Prediction: Belkar and Serini know each other

[Steakpie]

I fully expect a big reveal in the coming pages to be that Serini and Belkar already know each other. She could either be an aunt, long lost mentor, or heck even his mom. I think this makes sense for a couple of reasons.

First, every member of the order has had a storyline involving a family member and coming to terms with their past, expect for Belkar. Thematically it would fit with what OOTS is about.

Second, Belkar is on a redemption arc. I fully expect that this will culminate in him sacrificing himself for others and thereby fulfilling the oracle's prediction. Meeting someone important in his life could push him further along this arc.

Third, It would be a fresh and unique take. So far the order of the scrible has been somewhat elusive. This would be a nice way to tie in the past with the present.

A counterargument might be that Belkar should have recognised Serini through the flashbacks and crayon stories, but I don't think that's a problem. Belkar is the type of person who doesn't pay attention to details and might have missed it. Also Serini is just the type of person who might have assumed a different identity at some point before she met Belkar. With her going out and adventuring and dwelling in halfling society, there's been ample opportunity for them to have met.

What do you guys think?

Edit: a word

[Fyraltari]

I think The Giant said we'd never get a backstory for Belkar, so I don't see any "confronting your past" plot crop up.

The Order of the Scribble hasn't been elusive as much as, well... dead for the story, so I think that the simple fact that Serini is alive and interacting with our heroes (yes I count the paladins, but I'm fairly confident she's going to meet the Order of the Stick too) is already quite a change of pace. I don't see a reason why both Orders should be connected, it'd be a pretty massive coincidence if that happened and without much of a point.

[Peelee]

Third, It would be a fresh and unique take.

I don't know any that part, the whole "I am your father" main-charaxfer-has-surprise-personal-conmection thing had been done to death. People have been speculating that Belkar knew Serini ever since the Order of the Scibble was revealed, mostly because "hey two halfling let's theorize why they must know each other".

[elros]

One of the jokes about Belkar is that he represents a character that ignores backstory and non-combat skills, and just wants to stab everything. I have DMed players who made characters like that, and it was as frustrating for me as Belkar is to Roy!
I don't think Belkar has a past connection with Serini, but I agree that she will influence Belkar along his redemption ark.

[dancrilis]

There is no reason to assume Belkar and Serini know each other any more then Serini and Hank know each other.

However if they are closely connected it is possible that her being semi-troll was the reason that the Belkar was excluded from halfling games, kids exclude others for all sorts of reasons and 'your aunt is a monster' is not a difficult one to imagine - and such treatment would fit with Serini distancing herself from halfling society and Belkar becoming somewhat anti-social.

[Fyraltari]

There is no reason to assume Belkar and Serini know each other any more then Serini and Hank know each other.

However if they are closely connected it is possible that her being semi-troll was the reason that the Belkar was excluded from halfling games, kids exclude others for all sorts of reasons and 'your aunt is a monster' is not a difficult one to imagine - and such treatment would fit with Serini distancing herself from halfling society and Belkar becoming somewhat anti-social.

Serini encountered Xykon in the last decade, long after Belkar stopped being a child.

[dancrilis]

Serini encountered Xykon in the last decade, long after Belkar stopped being a child.

It is assumed that Xykon attacked Serini to get her diary and help him search for the gates.
It is possible that Xykon attacked a random halfling stole her diary for a fun read and when he got around to it decades later realised that it was useful for his ongoing plotline villianious plot.

Seperately Belkar is indicated to be around 28+ on the wiki and halflings become adults at minimum age 22 (the human equivalent of 16) - so a decade ago he could still have been a fairly young halfling.

[Fyraltari]

It is assumed that Xykon attacked Serini to get her diary and help him search for the gates.
It is possible that Xykon attacked a random halfling stole her diary for a fun read and when he got around to it decades later realised that it was useful for his ongoing plotline villianious plot. Seperately Belkar is indicated to be around 28+ on the wiki and halflings become adults at minimum age 22 (the human equivalent of 16) - so a decade ago he could still have been a fairly young halfling.[/quote]
Xykon disappeared "six years ago" and reappeared "three years ago" diary in hand. Occam's razor suggests Xykon got the diary during that three year period, which taking into account the time that passed in-comic is almost four-seven years ago.

[BloodSquirrel]

First, every member of the order has had a storyline involving a family member and coming to terms with their past, expect for Belkar. Thematically it would fit with what OOTS is about.

Every one of those stories was also foreshadowed a long time ago. Most of them while they were still in Dorukon's dungeon. The latest one I think we saw was Durkon's, which was established when they came to Azure City.

Well, except for V, who hasn't really had that storyline- V's story was about making a deal for more power, and V's family was just a motivating factor.

Meanwhile, I don't see how meeting someone from his past works with Belkar's current arc. Belkar doesn't feel guilty about things he's done in his past. He's never shown to have any fixation on any particular event in his past. He's currently coming to terms with the fact that he has an emotional connection to the people who are -right now- in his life.

If he decides to make a selfless, noble sacrifice, then it'll be because he feels like he owes Durkon, or Mr. Scruffy, or that he actually doesn't want V or Elan to die- not because he met his aunt who he cared so little about that he didn't even recognize her during the flashbacks.

[Ionathus]

It is possible that Xykon attacked a random halfling stole her diary for a fun read and when he got around to it decades later realised that it was useful for his ongoing plotline villianious plot.

Literally, mechanically possible? I suppose. Likely? No. Implied by the story? Not even in the slightest.

I mean, I know this forum is keen on wild unfounded speculation to justify theories that wouldn't really give a whole lot of payoff, but that logical leap is just far too big, even for us.

[The Pilgrim]

I think the theory of Belkar being Serini in disguise has better chances of happening.

[Peelee]

One of the jokes about Belkar is that he represents a character that ignores backstory and non-combat skills

The guy with ranks in Profession: Gourmet Chef?

[Ruck]

Literally, mechanically possible? I suppose. Likely? No. Implied by the story? Not even in the slightest.

I mean, I know this forum is keen on wild unfounded speculation to justify theories that wouldn't really give a whole lot of payoff, but that logical leap is just far too big, even for us.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I will add that I'd be more inclined to listen to these kinds of theories if the theorists can explain why such a connection would be meaningful to the story, beyond, say, making for a moment of surprising revelation.

[KorvinStarmast]

I fully expect a big reveal in the coming pages to be that Serini and Belkar already know each other. She could either be an aunt, long lost mentor, or heck even his mom.
Aunt Judy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html)? Maybe. (Though 'death, destruction, meaningless carnage' does not seem to fit Serini's personal style). I'll bet the under on that one.

His mom? No.

Also, I am pretty sure Rich has said long ago that he's not going to write a detailed backstory for Belkar since he doesn't want there to be any excuses made about "oh, that's why he's a murdering psychopath" - might have been a post or a commentary in one of the books. I'll check DStP, it might have been in there.
Edit: it was something along the lines of this from OtOotPC:

...some of the characters demand a backstory to explain why they act the way they do, and others would be ruined by it. Do we really want to know why Belkar is so psychopathic? For example, if I created a backstory where Belkar was emotionally scarred as a child, wouldn’t his outrageous behavior become more sad than funny? for some reason, I recall seeing Rich make a stronger statement about 'not going there' but I am not sure where that was. (Perhaps the genius Banana can point me to it)


Second, Belkar is on a redemption arc. Which is fine, but doesn't require a family connection reveal to take place.


Third, It would be a fresh and unique take.
???
I don't know any that part, the whole "I am your father" main-charaxfer-has-surprise-personal-conmection thing had been done to death. People have been speculating that Belkar knew Serini ever since the Order of the Scibble was revealed, mostly because "hey two halfling let's theorize why they must know each other". When I was in the Navy (which had about 400,000 people in it) I often got "So, you're in the Navy, do you know {a name I didn't recognize}?" and would just respond with "No, it's a big Navy on two coasts ..."

There is no reason to assume Belkar and Serini know each other any more then Serini and Hank know each other. Her chances to know Hank might be higher since they are both rogues.

However if they are closely connected it is possible that her being semi-troll was the reason that the Belkar was excluded from halfling games, kids exclude others for all sorts of reasons and 'your aunt is a monster' is not a difficult one to imagine - and such treatment would fit with Serini distancing herself from halfling society and Belkar becoming somewhat anti-social. Interesting idea, not sure the time lines overlap correctly for that.

[brian 333]

I will bet 7 quatloos that Serini has detailed knowledge of Belkar, (and the other members of the party,) but I will also bet 10 quatloos that Belkar knows nothing about her other than what we have seen revealed to the party and that they are not related other than by a common race.

(Of course, having made the bet, Rich will now write the story so that he can collect...)

Serini's exact wording appears to imply that she has detailed knowledge of O'Chul's actions at a time and place in which there were only a handful of possible witnesses.

She could have eavesdropped on TE, but I don't think they are the kind to ruminate on months-old mistakes. She could have gotten it from O'Chul while he was under the influence of her drug, I suppose. But I find it most likely that she got the info while doing what she proposed none of the Scribblers do: she was spying on the other gates.

[Dr.Zero]

Also, I am pretty sure Rich has said long ago that he's not going to write a detailed backstory for Belkar since he doesn't want there to be any excuses made about "oh, that's why he's a murdering psychopath" - might have been a post or a commentary in one of the books. I'll check DStP, it might have been in there.

Which makes me wonder why Belkar is a no and X and RC have been a yes. (X and RC were, ofc, needed to give depth to their personalities, but again, why that can't be done with B?)
(On a side note, Professor X was an a..hole victim)

Back the topic, I don't think we will see them realated in any way.
Halfling is just a common game race, like elves and dwarves, thinking that two random halflings must know each other is like thinking that two random dwarves or elves need to know each other (and just a step below thinking that two random humans need to know each other).

[Fyraltari]

Which makes me wonder why Belkar is a no and X and RC have been a yes. (X and RC were, ofc, needed to give depth to their personalities, but again, why that can't be done with B?)
(On a side note, Professor X was an a..hole victim)

Back the topic, I don't think we will see them realated in any way.
Halfling is just a common game race, like elves and dwarves, thinking that two random halflings must know each other is like thinking that two random dwarves or elves need to know each other (and just a step below thinking that two random humans need to know each other).
Xykon wasn't really given a backstory as much as a criminal record. Nothing in Start of Darkness explains why Xykon is the way he is. He just is, like Belkar. Redcloak's violence, unlike Xykon's or Belkar's isn't random, it has a history that the Giant wants us to know, so we can understand why he is the way he is. Unlike Xykon and Belkar he could have grown up a well-balanced, contributing member of society. But, because of things he had no control over he didn't. Which isn't to say that Redcloak's actions are excused, but still.

[Good Coyote]

I doubt they're actually related (by blood or by history) but they are connected by one thing, and I hope that means we will learn more about it.

Namely, halfling culture and society. We really don't know that much. Someone with a troll face doesn't fit in there, "they're supposed to be jolly," and other than that, uh... they play the games where you throw the rock, throw the stick, and throw the rock and then the stick shortly thereafter. Oh and they totally carry sheets of lead to prove their manhood.

Hilgya and Durkon didn't have a personal history (yet) when she first showed up, but having two entirely unrelated dwarves on the table gave us a chance to start learning about dwarf society.

At this point it's unlikely that halfling culture will hold as much plot importance as that. But I still hope we can get maybe as good a picture of what halfling society is like as we do a vague idea of the place that elves have in oots-world.

[KorvinStarmast]

Which makes me wonder why Belkar is a no and X and RC have been a yes. Rich wants his antagonists to be more than two dimensional characters. (Yeah, I know, joke about the art and comic strip, ha ha ha) If the antagonists have more depth to 'who they are' it can make for a more interesting story. Also, we know the motivation of the Order, why not balance it out with the motivation of their major rivals?

Slightly off topic, but it seems to me that since the Red Cloak is an artifact, it will profoundly effect the person wearing it (or if you were playing 5e D&D, attuned to it). Or in RedCloak's case, bound to it.

I get the idea that a part of his problem, when he had that conversation in SoD about the Plan, is that while he's having that conversation he's still wearing the cloak. If, as we had discussed in a different thread, the cloak is an artifact, those items usually have, in D&D, powerful negative side effects.

As a parallel, by the end of LoTR Frodo cannot bear to rid himself of the ring; it has too much power over him. Reddy has been wearing that cloak for decades. Maybe he can't take it off, or he keeps failing that 'contest' (intelligent magic items have had that thing vis a vis PCs since the original game) roll and spews out excuses for why he won't take it off. (Very unlikely, given how Rich has written the character and how important choices are shown to be time and again for all characters - but certainly consistent with 'game structure' from which this story draws its origins).

Reddy's trapped either way: by his own emotional investment, or by the power of the artifact.

[DaFlipp]

I don't really think they'll have known each other, if for no other reason than that Belkar has officially reached the point where he gives a damn about the overarching plot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1188.html) and probably would've said "Oh, right, I know her" at some point.

That said, assuming she does meet the Order and they have more than a moment's face time with each other, it would be interesting to see if she has any affect on Belkar's ongoing character arc away from poorly-concealed, bloodthirsty malice, and toward... well, either better-concealed malice *or* toward being a better person, depending upon who in the forum you ask, not trying to revive that debate here.

I mean, here's another halfling who seems to at least theoretically be One Of The Good Guys, but who also poisons, kidnaps, and taunts paladins without remorse. That's the kind of "good" that he might be able to get behind/emulate.

[diplomancer]

Serini's exact wording appears to imply that she has detailed knowledge of O'Chul's actions at a time and place in which there were only a handful of possible witnesses.

She could have eavesdropped on TE, but I don't think they are the kind to ruminate on months-old mistakes. She could have gotten it from O'Chul while he was under the influence of her drug, I suppose. But I find it most likely that she got the info while doing what she proposed none of the Scribblers do: she was spying on the other gates.

Maybe someone mentioned it already; but it's quite possible that, though Serini wasn't spying on any gate before being attacked by Xykon, and had no plans to do so at all, once she WAS attacked and, instead of taking all her valuable magical items, all he took was her diary, she realized the danger to the gates that diary poses and decided to keep closer tabs on them.

So she didn't witness the destruction of Lirian's gate, but it's possible she witnessed the others (and, I'd say, almost certain she's witnessed the destruction of Soon's gate; yes, it was a last-panel joke which might have been just a 4th wall break; but her wording was TOO specific; she somehow saw what happened or at least learned about it somehow)

[woweedd]

Which makes me wonder why Belkar is a no and X and RC have been a yes. (X and RC were, ofc, needed to give depth to their personalities, but again, why that can't be done with B?)
(On a side note, Professor X was an a..hole victim)

Back the topic, I don't think we will see them realated in any way.
Halfling is just a common game race, like elves and dwarves, thinking that two random halflings must know each other is like thinking that two random dwarves or elves need to know each other (and just a step below thinking that two random humans need to know each other).

He didn't really give Xykon a backstory. Xykon's backstory isn't tragic, if anything, it's a pastiche of the concept of a tragic backstory. We're shown that there is no justification to Xykon, no reason behind it: He's been a remorseless little psycho since he was 4 years old. Nothing in his backstory why he is the way he is, he just is. Redcloak does get a tragic backstory, of course, but, then, he's meant to be sympathetic and tragic, and so, how he ended up down this path is something that matters. But Xykon and Belkar have no motive: Even when we learn Xykon's backstory, it doesn't explain ****.

[Ron Miel]

Xykon disappeared "six years ago" and reappeared "three years ago" diary in hand. Occam's razor suggests Xykon got the diary during that three year period, which taking into account the time that passed in-comic is almost four-seven years ago.

It's remarkable how much she has aged in that time. Brown hair to white in just 4 years.

[locksmith of lo]

we do not need a back story on belkar or xykon, just like we did not need a backstory on the joker or michael myers. creating or elaborating a backstory to give them motivations and justify their actions sometimes just makes the character less interesting. there would be no amount of story justifying why belkar is a psychotic mass murderer that would make him more interesting. he is becoming more interesting by what he is doing now. this is what minrah told him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html), basically that from now on new people would only know him by how he is today rather his past. we do not need a serini to know belkar to further the development of his character, it is already developing well by itself. :smallsmile:

[Dr.Zero]

we do not need a back story on belkar or xykon, just like we did not need a backstory on the joker or michael myers.

I disagree.
Both regarding the latter Joker's movie and the Rob Zombie's version of Halloween (which I found way better than the original, when compared ignoring the year when they were filmed and the fact that, you know, the reboot couldn't exist without the original).

(My previous statement doesn't include Rob's Halloween 2: that sucked really bad, imo).

[dancrilis]

I believe that the backstories for Belkar and Xykon differ in why they weren't told.

Xykon - The Giant didn't want to make him sympathic.
Belkar - The Giant felt that writing a backstory for him would require it to be miserable, and as such would take away from the comedy of the character.

If I am remembering correctly anyway.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean, here's another halfling who seems to at least theoretically be One Of The Good Guys, but who also poisons, kidnaps, and taunts paladins without remorse. That's the kind of "good" that he might be able to get behind/emulate. The glee with which Belkar taunted Miko was good stuff; Serini's got a different style.

He didn't really give Xykon a backstory. Xykon's backstory isn't tragic, if anything, it's a pastiche of the concept of a tragic backstory. We're shown that there is no justification to Xykon, no reason behind it: He's been a remorseless little psycho since he was 4 years old. My take on the Xykon back story concept: if you give a four year old super powers (sorcery/necromanci)you can't expect the child to develop normally. (At this point, we might transition into a pages-long argument about the X Men movies and I'd rather not do that).

It's remarkable how much she has aged in that time. Brown hair to white in just 4 years. IRL the rapid onset of grey/silver/white hair due to extreme stress is a known phenomenon.
Xykon - The Giant didn't want to make him sympathic.
Belkar - The Giant felt that writing a backstory for him would require it to be miserable, and as such would take away from the comedy of the character.

If I am remembering correctly anyway. Sounds about right.

[Schroeswald]

It's remarkable how much she has aged in that time. Brown hair to white in just 4 years.

I’m of the opinion that for adults aging in the oots world happens as characters move between age categories, all at once. Serini has grey hair because she moved age categories.

[Peelee]

I’m of the opinion that for adults aging in the oots world happens as characters move between age categories, all at once. Serini has grey hair because she moved age categories.

Seeing as we know canonically that old age death happens on birthdays, that seems to fit.

[Squire Doodad]

I doubt they're actually related (by blood or by history) but they are connected by one thing, and I hope that means we will learn more about it.

Namely, halfling culture and society. We really don't know that much. Someone with a troll face doesn't fit in there, "they're supposed to be jolly," and other than that, uh... they play the games where you throw the rock, throw the stick, and throw the rock and then the stick shortly thereafter. Oh and they totally carry sheets of lead to prove their manhood.

It actually can be any metal of their choice, lead is merely the most cost-efficient option in halfling cities.

[Finagle]

Belkar - The Giant felt that writing a backstory for him would require it to be miserable, and as such would take away from the comedy of the character.
Belkar represents the RPG player who shows up with zero preparation, rolls some kind of warrior, puts no effort into roleplaying, and solves every problem by setting fires or killing things. Rich certainly played with enough of them, as evidenced by this non-OOTS comic he wrote:

https://i.imgur.com/TxsY4Ix.gif

[Synesthesy]

Xykon wasn't really given a backstory as much as a criminal record. Nothing in Start of Darkness explains why Xykon is the way he is. He just is, like Belkar. Redcloak's violence, unlike Xykon's or Belkar's isn't random, it has a history that the Giant wants us to know, so we can understand why he is the way he is. Unlike Xykon and Belkar he could have grown up a well-balanced, contributing member of society. But, because of things he had no control over he didn't. Which isn't to say that Redcloak's actions are excused, but still.

While I agree with almost everything you said, I just want to point out that, in my opinion, Xykon has a backstory that expains why he is the way he is: he was born that way. Yeah I know that it's almost the same as you said, but if you are good you can build an entire movie around this. Instead for Belkar we don't know why he is as he is. We don't know now if Belkar could have grown up a well-balanced member of society or not. We know that Redcloak could, we know that Xykon couldn't, we don't know if Belkar could.

Then, I see things different from the Giant. I always think that everything must have a backstory. I know that he doesn't agree with me.

[Ruck]

Then, I see things different from the Giant. I always think that everything must have a backstory. I know that he doesn't agree with me.

Neither does David Mamet (or Shawn Ryan (https://www.inlander.com/spokane/the-chicago-code/Content?oid=2134181), who made the greatest TV drama in history-- no, not The Chicago Code).

For the record, I agree with them. I find it much more interesting to see what people do and what motivates them than to explain why they are that way. I find backstory often puts distance between us and the character, whereas what makes drama powerful to me is our ability to identify and empathize with the character.

[Peelee]

Neither does David Mamet (or Shawn Ryan (https://www.inlander.com/spokane/the-chicago-code/Content?oid=2134181), who made the greatest TV drama in history-- no, not The Chicago Code).

Shawn Ryan was involved in Law & Order? :smalltongue:

[Ruck]

Shawn Ryan was involved in Law & Order? :smalltongue:

I don't have a good snarky comment in response, so I'll just reiterate my devotion to The Shield, which I'm sure I've brought up several times before.

[Peelee]

I don't have a good snarky comment in response, so I'll just reiterate my devotion to The Shield, which I'm sure I've brought up several times before.

I figured. I also very nearly said Better Call Saul instead but thought you'd enjoy some variety.