Random thought: switching between concentration spells

[Segev]

What would break if the rules were changed or a feat or class feature introduced that allowed multiple Concentration effects to be "up" but only e active at a time? Maybe switching between them as an action or bonus action. So you could have Hex up, use Misty Visions for a few rounds, and switch back to Hex when it was needed, for example.

[jas61292]

This would obviously be a buff, but not necessarily a huge one, depending on the exact mechanics used. Warlock's with Hex, as mentioned, would be a prime example of how this could be useful. Hex gets thrown around a lot in theoretical damage calculations, but in my personal experience, it is very rarely actually used past low levels, because while it might scale for time, its still, in the long run, using a high level slot and concentration for a low level effect. Being able to use other concentration spells with it would be a buff, but I feel like it would end up being a big combat buff, rather than a utility one, as (again, in my experience) actually using hex was the theoretical of forums, while the reality at the table was Warlocks using utility spells, especially from invocations.

Perhaps the bigger buff, though, might be for druids, who have so many different good concentrations spells. Being able to use a bunch of utility spells when you need them, while still having your conjured animals when you get into combat is very nice. And being able to swap between control and damage options, depending on the situation, without losing on the ability to switch back would make druid combat at high levels far more interesting. Also, some spells that are generally not worth using, like Barkskin, might not seem as bad. Sure, its not an ideal use for concentration, but being able to switch back to it whenever you are not concentrating on something else is certainly more likely to make it worth a slot.

That being said, it is with druid that this whole concept suddenly seems weird to me. If I were to "switch" my concentration away from Conjure Animals, do the animals temporarily blink out of existence until I switch back? Or do they just freeze or something? What about something like Hold Person or Dominate Beast? The target is freed when you switch away from the spell, but if you switch back, do they get another save? Or does it automatically work, since they failed the first time?

I think this concept is cool, and could benefit some lesser used options and strategies. But I'm not sure I see a good way to implement it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Probably not a great idea, though I'm actually not sure if it would break balance all that much further. My two biggest immediate worries are (1) It's definitely a buff to casters, furthering the martial disparity and (2) summons... Where do they go?

My gut tells me that for 1st and 2nd level spells it would be a minor impact but from 3rd up we see long duration concentration effects that might cause major issues like Conjure/Summon X spells.

Two final side notes: How would it interact with the concentration requirement of readying a spell or a longer casting time spell and does this prevent spells with conditional ends from triggering while it's "down" like invisibility?

[heavyfuel]

This would obviously be a buff

It's definitely a buff to casters

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Not every new option is an upgrade. Some new options can be a downgrade (in which case - don't pick those) and a lot of new ptions are sidegrades at best.

OP mentioned making it a feat or a class feature (variant class feature?).

What is better: A Druid that has +1 to Wisdom saves, +1 to save DC, +1 prepared prepared spells, +1 to spell attacks, +1 to a bunch of skills (including Perception), and +1 to a bunch of minor stuff; or a Druid that can concentrate on two spells at once and swap between them?

Or what if OP makes it a VCF: Would you prefer a Wizard with this new ability, or with Arcane Recovery? AR is really really strong, so this better be worth it.

A lot of Concentration spells have short-ish durations, so I think this ability would be less than great if it required an Action to use. Spells that last 1 minute are not going to be worth swaping back and forth. So this would only be worth it for longer duration spells.

If it were a Bonus action to swap, it could see more use in combat, but it would drain resources quickly if a player is not careful.

[Segev]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Not every new option is an upgrade. Some new options can be a downgrade (in which case - don't pick those) and a lot of new ptions are sidegrades at best.

OP mentioned making it a feat or a class feature (variant class feature?).

What is better: A Druid that has +1 to Wisdom saves, +1 to save DC, +1 prepared prepared spells, +1 to spell attacks, +1 to a bunch of skills (including Perception), and +1 to a bunch of minor stuff; or a Druid that can concentrate on two spells at once and swap between them?

Or what if OP makes it a VCF: Would you prefer a Wizard with this new ability, or with Arcane Recovery? AR is really really strong, so this better be worth it.

A lot of Concentration spells have short-ish durations, so I think this ability would be less than great if it required an Action to use. Spells that last 1 minute are not going to be worth swaping back and forth. So this would only be worth it for longer duration spells.

If it were a Bonus action to swap, it could see more use in combat, but it would drain resources quickly if a player is not careful.

Good insights; thanks for pointing them out. I had in mind - was envisioning - this kind-of being used to permit a long-duration Concentration spell to be interrupted by a combat-length one, for example, or a utility one for a situational purpose, and then resumed.

[Unoriginal]

Good insights; thanks for pointing them out. I had in mind - was envisioning - this kind-of being used to permit a long-duration Concentration spell to be interrupted by a combat-length one, for example, or a utility one for a situational purpose, and then resumed.

Which is a buff.

Managing your spell slots is one of the main limits for every casters, and being able to go "yeah, I can switch between Concentration spells without spending ressources" is a noticeable power increase.

Plus, would there be anything stopping a caster from having 12 Concentration combat buffs on and just juggling with them during the fight ?

[heavyfuel]

Which is a buff.

Managing your spell slots is one of the main limits for every casters, and being able to go "yeah, I can switch between Concentration spells without spending ressources" is a noticeable power increase.

Again, it's only a power increase if it's free. If it has an opportunity cost (feat or variant feature) it may or may not be a buff.



Plus, would there be anything stopping a caster from having 12 Concentration combat buffs on and just juggling with them during the fight ?

Action economy? Spell duration? Slot management? Fear of breaking concentration as wasting 12 spells?

There's also the fact that if you have 12 spells and can only swap once per turn, it means you'll have 11 spells doing nothing. If a combat lasts 5 rounds, and you swap 5 times, you'll have nt used 7 spells.

Plus, I think Segev was thinking of allowing only one extra spell, not eleven.

[Dienekes]

So on an old Bard homebrew I was working on awhile back, I tinkered with this as a means of showing the Bard playing different music as part of a singular performance.

Which is where I think this effect works best. In playtesting it was pretty strong. But so long the Concentration effects were party buffs or area CC. But it got really confusing when things like Conjure Animals got involved. And heavy single target CC was also more confusing than anything, especially ones that have the target make saves every round.

But it did make Darkness spell hilarious as "The Strobe Light."

[Greywander]

For summons, they could disappear when you swap concentration, and reappear where you left them when you swap back. Alternatively, they might simply freeze in place, allowing them to still be attacked but unable to take any actions or move. More charitably, perhaps petrify them so they at least have damage resistance.

For control/debuff spells like Hold Person, the effect could be suppressed while not concentrating, and resume when you switch back. You might even have the creature continue rolling saves as normal to end the effect.

Alternatively, you could have a general rule that the spell "ends" when you swap concentration, and swapping back to that spell has the same effect as recasting the spell. So summons would summon a new set of creatures at a new point you designate, a debuff spell might require another save before it even takes effect, and so on. This could potentially be abused by spells with big up-front effects, for example I could see using this to abuse an upcast Witch Bolt, since upcasting only increases the initial damage. If swapping concentration back to Witch Bolt deals the initial damage again, then you could greatly increase the total damage it deals.

[Galithar]

I think the easiest way to limit this, and simultaneously prevent abuse, is put a clause that the spell that is being concentrated on but not active cannot summon a creature(anything) or force another creature to make a saving throw.

Hold Person can be cast while you hold Pass Without Trace in the background.

If you cast Moonbeam while you have Hold Person active it immediately ends and cannot ve help in reserve.

I feel this further supports the intent. Allowing longer duration concentration utility spells to not be interrupted by combat (assuming you don't lose concentration from damage etc.) Without opening weird interactions with spells.

This would still have a few odd interactions with spells like Sleep that don't have saving throws.
Edit: I just remembered sleep isn't a concentration spell

[Lord Vukodlak]

Even without switching to a different spell the ability to turn a concentration spell on and off has value.
Lower a wall of fire or force to let an ally pass. Or spike growth any spell that creates a barrier or hazard.

[Dienekes]

For summons, they could disappear when you swap concentration, and reappear where you left them when you swap back. Alternatively, they might simply freeze in place, allowing them to still be attacked but unable to take any actions or move. More charitably, perhaps petrify them so they at least have damage resistance.

For control/debuff spells like Hold Person, the effect could be suppressed while not concentrating, and resume when you switch back. You might even have the creature continue rolling saves as normal to end the effect.

Alternatively, you could have a general rule that the spell "ends" when you swap concentration, and swapping back to that spell has the same effect as recasting the spell. So summons would summon a new set of creatures at a new point you designate, a debuff spell might require another save before it even takes effect, and so on. This could potentially be abused by spells with big up-front effects, for example I could see using this to abuse an upcast Witch Bolt, since upcasting only increases the initial damage. If swapping concentration back to Witch Bolt deals the initial damage again, then you could greatly increase the total damage it deals.

I would definitely not do the last one with summons. Blinking creatures that reappear with full health after a round of rest? As a GM that terrifies me.

[MoiMagnus]

IMO, I would rather see some feats / warlock invocation / class feature remove concentration from some specific spells or spells of a specific school, or do as you said (so turn off/on some spells).

For example, it would not have shocked me if the Misty vision invocation also removed the concentration (though still limited to one at a time). However, since Misty vision is already one of the better invocations, it's definitely not the one I would buff first.

[Segev]

I honestly don't know how I would make this work in general, but one possibility would be as an odd sort of metamagic.

Suspend Concentration: You can spend 1 SP when you lose Concentration on a spell. If you do, the spell ends as normal. At any point before its duration would have ended had you not lost Concentration, you may spend an action to cause the spell to resume (taking up your concentration again) as if it had never ceased. Effects reinstate themselves as previously cast: creatures reappear with all the same damage and other effects still present, control is reasserted over conjured elementals, targets are again hexed or hunter's marked (or you may choose new ones if the old ones are dead), creatures who had been Charmed by the effect are Charmed once again, etc.


I call this "odd" because you spend the SP when you lose Concentration, rather than as part of casting the spell. (Though it may well accompany casting another Concentration spell.)

[heavyfuel]

I honestly don't know how I would make this work in general, but one possibility would be as an odd sort of metamagic.

Suspend Concentration: You can spend 1 SP when you lose Concentration on a spell. If you do, the spell ends as normal. At any point before its duration would have ended had you not lost Concentration, you may spend an action to cause the spell to resume (taking up your concentration again) as if it had never ceased. Effects reinstate themselves as previously cast: creatures reappear with all the same damage and other effects still present, control is reasserted over conjured elementals, targets are again hexed or hunter's marked (or you may choose new ones if the old ones are dead), creatures who had been Charmed by the effect are Charmed once again, etc.


I call this "odd" because you spend the SP when you lose Concentration, rather than as part of casting the spell. (Though it may well accompany casting another Concentration spell.)

Do you intend to have it work even if Concentration was lost due to damage/external phenomena?

[Segev]

Do you intend to have it work even if Concentration was lost due to damage/external phenomena?

That was the intent with that version, though my original thought on it was "no."

[Aimeryan]

Which is a buff.

Managing your spell slots is one of the main limits for every casters, and being able to go "yeah, I can switch between Concentration spells without spending ressources" is a noticeable power increase.

Plus, would there be anything stopping a caster from having 12 Concentration combat buffs on and just juggling with them during the fight ?

Agreed.

That said, I do think there would be room for quality-of-life improvements while not affecting power. Random inspired thought; what if Concentration did not occur until after your turn ends, if the spell/effect is still in play at that point?

There are a number of spells and abilities that require Concentration, however, if you only want/need them momentarily then the benefit for such a cost is very under par. This has a chilling effect on variety, leading to just holding one Concentration effect for a long period of time which tends to cut whole swaths of spells and abilities out of play. It may be that cutting such a cost out may see more interesting play, and the power remains roughly unaffected (still using resources like Spell Slots - in fact, maybe more so).

[MoiMagnus]

There are a number of spells and abilities that require Concentration, however, if you only want/need them momentarily then the benefit for such a cost is very under par. This has a chilling effect on variety, leading to just holding one Concentration effect for a long period of time which tends to cut whole swaths of spells and abilities out of play. It may be that cutting such a cost out may see more interesting play, and the power remains roughly unaffected (still using resources like Spell Slots - in fact, maybe more so).

Our table play with "you can maintain concentration on more than one spell at a time, but only for very short period of time" (not an hard and precise rule yet, as no player or NPC tried to use this rule for more than an action yet).

The reason is that we also play with "every non-reaction spell is a concentration spells for the duration of its spellcasting, including one-action spells and bonus action spells", so in particular
(1) any martial can ready an attack to force a concentration check when the enemy is casting.
(2) spellcasting in a dangerous environment like a storm requires a concentration check.
The first houserule is necessary for the second houserule to work properly, otherwise you just can't spellcast anymore while you are concentrating.

[Mastikator]

Kinda curious how it would behave for concentration spells that make things begin or seize to exist. If you cast banishment and then cast summon and switch, does the banished creature re-appear, does it get a save again when you switch back to banishment? Can you use this to "save" your summon by switching to a different concentration spell by getting them out of a bad situation only to switch again to make them re-appear.

What happens if you cast wall of stone (make a circle), then cast invisibility, does the web just disappear. If you then re-concentrate on wall of stone as soon as an enemy is inside the area (perhaps with a ready action, while you are still invisible) do they now get a save as if you had just cast it or does it skip that part because you cast it last turn?

There are a lot of very powerful exploits.

On the other hand Sentinel and Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master are feats that exists so maybe this is cool too?

[Valmark]

Imo it's a boost but not a big one or something to 'worry' about- we already have classes that can keep two Concentration spells going at the same time with no risk of losing one of them and/or exclude people from AoEs so this wouldn't be anything stronger then what's already in the game.

[diplomancer]

Imo it's a boost but not a big one or something to 'worry' about- we already have classes that can keep two Concentration spells going at the same time.

Which one? I ask because I believe Jeremy Crawford a long while ago made a big deal about advising homebrewers not to mess with Concentration, so I'm surprised if there are, indeed, official classes that do mess with it.

As to the thread question, I like the idea in general, but there might be too many cornercases to make it work and still be balanced; the limitation on the "suspended" spell not forcing a saving throw or involving summons might be the easiest way to do it.

[Amnestic]

Which one? I ask because I believe Jeremy Crawford a long while ago made a big deal about advising homebrewers not to mess with Concentration, so I'm surprised if there are, indeed, official classes that do mess with it.


Best I can guess is Chronurgist wizard from wildemount, who hands off its arcane abbeyance spell to its familiar? It's two creatures, but it is one class using its features to maintain two concentration spells at once, ~technically~

[Aimeryan]

Our table play with "you can maintain concentration on more than one spell at a time, but only for very short period of time" (not an hard and precise rule yet, as no player or NPC tried to use this rule for more than an action yet).

The reason is that we also play with "every non-reaction spell is a concentration spells for the duration of its spellcasting, including one-action spells and bonus action spells", so in particular
(1) any martial can ready an attack to force a concentration check when the enemy is casting.
(2) spellcasting in a dangerous environment like a storm requires a concentration check.
The first houserule is necessary for the second houserule to work properly, otherwise you just can't spellcast anymore while you are concentrating.

Very interesting - I may use that, myself.

[Valmark]

Which one? I ask because I believe Jeremy Crawford a long while ago made a big deal about advising homebrewers not to mess with Concentration, so I'm surprised if there are, indeed, official classes that do mess with it.

As to the thread question, I like the idea in general, but there might be too many cornercases to make it work and still be balanced; the limitation on the "suspended" spell not forcing a saving throw or involving summons might be the easiest way to do it.


Best I can guess is Chronurgist wizard from wildemount, who hands off its arcane abbeyance spell to its familiar? It's two creatures, but it is one class using its features to maintain two concentration spells at once, ~technically~

Amnestic said it, yeah.

[HPisBS]

All of this concentration switching / suspending sounds like it could get cumbersome and confusing in practice. If going that route, I think I'd favor disallowing it on any spell that imposes a save, or that conjures a creature or wall. I would say a blanket "any conjuration spell," but that'd catch spells like Fog Cloud and Wristpocket, so the jankier wording seems appropriate.


I honestly don't know how I would make this work in general, but one possibility would be as an odd sort of metamagic.

Suspend Concentration: You can spend 1 SP when you lose Concentration on a spell. If you do, the spell ends as normal. At any point before its duration would have ended had you not lost Concentration, you may spend an action to cause the spell to resume (taking up your concentration again) as if it had never ceased. Effects reinstate themselves as previously cast: creatures reappear with all the same damage and other effects still present, control is reasserted over conjured elementals, targets are again hexed or hunter's marked (or you may choose new ones if the old ones are dead), creatures who had been Charmed by the effect are Charmed once again, etc.


I call this "odd" because you spend the SP when you lose Concentration, rather than as part of casting the spell. (Though it may well accompany casting another Concentration spell.)

This reminds me of a couple of metamagics I thought up (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24395387&postcount=17) a while back:

Automatic Spell - This metamagic allows you to maintain concentration on two spells simultaneously. To do so, spend a number of sorcery points equal to the concentration spell’s level. On a subsequent turn, you may cast a second concentration spell that is of an equal or lower spell level, simultaneously maintaining concentration for both. The second spell can't be twinned. You may spend 0 sorcery points to concentrate on two cantrips in this way.

Whenever something like damage forces you to make a Concentration Save, you must make a separate save for each spell you're concentrating on, and must declare which roll is for which spell beforehand. Only one spell at a time can be an Automatic Spell.


Persistent Spell - When you cast a concentration spell, you may spend any number of sorcery points to make it persist for a number of rounds after your concentration ends equal to the number of sorcery points you spent. However, you still lose any ability to exert control over the spell after your concentration ends.

This metamagic can't extend a spell's duration beyond its maximum duration.


Though I'm not sure how they compare, balance-wise.