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thirdlaw
2021-03-12, 07:23 PM
So I've been playing D&D since the early days of 3e, but 10 years and 3000 miles away from the last time I ran that edition I now find myself DMing for a group that has never played anything except 5e. I thought it would be fun to go back and run through all of the previous versions of The World's Greatest Roleplaying Game TM and hopefully have some laughs along the way. I'm hoping some of you out there who have far more experience with the early editions of the game than I will be able to boil down the essence of what peculiarities to highlight for each version.

The Structure: A dungeon delve where each successive level down is a different version of the game, running backwards. So 5e at the top, OD&D at the bottom, and a return passage detour through Basic to bring the players out at the end. I have a pretty good handle on 3rd-5th, but all ideas are welcome.

The PCs: I'm planning to convert the 5e versions of the characters to the best fit from each prior edition.

The Tone: I'm looking to roast each version for its flaws, but with love.

Advance thanks for any and all suggestions!

erikun
2021-03-12, 09:08 PM
So you mean I could level up in the 3e floor, grab a new class, then take advantage of the AD&D multiclassing XP tables just one floor down? Nice. :smallcool:

A bit more seriously, there is a big divide between the TSR D&D versions (OD&D, AD&D, Basic) and the WotC D&D systems starting with D&D3e. While D&D3e tried to roughly convert all the AD&D2e stuff, it wasn't exactly accurate and added a bunch of stuff. Multiclassing is vastly different: you'd level in two classes simultaneously, unless you were human then you'd dual-class by quitting one class and starting a second. Skill points are gone completely as well, instead using non-weapon proficiencies (AD&D2e, either you have it or you don't) or nothing in earlier editions.

The other major factor is that monsters don't have a CR or level listed, so you need to eyeball or have some experience with them to judge what works. You could just use a prepped module to have something that could work. Otherwise, take a look at the monster's AC, HP, THAC0, and damage (especially AC and THAC0) to get an idea of how strong they are compared to the party. It might be a bit tricky coming up with good encounters from scratch if this is your first time running the system, especially for a mid- or high-level party as they will be after getting through three floors of the dungeon.
(Although I guess you could just set the party's level and give no XP, if you wanted to make things a bit easier on yourself.)

AD&D and Basic/BECMI are more compatible with each other than later editions. You could mostly run monsters from one edition in another with little problem, outside a few things like Morale values. This was sort of intentional, as Basic D&D was run alongside AD&D at the time. It's probably better to find material for the edition of your choice, but you could swap a monster from one of those to another if you really needed, with minor adjustments.

I've never played OD&D, or even seen material for it, so I have no clue about that one.

-

I will leave one last thing for you.
In order to determine if an attack hits in the TSR D&D versions, the formula is just:

d20 + Bonuses + AC >= THAC0

That's it. There's nothing more complex there. As for the player's roll (with the bonuses added) and then add the monster's AC. If it is equal to or greater than the character's THAC0, then it's a hit. This is why bad AC is positive number, and good AC is a negative number: it lowers the chances. Yes, this does mean that you'll need to figure out the last bits yourself, so keep the character THAC0 handy on your PC cheat-sheet. But it was designed so the DM can figure out a hit with a few bits of information and just the roll-plus-bonus from the player.

There are other ways to calculate it (including subtracting AC or figuring out if the roll is less than a value) but a lot of those overly confuse things and make it a lot harder, all in an attempt to compare the roll to a set AC value. It's ironically less math and less of a headache.

Telok
2021-03-13, 12:36 AM
For AD&D if you go with 1e there are charts for everything. Attacks, saves, etc.

You could lean into that. For the AD&D section use the DMG to get a random one, be sure to include a fountain. Don't bother rolling for the fountain effect, have it make them roll for psionic powers. Use the AD&D 1e ones in the DMG, the 2e handbook ones are meant for a dedicated pison class and have more fiddly nuisance that makes them a pain.

Other charts.. other charts.. Disease, random demon generator, reincarnate (ranger badger is pretty silly), find a treasure generator... Oh, make sure they get to cast fireball or lightning bolt in a small room. Let them land a slow spell on some enemies to see how good magic used to be. You could do haste but the year of aging calls for a (chart!) system shock roll. Though that could be your call to use reincarnate.

Oh, use the npc reactions. It'll shock them to meet some vampires or something that just decide to like them.

Bugbear
2021-03-13, 01:09 AM
I doubt this idea will work well. The editions of D&D are very different. And no matter the edition, you will still have the same modern "have only ever played 5E players".

Converting characters? Again, this might not go over well. A 5E player that loses their characters at will and encounter powers, plus the healing surges, might not be all that happy. Even just going to 3E with the player saying "wait, my character can only use my special power once a day?!?" Not to mention getting down to 2E where it is "So, my characters only ability is they can attack with a weapon?!?"

And a lot of things don't really transfer well without a lot of work.

And the massive game rule changes per edition really change the game. And if everyone is not on board with the different playstlye for each edition.

Just the simple 0E, 1E and 2E were much, much, much, much more about role playing ways around challenges with absolutely no mechanical framework or support is something that a lot of people don't get. In 3E and beyond when you encounter a challenge most players check their character sheet for an easy "overcome/bypass challenge power or ability. In older D&D a player does not look at their sheet and just wings it and tries something.

And this does not even scratch the surface of playstlyes that really have nothing to do with edition and are all about player and DM choices. Some DM's use even simple tactics that can overwhelm characters, even more so players that are not ready for it. Even a simple attack of the characters as they walk along a riverbed by archer goblins can be devastating. So in turn a lot of DMs would never do that.

A ton of all types of encounters can be instantly devastating, deadly or even game ending...and many DMs simply don't do them. It's not edition based, it's just a personal choice.

thirdlaw
2021-03-13, 03:27 AM
Some great info so far, I really appreciate it! I did already have a sense skimming through 2e and before that the transition from WotC to TSR was going to be the biggest paradigm shift, but I think that's part of what will make this fun for my group.

I will clarify, especially since Bugbear brought it up, that I've already run the idea by my players and they responded enthusiastically, so I don't think anyone will be bothered by me... regressing their characters. My group seems to be on board with a pretty lighthearted dungeon romp here.

Erikun- The XP problem is one I've been going back and forth on. On the one hand, it definitely feels like I should be including it as the non-regular progression in the TSR editions would be prime material for giving my players a confused laugh or two. On the other hand, you are absolutely right that I don't want to try and balance 3 levels of a dungeon for 3 different editions I've never run over multiple character levels. I was thinking of starting them at level 5 in 5e, and just keeping them around there for the whole dungeon (although maybe look what that much xp would get them in each edition, I haven't looked yet).
Also, thank you for the THAC0 explanation. I'll decide if I want to tell my group the easy way to think about it or the hard way depending on how distressed they are about the rest of the 2e transition, and what will be funniest.

Telok- Oh, I definitely need to play into the charts and tables for 1e, and I'll make sure there's a fountain. Again having mostly just skimmed the older books, I do think ramping up how bizarre the effects of the dungeon are getting as they approach the bottom will be good.

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for though, the specific quirks of the earlier games that stand out to people who have played them.

Khedrac
2021-03-13, 04:33 AM
If anything I would say do this in reverse. Start with OD&D and work your way up to 5th Ed.

Character conversion between editions varies from easy to nigh impossible, and for some steps the direction matters.

E.g. converting a Basic Elf to an AD&D (1) elf fighter/magic-user is easy
Converting an AD&D Elf Cleric/Thief to an Basic Elf is impossible (the concept isn't there).
Plus, as has been said the multi-classing rules are totally different between AD&D and 3rd and later.


I will leave one last thing for you.
In order to determine if an attack hits in the TSR D&D versions, the formula is just:

d20 + Bonuses + AC >= THAC0

That's it. There's nothing more complex there.
If you are keeping the level low this probably works, but if you are not ignore it - it's wrong (THAC0 was introduced quite late in TSR's versions).
Take BECM D&D and look at the attack charts, a net 20 needed to hit repeats 5 times (as does 30 and 40 etc.) before the numbers carry on climbing so using the suggested formula will make it harder for character to hit creatures they should be able to.
At the other end of the table, after 0 has repeated 5 times you get 1*, 2*, 3* etc. - and this is bonus damage done on a hit!
So, if the edition uses THAC0 then fine, if not check the tables and don't make assumptions.

Quertus
2021-03-13, 08:50 AM
This is a cool idea… but a difficult one.

It would be *easier* to convert forward… but that would be much less useful for your 5e group.

You want to *roast* each edition? Let's see what I can come up with.

5e

At the entrance, they encounter a corpse. The spirit of this corpse was a personal trainer in life. As they go through the dungeon, it tells them when to rest. (In earlier editions, it forces them to push on without rest instead).

4e

Because of a poorly worded phrase somewhere, allow them to use 3e and earlier characters in 4e.

Make sure to ham up how skill challenges ensure that everyone is playing the game… and then, when you have them roll a skill challenge, and add up *failures*, make it obvious that everyone helping the Rogue to pick locks, or assisting the Bard to talk to people or whatever, is not helping. Have the enemies fail hilariously because of this, too! Have the level boss unable to leave his room because his guards are too clumsy / have no arms / whatever, and so keep failing the rolls to open the door.

Have an enemy who sees the party - one that the party has fought in 4e several times, and has a good feel for their stats - respond by killing the lesser being that they are with, so that they can be a solo encounter, and thus get better stats.

3e

Have Pun-Pun greet them at the doors, checking their builds for infinite combos, but otherwise being a quite helpful little kobold. (Were I roasting myself, he would comment about "balance to the table"… and the first opponent would be an Animated Object - namely, a table).

A sign "this way lies death" or something, behind which are swarms and shadows. And maybe a lake with that **** crab. If they survive this optional gauntlet, give them an item useful in an earlier edition - Cloak of Elvenkind, Wand of Fireballs, or Rod of Wonder, maybe? Oh, strike that - absolutely a Necklace of Missiles! Because that will be *death* in earlier editions… *to the party*! Perhaps, if they search *really well*, give them a Deck of Many Things, too. (EDIT: make this *obviously* optional, by placing it literally off the room with the stairs down.)

Leveling in 3e is *fast*. The party should level several times here - enough to pick up missing skills & feats to qualify for prestige classes. Feel free (and encouraged) to *create* custom Prestige classes for your group.

What 3e really needs is a magic item shop. So add one. Make a friendly subterranean city connected to the dungeon, and let the PCs buy and sell loot.

2e

You need to let them level here so that they can "appreciate" the XP system.

Create their characters differently - some from the PH, some from Skills and Powers, and at least one as a custom class using the rules in the DMG. Some with "static" skills, others with "grows by level" skill points in Skills and Powers.

Assuming they have a divine caster, when they pray for spells, have the most similar local deity (because of course this level isn't on their home world) offer to fuel their powers. If they refuse, they are limited to recovering 2nd level spells and lower.

Constantly roll for surprise, roll reaction, etc.

For monsters that can't use them, roll treasure and magic items *after* the encounter.

If, after several encounters, one party member is *clearly* behind the curve, be very obvious in cheating the "random" treasure roll, to place something just for them. Even ask them their favorite color or something in the middle of rolling / describing the item, to press home the gag.

That Necklace of Missiles / the Fireball spell will now spread to fill a set volume. Feel free to cheat, and have the first fireball to explode in their faces only be a 2d6 one (maybe encourage that, with a room - the first combat - *filled* with bugs).

Item saving throws are also a thing. When they roll a "1" after taking a Fireball to the face - and include at least 1 monster and at least 1 (avoidable) trap that can force saves - have them check a corresponding item, too.

There are no Sorcerers / spontaneous casters. Make them need to create a spellbook; give them plenty of scrolls (and paper and ink) to do do.

Make **** up! Create custom monsters based on shows they'll recognize, as well as things you've made up whole cloth. For example…
This is clearly the abode of a Wizard. Research materials clutter the lab. (If they check, it's on diet, nutrition, and trolls). There is a wooden cabinet (locked).

If they open the lock (or break open the cabinet), KitKat-like candy bars will fly out, and begin breaking off pieces of themselves. They will attempt to shove these pieces down the characters' throats (HD 5+5, THAC0 15 (vs "touch AC", but with a -8 penalty for targeting the head), damage system shock roll or KO and "drowning", special: regenerate 3/round, alignment Chaotic Good). They don't understand that what they are doing is harmful.

This level should probably be about 20-50 encounters, with 1 "long rest", to let them appreciate 2e pacing.

earlier

You need to have let them level before now in order to let them appreciate that they won't earn XP here until they get the *gold* back to town. Maybe have an exposition NPC down here, lamenting that their companions died because of this really obvious fact of reality.

Have this NPC be a porter hireling. If you haven't before now, begin checking encumbrance as they clear the stairs (it can seem like a strange trap until they catch on).

Woe betide the party with a Barbarian :smallfrown: :smalleek: