Portent has been used incorrectly for five levels - what to do?

[Darth Credence]

Well, I just found out that I have screwed up. My current campaign is the first time I've run 5e - before it has always been AD&D. So a divination wizard is new to me, and I really didn't review it well enough at the time. Because of a different thread on here, I had reason to have a look at the divination wizard, and almost choked on my drink when I read:


You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls. You must choose to do so before the roll, and you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn.

Well, that is not how we have been playing it. The player has always used it as a replacement after the roll has already been made. It seems clear to me that the RAW is better balanced, and also easier to describe in world. We even established a countdown so that people would have time to jump in with something like portent (or anything that should be done after the roll) - after the roll, I give a silent hand countdown for time to jump in with something changing the results.

So the fundamental problem is, do I just keep on with how we have been doing it, or do I announce to the table that I found an error and start playing RAW from here on out? I don't think the player was trying to pull a fast one, I think they just missed the same rule I did. Do I, perhaps, bring it up to the table and let the group decide?

[ImproperJustice]

Just talk to the other player, show then the rule.

Ask then what they think would be fair.

Are they ok if you proceed with changing the rule correctly?

Would this change spur them to respec their character? If so, allow them the chance to do so.
Make it a discussion.

They may be loaded heavily with control spells, banking on enemies to fail saves. They may want to go in a blaster direction if they feel the change “nerfs” them.

Or they may wanna just revert to a Fighter for simplicity. Just work with them and make sure that they know they will still be able to have fun at your table.

Chances are you are both grown ups and should be able to work out a compromise that is fair and easy.

[Catullus64]

Obviously add me to the usual roll of "talk to the player in question" comments.

That said, if I were in your shoes, I would push for changing to the correct, printed rule. I think that it sets a bad precedent to stick to a misruling after the fact, and it may upset players in the future if you catch a similar error of greater consequence and try to fix that.

[Darth Credence]

Good call, everyone. I'll get with them before the next session, let them know that the rule was read wrong, and work with them to make their character work the way they want while running the rule correctly. Thanks!

[Nifft]

Yeah talk to the player.

Don't blame the player, and freely accept blame if the player blames you ("yeah I definitely read it wrong") -- the only important thing is doing better going forward.


D&D is interesting to run because you sometimes want to neutralize emotional reactions and at other times you want to maximize them.

[Keravath]

Talking to the player is the best first step.

However, RAW just means that you need to decide to use the portent die instead of the die roll. You can still ensure a pass or failure, however, you don't get to see if they would fail on their own first. Letting the player see the die roll let's them conserve their uses of portent to change what happens afterward as opposed to foreseeing what happens. The RAW usage is less versatile but many players still find it to be strong enough.

[nickl_2000]

One thing I would add into this.

If you want to enforce the rule and make it work that way it is supposed to by RAW, give the player a free rebuild option.

[MaxWilson]

Well, I just found out that I have screwed up. My current campaign is the first time I've run 5e - before it has always been AD&D. So a divination wizard is new to me, and I really didn't review it well enough at the time. Because of a different thread on here, I had reason to have a look at the divination wizard, and almost choked on my drink when I read:



Well, that is not how we have been playing it. The player has always used it as a replacement after the roll has already been made. It seems clear to me that the RAW is better balanced, and also easier to describe in world. We even established a countdown so that people would have time to jump in with something like portent (or anything that should be done after the roll) - after the roll, I give a silent hand countdown for time to jump in with something changing the results.

So the fundamental problem is, do I just keep on with how we have been doing it, or do I announce to the table that I found an error and start playing RAW from here on out? I don't think the player was trying to pull a fast one, I think they just missed the same rule I did. Do I, perhaps, bring it up to the table and let the group decide?

There's nothing wrong with letting the group decide, but allow me to point out that Portent scales with the strength of the spells you're using. For the first five levels it's good but not great. Once e.g. Polymorph comes online at level 7, it gets significantly stronger. (It also scales with the strength of monster abilities, to prevent them from working.) Therefore, don't use your past experience alone to judge the impact the rule change will have going forward.

If you're going to have a table discussion, make sure they are all aware of this.

[Darth Credence]

I just had lunch with the player in question, and brought it up. He was surprised at the reading, and we looked up the PHB on it to see how it is by RAW. We talked it over, and he was fully on board with using it in the correct manner from here on out, turning down the offer to let him rebuild the character if he wanted to. We seem to have caught this just in time, as he will be hitting level 7 as a wizard as soon as we finish the current quest.

So it all turned out fine! Thanks again for all of the input.

[Lupine]

Ok. Bit late here, but I'm actually going to deviate from the hive mind, a little bit. I agree, letting the player know that changes are incoming is definitely in order. Don't blindside your players.
but.
Why just quietly change it? You're a DM. You tell stories, and the rules are merely your tool. So, a player has gotten a inadvertent buff. That's not great. However, think about why that might be.

Perhaps a wizard is trying to cheat the odds, and escape death. As he does so, the powers of divination, and chance/fate in particular is getting swollen, as the wizard tries to increase his hold over reality. I see two easy ways to take this from here, depending on flavor.
1) The villain-wizard pulled too greedily! And much of the borders of reality as we know it have been breached. The blood war spills over into the material plane, and vast areas turn to air as the elemental air plane bleeds into the material as well. The damage can be undone if the wizard is defeated --but first, the players must find shelter for themselves and their loved ones, before figuring out how to survive in this new chaos. possibly bring in the rules from Limbo, where players can move rocks with their mind, if they think hard enough.
2) The villain-wizard seeking to cheat death has pulled as much power as he could. However, other diviners hold enough divination energy that the villain-wizard can't draw enough. Now, he goes on a methodical killing spree, eliminating other diviners, The party diviner begins to fear he might be next...
Regardless of which way you go, at the end, life goes back to normal, and fate/chance become, as the energy of the world begins to regenerate. Afterwards, the party wizard finds that the weave of fate/chance is less accessible.

In many DM-ing videos, they always talk about the importance of letting players "fail forward" --letting them fail in ways that move the story forward (such as a failed lockpicking roll unlocking, but makes a sound alerting the guards)-- however, I believe that advice is available to DMs too. When you fail with the rules, you can meekly accept it, return to RAW, and then drive on (failure without meaning), or take it and run with it, using the rule discrepancy to drive a new story.

D&D is ultimately a shared storytelling experience, and the rules are merely meant to guide what is possible. So yes, you messed up the rules. So what? make it into an experience that the players will enjoy for years.

[JNAProductions]

Echoing the "Talk to the player and don't blame people, just fix the mistake."

I'll also echo "Let them rebuild, if they want to."

It's easy to make mistakes even when it's something important. In a game, it's that much easier. So don't blame them, just let them know that a mistake has been made, and fix it going forward, or officially houserule it to what they thought it was.

Let us know how it goes!

[nickl_2000]

Echoing the "Talk to the player and don't blame people, just fix the mistake."

I'll also echo "Let them rebuild, if they want to."

It's easy to make mistakes even when it's something important. In a game, it's that much easier. So don't blame them, just let them know that a mistake has been made, and fix it going forward, or officially houserule it to what they thought it was.

Let us know how it goes!

The phrase I generally use as a player is "I just realized I've been accidently cheating this entire game because of this. Sorry about that, I will do it the right way in the future." Luckily we are a group of friends and things happen. In fact, a DM forgot about concentration mechanics on NPCs for almost an entire campaign (dang those were some brutal spellcaster fights).

[ImproperJustice]

I just had lunch with the player in question, and brought it up. He was surprised at the reading, and we looked up the PHB on it to see how it is by RAW. We talked it over, and he was fully on board with using it in the correct manner from here on out, turning down the offer to let him rebuild the character if he wanted to. We seem to have caught this just in time, as he will be hitting level 7 as a wizard as soon as we finish the current quest.

So it all turned out fine! Thanks again for all of the input.

Dude. This is great.
Thanks for following up and posting.
It’s wonderful whenever people can work things out, and enjoy one of the greatest hobbies on Earth together!

[nickl_2000]

I just had lunch with the player in question, and brought it up. He was surprised at the reading, and we looked up the PHB on it to see how it is by RAW. We talked it over, and he was fully on board with using it in the correct manner from here on out, turning down the offer to let him rebuild the character if he wanted to. We seem to have caught this just in time, as he will be hitting level 7 as a wizard as soon as we finish the current quest.

So it all turned out fine! Thanks again for all of the input.

Alls well that ends well :smallcool:

[fbelanger]

As raw it is one of best wizard ability, so don’t feel shy don’t apply the raw.
You can explain that there was a special mystic connection for a while that allow the pc to do better portent, and maybe .... this could be redone in the future....

[MaxWilson]

The phrase I generally use as a player is "I just realized I've been accidently cheating this entire game because of this. Sorry about that, I will do it the right way in the future." Luckily we are a group of friends and things happen. In fact, a DM forgot about concentration mechanics on NPCs for almost an entire campaign (dang those were some brutal spellcaster fights).

Yeah, I had a case where a player misremembered the size of an AoE (thought Evard's Black Tentacles was 40' x 40') and I took the player's word for it, and it turned out to be incredibly tactically important (may have prevented a TPK). We discovered this next session, and I just retconned it as an extremely improbable Wild Magic surge which temporarily boosted the spell for unexplained reasons, and we moved on.

Sometimes people make mistakes, and in the game world, sometimes things happen. It's okay.