Costing a 3.5 ring for pathfinder?

[aglondier]

It's a really nice ring, but I can't find an equivalent in pathfinder to compare it against. A +2 to Perception is easy enough, but advantage on Initiative rolls is a bit harder. Can anyone advise?

Ring Of Anticipation
This unusual ring is wrought from smooth, transparent lavender glass.
While wearing a ring of anticipation, you gain a +2 competence bonus on listen and Spot checks. When making initiative checks, you can roll twice and take the better result.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisite: Forge Ring, cat's grace, owl's wisdom. Market Price: 6,000 gp; Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) divination; Weight: -; Cost to Create: 3,000 gp, 240 XP, 6 days.

[Kurald Galain]

Strictly numerically, for init bonus I'd go 250 * 4 * 4 = 4000 (rolling twice is statistically close to a flat +4), the skill bonus 100 * 2 * 2 = 400, combining both on one item for 4600 total. And that's way too cheap, because for that price, practically every character will want one.

Comparing it to existing items, the closest is a set of greater talismans of danger sense, which gives +5 to initiative three times per day, and costs 22500. And that's way too expensive.

And by the metric of "how much would you pay for it", if 4600 is way too cheap and 22500 is way too expensive, I'd say 10000 is a fair price.

HTH.

[HouseRules]

High Formula:

For Initiative: Spell Level (Cat's Grace = 2) x Caster Level (7) x Continuous 1 min/level (4000) = 56,000 GP.
For Skill Bonus: Bonus Squared (2 x 2) x 100 x Multiple different abilities (1.5) = 600 GP.
Subtotal Market Price = 56,600 GP.
XP Cost to GP Cost = x1.2
Total Market Price = 67,920 GP.


Mid Formula

For Initiative: Spell Level (Cat's Grace = 2) x Caster Level (7) x Continuous as 100 Charges (1500) = 21,000 gp.
For Skill Bonus: Bonus Squared (2 x 2) x 100 gp x Multiple different abilities (1.5) = 600 gp.
Subtotal Market Price = 21,600 gp.
XP Cost to GP Cost = x1.2
Total Market Price = 25,920 GP.


Low Formula

For Initiative: Bonus Squares (4 x 4) x "Partial" Ability Bonus (1000 gp * 1/4) = 4,000 GP.

@"Kurald Galain" where did you get the 1/4 to make it 250 GP?

For Skill Bonus: Bonus Squared (2 x 2) x 100 gp x Multiple different abilities (1.5) = 600 GP.
Subtotal Market Price = 4,600 GP.
XP Cost to GP Cost = x1.2
Total Market Price = 5,520 GP.


Edit: Forgot the XP Cost, which is 1/25 of subtotal. Convert to GP Cost is 1/5 of subtotal.

[Kurald Galain]

@"Kurald Galain" where did you get the 1/4 to make it 250 gp?
There's an ioun stone that gives +1 init for 500. Since that is slotless, a slotted item would cost half.

That strikes me as undercosted, but also a +4 init shouldn't cost the same as permanent cat's grace (which is comparable to a Belt of Dexterity, and does a whole lot more than just init).

[HouseRules]

There's an ioun stone that gives +1 init for 500. Since that is slotless, a slotted item would cost half.

That strikes me as undercosted, but also a +4 init shouldn't cost the same as permanent cat's grace (which is comparable to a Belt of Dexterity, and does a whole lot more than just init).

If I use 3.5 Market price to find the value, it would be 2/7, as the market value is somewhat "rounded".
Here's another formula:

3.5 Market Value = 6,000 GP.
Skill Merge = -600 GP.
Subtotal Cost = 5,400 GP.
XP Cost to GP Cost = x1.2
Total Market Value: 6,480 GP.

[sreservoir]

Strictly numerically, for init bonus I'd go 250 * 4 * 4 = 4000 (rolling twice is statistically close to a flat +4), the skill bonus 100 * 2 * 2 = 400, combining both on one item for 4600 total. And that's way too cheap, because for that price, practically every character will want one.

Comparing it to existing items, the closest is a set of greater talismans of danger sense, which gives +5 to initiative three times per day, and costs 22500. And that's way too expensive.

And by the metric of "how much would you pay for it", if 4600 is way too cheap and 22500 is way too expensive, I'd say 10000 is a fair price.

HTH.

Note that rolling twice and taking better is usually better than a flat +4 bonus—if you're buying items to improve your initiative in the first place, you probably also have a higher initiative bonus than expected, so the reduced variance is also to your benefit. (Of course, if you have a lower initiative bonus than other participants in an encounter, then it's worth less. However, if you're spending that much in an initiative arms race and still losing, you'd probably be better off taking your money and exiting the initiative race entirely.)

[Kurald Galain]

if you're buying items to improve your initiative in the first place, you probably also have a higher initiative bonus than expected

Why would that be true? For a ring slot and 6000 gp in pocket change, I'd expect almost every character to want this ring.

[Feldar]

Why would that be true? For a ring slot and 6000 gp in pocket change, I'd expect almost every character to want this ring.

The ring slot is the kicker though -- they are very limited.

[upho]

I think the dueling weapon is the most similar of existing items, which grants a +4 enhancement bonus (read: stacks with everything) to initiative for a flat 14,000 gp cost. That is however also practically slotless, so I think a fair price for this ring would be around 10,000 gp (increasing to 15,000 gp if combined with a more expensive ring in the same slot, as normal).

If your game doesn't allow combining items in the same slot for the usual x 1.5 market price (for some weird reason), this ring should probably be quite a bit cheaper. Although that would be true for a lot of existing items as well.

[HouseRules]

I think the dueling weapon is the most similar of existing items, which grants a +4 enhancement bonus (read: stacks with everything) to initiative for a flat 14,000 gp cost. That is however also practically slotless, so I think a fair price for this ring would be around 10,000 gp (increasing to 15,000 gp if combined with a more expensive ring in the same slot, as normal).

If your game doesn't allow combining items in the same slot for the usual x 1.5 market price (for some weird reason), this ring should probably be quite a bit cheaper. Although that would be true for a lot of existing items as well.

Slotless is x2 cost, so a +4 init at 14,000 GP means a slotted one is 7,000 GP. A reasonable price puts it at 8,000 GP. The skill is 400, x1.5 as an additional effect, and x1.2 to make up the lack of xp cost in pf, means +720. The 7,720 rounds up to 8,000 GP.

All items prices 4 digit or less are rounded up so the second digit is multiple of 5, and all items 5 digits or more are rounded up so the third digit is multiple of 5.

[Kurald Galain]

If your game doesn't allow combining items in the same slot for the usual x 1.5 market price
Combining items in a single slot is a 3.5 rule, not a PF rule. I'm pretty sure it's also an optional rule in 3.5, and not by default available in all campaigns outside of charop.

[upho]

Combining items in a single slot is a 3.5 rule, not a PF rule. I'm pretty sure it's also an optional rule in 3.5, and not by default available in all campaigns outside of charop.From the CRB (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/Magic-Item-Creation/#Adding_New_Abilities):


Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.

/snip/

If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.And while I guess one could argue that this is part of GM guidelines rather than player rules, the way it's written nevertheless strongly implies that the intended default is that stacking items in the same slot is allowed, at least if a PC is crafting the item/addition in question. (This is unlike the guidelines for making items with new effects.)

But far more importantly, not allowing item stacking limits mechanical character variation quite severely, especially in the case of non-casters. So unless you're running a game for beginners who are likely to simply get confused by having significant item options beyond the big six (or similar), I really do think it's weird to not allow item stacking.

[Kurald Galain]

From the CRB (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/Magic-Item-Creation/#Adding_New_Abilities):

Interesting, I did not know that.

I note, however, that the same page spells out "The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item."

And that means that the only valid estimates in this thread are the talismans of danger sense (22500) or the dueling weapon (14000; and considering it can only be placed on a finessable weapon and most classes don't use those, I don't think it's fair to call that slotless).

[Firebug]

The Planar Infusion(Dimension of Time) Feat allows you to roll twice and take the highest for initiative... once a day. When you get the improved and greater version, you also get another use per day. So however you cost taking 3 feats with prereqs. I'd probably do something like bonus squared times 4000(we have examples of ioun stones giving feats for 8-10k), where the bonus is the number of feats required. So 36k, plus the perception bit.

The Temporal Celerity from the Time mystery for Oracle (or War Sight for Battle) allows you to roll twice and take the better. This is probably the simplest, as you can just take a Lesser Ring of Revelation (https://aonprd.com/MagicRingsDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Ring%20of%20Revel ationlesser) if you are allowed to UMD it as a non-oracle (you can't in PFS, and I don't remember if that was FAQed to normal play). 10k, plus the perception bit.

Some other sources:
Tactics subdomain of War for clerics can grant 3+Wis rerolls per day on initiative.
Action before Thought, Monk Ki Power. Cost 2 Ki to activate, requires level 6.
Pact Wizard can make 3 +1/2 int rerolls at 10 on init.
Fangwood Insurgent trait can get 1 reroll per day... in a forest.

[upho]

Interesting, I did not know that.Judging from the related posts I've read on various forums, you're far from alone in having missed this. Might be that the PFS houserules have led people to believe otherwise. Thankfully, implementing this as an actual rule also makes sense and doesn't notably increase the risk of things getting out of hand (unlike allowing players to create whatever new items they want using the pricing guidelines).


I note, however, that the same page spells out "The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item."

And that means that the only valid estimates in this thread are the talismans of danger sense (22500) or the dueling weapon (14000; and considering it can only be placed on a finessable weapon and most classes don't use those, I don't think it's fair to call that slotless).True. To clarify, I meant that the dueling weapon is somewhat comparable to a stacked item, meaning it's "base price" could be extrapolated to approximately 9,333 gp. Add the 400 600 gp for the competence bonus and you end up pretty close to 10 grand. Which I also think seems fair, all things considered, making it a very good item but not a no-brainer AFAICT.

Do you think 10 grand is too low?


Slotless is x2 cost, so a +4 init at 14,000 GP means a slotted one is 7,000 GP. A reasonable price puts it at 8,000 GP. The skill is 400, x1.5 as an additional effect, and x1.2 to make up the lack of xp cost in pf, means +720. The 7,720 rounds up to 8,000 GP.As Kurald noted, I was being incorrect when calling the dueling weapon "practically slotless". And the general PF price formula for skill competence bonuses to a slotted item is [bonus squared x 100 gp], so 400 600 gp in this case.


Lots of non-item initiative reroll stuff.While interesting and perhaps worth considering, these things are generally too far from being reasonably comparable to the item in question and their relative cost to benefit ratios are all over the place IMO. For example, the mentioned planar infusion feat chain would suck big-time if it only granted the rerolls, and each feat would probably need to be priced closer to Weapon Focus + weapon familiarity from (a lucky use of) a COWPIS in a wayfinder (2,000 gp, slotless) to be worthwhile in item form.

(Btw, seems PFS was correct about the ring of revelation, as RAW you definitely can't use it with UMD. UMD only lets you "pretend" that you have a class feature, while the ring requires you to be a class. I believe at least the item description in the second printing of UE - which is the one on Nethys - make this clear, but I don't remember if the first printed version was different and I only have the updated PDF.)

[Kurald Galain]

Might be that the PFS houserules have led people to believe otherwise.
At least in my experience, most campaigns either disallow crafting, or give not enough time or money to craft more than basic potions or +1 gear, or have no PCs interested in crafting in the first place. Custom crafting just doesn't come up much. I agree that it doesn't get out of hand with this rule.


Do you think 10 grand is too low?
I feel that's a good price, as it would make me consider the item on most characters (meaning it is neither a no-go nor an automatic pic).


(we have examples of ioun stones giving feats for 8-10k)
The problem here is that some feats are much better than other feats; getting the feat of your choice for 8-10k is far underpriced.

[Drelua]

I have played in 2 campaigns that allowed us to do as much crafting as we want so everyone took crafting feats, even my monk in one of them took master craftsman and craft wondrous, and we were allowed to combine items as much as we want. Having done that, I would always allow them when I GM. It doesn't really make you more powerful exactly, I mostly just used it to take fun little items like muleback cords and a heavy load belt. My Ranger in the other game had a light load of about 5000 pounds, which helped a lot when we wanted to teleport something very heavy. Teleport says up to your max load, and that character could pick up most elephants.