Clarification of Definitions

[LumenPlacidum]

Can I just take a moment to share and seek responses to what I consider to be some less-understood distinctions in 5th edition D&D?

Weapons and Attacks!

Attack (note the capitalized 'A') : one of the typical actions available to almost all creatures in the game

attack (note the non-capitalized 'a') : an event in the game in which one creature is making an attack roll against another

attack roll : an event carried out by the player in which they add a bonus and try to overcome an armor class

weapon : an in-game object or body part that constitutes one of the avenues by which a creature can make a weapon attack

natural weapon : a weapon that is specifically a body part; subcategory of weapon

melee attack : an event in the game in which one creature is making an attack roll against another as dictated by the melee combat rules; subcategory of attack

ranged attack : an event in the game in which one creature is making an attack roll against another as dictated by the ranged combat rules; subcategory of attack

weapon attack : an event in the game in which one creature is making an attack roll against another by physical means, to distinguish from a spell attack; subcategory of attack

spell attack : an event in the game in which one creature is making an attack roll against another by some supernatural means, to distinguish from a weapon attack; subcategory of attack

melee weapon attack : an attack which is both a melee attack and a weapon attack; these use Strength for attack and da

ranged weapon attack : an attack which is both a ranged attack and a weapon attack

melee spell attack : an attack which is both a melee attack and a spell attack

ranged spell attack : an attack which is both a ranged attack and a spell attack

unarmed strike : an avenue of making an attack that is available to all creatures; unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks, but an unarmed strike is not a weapon unless made with a natural weapon; unless otherwise stated, unarmed strikes do 1 point of bludgeoning damage.

magic weapon : a weapon that explicitly says it is "magic"

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So, you make a tortle wizard 5 / monk 3. You have tortle claws, a staff, and you cast Shadow Blade.

Tortle's claws are written as: Your claws are natural weapons, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with them, you deal slashing damage equal to 1d4 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike.

Shadow Blade is written as: You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60). In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage.

This character takes the Attack action on their turn, which lets them make an attack with one of their options. The options for that attack are that they can go with a weapon (claws, staff, or shadow blade) or with an unarmed strike. If they choose weapon->claws, then they are making an unarmed strike anyway, but one that explicitly does 1d4 base piercing damage. For all of the options, they can making a melee weapon attack. With the shadow blade, they can make a ranged weapon attack (which doesn't change the fact that the shadow blade is a melee weapon - they're just making a ranged attack with that melee weapon). If instead of choosing a weapon, they choose unarmed strike, then they would be doing the normal 1 point of bludgeoning damage. However, you're a monk and not wearing armor. So, your unarmed strike gets upgraded to your Martial Arts die, doing 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage and letting you attack with Dexterity instead. The shadow blade also lets you attack with Dexterity, but for the totally unrelated reason of its being a finesse weapon.

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One thing I'm really not sure about is whether you can actually make tortle claw attacks with flurry of blows. I've definitely done it before. Unarmed strike is a specific option for attacks, and the claw natural weapon is also. The claw IS an unarmed strike, but when you're forced to make an unarmed strike, it might not be that you can select the claw natural weapon. You might have to go down the avenue of not using a weapon attack at all.

Anyway, what did I miss?

[LumenPlacidum]

Oh, one other thing. Sneak attack's wording where it stipulates conditions using these terms is "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon." But, it doesn't say that it has to be a weapon attack. "Using" a weapon is a little more subjective... If I am a rogue/wizard and I attach a Ruby of the War Mage (common item from XGE) to let my dagger be a spellcasting focus, and then I cast the spell Melf's acid arrow, which normally does require a material component, then I am making a ranged spell attack with that spell, but I am using my dagger to do so. Can I sneak attack with it?

[Unoriginal]

One thing I'm really not sure about is whether you can actually make tortle claw attacks with flurry of blows.

Flurry of Blows let you use your unarmed strike, with all and any modifications applied to it by other features (should you wish so).

So a lvl 3 Tortle Monk could do:

-1d4+STR or +DEX bludgeoning damage

-1d4 + STR or +DEX piercing damage

-1 + STR or + DEX bludgeoning damage

with their unarmed strikes.

And if a lvl 4 Tortle Monk took the Fighting Initiate (Unarmed Fighting Style) feat, they could also do:

-1d6 or 1d8 +STR or +DEX bludgeoning damage

-1d6 or 1d8 + STR or +DEX piercing damage


Oh, one other thing. Sneak attack's wording where it stipulates conditions using these terms is "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon." But, it doesn't say that it has to be a weapon attack. "Using" a weapon is a little more subjective... If I am a rogue/wizard and I attach a Ruby of the War Mage (common item from XGE) to let my dagger be a spellcasting focus, and then I cast the spell Melf's acid arrow, which normally does require a material component, then I am making a ranged spell attack with that spell, but I am using my dagger to do so. Can I sneak attack with it?

No, you can't.

1) You are not using the dagger, you are using the Ruby

2) You are obviously trying to exact-wording more power out of the ability, rather than respecting the spirit of the ability.

[LumenPlacidum]

You are obviously trying to exact-wording more power out of the ability, rather than respecting the spirit of the ability.

I'm not sure whether to be salty because this was confrontational or proud that this was the first response from a forum that seems to mostly provide useful optimization tips to players. Good on you, I guess, for that being the first go-to.

That said, the ruby lets you use the weapon as the spellcasting focus. It's not that the ruby is the spellcasting focus and is conveniently attached to the weapon. Regardless, though, there are other options that let you use weapons as spellcasting foci. The Improved Pact Weapon invocation, for another. There's definitely no other item interfering there.

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure whether to be salty because this was confrontational or proud that this was the first response from a forum that seems to mostly provide useful optimization tips to players. Good on you, I guess, for that being the first go-to.

The second go-to, I would say.

Regardless, my opinion is that if one wants to optimize, optimization isn't "exploit/abuse wordings for more power", it's "figure out how to have the best result from what the game offers".



That said, the ruby lets you use the weapon as the spellcasting focus. It's not that the ruby is the spellcasting focus and is conveniently attached to the weapon. Regardless, though, there are other options that let you use weapons as spellcasting foci. The Improved Pact Weapon invocation, for another. There's definitely no other item interfering there.

You are correct on that point, but doesn't change the "wording of the rule, not the spirit" part. Like many things, it is up to each individual DM to decide how they rule that interaction.


I hope the part about Flurry of Blows was useful to you, at least.

[KorvinStarmast]

If I am a rogue/wizard and I attach a Ruby of the War Mage (common item from XGE) to let my dagger be a spellcasting focus, and then I cast the spell Melf's acid arrow, which normally does require a material component, then I am making a ranged spell attack with that spell, but I am using my dagger to do so. Can I sneak attack with it? No, you are not. You are using the dagger as a spell casting focus, or arcane focus, just as you would be using components from a component pouch in that case to provide the material component.

Are you suggesting that when you use the spell casting component - Powdered rhubarb leaf and an adder's stomach - from your component pouch that you are making a weapon attack? I hope not.

This doesn't even call for a DM ruling. It calls for the player to review how an arcane focus, or a spell casting focus, works.

Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell. If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components—or to hold a spellcasting focus—but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.


(In other words, read the whole book - I have gotten tripped up like that before too).

Arcane Focus. An arcane focus is a special item—an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand like length of wood, or some similar item—designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as
described in chapter 10. What the Ruby of the War mage does is allow the dagger to also perform as the above foci do.

Etched with eldritch runes, this 1-inch-diameter ruby allows you to use a simple or martial weapon as a Spellcasting Focus for your Spells. For this property to work, you must attach the ruby to the weapon by pressing the ruby against it for at least 10 minutes. Thereafter, the ruby can’t be removed unless you detach it as an action or the weapon is destroyed. Not even an Antimagic Field causes it to fall off. The ruby does fall off the weapon if your Attunement to the ruby ends.

It's a simple "no, you are using the dagger as a substitute for the spell casting components, which are powdered rhubarb leaf and an adder's stomach."