Heavy Armor - why it absolutely sucks (and suggestions wanted)

[skunk3]

This has probably been covered in the past but I just started a new game and will be playing a melee brute for the first time in ages. It thematically fits my character to wear heavy armor, but the actual numerical consequence of wearing heavy armor is, well, crap. Armor check penalties, reduced movement speed, little to no DEX bonus, and all for what? A few extra points of AC compared to lighter armors? A DEX-based character in light armor is going to have a better armor class than an armored tank? Sure, you could take Heavy Armor Optimization and its greater version, but who is really going to do that? I don't want to be cheesy and do what a lot of people do (opt for a mithral breastplate) but going for full plate seems like a straight-up inferior option. I feel as though heavy armors should have a higher AC bonus in general. Also, look at the stats for half plate vs. full plate. How does any of that make sense? Full plate has +1 better AC and gets a +1 to maximum DEX bonus yet half plate gets nothing to DEX? Half plate also has a higher armor check penalty and higher arcane spell failure chance than full plate.

Also, my character is large size. I know that large armors are double cost... if I want to get an armor made out of a special material, does that special material cost get doubled as well? (In other words, would a set of mithral full plate cost 21,000 GP?)

Enough of me grumbling. Are there any specific magical armors I should look into? I'm aware of some of the more well-known armors like the Mechanus plate and whatnot, but I don't dig the steampunkiness of it.

[Troacctid]

You might enjoy the skin of ectoplasmic armor, originally printed in Complete Psionic and then reprinted in Magic Item Compendium. It's effectively full plate, but as light armor.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, if you want to take things to the extreme without going all machine-armor with mechanus gear then you could go with dwarven mountain plate (RoS). Same +10 but it's just from having that much metal stacked on between you and the enemy. It's strictly inferior to the mechanus gear beyond the +10 though; slows you down more, makes it impossible to even take the run action, and weighs notably more.

For material, I'd give serious consideration to riverine (Sto) when you can reasonably afford it. It drops your armor bonus back to +5 but then gives you a +5 deflection bonus for half the cost of a +5 ring of protection. Since it -is- a +10 you can probably get away with not enhancing it a lot longer than most other armors so you don't have to worry so much about waiting -so- long into your career before getting a good special material.

You can even go completely bat-crap and have it made of alchemically treated platinum (MoF) and have it weigh 450 lbs. This is a terrible idea but it might actually make you outright impossible for smaller foes to move since you'll weigh more than their push/drag weight.

In any case, another near-must for any wearer of substantial armor is the ghostward enhancement. +1 and you get enhancement bonuses applied to your touch-ac which otherwise sucks.

Speed (MIC) is an enhancement that's very nice on other armors but becomes pretty essential on this behemoth for offsetting the fact it cuts your speed so drastically.

At a pricey +3 you can also negate the movement penalties altogether with the halfweight enhancement (Und). It makes the armor count as light, period, but it won't do anything for the armor check penalties.

Speed and ghostward can go on a shield too, if you go that way.

You poo-pooed heavy armor optimization but if you take it, you open up the deflective armor psionic feat. It gives you the ability to apply your -whole- armor bonus to touch AC as long as you're psionically focused. I can't think of -anything- else that nets you a +10 or more to touch-ac at all. Just no-sell rays and wizardly pokings altogether. If you add the shield ward feat, you get your shield bonus too. Both feats negate the need for ghostward and get you to the point that your AC is the same regardless of whether you're flat-footed, they're aiming for touch, both, or neither. Don't bother with the riverine if you go this way.

I'll grant you the previous paragraph is 4 feats in addition to the exotic armor proficiency for mountain plate but if you're looking at a fighter it's pretty solid for the whole tank motif.

GM: Does a...
You: Nope.
GM: ...25 hit...
You: *smug grin*
GM: against touch?
You: I didn't stutter.

Anywho, hope that helps you get started at least.

[skunk3]

You might enjoy the skin of ectoplasmic armor, originally printed in Complete Psionic and then reprinted in Magic Item Compendium. It's effectively full plate, but as light armor.

I thought about that but I don't think that skins can be further enhanced with armor enhancements like Fortification, etc.

[Crake]

Sectioned plate is also pretty great in that it has a base -5 ACP, but is otherwise the same stats as fullplate. Now, it is also always considered masterwork, but given that it's considered masterwork, but doesn't actually have the masterwork's reduction to ACP, you can use mithril to reduce that ACP to -2, and nimble to reduce it to 0. Additionally, you can use mithril, twilight, githcraft, feycraft, and a thistledown suit to reduce it's ASF to 0, though the thistledown suit will add +1 to the ACP. If your DM allows pathfinder material though, that +1 ACP can be offset by the comfort armor ability, which also lets you sleep in the armor as if it were light.

So for 3000gp (base) +9000gp (mithril) +500gp (feycraft) + 600gp (githcraft) +250gp (thistledown suit) +9000gp (+1, +1 nimble, +1 twilight), +5000gp (comfort) = 27,350gp you can have an armor that gives you +9 to AC, has +4 max dex, 0ACP, 0ASF, allows you to sleep in it, and weighs 27lb. Not bad, considering you can wear it without any proficiency and you wouldn't actually recieve any penalties at all. If the movement speed reduction does really bug you, you COULD add halfweight to it, that would bring the cost up to 52,350, and also reduce the wieght of the armor down to 13.5lb, though at that point it's almost worth to just get bracers of armor, especially if your dex is relatively good, unless you're throwing on magic vestment to bump up the armor bonus.

[skunk3]

Well, if you want to take things to the extreme without going all machine-armor with mechanus gear then you could go with dwarven mountain plate (RoS). Same +10 but it's just from having that much metal stacked on between you and the enemy. It's strictly inferior to the mechanus gear beyond the +10 though; slows you down more, makes it impossible to even take the run action, and weighs notably more.

For material, I'd give serious consideration to riverine (Sto) when you can reasonably afford it. It drops your armor bonus back to +5 but then gives you a +5 deflection bonus for half the cost of a +5 ring of protection. Since it -is- a +10 you can probably get away with not enhancing it a lot longer than most other armors so you don't have to worry so much about waiting -so- long into your career before getting a good special material.

You can even go completely bat-crap and have it made of alchemically treated platinum (MoF) and have it weigh 450 lbs. This is a terrible idea but it might actually make you outright impossible for smaller foes to move since you'll weigh more than their push/drag weight.

In any case, another near-must for any wearer of substantial armor is the ghostward enhancement. +1 and you get enhancement bonuses applied to your touch-ac which otherwise sucks.

Speed (MIC) is an enhancement that's very nice on other armors but becomes pretty essential on this behemoth for offsetting the fact it cuts your speed so drastically.

At a pricey +3 you can also negate the movement penalties altogether with the halfweight enhancement (Und). It makes the armor count as light, period, but it won't do anything for the armor check penalties.

Speed and ghostward can go on a shield too, if you go that way.

You poo-pooed heavy armor optimization but if you take it, you open up the deflective armor psionic feat. It gives you the ability to apply your -whole- armor bonus to touch AC as long as you're psionically focused. I can't think of -anything- else that nets you a +10 or more to touch-ac at all. Just no-sell rays and wizardly pokings altogether. If you add the shield ward feat, you get your shield bonus too. Both feats negate the need for ghostward and get you to the point that your AC is the same regardless of whether you're flat-footed, they're aiming for touch, both, or neither. Don't bother with the riverine if you go this way.

I'll grant you the previous paragraph is 4 feats in addition to the exotic armor proficiency for mountain plate but if you're looking at a fighter it's pretty solid for the whole tank motif.

GM: Does a...
You: Nope.
GM: ...25 hit...
You: *smug grin*
GM: against touch?
You: I didn't stutter.

Anywho, hope that helps you get started at least.

Riverine is cool, but: "Riverine is sometimes also used to create walls and even containers. Being enclosed in magical force, it is immune to all damage and is unaffected by most spells. However, disintegrate immediately destroys an item made of riverine, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a Mordenkainen's disjunction spell, causing the water to spill out in a sudden rush. "

Being a 'tank' character, I can easily see disintegrate, sphere of annihilation, and/or disjunction being lobbed at me at some point. When I get enough GP to afford a good weapon, I could of course add the Spellblade property to it to give me immunity to a spell, but just one. (As far as I know.)

[skunk3]

Sectioned plate is also pretty great in that it has a base -5 ACP, but is otherwise the same stats as fullplate. Now, it is also always considered masterwork, but given that it's considered masterwork, but doesn't actually have the masterwork's reduction to ACP, you can use mithril to reduce that ACP to -2, and nimble to reduce it to 0. Additionally, you can use mithril, twilight, githcraft, feycraft, and a thistledown suit to reduce it's ASF to 0, though the thistledown suit will add +1 to the ACP. If your DM allows pathfinder material though, that +1 ACP can be offset by the comfort armor ability, which also lets you sleep in the armor as if it were light.

So for 3000gp (base) +9000gp (mithril) +500gp (feycraft) + 600gp (githcraft) +250gp (thistledown suit) +9000gp (+1, +1 nimble, +1 twilight), +5000gp (comfort) = 27,350gp you can have an armor that gives you +9 to AC, has +4 max dex, 0ACP, 0ASF, allows you to sleep in it, and weighs 27lb. Not bad, considering you can wear it without any proficiency and you wouldn't actually recieve any penalties at all. If the movement speed reduction does really bug you, you COULD add halfweight to it, that would bring the cost up to 52,350, and also reduce the wieght of the armor down to 13.5lb, though at that point it's almost worth to just get bracers of armor, especially if your dex is relatively good, unless you're throwing on magic vestment to bump up the armor bonus.

I like this. Haven't heard of sectioned plate armor before. However, adding the feycraft and githcraft templates is highly cheesy and probably impossible in most games. I also won't be using any arcane spells whatsoever, so ASF doesn't matter to me at all. Mithral sectioned full plate with Soulfire, Medium Fortification, and Nimbleness seems pretty sweet though. (Ghost Ward would only be worth it if maybe the game went into epic levels.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Riverine is cool, but: "Riverine is sometimes also used to create walls and even containers. Being enclosed in magical force, it is immune to all damage and is unaffected by most spells. However, disintegrate immediately destroys an item made of riverine, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a Mordenkainen's disjunction spell, causing the water to spill out in a sudden rush. "

Being a 'tank' character, I can easily see disintegrate, sphere of annihilation, and/or disjunction being lobbed at me at some point. When I get enough GP to afford a good weapon, I could of course add the Spellblade property to it to give me immunity to a spell, but just one. (As far as I know.)

An artifact, a 9th level spell, and an 11k expendable item don't seem like things to be particularly worried about. The last is just a 6th level spell though, so that concern seems valid enough.

Even then, as long as he doesn't catch you by surprise, your armor's touch AC isn't trivial. +5 deflection that is inarguably the armor's bonus, your 10 for not being an immobile object, any enhancement you do put on it, and maybe even a shield bonus if you got one with ghost ward or shield ward and aren't flat-footed. Hell, you might even sneak a dex bonus in there with nimbleness. Worst case; it's AC 15. Best case it's your full, normal, quite substantial AC -5. Same goes for the rod. In the latter case, a wizard's ranged attack roll is -not- gonna hit. Maybe an archery cleric with the destruction domain a couple levels down the road but even that's not great odds of getting a hit.

Basically, as long as you're not trying to clear out the clockwork horrors, you ought to be okay for the most part. Maybe even then at the high end. If you're worried about it still but don't want to give up on riverine just yet, getting mettle somewhere negates any disintegration you actually save on.

If you're particularly worried about such expensive armor being targetted though, perhaps living metal (MoF) or even aurorum (BoED) would be better for you? The former heals over time as long as it's not outright destroyed, along with a +1 adjustment to max dex and ACP, while the latter can be reassembled if it is destroyed, although that might not work with outright disintegration. Mithral still does a pretty solid job for reducing the penalties associated with heavy armor, although in the case of mountain plate it doesn't affect the movement penalties or even reduce the armor weight category.

The ultimate in item protection has a pretty substantial cost but is pretty well guaranteed; make it a legacy. Nothing short of artifact level getting rid of it is permanent, not even disintegration. That's gonna cost you some xp and a few penalties over at least 5 levels.

[RNightstalker]

I thought about that but I don't think that skins can be further enhanced with armor enhancements like Fortification, etc.

Talk to the DM about the optional rules from A&EG about Bracers of Armor and enchanting them with the fortification and other abilities you desire.

[Anthrowhale]

Another option for heavy armor is Thaalud Stone from the Anauroch adventure. Reinforced Segmented (Dragon#358) Thaalud Stone Plate+5 has a +18 armor bonus and a +1 maximum dexterity bonus. That's the highest achievable armor bonus that I'm aware of.

[Darg]

Using armors in the PHB

Best light: chain shirt +4/4 or padded armor +1/8

Best heavy: full plate +8/1

You get full armor bonus when you would normally lose Dex to AC. To match the total of full plate one needs 26+ Dex. This means that one is free to focus on other stats.

For the price of bracers +8 you can get a +8 bonus to your full plate or +5 to both your armor and shield with gold left over to buy defending armor spikes.

Also, as was mentioned you can get armor and shield bonuses to touch ac with a little investment.

[skunk3]

Question:
Armor for large sized characters costs double.
If the armor is made out of a special material, is that special materials cost doubled as well, or is it just tacked on as a flat surcharge at the end?
For example, a medium-sized set of mithral full plate would cost 10,500 GP. 1,500 for the normal full plate cost and an extra 9,000 for it being made of mithral.
So for a large set of mithral full plate would it be:
(1,500 GP x 2) + 9,000 GP = 12,000 GP
-or-
(1,500 GP + 9,000 GP) x 2 = 21,000 GP
Clearly, that's a pretty massive difference in cost. A set of mithral full plate for a tiny-sized character would offer the exact same benefit as a set of full plate for a large-sized character, but instead of being multiplied by two, it would be divided by two:
(1,500 GP / 2 ) + 9,000 GP = 9,750 GP
-or-
(1,500 GP + 9,000 GP) / 2 = 5,250 GP
In the example for large-sized armor, the first formula ended up being less expensive than the second. In the example for the tiny-sized armor, the first formula ended up being *more* expensive than the second. Either way, the large-sized armor still ends up being *at least* 2,250 GP more expensive than that for tiny-sized armor.
Personally, I feel as though the first formula is the correct one. Thoughts? Obviously, I know that it takes more mithral to make a set of large mithral plate armor than to make a set of tiny plate armor, but both offer the exact same benefit. D&D isn't really a game of economics though. Furthermore, tiny-sized creatures get a +4 to attack and AC from their size. Large creatures take an AC penalty, but get 10 ft. reach. (there's other modifiers based upon size as well)
I feel as though the second formula unfairly punishes large+ sized characters.

[Darg]

I've always seen it as doubling the whole thing. You need more work done to make it and more materials. Your average adventurer is going to be medium sized. Being naturally large sized has benefits and naturally many negatives, most of which happens to be fitting into places or things.

[skunk3]

I don't understand why it would follow formula #2 though because:

A) Large-sized armors don't confer any additional benefit over a smaller armor of the same type
B) Size modifiers for characters are reasonably balanced overall (IMO)
C) Larger weapons deal greater damage and smaller weapons deal lesser damage
D) No matter what formula is used, large sized characters still end up paying more regardless - it's just a matter of how much more
E) I don't think it would be game-breaking or unfair in any way for formula #1 to be followed since granted AC bonus remains the same regardless of armor size
F) It seems punitive for no good reason

Obviously it makes some sense that a larger armor would require more of that special material, but the added special materials cost isn't broken down per armor type - it's just a flat +GP cost based upon size of armor. I'd think that it would take more mithral to make a set of full plate than it would to make half plate or banded, wouldn't it? However, the special cost modifier is the same for all three.

The only way I could see formula #2 as being correct is if armors gave more or less AC bonus depending on size... but they don't.

[Zaile]

3e over-valued heavy armor vs light the same way it over-valued full BAB vs casting. Too expensive and too high of penalties for too little reward, especially once magic hits.

Medium and heavy armors made of Adamantine that provide DR (however tiny) are the best examples of what the tradeoff between heavy and light should be. Heavy armor provides DR based on the hardness of the material, like maybe 25% of it, or some level-based scaling like barbarian.

[Zanos]

If you think heavy armor is bad, you should take a look at medium armor. Which at most adds +1 to your AC(breastplate vs chainshirt) but has the same movement speed penalty as heavy armor.
Heavy armor is at least somewhere between +4(plate vs chain) and +8(thaluaad stone vs chain) to your AC over light armor for the same drop in movement speed, which is probably the most important thing. Dropping from 30ft to 20ft for up to +8 to your armor class is pretty competitive.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Best armor for your gold-piece is a solved equation anyway; chain-shirt with dastana and mithral* chahar-aina. +6 worth of light armor with a +4 max dex that gives you -three- slots for armor special abilities, allowing you to go much further in the long-term and much cheaper in the short. All at a fairly reasonable cost that's comparable to a mithral breastplate, generally considered the best armor without any rules oddities.

*mithral or any other material that reduces armor weight category by one step and can be applied to mostly metal armors.

Heavy armor has two values; aesthetic, hard to do the knight in shining armor schtick with the shining armor, and reaching the highest possible armor class, in every category if you're willing to invest for it.

[Darg]

I don't understand why it would follow formula #2 though because:

A) Large-sized armors don't confer any additional benefit over a smaller armor of the same type
B) Size modifiers for characters are reasonably balanced overall (IMO)
C) Larger weapons deal greater damage and smaller weapons deal lesser damage
D) No matter what formula is used, large sized characters still end up paying more regardless - it's just a matter of how much more
E) I don't think it would be game-breaking or unfair in any way for formula #1 to be followed since granted AC bonus remains the same regardless of armor size
F) It seems punitive for no good reason

Obviously it makes some sense that a larger armor would require more of that special material, but the added special materials cost isn't broken down per armor type - it's just a flat +GP cost based upon size of armor. I'd think that it would take more mithral to make a set of full plate than it would to make half plate or banded, wouldn't it? However, the special cost modifier is the same for all three.

The only way I could see formula #2 as being correct is if armors gave more or less AC bonus depending on size... but they don't.

They shouldn't have to confer additional benefit. Being large itself is the benefit and it is a large benefit. You get greater damage die, greater reach, bonuses to special attacks, etc. The material cost for a mithril full plate is 10,000 gp. The giant who wants mithril full plate is going to have to provide more mithril than that would fit on a medium sized humanoid. Some parts of the rules don't make sense, but this part of the rules is being reasonable. A medium sized creature is 4-8 ft tall. a large creature is 8-16 ft tall. Personally, I think the doubling rules are generous because the amount of materials needed far exceed simply doubling volume.

If you find it is unfair from a gameplay perspective, talk to the DM about it. If you are the DM, change it. I don't think this is a topic to fall on a blade for.


3e over-valued heavy armor vs light the same way it over-valued full BAB vs casting. Too expensive and too high of penalties for too little reward, especially once magic hits.

Medium and heavy armors made of Adamantine that provide DR (however tiny) are the best examples of what the tradeoff between heavy and light should be. Heavy armor provides DR based on the hardness of the material, like maybe 25% of it, or some level-based scaling like barbarian.

My favorite variant is the UA rules for armor as damage reduction (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm). It standardizes damage reduction stacking (should be core rules anyway and arguably is) and trades half the armor bonus from armor as DR. I think it works well at really diversifying between heavy and light armors. It also makes fighting defensively and combat expertise that much more enticing and valuable.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

An interesting route to the AC tank is Dragonscale Husk alternate class feature. It's got some downsides (mainly that because it's not technically armor, it's hard to fix change its max Dex and skill penalty), but it provides a typeless bonus to AC that'll stack with Bracers of Armor (and precious little else*), gives you some lovely resistance to most energy types, and scales with your level. Arguably, it even applies to touch AC, since it's a typeless bonus, but that's probably not RAI.

*Doesn't stack with racial features, class features, feats, or "other special abilities" that boost AC. Items are still fair game, though, as far as I can tell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

An interesting route to the AC tank is Dragonscale Husk alternate class feature. It's got some downsides (mainly that because it's not technically armor, it's hard to fix change its max Dex and skill penalty), but it provides a typeless bonus to AC that'll stack with Bracers of Armor (and precious little else*), gives you some lovely resistance to most energy types, and scales with your level. Arguably, it even applies to touch AC, since it's a typeless bonus, but that's probably not RAI.

*Doesn't stack with racial features, class features, feats, or "other special abilities" that boost AC. Items are still fair game, though, as far as I can tell.

Long as you don't intend to pick up too many prestige class levels, that can work. Since it's dependent on levels in classes with heavy armor proficiency, it doesn't play well with a -lot- of warrior PrCs or even some warrior base classes like warblade or barbarian. That its an untyped bonus to armor class is a good catch though. It stacks with anything it doesn't explicitly exclude. Oddly, those explicit exclusions include combat expertise, a feat that gives you a bonus to armor class... apparently growing scales makes it impossible to wield your weapon more defensively...

I always assumed it was an armor bonus to armor class. Think I'll houserule it that way; add "armor" to each of its references to "bonus to armor class" so it says "armor bonus to armor class." Makes -way- more sense that way.

[Jay R]

Having worn leather armor, and chain, and half plate, in the SCA, I can reliably report that you are correct -- heavy armor absolutely sucks.

I now wear the minimum armor I can.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, so I've speed read through this (so maybe I missed it) but no one mentioned Tesselated Full Plate from A&EG? Cuz it does basically everything you want. Get it in Mithral and it counts as Light armor and it has a +5 Max Dex, IIRC, and a ACP of like -2.

Plus you can put it on with one action.

The stuff is phenomenal.

[Darg]

Ok, so I've speed read through this (so maybe I missed it) but no one mentioned Tesselated Full Plate from A&EG? Cuz it does basically everything you want. Get it in Mithral and it counts as Light armor and it has a +5 Max Dex, IIRC, and a ACP of like -2.

Plus you can put it on with one action.

The stuff is phenomenal.

It's a specific armor. Making it out of Mithral is up to the DM.

[Blackhawk748]

It's a specific armor. Making it out of Mithral is up to the DM.

It's not like its Unique or anything, he could have it commissioned.

[Asmotherion]

I've always House-ruled that Armor gives it's Hardness score as DR to the wearer.

I mean, it makes sence mechanically, and it's most helpful to classes on the lower end of the Tier-System.

[Zaile]

They shouldn't have to confer additional benefit. Being large itself is the benefit and it is a large benefit. You get greater damage die, greater reach, bonuses to special attacks, etc. The material cost for a mithril full plate is 10,000 gp. The giant who wants mithril full plate is going to have to provide more mithril than that would fit on a medium sized humanoid. Some parts of the rules don't make sense, but this part of the rules is being reasonable. A medium sized creature is 4-8 ft tall. a large creature is 8-16 ft tall. Personally, I think the doubling rules are generous because the amount of materials needed far exceed simply doubling volume.

If you find it is unfair from a gameplay perspective, talk to the DM about it. If you are the DM, change it. I don't think this is a topic to fall on a blade for.



My favorite variant is the UA rules for armor as damage reduction (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm). It standardizes damage reduction stacking (should be core rules anyway and arguably is) and trades half the armor bonus from armor as DR. I think it works well at really diversifying between heavy and light armors. It also makes fighting defensively and combat expertise that much more enticing and valuable.

In all my years of playing 3.5 I have never come across this. I thank you good sir.

[Zaile]

I've always House-ruled that Armor gives it's Hardness score as DR to the wearer.

I mean, it makes sence mechanically, and it's most helpful to classes on the lower end of the Tier-System.

That makes adamantine armor give dr20/adamantine. That's golem DR on a pc. I'd think hardness divided by 4 or 5 would be good.

[Zombimode]

Having worn leather armor, and chain, and half plate, in the SCA, I can reliably report that you are correct -- heavy armor absolutely sucks.

I now wear the minimum armor I can.

You're also not fighting for your life. If that would be the case maybe your perspective would change.

[Crake]

That makes adamantine armor give dr20/adamantine. That's golem DR on a pc. I'd think hardness divided by 4 or 5 would be good.

Technically it's DR20/-. Adamantine only overcomes the hardness of items BELOW 20 hardness, so at exactly 20 hardness, adamantine still doesn't overcome it.

[Jay R]

You're also not fighting for your life. If that would be the case maybe your perspective would change.

True; that might change what armor I wear.

It would not change how much wearing full plate absolutely sucks.

[the_tick_rules]

If you're an elf Champion of Corellon Larethian (or however you spell it) from races of wild has some awesome buffs for heavy armor. It's a dex based fighter so it may not be viable in this case but it's still pretty cool for fighters.

[Jack_Simth]

I've always House-ruled that Armor gives it's Hardness score as DR to the wearer.

I mean, it makes sence mechanically, and it's most helpful to classes on the lower end of the Tier-System.
... maybe tier that? Full hardness as DR for Heavy armors, half for medium, a quarter for light? Because an Adamantine Chain Shirt would market at 5,100 gp, and that probably shouldn't give DR 20....

[Calthropstu]

True; that might change what armor I wear.

It would not change how much wearing full plate absolutely sucks.

I agree. Wearing full plate really does suck. Especially without the padding. And it gets so hot. Just try standing outside in Phoenix, AZ in mid summer wearing full plate.

It would literally kill you. Heat aside, if you don't have enough padding, the spots where the connects form pinch points. Hurts like hell. Sometines even with the padding, it pinches through.

It's also heavy so you get tired fast.

[SirNibbles]

Just try standing outside in Phoenix, AZ in mid summer wearing full plate. It would literally kill you.

__

As for fixing heavy armor, I'd just bump up the Max Dex bonus for all armors.

[skunk3]

__

As for fixing heavy armor, I'd just bump up the Max Dex bonus for all armors.
That doesn't make sense. The AC bonus needs to be higher, not max dex. Most dex heavy characters aren't going to be wearing heavy armor for a variety of reasons.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That doesn't make sense. The AC bonus needs to be higher, not max dex.

Increasing max dex does increase the overall AC by making dexterity actually usable with the heaviest armors rather than becoming a dump stat for anyone that wants heavy armor. It's a net effect rather than a direct one but it's there.

[skunk3]

Increasing max dex does increase the overall AC by making dexterity actually usable with the heaviest armors rather than becoming a dump stat for anyone that wants heavy armor. It's a net effect rather than a direct one but it's there.

Sure, but as I said, most dex heavy characters aren't going to be using heavy armor anyway and by increasing max dex we would just be further cementing dex as the most important stat in the game. The AC bonuses for medium and heavy armors need to be higher to make it worth actually using them, especially at higher levels.

[Zarvistic]

You could make some or all magical effects be more poweful on heavy armor. For example fortification maybe only giving 50% at most if its on medium, but more or less than that if it's on armor considered light or heavy. Or simply make some effects only available on certain armor types.

[Kitsuneymg]

Add scaling AC based on bab and armor category. Light gets none. Medium gets 1/4 bab. Heavy gets 1/3. That puts full plate at 16 by 18th level and breastplate at 11 by 20th. Make the increase count vs touch.

There. Now you have a reason to use heavy armor, but it doesn’t make level 5 impossible for the GM to hit you.

[H_H_F_F]

Add scaling AC based on bab and armor category. Light gets none. Medium gets 1/4 bab. Heavy gets 1/3. That puts full plate at 16 by 18th level and breastplate at 11 by 20th. Make the increase count vs touch.

There. Now you have a reason to use heavy armor, but it doesn’t make level 5 impossible for the GM to hit you.

I like that general idea, though the suspension of disbelief is hard enough without it coubting towards touch. I'd make it regular armor bonus - maybe add a non-psionic feat chain to make it count as touch.

[Khosan]

Add scaling AC based on bab and armor category. Light gets none. Medium gets 1/4 bab. Heavy gets 1/3. That puts full plate at 16 by 18th level and breastplate at 11 by 20th. Make the increase count vs touch.

There. Now you have a reason to use heavy armor, but it doesn’t make level 5 impossible for the GM to hit you.

There's also the Armor as DR as a baseline that kind of works. The concept is solid, even if the numbers assigned on the SRD put you right back into the same situation as the baseline. Seriously, a chain shirt provides as much DR as any medium armor (2/-), which is half as much as full plate. Plus, DR 4/- is basically nothing once you get past level 5 or so.

My quick and dirty napkin homebrew version would be like...10% DR for a chain shirt, gradually scaling up the DR% to a full 50% in full plate. Maybe toss in some minimum/maximum DR so the heavily armored person could wade into a playpen of aggressive toddlers and not feel anything, but if they would've taken 200 damage from someone, they're still going to feel an appreciable chunk of that. You could keep the DR/- for medium/heavy armors about where they are in the original subsystem for the floor, but add a cap such that it cannot prevent more than 10 times that amount, as an example.

Not perfect, but it makes heavy/medium armor valuable in a different way. You're getting hit more often, but for far less.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sure, but as I said, most dex heavy characters aren't going to be using heavy armor anyway

But that's because they basically can't. It eats into their dex to AC so moving up from say a chain-shirt to full plate is a net zero change to AC in exchange for tanking your carry capacity and movement speed. Of course you're not gonna do that. If they were both +4 max dex though, then the extra 4 points for the weight and speed drawback -might- be worth considering.


and by increasing max dex we would just be further cementing dex as the most important stat in the game.

The who now? Dex matters, sure. "The most important stat in the game" though? It's the most important for skillful skirmishers but it's secondary for casters, at best, and tertiary or even a dump stat for a -lot- of warrior builds.

Even if you ignore class considerations, say you're a commoner for some gods forsaken reason, I'd argue that wisdom is more important. Perception skills are more important than stealth skills and will saves are a -lot- more important than reflex. Con is also a solid contender; you -will- be hit sooner or later, no matter how sneaky or evasive you are and fort saves are often vs "you're screwed now," to near the same degree as will. Sans class distinction, I'd put dex ahead of any of str, int, or cha (which I'd probably put in that order, btw) but it's second place at best.

Now in the late game, when you have enough gold and class abilities to make up for gaps... it's still second fiddle to your primary stat unless it -is- your primary stat. Any lack of dex in the early game can be overcome with cash and features just like any other stat. Lack of con? Lots of healing. Lack of dex? Heavy armor. Dumb as a bag of rocks? Skill boosters weigh heavier in the overall bonus than ranks in a CC anyway. Lack of cha? sword :smalltongue:


The AC bonuses for medium and heavy armors need to be higher to make it worth actually using them, especially at higher levels.

It -would- be nice if there was some consistency between cost (monetary and tradeoffs) and overall AC (ac + max dex) from armor but, ironically enough, the cost/ benefit on doing the necessary work just isn't a good ratio. Too many armors and getting to system target AC for your level isn't that hard anyway.

[skunk3]

But that's because they basically can't. It eats into their dex to AC so moving up from say a chain-shirt to full plate is a net zero change to AC in exchange for tanking your carry capacity and movement speed. Of course you're not gonna do that. If they were both +4 max dex though, then the extra 4 points for the weight and speed drawback -might- be worth considering.



The who now? Dex matters, sure. "The most important stat in the game" though? It's the most important for skillful skirmishers but it's secondary for casters, at best, and tertiary or even a dump stat for a -lot- of warrior builds.

Even if you ignore class considerations, say you're a commoner for some gods forsaken reason, I'd argue that wisdom is more important. Perception skills are more important than stealth skills and will saves are a -lot- more important than reflex. Con is also a solid contender; you -will- be hit sooner or later, no matter how sneaky or evasive you are and fort saves are often vs "you're screwed now," to near the same degree as will. Sans class distinction, I'd put dex ahead of any of str, int, or cha (which I'd probably put in that order, btw) but it's second place at best.

Now in the late game, when you have enough gold and class abilities to make up for gaps... it's still second fiddle to your primary stat unless it -is- your primary stat. Any lack of dex in the early game can be overcome with cash and features just like any other stat. Lack of con? Lots of healing. Lack of dex? Heavy armor. Dumb as a bag of rocks? Skill boosters weigh heavier in the overall bonus than ranks in a CC anyway. Lack of cha? sword :smalltongue:



It -would- be nice if there was some consistency between cost (monetary and tradeoffs) and overall AC (ac + max dex) from armor but, ironically enough, the cost/ benefit on doing the necessary work just isn't a good ratio. Too many armors and getting to system target AC for your level isn't that hard anyway.

Overall I would say DEX is the best stat in the game. Obviously there are counter examples to this but in general it's just so useful in SO MANY builds. Basically, unless you're playing a STR based brawler, DEX is hugely beneficial for just about any character. I'd rank the most important stats as such:

DEX
INT
WIS
CON
CHA
STR

Of course that is just my personal opinion but in all my years of playing 3/3.5 that's what I've experienced.

This is also why I say that heavier armors don't really need a big increase in max DEX, although I think that most heavy armors should at least offer 1 max DEX by default. Instead, these medium and heavy armors need to offer a higher general AC bonus because medium armor is basically trash aside from mithral breastplates, aka what every Barbarian wears... and heavy armor with the brutal ACP and ASF in addition to the hit to movement feels punitive in most cases, but of course it completely depends on the game... ESPECIALLY if people argue in favor of special materials costs being doubled for large armor. (Which I disagree with for reasons previously stated.)

[PraxisVetli]

I thought about that but I don't think that skins can be further enhanced with armor enhancements like Fortification, etc.

Why wouldn't you be able to further enchant it just like any other item?
Of course, custom magic item, DM approval, etc, but is there a hard and fast rule somewhere that says you can't?

[skunk3]

Why wouldn't you be able to further enchant it just like any other item?
Of course, custom magic item, DM approval, etc, but is there a hard and fast rule somewhere that says you can't?

I don't know if there is an 'official' rule per se. The only items that I know of that can be enhanced in such a way are armors (including clothing) and bracers of armor.

EDIT: Just looked up the descriptions for psychoactive skins and I do not think they should be able to be enhanced like armor. First of all, you can wear up to three of them at once, which - finances permitting - would allow people to get super cheesy. I also think it's bogus that the skins are only usable by characters medium-sized or smaller. I can see a lot of cheese going on with people wearing three psychoactive skins, armor, bracers of armor, etc.


So large characters not only can't wear psychoactive skins (for no discernible reason), they also have to pay double for armor AND (arguably) double for special materials cost for said armor? (At no additional benefit vs. smaller sizes as well!) Yeah, screw that. Thankfully my gaming group is a sane bunch of guys who are fine with houseruling anything that makes sense.

[PraxisVetli]

I don't know if there is an 'official' rule per se. The only items that I know of that can be enhanced in such a way are armors (including clothing) and bracers of armor.

EDIT: Just looked up the descriptions for psychoactive skins and I do not think they should be able to be enhanced like armor. First of all, you can wear up to three of them at once, which - finances permitting - would allow people to get super cheesy. I also think it's bogus that the skins are only usable by characters medium-sized or smaller. I can see a lot of cheese going on with people wearing three psychoactive skins, armor, bracers of armor, etc.


So large characters not only can't wear psychoactive skins (for no discernible reason), they also have to pay double for armor AND (arguably) double for special materials cost for said armor? (At no additional benefit vs. smaller sizes as well!) Yeah, screw that. Thankfully my gaming group is a sane bunch of guys who are fine with houseruling anything that makes sense.

Yeah that's pretty wild.
The >Medium makes no sense, and wearing 3 would certainly get extreme since you'd keep 2 of them loaded with effects and the third would be bland but high AC. That definitely could get out of hand.

[HouseRules]

Use the Defense Bonus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) Variant Rule, but house rule so that they stack with armor, but at different rates.

3/3 for heavy armor
2/3 for medium armor
1/3 for light armor

[Asmotherion]

That makes adamantine armor give dr20/adamantine. That's golem DR on a pc. I'd think hardness divided by 4 or 5 would be good.

Eh, not nearly broken. For me, it makes sence a Full Plate wearing fighter to not have to worry about physical damage, unless it's from a siege weapon or something.

I mean, it's not like invulnerability. Almost all spells and energy types bypass armor, so it's really just giving a cool bonus ability to the fighter. And, yeah, a Fighter wearing some anti-magic item would be similar to a golem, which, in my estimation, balances the gap between casters and non casters a bit.

[HouseRules]

Eh, not nearly broken. For me, it makes sence a Full Plate wearing fighter to not have to worry about physical damage, unless it's from a siege weapon or something.

I mean, it's not like invulnerability. Almost all spells and energy types bypass armor, so it's really just giving a cool bonus ability to the fighter. And, yeah, a Fighter wearing some anti-magic item would be similar to a golem, which, in my estimation, balances the gap between casters and non casters a bit.

This makes most armor as DR 10/Mithral, since most materials have a hardness of 10.

Edit: more like another material


MaterialHardnessHP
Paper or cloth 0 2/inch of thickness
Rope 0 2/inch of thickness
Glass 1 1/inch of thickness
Ice 0 3/inch of thickness
Leather or hide 2 5/inch of thickness
Wood 5 10/inch of thickness
Stone 8 15/inch of thickness
Iron or steel 10 30/inch of thickness
Mithral 15 30/inch of thickness
Adamantine 20 40/inch of thickness

[Asmotherion]

This makes most armor as DR 10/Adamant, since most materials have a hardness of 10.

Still, Leap attack+Power Attack (a very common combination of feats) deals more than enough damage to damage the wearer, even at low levels.

[Feldar]

True; that might change what armor I wear.

It would not change how much wearing full plate absolutely sucks.

It doesn't really suck until the helmet is on.


This makes most armor as DR 10/Adamant, since most materials have a hardness of 10.

Don't forget that enchanting armor adds +2 hardness per point of magical enhancement. So +5 adamantium would be hardness 20.

[HouseRules]

Still, Leap attack+Power Attack (a very common combination of feats) deals more than enough damage to damage the wearer, even at low levels.

Leap Attack is a level 5 feat. Level 1-4 cannot do sufficient damage is the issue.

Edit: Forgot

that Mithral has a hardness of 15.
+2 per enhancement.

[Zombimode]

Still, Leap attack+Power Attack (a very common combination of feats) deals more than enough damage to damage the wearer, even at low levels.

"Very common" - no printed monster has this. Ok.

[H_H_F_F]

"Very common" - no printed monster has this. Ok.

Leap attack comes from CAdv, which has no monsters in it. Most printed monsters only use core feats and feats from their own books. Leap attack has PA as a prerequisite.

I've played in some EXTREMELY low OP tables in my day, but I've seen leap attack there a lot. Most players who have a look at CAdv and are melee oriented will want this feat, as it's "free damage", and "triple" is a very appealing word. Shock trooper, as a counter example, usually deters low-op players, who don't want to tank their AC.

It's a good feat, coming from a very wide-spread book (one of the only 4 splatbooks translated to my language, for example) that is appealing to low-op as well as optimizers, and has easy prerequisites. It shows up a lot. Common seems like a good word to describe it.

[Maat Mons]

If you don't mind a little added complexity maybe try this: If the attack roll is high enough to hit the target's touch AC, but not high enough to hit the target's regular AC, you hit an armored spot. Roll damage, but apply damage reduction from the armor. If the attack roll is high enough to hit the target's regular AC, you hit an unarmored spot. Roll damage and don't apply damage reduction from the armor. Would need to redo all the armor bonuses though.

[Asmotherion]

"Very common" - no printed monster has this. Ok.

What are you talking about? It's fighter 101.

I have yet to encounter a DM who exclusivelly uses "monsters as printed". The first thing a DM changes is Feats and Spells.

And, you don't usually see PCs with access to Full Plate, let alone Adamantine, at levels 1-4, nor are monsters with it usually encountered at those levels. Do you have any idea how much that stuff costs? Not in the budget of a Lv 1-4 character, that's for sure.

And DR 10 is easy to surpass with a d12 Weapon, power attack and a good Str mod.

If you have to worry about things a Lv 1-4 character can't do as a balance factor, you'll end up not playing 3.5 at all.

[HouseRules]

If you don't mind a little added complexity maybe try this: If the attack roll is high enough to hit the target's touch AC, but not high enough to hit the target's regular AC, you hit an armored spot. Roll damage, but apply damage reduction from the armor. If the attack roll is high enough to hit the target's regular AC, you hit an unarmored spot. Roll damage and don't apply damage reduction from the armor. Would need to redo all the armor bonuses though.

Flat-Footed AC and Touched Flat-Footed AC respectively when applicable.

[Feldar]

I have yet to encounter a DM who exclusivelly uses "monsters as printed". The first thing a DM changes is Feats and Spells.
I make a point in most adventures of using monsters exactly as written for about 2/3 of the encounters, but then my prep time is very limited. I save the hard work for meaningful encounters.


If you have to worry about things a Lv 1-4 character can't do as a balance factor, you'll end up not playing 3.5 at all.

Truth!


I've always House-ruled that Armor gives it's Hardness score as DR to the wearer.

I mean, it makes sence mechanically, and it's most helpful to classes on the lower end of the Tier-System.

This is interesting and I'm going to consider it for my high level game. However, my immediate question is if this rule is in place why would every high-level heavy armor wearing class not pay out for adamantine armor and the have a mage cast hardening on it? That seems like a bit much DR for classes that are already high on hit points.

[Elkad]

I've also eliminated the speed penalties for armor. Either you are encumbered by the weight or you aren't.
Heavy still has the "run at 3x" restriction though.

[Khosan]

Leap Attack is a level 5 feat. Level 1-4 cannot do sufficient damage is the issue.

Edit: Forgot

that Mithral has a hardness of 15.
+2 per enhancement.


I'd also add that it's another disincentive for TWF. I know it's suboptimal, but that's no reason to discourage it further when applying houserules.

There are also some other questions to ask before implementing a houserule like that, like how/why full plate and half plate offer the same DR and then to what extent the difference should be. Full plate should offer more than half plate both because it makes sense in-game (more of your body is covered) and because it's kind of a balancing factor (why invest in full plate for 1500 GP, which you can't even afford until 3rd level, over any other metal armor).

I'd still personally go for percentage DR. You might need a calculator, but it's not like that's a huge ask any more.

[Feldar]

There are also some other questions to ask before implementing a houserule like that, like how/why full plate and half plate offer the same DR and then to what extent the difference should be. Full plate should offer more than half plate both because it makes sense in-game (more of your body is covered) and because it's kind of a balancing factor (why invest in full plate for 1500 GP, which you can't even afford until 3rd level, over any other metal armor).

My personal understanding is that half-plate is basically metal plates on top of chain armor, so it's not that there is less body covered but less body covered with metal plates.

PHB 125 backs this up.

Small distinction perhaps...

[Zaile]

I make a point in most adventures of using monsters exactly as written for about 2/3 of the encounters, but then my prep time is very limited. I save the hard work for meaningful encounters.



Truth!



This is interesting and I'm going to consider it for my high level game. However, my immediate question is if this rule is in place why would every high-level heavy armor wearing class not pay out for adamantine armor and the have a mage cast hardening on it? That seems like a bit much DR for classes that are already high on hit points.

I like the idea of DR, but it still seems like a bit much. Make all your armors out of Mithril, you have DR 15/Mithril, ONLY mithril weapons could damage you.
Still, it's worth noting that DR at 10-20 is OP at low levels, but is negated at 15ish plus when creatures hit with SU & SP attacks and you have access to temp HP batteries like Minor Shapeshift.
I think half hardness (of 1 inch), rounded down could work.

[icefractal]

I have yet to encounter a DM who exclusivelly uses "monsters as printed". The first thing a DM changes is Feats and Spells.*raises hand*

I mean, I don't exclusively use them, but my default is to use monsters straight from the SRD (Pathfinder, so there are hundreds), sometimes re-skinned. I like to remain flexible as to what the PC's do, and I find that custom-crafting a bunch of foes inhibits that (by creating a desire to use the custom built foes, and therefore a subconscious reluctance to let them be bypassed). And also I just have a lot less desire to build dozens of characters than I used to.


And, you don't usually see PCs with access to Full Plate, let alone Adamantine, at levels 1-4, nor are monsters with it usually encountered at those levels.Adamantine no, but full plate? You can get that by 2nd level. And Splint Mail by 1st level.

So even assuming heavy armor is required (which wasn't stated), that's DR 10/- from 1st level onward. If you're using humanoid foes much, this probably hurts martial types more than it helps them, moreso if they're doing anything besides two-handed weapon. Even if not, it means anything that can hurt the armor wearers will splat any non armor-wearers - and at 1st level there's very limited options to avoid that.