Why are the gods' avatars stronger than the gods themselves?

[MartianPrince]

I'm speaking specifically about the content in the sourcebooks Deities & Demigods (2002), Faiths and Pantheons (2002), and Faiths & Avatars (1996). In Deities & Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons, we see the gods all seem to be between levels 30-50, with some of the stronger ones (such as Bane) who are higher. In Faiths and Pantheons, it says:


Despite this tremendous gulf between the mortal and
the divine, deities are defined in the some terms as mortals. They
have Hit Dice, character levels, and ability scores, but these are all
for higher than most mortals will ever achieve.

Okay, but then in Faiths & Avatars, we see something completely contradictory. It says:


An avatar is simply a manifestation of a deity
upon the Prime Material Plane. This manifestation is not nearly as power-
ful as a power and is merely a projection of a deity’s power to the Prime Ma-
terial Plane. An almost infinitely vast gulf of power lies between the god
and the avatar. The avatar embodies just a small portion of the god’s power.

And then we see that the avatars of many of these gods have absurdly high levels, like Bane (Level 111) and Kelemvor (Level 76).

What? How does this make any sense? In Faiths and Pantheons, Bane is at Level 65, but in Faiths & Avatars his avatar is somehow stronger, at Level 111? This is the case for many (if not all) of the Faerûnian gods: their avatars are way stronger than the gods themselves.

Can someone explain?

[Millstone85]

Good question, but you would have better luck asking it in the D&D 3e/3.5 forum, since this is the edition these books belong to.

[MartianPrince]

Whoops. Good point. I'll take the question there. Thanks.

[JackPhoenix]

Faiths & Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons come from different editions, with different mechanics.

[Imbalance]

Because their avatars level up in-game while the gods become sedentary, sitting on the couch mashing buttons for eons on end.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Imaging a squishy little human controlling a giant robot?

[DarknessEternal]

Forgotten Realms gods aren't gods. They're just high level characters.

A god cannot be given D&D stats.

[Zevox]

Faiths & Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons come from different editions, with different mechanics.
This. Faiths & Avatars was 2E, while Faiths & Pantheons was 3E.

Note also that Faiths & Pantheons includes a section on the gods' avatars just after the stats on the gods themselves, describing in specific detail how they're weaker than the main god.

[Millstone85]

Now I feel bad for not realizing the full issue with editions.

[Naanomi]

Forgotten Realms gods aren't gods. They're just high level characters.

A god cannot be given D&D stats.
I mean... lots of classic mythologies have heroic people challenging the Gods directly, sometimes physically, occasionally winning. Largely depends on how you operationalize the term 'gods'. By some strict definitions, the Great Wheel either doesn't have Gods at all (like the Athar would claim) or they are the incredibly distant and largely immoral 'agents of creation' the Eldest Ones that it is implied overpowers serve (albeit perhaps with a few layers of bureaucracy between the two)

[Unoriginal]

In 5e, Greater Deities don't have stats, but they can send Avatars in their stead. While Lesser Deities and lower on the totem pole can show up "in person".

That being said, if one is a Greater Deity or not depends on which Crystal Sphere the specific world is in. Gods are weird like that as they vary in power in their semi-ubiquity.


Forgotten Realms gods aren't gods. They're just high level characters.

A god cannot be given D&D stats.

"No True Scotsman" isn't an argument. If the setting defines a god as X, then X is a god.

[KorvinStarmast]

A god cannot be given D&D stats. Tim Kask disagrees with you. :smallbiggrin:
What the original aim was, in giving deities stats in Gods, Demigods, and Heroes, was to establish the absurdity of mere mortals taking on deities. DMs then discovered, however, that if you stat it they will come ... and kill it. Hilariously, subsequent editions doubled down and tried ever harder in that regard, and kept running into the same problem with PCs. (Muerderous little bastidges that they are!). There was a Notable Exception: The Lady of Pain seems to have gotten around all of that - I mean, do you really want to mess with her? :smalleek: Even deities approach her with caution.


Statting deities is, in other words, the absolute opposite of a 'best practice'

[Composer99]

In 5e, player characters have the opportunity to fight Tiamat or Auril, depending on which adventure they go on. Pretty sure they're both the actual gods, and not avatars. They can also be killed, but never permanently.

For what it's worth, as far as I can see, books such as Faiths and Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons give gods lots of class levels not because we're meant to view them as "just high level characters" - say rather that it depends on how we want to use them in our settings as GMs - but because those class levels gave them the abilities the writers wanted them to have (or felt would be thematic for them), especially in editions such as 3.X where one uses essentially the same procedure to construct NPCs as PCs (a very tedious process indeed when constructing a god, what with all the class levels, outsider Hit Dice, divine ranks, and stuff).

[Millstone85]

In 5e, Greater Deities don't have stats, but they can send Avatars in their stead. While Lesser Deities and lower on the totem pole can show up "in person".
In 5e, player characters have the opportunity to fight Tiamat or Auril, depending on which adventure they go on. Pretty sure they're both the actual gods, and not avatars. They can also be killed, but never permanently.A weird thing about this edition is that it gives several examples of lesser deities, including Tiamat, but not a single example of a greater deity. Based on the DMG's description of greater deities as being removed from mortal affairs, I suspect the title is now reserved to the likes of Ao and beyond.

But indeed, the difference between a deity showing up in person or as an avatar might be academic, since you shouldn't count on that person staying dead. As Elminster puts it: "If the gods can grant the power to raise mortals from death, why do ye assume they should be laid low by it forever?" (SCAG p20)

[Unoriginal]

But indeed, the difference between a deity showing up in person or as an avatar might be academic, since you shouldn't count on that person staying dead. As Elminster puts it: "If the gods can grant the power to raise mortals from death, why do ye assume they should be laid low by it forever?" (SCAG p20)

Quite true. In Tomb of Annihilation, for example

the Nine Trickster Gods of Omu are dead and starved of worship, yet they still have (some) power and can communicate. Main issue is that they can't walk around without a vessel for the time being.

Only way to truly kill a god is to steal their divine spark, and even then they can be restored.

[Naanomi]

Only way to truly kill a god is to steal their divine spark, and even then they can be restored.
Though a God completely without worshipers for long enough would need exceptional acts to restore (like the long forgotten husk the githyanki have their base on)

[KorvinStarmast]

Though a God completely without worshipers for long enough would need exceptional acts to restore (like the long forgotten husk the githyanki have their base on) Which thought elicited in my brain a revival of All Your Base Are Belong to Us - which now has a divine aspect.