a creature 15 feet with a Strength save, or just deny a creature their Reaction until the end of your next turn. Even if you face a creature that's immune to Prone, or has so much movement speed that 15 feet doesn't matter, being able to auto-remove all Reactions on a single hit is extremely powerful.

Not to mention at level 11, the same level where Mercy Monks no longer have to pay an extra Ki Point to Flurry and use Hands of Healing/Harm, Open Hand monks just get a free Sanctuary spell that can last all day if they don't attack anyone. Meaning they can't really be directly targeted very easily during that first round of combat.

And finally, we have to look at the level 17 abilities. Sure, neither of them are strictly battlefield control...but compare Quivering Palm to Hand of Ultimate Mercy. Hand of Ultimate Mercy lets you return a creature to life once per day for 5 Ki Points as an action.

That's pretty good...but then you look at Quivering Palm. Whenever you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can spend 3 Ki points to set Quivering Palm up. Then you can use your action to force a Con save, or the creature dies. Even if the creature succeeds, they take 10d10 Necrotic damage. There are no limitations on how many times you can do this, and you can stack this on TOP of Stunning Strike, Flurry of Blows, and all the features from your Open Hand Technique. Meaning in one turn you could spend 5 Ki points to use a Flurry of Blows and stack Stunning Strike, Quivering Palm, and the Shove/Prone/Reaction denial all on one punch, then use the second Flurry of Blows punch to apply one of the other two effects.

[Eldariel]

That's pretty good...but then you look at Quivering Palm. Whenever you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can spend 3 Ki points to set Quivering Palm up. Then you can use your action to force a Con save, or the creature dies. Even if the creature succeeds, they take 10d10 Necrotic damage. There are no limitations on how many times you can do this, and you can stack this on TOP of Stunning Strike, Flurry of Blows, and all the features from your Open Hand Technique. Meaning in one turn you could spend 5 Ki points to use a Flurry of Blows and stack Stunning Strike, Quivering Palm, and the Shove/Prone/Reaction denial all on one punch, then use the second Flurry of Blows punch to apply one of the other two effects.

It's worth noting though, the action to trigger Quivering Palm is a very real cost. In essence, it takes two turns unless you have Action Surge or something. Without it, the ability would single-handedly make Open Hand Monk one of the better damage dealers in the game but because it costs an action, it means you miss out on a full turn's worth of attacks when you use it. Now, it's still powerful (automatic 10d10 = 55 necrotic with a chance of instant death), but it's merely competitive with full attacking as opposed to being a massive damage enhancer. In essence, you spend two turns to lay down a series of stuns/hits on the enemy followed by a SoD with 55 damage kicker; meaning on the second turn instead of stuns/3d10+15/4d10+20/etc. you get to use QP. If enemy is out of Legendary Resistances, that can be very potent but even then, Con-saves are likely fairly high for most things so it's closer to 55 damage than instant death (the exact value depends greatly on the monster, of course).

[sithlordnergal]

It's worth noting though, the action to trigger Quivering Palm is a very real cost. In essence, it takes two turns unless you have Action Surge or something. Without it, the ability would single-handedly make Open Hand Monk one of the better damage dealers in the game but because it costs an action, it means you miss out on a full turn's worth of attacks when you use it. Now, it's still powerful (automatic 10d10 = 55 necrotic with a chance of instant death), but it's merely competitive with full attacking as opposed to being a massive damage enhancer. In essence, you spend two turns to lay down a series of stuns/hits on the enemy followed by a SoD with 55 damage kicker; meaning on the second turn instead of stuns/3d10+15/4d10+20/etc. you get to use QP. If enemy is out of Legendary Resistances, that can be very potent but even then, Con-saves are likely fairly high for most things so it's closer to 55 damage than instant death (the exact value depends greatly on the monster, of course).

Oh yeah, Quivering Palm does have the issue of requiring a full action to use, and that does bring it in line somewhat...but you're still looking at an average of 55 damage or instant death. Not to mention its pretty flexible since you can set it up on round 1, then use it later if the target somehow moves out of your range via flight or something instead of making ranged attacks.

[Unoriginal]

Monks all have some control ability through the regular use of the stunning strike ability, both way of mercy and way of the open hand give the monk more control ability (way of mercy giving the poisoned condition, way of the open hand letting you push people off cliffs and knock them prone). How do they compare as controllers? Which do you think is more fun? Which one would you rather have in your party?


A Mercy Monk is a powerful damage dealer and action healer, but as far as control goes the Open Hand Monk is just more tailored for it. Like sithlordnergal said, the Mercy Monk's only additional control ability is being able to inflict the poisoned condition, which isn't much.

Which is more fun or which one you'd rather have in your party depends on a lot more than just this.

[x3n0n]

Everybody is right here: from 3rd level onward, OH Technique gives the opportunity to affect up to 2 enemies a turn, with no size limits, at the cost of one ki per round.

I will just mention that Skill Expert (Athletics) also offers ki-light control options for any Monk: high-probability shove/grapple, especially at 5th level. This is especially good with Astral Self, who can use Wis for those checks, at the cost of 1 ki for 10 minutes (and pretty good for Mercy from 6th level onward, and especially from 11th).

15-ft-Shove/trip at 1ki/turn: Open Hand

Grapple/Shove, 1ki/encounter: Astral Self+Athletics

Grapple/Shove with significant bonus damage and poisoned condition, 1ki/turn: Mercy@6+ with Athletics

[Chronic]

Funny enough one if not the best monk controller is way if the 4 elements, with the disciplines fist of unbroken air and water whip. Combined with the usual stunning strike, that's 3 controlling abilities targeting different saves, two of them at range,which is kind of massive considering many things start flying at some point in my campaigns. Not as spammable as open hand but way more versatile, and as eany other monk you still get a excellent base classe chassis.

[stoutstien]

Funny enough one if not the best monk controller is way if the 4 elements, with the disciplines fist of unbroken air and water whip. Combined with the usual stunning strike, that's 3 controlling abilities targeting different saves, two of them at range,which is kind of massive considering many things start flying at some point in my campaigns. Not as spammable as open hand but way more versatile, and has every monk you still get a excellent base chassis.

4E monks are often overlooked in the battlefield Tetris role.

[Yakmala]

I've played both Open Hand and Mercy and I like them both. While Open Hand is probably still the better overall option, Mercy has a few good things going for it. Physician's Touch at 6th level is super useful. While poisoned is one of the most resisted conditions, for those enemies without immunity to the effect, there is no save. The other effects of Physician's Touch, being able to remove disease, blinded, deafened, paralyzed, poisoned, or stunned, may be situational, but your party will be very happy you have this ability when they need it.

[KnotaGuru]

I’m playing a monk in an upcoming campaign. I love control options for my characters so was also leaning toward open hand. I won’t know which archetype I’ll go yet until I get to level 3: open hand for control, mercy for extra heals and a little control, or maybe long death for more durability. Interesting that someone mentioned 4e monk. I’ll have to relook at that option.

Either way, I plan on grabbing the crusher feat at level 4 to provide more control options (5’ shove) and party aid (provide advantage on critical hit).

[Witty Username]

I would say way of mercy simply because its no saving throw poisoned condition is difficult to replicate.
Way of open hand can knock prone or move away but only with flurry of blows attacks which limits its utility and anyone with an athletics skill can shove, hand of harm can be on any attack and poisoned condition no saving throw is not common (I think one spell does that) and the disadvantage on ability checks can be leveraged to knock prone or grapple.

Now, this is contingent on enemies that aren't immune to the poisoned condition. But that is not often going to be all the time.

I do want to address, hand of harm + flurry of blows is more ki, but if the monk is using one or the other hand of harm can be better than flurry in terms of damage. So if you are conserving ki for the control options, you are probably still being more ki to damage efficient. So hand of harm costs additional ki while open hand technique does not is true but misleading. At least until level 11 when why not both becomes the most ki efficient option.

[Falconcry]

Loved my Mercy Monk in UA but after the lower level abilities got so neutered for a worthwhile level 17 ability ( that most monks will never get to use) I would say go Open Hand every time.

[sithlordnergal]

I would say way of mercy simply because its no saving throw poisoned condition is difficult to replicate.
Way of open hand can knock prone or move away but only with flurry of blows attacks which limits its utility and anyone with an athletics skill can shove, hand of harm can be on any attack and poisoned condition no saving throw is not common (I think one spell does that) and the disadvantage on ability checks can be leveraged to knock prone or grapple.

Now, this is contingent on enemies that aren't immune to the poisoned condition. But that is not often going to be all the time.

I do want to address, hand of harm + flurry of blows is more ki, but if the monk is using one or the other hand of harm can be better than flurry in terms of damage. So if you are conserving ki for the control options, you are probably still being more ki to damage efficient. So hand of harm costs additional ki while open hand technique does not is true but misleading. At least until level 11 when why not both becomes the most ki efficient option.

Do keep in mind, you can only apply that poison once per turn. So you can't poison multiple creatures in a turn, just the one. And while other people can shove and knock enemies prone, you usually give up your attack to do that and you can only shove creatures up to 5 feet away, so you're not doing any damage with that attack and you're only moving the creature 1/3rd of the distance. Not only that, but you can only use the Shove attack against things that are one size category larger than yourself. Open Hand Monks don't have that restriction, meaning a Small Kobold Monk can, technically, knock a Gargantuan Tarrasque prone then shove it up 15 feet.

And to top it off, Open Hand Monks can also just remove a creature's reaction until the end of the Monk's next turn with no save. Meaning that creature won't get their reaction back on their turn. This may or may not matter of course, depending on how often your DM uses things like Opportunity Attacks, Shield, Counterspell, ect. But its still a powerful tool in the tool belt that no other class gets.

[x3n0n]

And to top it off, Open Hand Monks can also just remove a creature's reaction until the end of the Monk's next turn with no save. Meaning that creature won't get their reaction back on their turn. This may or may not matter of course, depending on how often your DM uses things like Opportunity Attacks, Shield, Counterspell, ect. But its still a powerful tool in the tool belt that no other class gets.

This had totally passed me by! I always glossed over it in my head as "they can't Opportunity Attack you if you walk away this turn".

The effect is slightly different from what you said, but still much better than I thought: "It can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn."

So it gets its reaction back on *its* turn, but can't *take* that reaction until after the end of *your* next turn.
(Contrast Shocking Grasp, which only says the target can't take reactions until the *start* of *its* next turn; much less effect.)

Thanks for highlighting it!

[Scarytincan]

Generally agree with all that's been said, but wanted to add a little tick to mercy (not enough to overshadow OH in control but still worth saying) that if you are using grapples and shoves, poisoned gives the enemy disadvantage to resist, so the skill feat on athletics for a mercy monk can still do fine.

[MaxWilson]

But its still a powerful tool in the tool belt that no other class gets.

Shocking Grasp does the same thing.

[x3n0n]

Shocking Grasp does the same thing.

Does it? I thought I checked earlier today.

Shocking Grasp: "it can't take reactions until the start of its next turn"
Open Hand Technique: "It can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn."

That's potentially a relevant boost in duration, particularly for tables that use PHB initiative.

[sithlordnergal]

Shocking Grasp does the same thing.

I forgot that Shocking Grasp even existed. You're technically correct, Shocking Grasp does do a similar thing to the Open Hand Monk, though I think Shocking Grasp's effect is slightly weaker over all.

[MrStabby]

I’m playing a monk in an upcoming campaign. I love control options for my characters so was also leaning toward open hand. I won’t know which archetype I’ll go yet until I get to level 3: open hand for control, mercy for extra heals and a little control, or maybe long death for more durability. Interesting that someone mentioned 4e monk. I’ll have to relook at that option.

Either way, I plan on grabbing the crusher feat at level 4 to provide more control options (5’ shove) and party aid (provide advantage on critical hit).

Hmm. I would say shadow-monk is the best for control. I think control is not just shutting someone down but shutting the right person down. The shadowstep ability makes it easier to pick the optimum target for your stunning strikes and to jump through that wall of force and take down the wizard.

Also, the ability to cast darkness or silence just further deepens the pool of abilities that can shut down enemies. A shadowmonk with sentinal (and possibly a dip to pick up the blindfighting style) is a really really bad day for a lot of casters.

[Witty Username]

Do keep in mind, you can only apply that poison once per turn. So you can't poison multiple creatures in a turn, just the one. And while other people can shove and knock enemies prone, you usually give up your attack to do that and you can only shove creatures up to 5 feet away, so you're not doing any damage with that attack and you're only moving the creature 1/3rd of the distance. Not only that, but you can only use the Shove attack against things that are one size category larger than yourself. Open Hand Monks don't have that restriction, meaning a Small Kobold Monk can, technically, knock a Gargantuan Tarrasque prone then shove it up 15 feet.

And to top it off, Open Hand Monks can also just remove a creature's reaction until the end of the Monk's next turn with no save. Meaning that creature won't get their reaction back on their turn. This may or may not matter of course, depending on how often your DM uses things like Opportunity Attacks, Shield, Counterspell, ect. But its still a powerful tool in the tool belt that no other class gets.
But open hand needs flurry of blows attacks to use it, meaning that it only gets two applicable attacks and, unless you are using the reaction taking, a saving throw to resist. You would need to hit with both attacks and stick both effects, and comes at the cost of upfront ki cost. You have the chance to spend 1 ki to miss twice, with way of mercy if you miss all your attacks you at least spent 0 ki. It can happen but it is unlikely and their is real cost for it.

Also, poisoned would impose disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks including opportunity attacks and and counter spells. I think if shield is in play the monster would just cast it and block the attack so I am not convinced that is relevant either way

[sithlordnergal]

But open hand needs flurry of blows attacks to use it, meaning that it only gets two applicable attacks and, unless you are using the reaction taking, a saving throw to resist. You would need to hit with both attacks and stick both effects, and comes at the cost of upfront ki cost. You have the chance to spend 1 ki to miss twice, with way of mercy if you miss all your attacks you at least spent 0 ki. It can happen but it is unlikely and their is real cost for it.

Also, poisoned would impose disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks including opportunity attacks and and counter spells. I think if shield is in play the monster would just cast it and block the attack so I am not convinced that is relevant either way

True, you do have the potential to miss with Flurry of Blows, and you will be down a ki point if you do. So I will admit that's one advantage the Way of Mercy Monk has. But outside of that, Open Hand is still going to be better at control. Sure, Poisoned imposes disadvantage on attacks and ability checks, but not getting to make an Opportunity Attack or cast Counterspell all is simply better then disadvantage. Not to mention, Open Hand Monks can apply their effects to up to two different creatures, Way of Mercy can only apply their Poisoned condition to one creature per turn. So you can't really spread it around.

Not only that, but Poisoned is one of the most common conditions creatures are immune to, and Undead make up a huge portion of creatures immune to Poison, making its use highly limited since Undead are very common.

[x3n0n]

Instead of comparing Hand of Harm+Physician's Touch to Open Hand Technique directly, I recommend comparing it to Stunning Strike first.

SS: online at 5th level, requires a melee hit, 1 ki, Con save to resist, better condition, no damage, many per turn
HH/PS: online at 6th level, requires an unarmed strike hit, 1 ki, no save (but some immune), worse condition, extra damage, 1/turn

IMO, it adds an excellent tool to use against anybody who is not immune to the poisoned condition and resistant/immune to necrotic damage. Imposing disadvantage on attacks is like a free Dodge, disadvantage on checks is like a free Enhance Ability for Strength contests, and it's guaranteed significant bonus damage.

However, poisoned is not nearly as powerful of a condition as stunned. The best targets seem to be those with good Con saves while not being immune to poison, and who don't have something great to do while poisoned. (Attacks are stymied, but any action that just imposes a save is unaffected: breath weapons, save cantrips, etc.)

All of that said, I don't think it adds that much "new" to the Monk, control-wise: all Monks can stun, and Mercy Monks can't afford to "tank" Wisdom and rely on the no-save poison (since their healing and damage also depend on Wis).


Open Hand Technique, by contrast, adds lots of new things, like starting at 3rd level, having a particularly interesting no-save option, and useful options that target both combat saves. (One downside: if you don't want to Flurry for action economy reasons, you can't use it.)


For the control role in specific, Open Hand Technique seems like it adds far more *new* capabilities than Hand of Harm with Physician's Touch does.

Edit: added the unarmed-strike requirement to Hand of Harm. Relevant in tier 1 for damage reasons (d8 staff/spear vs d4 unarmed), relevant for Stunning Strike vs Kensei/Astral in tier 2 for loss of potential reach. Not relevant vis-a-vis OH Technique.