"bloodied" mechanics

[ProsecutorGodot]

4E used the term "bloodied" to signify that a creature was at or below half hit points. We don't have a lot of these features in 5E (we have only two that I can name off the top of my head, and they're both barely decent) but I sort of wish we did.

What sorts of things could be done using this mechanic? One of the homebrew feats our table uses, among a few other things, allows a character with the feat to take the Dodge Action as a bonus action if they start their turn while at or below half hit points. Could perhaps introducing mechanics that rely on maintaining a "healthy" (above half) hit point total also work?

[Garimeth]

4E used the term "bloodied" to signify that a creature was at or below half hit points. We don't have a lot of these features in 5E (we have only two that I can name off the top of my head, and they're both barely decent) but I sort of wish we did.

What sorts of things could be done using this mechanic? One of the homebrew feats our table uses, among a few other things, allows a character with the feat to take the Dodge Action as a bonus action if they start their turn while at or below half hit points. Could perhaps introducing mechanics that rely on maintaining a "healthy" (above half) hit point total also work?

Well, my group never played 4e, but we had somehting similar in 13a called "staggered" that I kept.

For us, no damage dealt prior to that point is physical, its all mental or exertion, or luck based. There may be outlying exceptions, but that's the general way we describe it. I will also tell my players when something is bloodied.

Other ways I use it is I trigger states or phases with it in a fight. so maybe a form changes, new abilities, change in tactics, etc.

In terms of full out homebrew, we use a modified rest/health system where a short rest is 8 hours and long rest is 72 hours of down time. I also have the top half of hp designated as Stamina, and the bottom half as Vitality. On a short rest a player recovers all their Stamina, but Vitality only restores from spending HD or magical healing.

[da newt]

The UA Gothic Lineages Dhampir race includes a bloodied clause for the racial BITE attack - when you are below 1/2 hp, your bite attack is made with ADV.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I do quite a lot of them, mostly modal shifts or once per fight reactions for monsters.

I've also done phase shifts like in a mmo, where the boss has 1/2 of his real health but changes at 0 the first time and restores to starting health. That's sort of bloodied, just with an "on 0 hp, restore to full and do X" trigger instead of a "at 1/2 hp do X" trigger.

[MrStabby]

4E used the term "bloodied" to signify that a creature was at or below half hit points. We don't have a lot of these features in 5E (we have only two that I can name off the top of my head, and they're both barely decent) but I sort of wish we did.

What sorts of things could be done using this mechanic? One of the homebrew feats our table uses, among a few other things, allows a character with the feat to take the Dodge Action as a bonus action if they start their turn while at or below half hit points. Could perhaps introducing mechanics that rely on maintaining a "healthy" (above half) hit point total also work?


Things that work above half HP can be a bit dangerous as it can tip the party into a doom-spiral. If one crit can stop a key feat working unexpectedly then it can have a big effect. Not saying it won't be fun, just be aware.

[Greywander]

This reminds me of a mechanic I've considered implementing. HP damage is just you getting tired and/or losing your will to keep fighting, and once you run out of HP then further damage comes out of your max HP and represents actual injuries (and reduced max HP shows how injuries make it harder to fight). In a sense, running out of HP represents the halfway point, sort of, though I also want it to impose disadvantages on your offensive abilities, so you're actually not meant to keep fighting while at 0 HP. This is basically an adaptation of Angry GM's Fighting Spirit rules hack; the idea is to have a state between "healthy" and "dying" where you can no longer fight effectively but you can still defend yourself or run away.

This does kind of seem like the opposite of a "bloodied" mechanic, though. From what I understand, usually a character/monster would get stronger when bloodied, not weaker, which makes for more interesting boss fights. It could also represent the creature suddenly becoming desperate and fighting that much more fiercely.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Things that work above half HP can be a bit dangerous as it can tip the party into a doom-spiral. If one crit can stop a key feat working unexpectedly then it can have a big effect. Not saying it won't be fun, just be aware.

I don't know if I'd suggest making anything vitally important based off of it, existing mechanics are fairly minor. Perhaps Champions would feel better about Survivor if they gained a benefit from it at all times rather than an incredibly small amount of healing in dire times that is unlikely to turn the tide in their favor.

Now, here me out, this is going to sound completely insane. How terrible would it be to let a Champion above half health have even more attacks?

[Greywander]

Now, here me out, this is going to sound completely insane. How terrible would it be to let a Champion above half health have even more attacks?
Based on a number of video games, usually these types of mechanics fall into one of two categories: only works while health is critical (below half/one third/one quarter/whatever), and only works while health is full. For example, a number of games let players get a lot of mileage out of items that boost your attack while your health is low; it's risky, but as long as you don't get hit you can kill bosses and enemies much faster. Other times you get a benefit only while full; it's the same idea in that you can't get hit, though not as risky since getting hit only means losing the bonus. With health-critical bonuses, you can retain the bonus if you take a hit, but dying is an actual danger.

I guess what I'm saying is that either of these mechanics is interesting because of the risk vs. reward. A bonus for just being above half health just doesn't seem interesting in the same way, since you're not at risk of dying but also taking a hit doesn't mean much either as long as you stay above half health.

Edit: It's probably also worth mentioning the death spiral effect. Generally speaking, the times when you're below half health are the times where you actually need an extra boost. Taking a bonus away because you dropped below half is only making things that much harder for you while you're already having a tough time.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Edit: It's probably also worth mentioning the death spiral effect. Generally speaking, the times when you're below half health are the times where you actually need an extra boost. Taking a bonus away because you dropped below half is only making things that much harder for you while you're already having a tough time.

What if they were swapped then? The Champion regenerates above half health, and when he drops below that he gets an extra attack. Let's be honest, the regen isn't going to save you in a pinch but an extra attack just might.

I get the point you're making though, losing things is probably bad regardless of how useful (or useless) those things are.

Bonuses while at full health could certainly be interesting, it could put even more value on Temp HP and active healing but I think it would be even easier for those things to end up doing nothing for a majority of the adventuring day than even the bloodied features would. Alternatively, in a game where the party goes for the 15 minute adventuring day, they could become a coup de grace that is relied on too extremely.

[Theodoxus]

Maybe take a page from the Hunter Ranger handbook, only reverse it? While the Champion is at full hit points (or above half, whichever), they deal an extra d8? I get an extra attack would be more welcome, just for the various things you can do with it - but I think a flat damage boost would be safer to implement without causing a disruption to balance.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Maybe take a page from the Hunter Ranger handbook, only reverse it? While the Champion is at full hit points (or above half, whichever), they deal an extra d8? I get an extra attack would be more welcome, just for the various things you can do with it - but I think a flat damage boost would be safer to implement without causing a disruption to balance.

I'd started with the idea of extra damage, but for this specific feature it's an 18th level capstone ability for the subclass, a little bit of bonus damage seemed like a joke on top of what is already a pitiful pickup for an 18th+ level character.

This wasn't exactly meant to be about rewriting Survivor though, it was just the most recognizable example, though it has shed plenty of light on where these sorts of mechanics can start to tread into questionable territory.

[Greywander]

Now that I think about it, it would be interesting if every class and every monster had some kind of special bonus while at full HP. Suddenly it becomes tactically advantageous to spread some damage around rather than focusing on a single enemy, as well as protecting specific party members from taking any damage. Once everyone's taken some damage it's back to business as usually, but I'd expect the first round or two of combat to focus on trying to damage each enemy just to remove their bonus.

This would also greatly increase the value of short rests, as there would be a big benefit to topping off your HP after a fight. I know it can be hard playing a short rest class when everyone else is a long rest class, so this could increase the number of short rests you'd take in such a party.

One thing to be aware of, though, is that this makes surprise attacks that much more deadly. If the whole party takes damage before even getting a turn, while the enemy is still at full HP and has a bonus, then the odds tilt even further against you.

[MrStabby]

Now that I think about it, it would be interesting if every class and every monster had some kind of special bonus while at full HP. Suddenly it becomes tactically advantageous to spread some damage around rather than focusing on a single enemy, as well as protecting specific party members from taking any damage. Once everyone's taken some damage it's back to business as usually, but I'd expect the first round or two of combat to focus on trying to damage each enemy just to remove their bonus.

This would also greatly increase the value of short rests, as there would be a big benefit to topping off your HP after a fight. I know it can be hard playing a short rest class when everyone else is a long rest class, so this could increase the number of short rests you'd take in such a party.

One thing to be aware of, though, is that this makes surprise attacks that much more deadly. If the whole party takes damage before even getting a turn, while the enemy is still at full HP and has a bonus, then the odds tilt even further against you.

Also already good spells like fireball can be supremely effective.

In general though I would like to see something like this, just to make the healing role more interesting. A binary dead/standing split is a little dull and makes healing magic uninteresting. A round by round choice of which abilities in the party to turnback on with some well-placed healing would be nice.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Also already good spells like fireball can be supremely effective.
There would also be a slim chance of lesser used AoE spells being favorable. Perhaps one of the AoE cantrips might have a niche to belong in.


In general though I would like to see something like this, just to make the healing role more interesting. A binary dead/standing split is a little dull and makes healing magic uninteresting. A round by round choice of which abilities in the party to turnback on with some well-placed healing would be nice.

My only worry in this is that incentivizing pushing people to full could start some strange meta-gamey behavior where the fighter takes an attack and the Cleric starts crunching numbers on exactly how hard he needs to go on Cure Wounds to bring the Fighter back to full.

It's a minor worry for me personally, but for those who are already struggling with the Hit Points/Damage abstraction of what they even represent it could bring a whole new layer of issues.

[kingcheesepants]

Mythic Odyssey of Theros has a few monsters with mythic traits and mythic actions. Which are abilities that start up after they're down a certain amount of HP. They make the boss monsters feel more epic and cool and I'd like to see more monsters with those kinds of traits for sure.

[Junbug]

Variations of the "bloodied" condition are a really handy tool in my experience with new players and the like. It also sets the tone for phase shifting the fight, and as a mile marker for how long the combat is going to go.

[MoiMagnus]

In our current campaign, half-HP is considered as the in-universe convention for non-lethal fights. That's the moment where peoples that are not willing to fight to the death are expected to surrender or flee. That's the moment where an honourable person should accept that they are defeated in an official duel. Etc.

In one of our homebrew that used daily mana/stamina/etc, characters started each fight at full HP, but falling at half-HP made you lose 10% of your current mana/stamina/etc (the first time of each fight only), same for falling at 0HP. This was a mechanism we put to encourage players to use their big fun spells/attacks pre-emptively rather than trying to keep their resources and only use boring at-will spells/attacks.

We also experimented a little with bloodied-effects, but without real success PC-side. It works very well for NPCs, but multiple-phase bosses are not an original idea.


Well, my group never played 4e, but we had somehting similar in 13a called "staggered" that I kept.

In the TTRPGs that I've played, the main difference between "bloodied" and "staggered" is that "bloodied" is a positive condition that gives bonuses / triggers abilities in order to increase the intensity of a fight, while "staggered" is a negative condition that accelerates the end of a fight.

[Imbalance]

It's primarily a simple descriptor in my games, where I've used it to indicate that the party has made significant progress in defeating a foe, but I have also role-played their enemies to change tactics, attempt to flee, become even more aggressive, surrender, etc. at half health or below. I haven't used it to alter stat blocks or any mechanics to date, but like some above have said there are ample video game features to draw inspiration from. One of my favorites is patently olde-skoole, but I'd love a feat like Link's ability to shoot sparks from his sword at full health. I also take a lot of my "bloodied/staggered/enraged" condition descriptions from Monster Hunter, and try to describe how a creature uses terrain or limps/drools/roars after taking a lot of hits with that game in mind, because I feel like that serves the narrative far better than giving them secret stats or bonuses when they're about to die.

[KorvinStarmast]

Now, here me out, this is going to sound completely insane. How terrible would it be to let a Champion above half health have even more attacks? It would be fine, given that it's a level 18 class feature. :smallsmile:

Variations of the "bloodied" condition are a really handy tool in my experience with new players and the like. It also sets the tone for phase shifting the fight, and as a mile marker for how long the combat is going to go. As a narrative tool, it is most excellent.

[Vogie]

Variations of the "bloodied" condition are a really handy tool in my experience with new players and the like. It also sets the tone for phase shifting the fight, and as a mile marker for how long the combat is going to go.

Same here.

I don't track player hit points, nor do I allow them to tell each other how hurt they are - they can say, for example, that they need to rest, but they have to tell me, and the rest of the party, when they're bloodied. It's super easy in Roll20, they just pop a red dot over their player icon. It'll be a bit harder when we get to meet in person, methinks.

I also will have creatures change tactics when they reach the bloodied condition, if they have an average or higher intelligence. The higher the intelligence, the more they care about their well-being, and they won't fight to the death, and will do things like flee/teleport/hide/dodge. That gives the difference between, for example, the playstyle between a Thug and an Orc, which are both CR 1/2. The less intelligent, the more likely they're going to fight to the death (without instruction, that is).

[Xervous]

Funny, I just had a lengthy discussion last night about Peak Performance styled effects.

The harder it is to meet the “mostly undamaged” condition the less valuable the effect is when compared to an always on version. So these abilities are almost always given higher stat budgets.

Problems arise when the magnitude of the effect is sufficient to polarize the character’s performance. A bonus that big will trivialize easy fights with consistency since the chance of the bonus falling off is nonexistent. Somewhere along the road up to a point roughly past the usual midpoint the bonus will apply often enough to outperform a lesser always active bonus. Beyond that the game will be stripping the bonus so frequently it might as well not exist. This often coincides with high difficulty and you just fell below the baseline, welcome to pain. Peak Performance effects typically offer disproportionate benefits to highly skilled players or above average characters and it’s left up to the scene to take that away from them.

Comeback mechanics on the other hand do nothing for easy fights and keep the players interested even when things aren’t quite going their way. A lot of fighting games get good mileage out of this, providing powerful options when a fighter is close to death to raise the stakes of each exchange and give the underdog more hope. It’s not always a guarantee for turning things around, absent the involvement of player skill it mainly serves to smooth out bad RNG.

[Catullus64]

It's not a hard mechanical rule, but a lot of players and I have shared conventions about the Bloodied threshold as a matter of roleplay. Since your character is not displaying physical injury while above half HP, and is only worn down in stamina and mentality, it's considered a bit gauche to drink healing potions or request healing spells while in that territory; if you do, your character is considered to be acting like a bit of a hypochondriac.

I think there's some real interesting potential in using the half-HP threshold as a basis for variant class features a la Cauldron. To wit:

Desperate Dodge (Replaces Uncanny Dodge, Rogue 5): When damage would reduce you to less than half your Hit Point maximum, you can use your reaction to halve the damage, and immediately move up to your speed without provoking opportunity attacks.

Wounded Instinct (Replaces Feral Instinct, Barbarian 7): While below half your Hit Point maximum, you cannot be surprised, and you have advantage on initiative checks. While in this state, you may choose to act first in on the first round of combat, instead of on your rolled initiative. On subsequent turns, you act on your normal initiative.

Aura of the Martyr (Replaces Aura of Courage, Paladin 10): While below half your Hit Point maximum, your pain and sacrifice sustain your companions. Whenever a friendly creature below half its Hit Point maximum starts its turn within 10 feet of you, or moves within 10 feet of you for the first time on a turn, that creature regains hit points equal to 2d8+your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1). At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.

Blood-Fueled Spell (Metamagic, Sorcerer 3): When damage reduces you to less than half your Hit Point maximum, you may expend 2 Sorcery Points to cast any spell with a casting time of 1 Action as a reaction.

Life Stealer (Eldritch Invocation, Warlock 5): While below half your Hit Point maximum, you can attempt to parasitically siphon the life force of another. As an action, choose one creature within 30 feet of you that you can see. That creature automatically takes necrotic damage equal to twice your Warlock level, and you regain Hit Points equal to the necrotic damage dealt. Once you have used this feature, you cannot use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

[Garimeth]

This reminds me of a mechanic I've considered implementing. HP damage is just you getting tired and/or losing your will to keep fighting, and once you run out of HP then further damage comes out of your max HP and represents actual injuries (and reduced max HP shows how injuries make it harder to fight). In a sense, running out of HP represents the halfway point, sort of, though I also want it to impose disadvantages on your offensive abilities, so you're actually not meant to keep fighting while at 0 HP. This is basically an adaptation of Angry GM's Fighting Spirit rules hack; the idea is to have a state between "healthy" and "dying" where you can no longer fight effectively but you can still defend yourself or run away.

We do something similar:
"In terms of full out homebrew, we use a modified rest/health system where a short rest is 8 hours and long rest is 72 hours of down time. I also have the top half of hp designated as Stamina, and the bottom half as Vitality. On a short rest a player recovers all their Stamina, but Vitality only restores from spending HD or magical healing. "

Which I modeled off of Star Wars d20.

In our current campaign, half-HP is considered as the in-universe convention for non-lethal fights. That's the moment where peoples that are not willing to fight to the death are expected to surrender or flee. That's the moment where an honourable person should accept that they are defeated in an official duel. Etc.

In the TTRPGs that I've played, the main difference between "bloodied" and "staggered" is that "bloodied" is a positive condition that gives bonuses / triggers abilities in order to increase the intensity of a fight, while "staggered" is a negative condition that accelerates the end of a fight.

Yeah mechanically in 13a it was the same as bloodied. The lead designers of 13a were the leads for 3e and 4e.

We also use the similar thing I quoted in your first paragraph. That's where "first blood" is reached.


Same here.

I don't track player hit points, nor do I allow them to tell each other how hurt they are - they can say, for example, that they need to rest, but they have to tell me, and the rest of the party, when they're bloodied. It's super easy in Roll20, they just pop a red dot over their player icon. It'll be a bit harder when we get to meet in person, methinks.

I also will have creatures change tactics when they reach the bloodied condition, if they have an average or higher intelligence. The higher the intelligence, the more they care about their well-being, and they won't fight to the death, and will do things like flee/teleport/hide/dodge. That gives the difference between, for example, the playstyle between a Thug and an Orc, which are both CR 1/2. The less intelligent, the more likely they're going to fight to the death (without instruction, that is).

LOL, we do the same thing, complete with the red dot. When we get to play in person it works out the same, but conversationally looks like this:

Player 1: How does Grognar look?

Player 2: He looks fine, maybe a bit winded.

Player 1: Ok how about Karsa?

Player 3: He's looking pretty jacked up, definitely bloodied.

Player 1: Ok, I use healing light on him.

[Samayu]

I don't track player hit points, nor do I allow them to tell each other how hurt they are - they can say, for example, that they need to rest, but they have to tell me, and the rest of the party, when they're bloodied. It's super easy in Roll20, they just pop a red dot over their player icon. It'll be a bit harder when we get to meet in person, methinks.

We used to put red discs under our minis.

[HPisBS]

Logically, you should have peak performance when... you're in peak condition. The more wounded you are, the more your technique should suffer.

So my vote would be for any extra bonus to be applied at >90% (If your "real" hp is included there.)

[Arcturus]

4e did a lot of great stuff with bloodied. One of the reasons the 4e barbarian was so fun to play was that you got a lot stronger when you were bloodied, making the “blood frenzy” aspect of barbarian more present in play than in any other edition.

There were also a lot of creatures and character abilities that had different effects when *targeting* bloodied characters. Eg. Vampires got big bonuses against bloodied targets.

In the 4e design paradigm Toll the Bell’s additional damage would almost certainly be based on bloodied rather than “not max”, which fits the spell’s flavor a bit more. Similarly certain heals could do more or less to bloodied target.

Having it as a universal designation rather than something that has to be constantly described in the rules as “below half hit points” made it a lot easier to tie into a number of abilities, and made it useful as a tool to track the progress of a fight.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Of what I remembered of 4e I think a basic mechanic was one could spend a healing surge. 5e equivalent would be to spend hit die.

Each class had specific benefits of some sort so one option might be to provide a minor boost in some fashion. Barbarians get small bonus to damage, clerics heal a little more etc. Few ideas but that is what the where in all minor general benefits or increase to specific powers.

[Vogie]

Of what I remembered of 4e I think a basic mechanic was one could spend a healing surge. 5e equivalent would be to spend hit die.

Healing Surge was a Variant Rule in the DMG. It was also included on one of the racial feats - I think the Dwarven feat gives you the ability to spend a hit die to heal whenever you take the dodge action.

[Kurt Kurageous]

In a sense, running out of HP represents the halfway point, sort of, though I also want it to impose disadvantages on your offensive abilities, so you're actually not meant to keep fighting while at 0 HP. This is basically an adaptation of Angry GM's Fighting Spirit rules hack; the idea is to have a state between "healthy" and "dying" where you can no longer fight effectively but you can still defend yourself or run away.

I wish even more people would read Angry.

The only effect I use hp=50% for is a self-preservation check on non-PCs. Sentient beings get it. Animals get it. Insects and slimes don't. Half HP means maybe looking for an exit.

No, I don't want a morale check mechanic for this. It's my call when the monsters know they cannot win and will surely if they stay in the fight. I also know their reasons for fighting, cultural expectations, etc. 50% HP is a good gauge. Angry has an unpublished (work in progress) method that uses percentages of the HP max to decide the 'status' of the creature.