Best Duelist Class(s)

[The_Cardinal]

I'm fairly new to D&D and I'm trying to come up with a brilliant, smart, swashbuckling type character. Probably nothing original there, but I'm just looking for a bit of outside input from people who may have done it before.

At the moment, I'm looking at going Rogue, Fighter, Fighter, Rogue, Fighter, Fighter, Rogue, and then taking the Duelist PRC. The character I have in mind is Human

I figure that the sneak attack from the rogue classes will be worthwhile, especially combined with the high initiative this guy has, but otherwise damage-dealing output is going to be rather shabby- even with weapon specialisation feat.

Is the Swashbuckler class worth looking at?
Anyone with any ideas, tips?

Cheers!

[Temp]

Is the Swashbuckler class worth looking at?
Anyone with any ideas, tips?Diamond-Mind Warblade from the Tome of Battle.

It makes non-spellcasting swashbuckler-y types worth playing.

[edit:]

At the moment, I'm looking at going Rogue, Fighter, Fighter, Rogue, Fighter, Fighter, Rogue, and then taking the Duelist PRC. The character I have in mind is Human

I figure that the sneak attack from the rogue classes will be worthwhile, especially combined with the high initiative this guy has, but otherwise damage-dealing output is going to be rather shabby- even with weapon specialisation feat.
Honestly, straight Rogue makes the best Swashbuckler character in the Core rules. Duelist doesn't actually give you a damage source; it just saps your feats to make you really hard to hit. That means you end up sitting around the battlefield, completely untouchable, with nothing to do.

Or, if you have access to Complete Warrior and Complete Scoundrel, a Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 2/Swashbuckler X character with the Daring Outlaw feat does well. Not Warblade-well, but a lot better than Duelist.

Swashbuckler's from CW; Daring Outlaw's from CS.

...And don't be fooled by the Swashbuckler class. Only three levels of it are worth taking without the Daring Outlaw feat. Daring Outlaw makes Swash/Rogue Multiclasses keep the same Sneak Attack as an equal-level Rogue.

[edit:] Ninja'ed in my editting.

[SadisticFishing]

Alright, well there are several ways to do this.

Fighter/Rogue/Duelist is not bad, but not incredible.

If you're willing to leave core:

Rogue 1/Swashbuckler (CWar) 3/Rogue +2(3)/Swashbuckler+14(17) with the Daring Outlaw (CAdv or CSco, not sure) feat is rather good - the feat lets your Swashbuckler and Rogue levels stack for Sneak Attack, so you'll be doing 10d6 sneak attack damage on every hit, and only lose 1 point of BAB. Take the alternate Swashbuckler class thing from PHB2 and you can two weapon fight for a lot of damage, with decent AC.

Personally, I would play a Gnomish Blade Bravo (Races of Stone). I'd do something like Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Blade Bravo 10 (not in this order).

[The_Cardinal]

Honestly, straight Rogue makes the best Swashbuckler character in the Core rules. Duelist doesn't actually give you a damage source; it just saps your feats to make you really hard to hit. That means you end up sitting around the battlefield, completely untouchable, with nothing to do.

Duelist does give you Precise Strike, which gives you +1d6 damage at 5th level, increasing to +2d6 at 10th, and you don't have to flank or catch your enemy flat-footed to achieve it. Like rogues sneak attack, precise strike won't work on undead etc.

One big weakness this character will have is his pathetic Will save. It's unlikely I'll put a large wisdom score in there, or take Iron Will.

[Temp]

Duelist does give you Precise Strike, which gives you +1d6 damage at 5th level, increasing to +2d6 at 10th, and you don't have to flank or catch your enemy flat-footed to achieve it. Like rogues sneak attack, precise strike won't work on undead etc.Precise Strike means your level 11 Fighter4/Rogue2/Duelist5 does an extra 2d6 damage. 2d6 damage is meaningless, especially when it's restricted to one weapon's attacks. Your level 11 Rogue gets 6d6 sneak attack on attacks and can two-weapon fight with that damage. He also applies it to Ranged combat if that's neccessary.

Rogues also get better skill points and equal (or better) armor until Duelist 7 (ECL 13)--at which point, you'll have a hard time recovering any contributions you may once have had in combat.

Rogues also get UMD as a class skill.

The Rogue class ability list is also more than a couple +1 and 2s to Reflex saves and Initiative.

And Rogues get UMD as a class skill, which really bears more than one repetition.

[Overlard]

Duelist does give you Precise Strike, which gives you +1d6 damage at 5th level, increasing to +2d6 at 10th, and you don't have to flank or catch your enemy flat-footed to achieve it. Like rogues sneak attack, precise strike won't work on undead etc.
That's 2d6 over 10 levels. Not really worth it, when a rogue/swashbuckler will give you 5d6 over the same period. Sure, you need to flank, but that's not hard to do.

[Person_Man]

A melee build really needs source of damage that scales well to be useful. Most people use Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper with a 2 handed weapon. Rogues can use Sneak Attack and the Two Weapon Fighting tree. The Duelist has pretty bad offensive abilities, and AC really isn't that important in high level games. So I'd avoid it.

What books do you have available to you? If you have Complete Scoundrel, there's a simple feat called Daring Outlaw. It allows your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels to stack for Sneak Attack. So you can go Rogue 3/Swash 17 and end up with a 19/20 BAB character with full Sneak Attack. Not uber, but respectable.

[cupkeyk]

With 13 Strength, Lots of intelligence, a Swashbuckler can also 2hw with a spiked chain or elevn court blade.

[Nowhere Girl]

A swordsage build with the Shadow Blade feat is good if you want to be a real finessey duelist. Just call your shortsword a "smallsword" for RP flavor. Rapiers and smallswords were not the same kind of sword, anyway, and those light, whippy blades you associate with Zorro are smallswords, not rapiers.

[cupkeyk]

I thought Zorro used epees?

[Sornjss Lichdom]

Im jsut saying that the best rogue PrC is assassin, they got it right the first thing. just enough spells and buffs to be dead useful. and also advances sneakattack and gives you the most niffty one hit attack, the death attack. but thats just my two cents. swashbuckler is fun for fluff but i find that you can make your life less complecated and gaming go smoother just to go straight rogue and drop into assassin after level five. the only problem is the evil requirement, that i always thought was bull anyways, so jsut talk to your DM and see if he will bend the rules for you.

[Nowhere Girl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallsword

The epee is a direct descendant of the smallsword, in any case. The rapier is much older, and it's a much larger, longer and heavier weapon.

[AslanCross]

I'd go with Rogue/Swashbuckler as well. Take a few levels in Swashbuckler (probably up to Lv 3, which gets you Precise Strike), then Rogue the rest of the way. Take the Daring Outlaw feat to stack class levels. (Swashbuckler is in Complete Warrior, btw)

[Spiryt]

The epee is a direct descendant of the smallsword, in any case. The rapier is much older, and it's a much larger, longer and heavier weapon.

Still, I think that rapier stats in D&D can represent smallswords as well.

We know that game designers had "light, quick, finesse blade" (whatever that means, but this certainly can mean smallsword) in mind . Even though rapier in Players Handbook looks like some thin falchion. :smallwink:

[cupkeyk]

Im jsut saying that the best rogue PrC is assassin, they got it right the first thing. just enough spells and buffs to be dead useful. and also advances sneakattack and gives you the most niffty one hit attack, the death attack. but thats just my two cents. swashbuckler is fun for fluff but i find that you can make your life less complecated and gaming go smoother just to go straight rogue and drop into assassin after level five. the only problem is the evil requirement, that i always thought was bull anyways, so jsut talk to your DM and see if he will bend the rules for you.

And the 3/4 BAB will get you killed before you kill anyone.

Swashbuckler is actually a good entry base class for Assassin. there is a non-evil variant, and official too, in the WOTC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a).

[Nowhere Girl]

Still, I think that rapier stats in D&D can represent smallswords as well.

We know that game designers had "light, quick, finesse blade" (whatever that means, but this certainly can mean smallsword) in mind . Even though rapier in Players Handbook looks like some thin falchion. :smallwink:

Or, so that people can actually play duelists as duelists, with all that finessey goodness, and without being gimps, you can use a short sword for a smallsword, apply Shadow Blade to it, and actually become able to enjoy your character because your Dexterity applies to damage. Which was my point.

[Temp]

Swashbuckler is actually a good entry base class for Assassin. there is a non-evil variant, and official too, in the WOTC website.
If you are to go this route and you still like the concept of the Duelist class, look at the Bladesinger in the Complete Arcane Warrior.

Whatever 5/Assassin 5/Bladesinger 10

gets pretty much everything the Duelist has, but it actually has some stuff to do.

And seriously consider Nowhere Girl's suggestion. Tome of Battle is--more often than not--the answer to all your troubles.

[Renegade Paladin]

Is your DM open to non-WotC content? I have a rebuild of the swashbuckler class in mind that I let my players use and have thus far found to be quite balanced, and much more worth taking into higher levels than WotC's version.

[Spiryt]

Or, so that people can actually play duelists as duelists, with all that finessey goodness, and without being gimps, you can use a short sword for a smallsword, apply Shadow Blade to it, and actually become able to enjoy your character because your Dexterity applies to damage. Which was my point.

Well, in the first place , The Cardinal didn't stated that he wants his character to use rapier or smallsword anywhere. So he/she can just pick a shortsword and call it "shortsword".

BTW: Wouldn't kukri stats be better for smallsword? Just wondering.

[Temp]

BTW: Wouldn't kukri stats be better for smallsword? Just wonderingBeyond first level, yes.

When base weapon damage still is relevant though, an extra reliable damage point per attack is a good thing.

[Nowhere Girl]

Well, in the first place , The Cardinal didn't stated that he wants his character to use rapier or smallsword anywhere. So he/she can just pick a shortsword and call it "shortsword".

BTW: Wouldn't kukri stats be better for smallsword? Just wondering.

No, and not at any level ... for a finessey duelist ... because kukris are not compatible with Shadow Blade.

And it didn't need to be stated because "duelist" is typically associated with rapiers and smallswords, much like "gunslinger" is typically associated with handguns.

[The_Cardinal]

Still, I think that rapier stats in D&D can represent smallswords as well.

We know that game designers had "light, quick, finesse blade" (whatever that means, but this certainly can mean smallsword) in mind . Even though rapier in Players Handbook looks like some thin falchion. :smallwink:

The way individual swords are defined is difficult to get a consensus on. The longsword (for example) might be discribed by one person as a two-handed blade, or a one-handed blade. The falchion in my mind doesn't bear much resemblance at all to the falchion in the PHB, but more as a one-handed, almost machete type weapon. The smallsword could be statted with either rapier or shortsword. Yeah, cool. I get it.

The definitions in the PHB may not be accurate, we know that. But they do create a standard.

[The_Cardinal]

Is your DM open to non-WotC content? I have a rebuild of the swashbuckler class in mind that I let my players use and have thus far found to be quite balanced, and much more worth taking into higher levels than WotC's version.

Probably not, but I'm curious about it anyway :smallsmile:
Show us what ya got.