Bugbear artificer - Need input on being lanky

[Quietus]

Something I am toying around with now that adventurer's league has expanded what's allowed; a bugbear artificer (armorer), as a combat harasser/tank. The Guardian armor gets to punch things for 1d8 thunder damage (attack/damage based on Int), and apply disadvantage if their target attacks anyone other than them. With bugbear's long arms, this means that I could be slapping people from a distance and leaving the area, forcing them to decide whether to chase me (and contend with some very high AC), or chase my allies. Booming Blade is also an option, though I'd have to get adjacent to use it, so less immediately viable.

Also an option : Touch spells like Shocking Grasp, cast from 10 feet away.

What I'm looking for is any thoughts that you guys might have on other tricks that would work with this. I'm thinking about using Expeditious Retreat to be able to more effectively hit-and-run, turning this into a seriously lanky speedster who darts around the battlefield and distracts the high value targets; at level 9, I would be able to do the same with Haste. Does the hivemind have ideas for other tricks the armorer can use, that would be enhanced by, or be particularly on-brand for, a bugbear? Or general stuff that would help in being a truly discouraging force on the battlefield?

::Edit:: For clarity, I'm looking for things that would benefit :
- Using long arms for hit-and-run attacks
- Ambushes to get that +2d6 surprise attack
- Anything that plays into the sneaky/cunning stereotype of a bugbear

[Nefariis]

I love ninja bears!

Here is an easy build that would work well, give you tons of utility, spells, and tick all your boxes.

Hexblade 1 or 2, Arcane Trickster X and the Mobile Feat

You will have 40 feet of movement, hit and run tactics, sneak attack damage dice, Hex damage dice, hexblade's curse damage dice, expertise stealth, crazy stealth-like spells, multiple ways to get advantage, a familiar, tons of utility, access to all wizard cantrips (SG, GFB, BB, etc.), CHA SAD, and Medium Armor/Shield.

Mobile with booming blade is a great combo after level 5/11, and the sneak/hex damage is gravy

Or if you want real cheese, do hexblade 3 and use the devils sight/darkness combo to guarantee your damage - usually though I try not to take more than 1 or 2 of hexblade because of the delay in sneak attack dice.

[stoutstien]

Bugboy armorer seems like a perfect fit. You could stack up int and dex knowing you can infusion your strength up latter to make a decent flying stretch armstrong shove+Thunder puncher. Toss on the lite aoe control spell and you can deal with hordes as well. Good kit all together.

Early game the homunclus is a good investment for better action economy and making your emergency healing more applicable.

SSI + mirror image is a party buff that can make anything that doesn't have the ability to see past illusions cry. I've seen it single handling turn one of the big fights in decent into a joke.

If that's not your bag MM or shatter spamming familiars is a good way to bait reactions or just be a general pain.

[Quietus]

I love ninja bears!

Here is an easy build that would work well, give you tons of utility, spells, and tick all your boxes.

Hexblade 1 or 2, Arcane Trickster X and the Mobile Feat

You will have 40 feet of movement, hit and run tactics, sneak attack damage dice, Hex damage dice, hexblade's curse damage dice, expertise stealth, crazy stealth-like spells, multiple ways to get advantage, a familiar, tons of utility, access to all wizard cantrips (SG, GFB, BB, etc.), CHA SAD, and Medium Armor/Shield.

Mobile with booming blade is a great combo after level 5/11, and the sneak/hex damage is gravy

Or if you want real cheese, do hexblade 3 and use the devils sight/darkness combo to guarantee your damage - usually though I try not to take more than 1 or 2 of hexblade because of the delay in sneak attack dice.

That's a fun build, but it doesn't really fit what I'm aiming to do here, unfortunately. What you've got here is very "striker", and has a place, but I'm aiming to lean into that defender role... but I'm aiming to do it not by standing still and taking hits, but rather by slapping a target so hard it makes it difficult to target other people, and then getting outside retaliation range. I want to make all their options bad.


Bugboy armorer seems like a perfect fit. You could stack up int and dex knowing you can infusion your strength up latter to make a decent flying stretch armstrong shove+Thunder puncher. Toss on the lite aoe control spell and you can deal with hordes as well. Good kit all together.

Early game the homunclus is a good investment for better action economy and making your emergency healing more applicable.

SSI + mirror image is a party buff that can make anything that doesn't have the ability to see past illusions cry. I've seen it single handling turn one of the big fights in decent into a joke.

If that's not your bag MM or shatter spamming familiars is a good way to bait reactions or just be a general pain.

I'm actually planning on going for int and con, as of level 3 I expect to rebuild my stat line into : 10 str, 13 dex, 16 con, 17 int, 10 wis, 8 cha. This allows me to take Fey Ancestry at level 4 (pick up Hunter's Mark for the ability to follow a quarry and bump up that 1d8+int thunderpunch damage, plus Misty Step), +2 int at level 8, and Skill Expert (Stealth expertise/+1 dex) at level 12, giving a +10 stealth check. Even in full plate armor, I can use a cloak of elvenkind to roll stealth straight, and provide disadvantage on my opponents' perception checks. And in a pinch, I could apply Flash of Genius to make that a +15 stealth.

However, your comment about shove+thunderpunch is a good one, and that's real tempting now. I could take Athletics, get Shield Master as a feat, and force my strength score up to 19... and could still use the armor of magical strength to add intelligence to the check as well. Though, Shield Master has the significant limitation that I'd have to be within 5 feet, long limbs need not apply. Trying to think of a way to get a knock-down effect on melee attacks without multiclassing battlemaster or open palm monk....

Right now my default for the level 16/19 feats would be +2 con both times, and end up with 203 HP at level 20, with 6 uses of a bonus action 20 temp HP. But I'm definitely open to changing that up, if I ever actually get there and there's a more interesting option. Con saves of +19 (proficiency +6, constitution +5, cloak +1 and ring +1 of protection, and +6 from the capstone) would be absurd, though, and there's a real temptation to that.

[Nagog]

Depending on what your playstyle is, a few levels into Barbarian for Reckless Attack would incentivize them to attack you, and combined with the Thunder Gauntlets, really discourage attacking anything else. Once you hit level 10, picking up the fan favorite Winged Boots allows you to slap their head around from 10 feet /above/ them, which is more insult to injury than anything else, but also lends to getting out of reach easier and accessing multiple enemies a a time. Furthermore, considering the Thunder Gauntlets are Simple Melee weapons, investing in Dual Weilding to get an extra Thunder Gauntlet schmack as a Bonus Action is a lot of fun. Alternatively, using a TSAR with Thunderwave in it can allow you to smack a few hoes, and use your Bonus Action to command your Tiny Servants to hold their actions to use your Spell Storing Item (Thunderwave) on any targets that move close to you. With all of these things combined (Reckless Attack, TSAR, Winged Boots), you don't have any concentration spells running and this style has no need for casting, so you could be Raging all the while. A flying, raging, Thunder Smacking, Thunderwaving Gorilla in a battle suit. Hell, now I want to play this build. XD

[da newt]

Topic adjacent - the Echo Knight subclass is also very handy for this combat style, especially when combined w/ Ancestral Guardian Barbarian. It might be worth looking through some of those builds for tactics / ideas.

[Quietus]

Depending on what your playstyle is, a few levels into Barbarian for Reckless Attack would incentivize them to attack you, and combined with the Thunder Gauntlets, really discourage attacking anything else. Once you hit level 10, picking up the fan favorite Winged Boots allows you to slap their head around from 10 feet /above/ them, which is more insult to injury than anything else, but also lends to getting out of reach easier and accessing multiple enemies a a time. Furthermore, considering the Thunder Gauntlets are Simple Melee weapons, investing in Dual Weilding to get an extra Thunder Gauntlet schmack as a Bonus Action is a lot of fun. Alternatively, using a TSAR with Thunderwave in it can allow you to smack a few hoes, and use your Bonus Action to command your Tiny Servants to hold their actions to use your Spell Storing Item (Thunderwave) on any targets that move close to you. With all of these things combined (Reckless Attack, TSAR, Winged Boots), you don't have any concentration spells running and this style has no need for casting, so you could be Raging all the while. A flying, raging, Thunder Smacking, Thunderwaving Gorilla in a battle suit. Hell, now I want to play this build. XD

That's actually kind of awesome! I somehow totally missed the "dancing above their head and slapping them in the noggin" pro move at level 10, definitely going to have to do that. I've considered the TWF route, but I think I want to keep my bonus actions clear for later? I'd definitely consider it, though.

The unfortunate thing, as I learned playing this character at level 1, is that they *really* do not come into their own until level 3. Using a dagger with green-flame blade at 14 dex as your primary offense, not great. I'm going to try out putting Returning Weapon infusion on it, and get the homunulus servant, for level 2 - should help tide me over for now. I'm also considering swapping to pick up Shocking Grasp, and deliver that plus ranged shot via my homunculus. That 6 total HP and 13 AC makes me think it wouldn't last long doing that, however.

[ftafp]

Something I am toying around with now that adventurer's league has expanded what's allowed; a bugbear artificer (armorer), as a combat harasser/tank. The Guardian armor gets to punch things for 1d8 thunder damage (attack/damage based on Int), and apply disadvantage if their target attacks anyone other than them. With bugbear's long arms, this means that I could be slapping people from a distance and leaving the area, forcing them to decide whether to chase me (and contend with some very high AC), or chase my allies. Booming Blade is also an option, though I'd have to get adjacent to use it, so less immediately viable.

Also an option : Touch spells like Shocking Grasp, cast from 10 feet away.

What I'm looking for is any thoughts that you guys might have on other tricks that would work with this. I'm thinking about using Expeditious Retreat to be able to more effectively hit-and-run, turning this into a seriously lanky speedster who darts around the battlefield and distracts the high value targets; at level 9, I would be able to do the same with Haste. Does the hivemind have ideas for other tricks the armorer can use, that would be enhanced by, or be particularly on-brand for, a bugbear? Or general stuff that would help in being a truly discouraging force on the battlefield?

::Edit:: For clarity, I'm looking for things that would benefit :
- Using long arms for hit-and-run attacks
- Ambushes to get that +2d6 surprise attack
- Anything that plays into the sneaky/cunning stereotype of a bugbear

The main advantage you're going to get out of bugbear's reach is the ability to avoid opportunity attacks. This won't work with the sword cost cantrips (nor will Dual Wielder if you pick that up early), so I recommend you not use those (Armorer is better off getting more attacks in anyway), and the same goes for shocking grasps as you don't need to worry about reactions

At levels 1 and 2, Magic Stone should be your go-to cantrip as it does the best damage until you become an armorer. It's also fitting if you're refluffing your bugbear as a monke, or my personal favorite, bigfoot. When you reach level 5 you can swap that out with

With regards to your infusions, I heavily suggest you take Spellwrought tattoos. if your're playing AL, know that technically you can take the same Replicatate Magic Item infusion multiple times, so you can give yourself two tattoos. If you choose Bless, you can take Dual Weilder early without having to worry about your punches missing (it's also nice for the whole party). You might want to give that to an ally though, since as a tank you're going to be the one taking hits. Also, bear in mind that with spellwrought tattoos, the tattoo doesn't disappear until the spell you cast with it ends, so having a tattoo of Gift Alacrity means you can affect the whole party, not just one creature

[Quietus]

The main advantage you're going to get out of bugbear's reach is the ability to avoid opportunity attacks. This won't work with the sword cost cantrips (nor will Dual Wielder if you pick that up early), so I recommend you not use those (Armorer is better off getting more attacks in anyway), and the same goes for shocking grasps as you don't need to worry about reactions

At levels 1 and 2, Magic Stone should be your go-to cantrip as it does the best damage until you become an armorer. It's also fitting if you're refluffing your bugbear as a monke, or my personal favorite, bigfoot. When you reach level 5 you can swap that out with

With regards to your infusions, I heavily suggest you take Spellwrought tattoos. if your're playing AL, know that technically you can take the same Replicatate Magic Item infusion multiple times, so you can give yourself two tattoos. If you choose Bless, you can take Dual Weilder early without having to worry about your punches missing (it's also nice for the whole party). You might want to give that to an ally though, since as a tank you're going to be the one taking hits. Also, bear in mind that with spellwrought tattoos, the tattoo doesn't disappear until the spell you cast with it ends, so having a tattoo of Gift Alacrity means you can affect the whole party, not just one creature

I know, the bladetrips aren't ideal. Unfortunately for this game, I was needed as a front liner, so I had to pick up things that would help in melee. I'm now considering Shocking Grasp, because since the range is "touch", and my reach is +5 feet, I can use that in melee - but realistically, I only have one more level before I achieve my Armorer status. Level 2 is not exactly hardcore mode. As far as magic stone goes, I've liked that so far, and will keep that for a bit.

Tattoos - holy hell I never realized what these would work in that way, but technically this is correct. Yikes. I might have to look at long term buffs, gift of alacrity is a really good one. For now I'm planning on the Returning Weapon infusion on my go-to dagger, for the next level, but I might be willing to compromise for the right spell.

[ftafp]

I know, the bladetrips aren't ideal. Unfortunately for this game, I was needed as a front liner, so I had to pick up things that would help in melee. I'm now considering Shocking Grasp, because since the range is "touch", and my reach is +5 feet, I can use that in melee - but realistically, I only have one more level before I achieve my Armorer status. Level 2 is not exactly hardcore mode. As far as magic stone goes, I've liked that so far, and will keep that for a bit.

Tattoos - holy hell I never realized what these would work in that way, but technically this is correct. Yikes. I might have to look at long term buffs, gift of alacrity is a really good one. For now I'm planning on the Returning Weapon infusion on my go-to dagger, for the next level, but I might be willing to compromise for the right spell.

most people don't realize they work that way either. Frankly, It might be better that this fact is kept under wraps. if WotC releases errata removing tattoos from artificer's list they're going to go back to being the worst half-casters

[stoutstien]

most people don't realize they work that way either. Frankly, It might be better that this fact is kept under wraps. if WotC releases errata removing tattoos from artificer's list they're going to go back to being the worst half-casters

Even barring SWT cheese the artificer is hardly the worse halfcaster in any capacity.

[ftafp]

Even barring SWT cheese the artificer is hardly the worse halfcaster in any capacity.

it really is honestly. players fixate on ranger as being a hunter's mark bot, but the rest of the spell list has some of the strongest low-level spells in the game. pass without trace, aid, conjure animals and woodland beings. rangers suck not because they're bad, but because people use them wrong

paladin suffers a similar fate. again, players focus on smiting and forget the strongest features. the base paladin's aura makes it nearly impossible for themselves and nearby allies to fail saves, and spells like bless and aid and features like their subclass aura only stack with that

in contrast, artificer struggles. a cross between the ranger's exceptional spell list and the paladin's fantastic support, artificer has aspects of both but is weaker than either. its infusion list, while expanded with the addition of tattoos, gets nearly nothing of value until level 10 besides +1 items, something most dms provide, and by that point the objects they gain from adventuring often far outstrip what they can make. this makes their extra attunement slots depend on what the dm gives them. their flash of genius is a useful feature, but its uses are limited and require a reaction while the paladin's aura does the same thing passively and is always on.

but people want damage so lets talk damage. other half casters use weapons in battle. paladins specialize in heavy weapons that supement damage with GWM and PAM and can use bless to offset the attack penalty. Rangers get the archery fighting style, SS and CBE. this means the consistent, heavy single-target damage output of a martial in addition to their other abilities. artificer in contrast is split. alchemist and artillerist are cantrip warriors, and while cantrips scale and they get damage boosts, their output will never match what the ranger and paladin can do. battlesmith and armorer can use weapons, but without fighting styles they rely on +1 weapons to overcome the power attack penalty, something that paladins and rangers will likely have access to anyway. in addition, their subclass features hamper them, and are often better off not used. the battlesmith cant use its defender and PAM/CBE in the same turn, but the latter is superior. the armorer's most exploitable feature the thunder gauntlets cant be used with GWM, while the lightning launcher does nothing another ranged weapon couldn't, forcing a tradeoff better dealing competative damage or using your tanky class features

all of this pales in comparison to the fact that the rules as written do not allow for an artificer gameplay experience focused on crafting, meaning your artificer often doesn't even feel like an artificer. it feels like a watered down wizard with a few lazy bits of flavor that won't enter into your game without homebrew to make the screwed up crafting system usable

artificer is not a bad class, but it is nowhere near the other half-casters

[Wizard_Lizard]

I had a bugbear artificer that only lasted till level 1 'fore the campaign fell apart, but I was planning to go Battlesmith, o' course this was before armourer, so idk.

[stoutstien]

it really is honestly. players fixate on ranger as being a hunter's mark bot, but the rest of the spell list has some of the strongest low-level spells in the game. pass without trace, aid, conjure animals and woodland beings. rangers suck not because they're bad, but because people use them wrong

paladin suffers a similar fate. again, players focus on smiting and forget the strongest features. the base paladin's aura makes it nearly impossible for themselves and nearby allies to fail saves, and spells like bless and aid and features like their subclass aura only stack with that

in contrast, artificer struggles. a cross between the ranger's exceptional spell list and the paladin's fantastic support, artificer has aspects of both but is weaker than either. its infusion list, while expanded with the addition of tattoos, gets nearly nothing of value until level 10 besides +1 items, something most dms provide, and by that point the objects they gain from adventuring often far outstrip what they can make. this makes their extra attunement slots depend on what the dm gives them. their flash of genius is a useful feature, but its uses are limited and require a reaction while the paladin's aura does the same thing passively and is always on.

but people want damage so lets talk damage. other half casters use weapons in battle. paladins specialize in heavy weapons that supement damage with GWM and PAM and can use bless to offset the attack penalty. Rangers get the archery fighting style, SS and CBE. this means the consistent, heavy single-target damage output of a martial in addition to their other abilities. artificer in contrast is split. alchemist and artillerist are cantrip warriors, and while cantrips scale and they get damage boosts, their output will never match what the ranger and paladin can do. battlesmith and armorer can use weapons, but without fighting styles they rely on +1 weapons to overcome the power attack penalty, something that paladins and rangers will likely have access to anyway. in addition, their subclass features hamper them, and are often better off not used. the battlesmith cant use its defender and PAM/CBE in the same turn, but the latter is superior. the armorer's most exploitable feature the thunder gauntlets cant be used with GWM, while the lightning launcher does nothing another ranged weapon couldn't, forcing a tradeoff better dealing competative damage or using your tanky class features

all of this pales in comparison to the fact that the rules as written do not allow for an artificer gameplay experience focused on crafting, meaning your artificer often doesn't even feel like an artificer. it feels like a watered down wizard with a few lazy bits of flavor that won't enter into your game without homebrew to make the screwed up crafting system usable

artificer is not a bad class, but it is nowhere near the other half-casters

Eh. Even with the perfect paladin that somehow has two damage enhancing feats while simultaneously maxing their attack stats and having a high enough charisma so their aura of protection is worth anything a battle smith can still deal enough single target damage to remain relevant with less feat costs and better positioning. The difference is only apparent in fights that last more than 2 rounds but less than 4 while the pally can fuel smites and still the gap is less than a bonus actions worth in any given encounter.

If AOE damage is your thing the artillerist is dropping 7d8 fire/radiant ,dex save for half, in a decent size area with a first level slot during the first round at 9th lv. They can do this more times a day than a wizard can cast fireball at this point with the added benefit of being able to break it up into 2 target areas or even save the cannon a few turns and spike at another time if needed. That's very effective AOE damage potential with zero opportunity cost other than a EC pick.

So I don't think any damage gaps are large enough, if they exists at all, are worth factoring in while comparing the three halfcasters.

So let's look at the spell list im terms of utility and non-damaging potential. the paladin being a prepared caster with a decent mix of buffing and support it's probably doing just fine here with the only real issue are spell slots pulling double duty with DS. The ranger being a memorize caster, for some reason, suffers with both spell known and lack of flexibility to adjust to the unknown. Tasha's variant helps a little bit with primal awareness with 5 extra spells known and extra casting without burning slots. As you noted they do have some very solid options like PWT and some minion abilities later on so they tend to do ok if they want to be low wis and still use spells effectively.

The artificer has a very underwhelming list at first glance but being both a prepared caster with ritual casting built in allows for more freedom in utilizing them without anything other than time. They are definitely the most Caster feeling of the three.

Infusions. Can be very game dependent on how many and what quality of magical items are handed out throughout the campaign but at no point our infusions ever move to a point of being useless. most of the mid-level options aren't even available from other sources like practically a free spell slot for anybody in the party or automatically passing concentration checks a few times a day. if anything in high magic games the artificial infusions get more powerful because it allows you to dig deeper into the list instead of giving out the obligated boring plus damage/attack options.

There's also some good synergy here like the radiant weapon infusion on a battle Smith with sentinel. It leaves the enemies with no good targets or giving the entire party boots of elvenkind or mantaray cloaks. Maybe even GoN for enhance DV more potential surprise rounds.

The final point i kinda agree with. I've turned artificials into full prepared casters where they choose their spells and the slots assignments at the end of LR using the spell point variant. I removed all V and S components and make them immune to counterspell as well. Goes a long way for making them feel like the master of magical crafting rather than just another caster with a magical screwdriver. Hesitation with trying to add very cut and dry crafting rules because for tables who play to the up most optimal options it becomes a requirement and honestly I've only seen a handful of times where crafting rules actually work well within a table top system. it doesn't help that the magical rarity and costs are all over the place with no real pattern so you'd have to back it all up and start fresh. The good news for artificer is just focusing on potions and scrolls for crafting later on is borderline broken given enough time.


this post is probably a mess because I'm doing it before coffee. In short, the three half casters pretty much fall into the categories of the paladin is probably the easiest of the three to play semi-well / very well with a low floor and a very decently high ceiling. The ranger can have a lower floor but can occasionally break through ceilings or circumvent the building altogether with straight up pillar of play cancelation. The artificer is an enigma when looking at them in isolation but once you plug them into an actual party they become everyone's best friend while doing their own thing. They have the lowest floor and the highest ceiling but tend to spend most of the time floating right in the middle both metaphorically and within the party.

The paladin is Freddie Mercury and the artificer is Brian May. Not sure who the ranger in on this metaphor. Going to find coffee and think on it.

[Quietus]

Extremely well thought out points

Sorry stoutstien, had to trim that, but I love so much about your post. It really does a great job of boiling down what I have been formulating a while, and that is, artificers will continue to be competitive, when optimized to do their particular schtick. One thing I do have to ask, where are you coming up with the 7d8 fire/radiant? I get 3d8 from the flamethrower, but I'm assuming you meant the other 4d8 from something like Thunderwave? Fire/thunder is just as good as fire/radiant, of course, just wondering if you had something else in mind.

In terms of optimization, I would say artificers are generally okay, and in terms of ease of optimization would fall roughly in order...

Artillerist (pick AoE or temp HP/support)
Battlesmith (any standard combat style, with built in pet support)
Armorer
Alchemist (far in the back)

Armorer falls where it does, because as much as I love it, it's got built-in weapons that it has to use to get SAD and to use extra attack, and those weapons are somewhat limited in their application of the power feats. Infiltrator armor can of course use sharpshooter, but it doesn't have a good reliable bonus action attack, and guardian armor really wants to use those thunder gauntlets. And the whole package is debatable if it can apply the Enhanced Weapon infusion to its special built in weapons, until level 9 when they explicitly count as a separate item for the purpose of infusions. I know that's a weird distinction to make, but this is AL, I have to be real picky about rules language.

I do like the point-out that radiant weapon gives an excellent "damned if you do, damned if you don't" bump to things, which is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Most interestingly, Radiant Weapon doesn't require you be hit by a *melee* attack, just an attack. If I have attunement slots at that level, I'll be strongly considering this; I already know that I have access to a cloak of protection, and as a result of AL, will get access to ring of protection at level 5. So there will be very stiff competition, but forcing a target to attack someone else with advantage or chase me, with its prize being attacking an AC somewhere between 22-24, and a con save against blind? That's pretty solid. Maybe a bit too solid, now that I'm thinking about it - depending on the specifics, I might ease off the crazy AC so that I'm actually a little more tempting of a target.

[stoutstien]

Explosive Cannon's detonate option. Gets over looked often because it looks like a horrible idea but if you need a blast now and don't want to spend a higher slot activating the flamethrower as a bonus action and then action detonation, which is also buffed by the first bullet point, is pretty big stack of dice to toss at a few targets. Best part is once you have winged boots targeting is a breeze and cover is mostly a non-issue.
You could toss on a SSI + shatter if you have a familiar or running haste but I don't tend to use perfect prebuff scenarios.

Best bet of you are basting AOEs like this is to save the detonation for clean up. Even when you use your first action to summon a EC the ba flame, ba flame then kaboom isn't bad AOE damage over 2 rounds on the cheap.

[Quietus]

Explosive Cannon's detonate option. Gets over looked often because it looks like a horrible idea but if you need a blast now and don't want to spend a higher slot activating the flamethrower as a bonus action and then action detonation, which is also buffed by the first bullet point, is pretty big stack of dice to toss at a few targets. Best part is once you have winged boots targeting is a breeze and cover is mostly a non-issue.
You could toss on a SSI + shatter if you have a familiar or running haste but I don't tend to use perfect prebuff scenarios.

Best bet of you are basting AOEs like this is to save the detonation for clean up. Even when you use your first action to summon a EC the ba flame, ba flame then kaboom isn't bad AOE damage over 2 rounds on the cheap.

Ah, fair. That's Force, though, not Radiant, which is what threw me off. I understand now! And yeah, I'm a bit leery myself of going the full shoulder-deep "Yeah, so my familiar has an SSI that it activates for free every round, for an extra 3d8 area damage, while I'm doing everything I normally do..." - doesn't even really need a prebuff round, but it just doesn't feel good. I'd only do that when playing with the most extreme optimizers, so I could keep up.

Back on the armorer subclass side of things, I'm realizing that I will have some magic item slot competition. If I want to be sneaky, I was considering getting Skill Expert (+1 dex gets me to 14, stealth expertise, and a skill I haven't decided on), and using either a cloak of elvenkind, or boots of elvenkind, to even out the disadvantage. However, this character now has a cloak of protection, and was looking at infusing boots of flying. I'm now wondering if it's worthwhile to pick up a breastplate when I get the Skill Expert feat, and accept that my AC will be 1 lower (or 2 lower, once full plate was an option) in exchange for being more likely to be able to land the Surprise Attack 2d6 damage. Alternatively, just have a separate infusion layout and a second suit of armor, and primarily aim to get surprise attack when I have to go "rogue mode" with infiltrator armor.

[stoutstien]

Ah, fair. That's Force, though, not Radiant, which is what threw me off. I understand now! And yeah, I'm a bit leery myself of going the full shoulder-deep "Yeah, so my familiar has an SSI that it activates for free every round, for an extra 3d8 area damage, while I'm doing everything I normally do..." - doesn't even really need a prebuff round, but it just doesn't feel good. I'd only do that when playing with the most extreme optimizers, so I could keep up.

Back on the armorer subclass side of things, I'm realizing that I will have some magic item slot competition. If I want to be sneaky, I was considering getting Skill Expert (+1 dex gets me to 14, stealth expertise, and a skill I haven't decided on), and using either a cloak of elvenkind, or boots of elvenkind, to even out the disadvantage. However, this character now has a cloak of protection, and was looking at infusing boots of flying. I'm now wondering if it's worthwhile to pick up a breastplate when I get the Skill Expert feat, and accept that my AC will be 1 lower (or 2 lower, once full plate was an option) in exchange for being more likely to be able to land the Surprise Attack 2d6 damage. Alternatively, just have a separate infusion layout and a second suit of armor, and primarily aim to get surprise attack when I have to go "rogue mode" with infiltrator armor.

Ope. Yep force not radiant.

Infusion armor choice combos are probably the best part of the armorer kit. You could grab medium armor master as well. Even with 14 dex you can be rocking splint level AC with no disadvantage on stealth or advantage with infiltrator.

[Quietus]

Ope. Yep force not radiant.

Infusion armor choice combos are probably the best part of the armorer kit. You could grab medium armor master as well. Even with 14 dex you can be rocking splint level AC with no disadvantage on stealth or advantage with infiltrator.

True enough! I could in theory get 16 dex and medium armor master, and rock plate level AC with no disadvantage. Significantly more investment, but this is AL, so I could at least rebuild from 14/16 dex/con, into 16/14 dex/con pretty easily when I take MAM. Definitely worth considering, if not now, at higher levels when I can afford the feat cost.

The real question is, does it make more sense to take MAM at 12 instead of skill expert, get advantage (or at least neutral) stealth rolls, or get expertise to raise the floor when making checks at disadvantage? I guess by that point I'll have had plenty of time with splint armor to get a feel for the real-game cost/feel.

[stoutstien]

True enough! I could in theory get 16 dex and medium armor master, and rock plate level AC with no disadvantage. Significantly more investment, but this is AL, so I could at least rebuild from 14/16 dex/con, into 16/14 dex/con pretty easily when I take MAM. Definitely worth considering, if not now, at higher levels when I can afford the feat cost.

The real question is, does it make more sense to take MAM at 12 instead of skill expert, get advantage (or at least neutral) stealth rolls, or get expertise to raise the floor when making checks at disadvantage? I guess by that point I'll have had plenty of time with splint armor to get a feel for the real-game cost/feel.

Tough call. No idea how magical items work in AL anymore so can't really make a call.

[Quietus]

Tough call. No idea how magical items work in AL anymore so can't really make a call.

Well to start with, I won't be able to infuse magical armor at all. The strict RAW reading of the level 9 armorer ability, states that each portion of the armor can be infused separately. However, it doesn't change the fact that the armor is magical and therefore can't receive infusions. The AL rules for magic items are both really generous in some ways (free access to several basic magic items such as +1 weapons/shields, and some magic rings including ring of protection, starting at level 5) and really limiting (you are allows X magic items total in a given tier). I can go into detail beyond that if needed.

[stoutstien]

Well to start with, I won't be able to infuse magical armor at all. The strict RAW reading of the level 9 armorer ability, states that each portion of the armor can be infused separately. However, it doesn't change the fact that the armor is magical and therefore can't receive infusions. The AL rules for magic items are both really generous in some ways (free access to several basic magic items such as +1 weapons/shields, and some magic rings including ring of protection, starting at level 5) and really limiting (you are allows X magic items total in a given tier). I can go into detail beyond that if needed.

Is mithral or adamantine armor available? The first will make MaM redundant a tad and the latter is amazing for mitigation purposes.

[Quietus]

Is mithral or adamantine armor available? The first will make MaM redundant a tad and the latter is amazing for mitigation purposes.

Both are considered magic armor, and therefore could not receive infusions.

[stoutstien]

Both are considered magic armor, and therefore could not receive infusions.

Aye. No big worries past the whole argument on if the weapons can be infused prior to 9 or not. Even then the big boon of the built in weapons are being int based and already have a good chance to bypass any resistance issues you may face. Having those almost mandatory infusions freed up is super nice.

[Quietus]

Aye. No big worries past the whole argument on if the weapons can be infused prior to 9 or not. Even then the big boon of the built in weapons are being int based and already have a good chance to bypass any resistance issues you may face. Having those almost mandatory infusions freed up is super nice.

Very true. And for extra stupidity, while I cannot use Enhanced Weapon on my Armorer weapons until level 9, because the very specific wording they used in the Artificer rules specifically would not allow it, AL does give me the ability to have a +1 weapon tied to my background. Which is real easy to do, as an outlander, as long as we fight a magical creature before then I can just say "I used bits from that thing to build a better thunderpunch". RAW arguments are silly.

[Quietus]

Well. I've just realized, my idea of using Hunter's Mark to keep damage up, will not work. The goal of long limbed thunderpunches is to spread the hits around and disadvantage as many targets as I can; this doesn't synergize with Hunter's Mark. Anyone have ideas on how to ensure my hits do better than just the base 1d8+int?

[stoutstien]

Well. I've just realized, my idea of using Hunter's Mark to keep damage up, will not work. The goal of long limbed thunderpunches is to spread the hits around and disadvantage as many targets as I can; this doesn't synergize with Hunter's Mark. Anyone have ideas on how to ensure my hits do better than just the base 1d8+int?

I really wouldn't worry about it. Even in the perfect scenarios with haste up and having the TWF feat you are probably better off dropping an aoe control spell if you are trying to manage more than 3 targets at once.
Guardian is more about setting up your allies by reduction of risk via disadvantage than pumping out big numbers yourself and 1d8+mod is average.

There are a few ways where by increasing the number of attacks you make you can do some pretty decent damage with the guardian armor but it takes some multi-classing with ether fighter or ranger. For example a gloom stalker ranger armorer bugbear is the definition of a shock trooper or an echo knight armorer can be using mirrors to constantly have more of a presence. Maybe even a rune knight for extra control, damage, and utility. They all work but 3 levels is a large detour just for damage.

Genie lock is a cheap option with +prof damage once a turn. Turns out better than the duelist FS for anyone with only attack (2). The extra massive storage area with no weight limit is a plus along the usual warlock goodies. just be careful about remembering not to have a bag of holding on when you enter your vessel.

[Quietus]

I really wouldn't worry about it. Even in the perfect scenarios with haste up and having the TWF feat you are probably better off dropping an aoe control spell if you are trying to manage more than 3 targets at once.
Guardian is more about setting up your allies by reduction of risk via disadvantage than pumping out big numbers yourself and 1d8+mod is average.

There are a few ways where by increasing the number of attacks you make you can do some pretty decent damage with the guardian armor but it takes some multi-classing with ether fighter or ranger. For example a gloom stalker ranger armorer bugbear is the definition of a shock trooper or an echo knight armorer can be using mirrors to constantly have more of a presence. Maybe even a rune knight for extra control, damage, and utility. They all work but 3 levels is a large detour just for damage.

Genie lock is a cheap option with +prof damage once a turn. Turns out better than the duelist FS for anyone with only attack (2). The extra massive storage area with no weight limit is a plus along the usual warlock goodies. just be careful about remembering not to have a bag of holding on when you enter your vessel.

That's an excellent point - I was thinking in terms of protecting the team by hitting unengaged enemies and then being far enough away that they couldn't hit me, and had disadvantage vs. everyone else. I need to be thinking about this differently; if there are more enemies than I can realistically punch, that's what Web is for. I should be using thunderpunches on targets engaged with the team's big hitters who have good opportunity attacks. Through that lens, Hunter's Mark still has a place, in those fights where there's only one or two targets and damage becomes more of a consideration.

I may end up considering multiclassing at some point, but I definitely want to rush artificer 5, and probably artificer 10 for the infusion bumps at 9 and 10. Something to think about; gloom stalker would be real good, but requires dex and wis, and right now I'm all in on con and int.

[Quietus]

Friend of mine put forward an idea - building in grappling to this. If I were to drop the Fey Touched feat, I could instead take Skill Expert. Get that +1 int, for my +4 at level 4, and get proficiency/expertise in Athletics. I've only got a 10 str, but that'd give me +4, and I can use the armor of magical strength to have +8 6 times per day - that isn't bad, and I could use that to shove, or to reposition opponents who have gotten too close to my allies, with the advantage of using my long arms to avoid melee repercussions. I'd retire the armor of magical strength at level 10, when I'd make myself some gauntlets of ogre strength, and apply an Enhanced Defense infusion to my armor instead, for +2 AC.

This means I don't get Misty Step or Hunter's Mark, and is really doubling down on the control aspects. However, starting at level 5, I could also Enlarge myself for advantage on those strength checks, on top of the (at that point) possible +10 to athletics. Enlarge could also be used to bring some damage, and as of level 11, could be stored in an SSI and triggered by my homunculus servant, so it would only cost a bonus action. That's real tempting.