Mind Sliver: why do people like it?

[Merudo]

It seems everyone out there agrees that Mind Sliver is one of the best cantrips, and I'm just not seeing it.

Mind Sliver does 1d6 damage, and substracts 1d4 from the next saving throw the target makes before the end of the caster's next turn.

A 1d4 penalty means that about 12.5%, Mind Sliver will make a difference and will turn a successful saving throw into a failed one (1 time in 8).

I just don't see why we should care about such a minute effect.

For example, a Fireball does on average 28 damage, and if resisted does only 14. So turning a successful saving throw into a failed one, will do 14 more damage to that creature.

So, on average Mind Sliver will increase the damage of the Fireball by 14 * 0.125 = 1.75. Meanwhile, Mind Sliver does on average 3 less damage at level 1-4 (6 at level 5-10) than Toll the Dead - so it's more far efficient to use Toll the Dead.

Of course it could be argued that the impact of Mind Sliver is greater for more powerful, higher level spells. However, if the party is throwing around high powered spell, is casting a Mind Sliver cantrip really the best use of your action? I would believe not.

It is true that Mind Sliver targets Intelligence, which is usually a poor saving throw for monsters. So I could see some use for the cantrip in a campaign where we are expect to fight a large quantity of dumb beasts (Tomb of Annihilation and all of its dinosaurs comes to mind). But in most settings, I can't imagine myself picking Mind Sliver.

[Ettina]

I care far less about pass vs fail for fireball than for a spell that does nothing if they succeed their save, like dominate person.

[Amnestic]

I care far less about pass vs fail for fireball than for a spell that does nothing if they succeed their save, like dominate person.

Essentially this. An enemy making their save against fireball is unfortunate, but expected (it's an AoE spell, some people are going to make the save). Things like Banishment or Hold Person are a lot more do-or-don't when you really want them to stick. Mind Sliver also works on repeated saving throws too, meaning it can help your spells stick for longer.

Also it's a nice "teamwork" cantrip, and team work makes the dream work :)

[diplomancer]

It seems everyone out there agrees that Mind Sliver is one of the best cantrips, and I'm just not seeing it.

Mind Sliver does 1d6 damage, and substracts 1d4 from the next saving throw the target makes before the end of the caster's next turn.

A 1d4 penalty means that about 12.5%, Mind Sliver will make a difference and will turn a successful saving throw into a failed one (1 time in 8).

I just don't see why we should care about such a minute effect.

For example, a Fireball does on average 28 damage, and if resisted does only 14. So turning a successful saving throw into a failed one, will do 14 more damage to that creature.

So, on average Mind Sliver will increase the damage of the Fireball by 14 * 0.125 = 1.75. Meanwhile, Mind Sliver does on average 3 less damage at level 1-4 (6 at level 5-10) than Toll the Dead - so it's more far efficient to use Toll the Dead.

Of course it could be argued that the impact of Mind Sliver is greater for more powerful, higher level spells. However, if the party is throwing around high powered spell, is casting a Mind Sliver cantrip really the best use of your action? I would believe not.

It is true that Mind Sliver targets Intelligence, which is usually a poor saving throw for monsters. So I could see some use for the cantrip in a campaign where we are expect to fight a large quantity of dumb beasts (Tomb of Annihilation and all of its dinosaurs comes to mind). But in most settings, I can't imagine myself picking Mind Sliver.

I can understand why you chose fireball as the example, since it's a damage spell, and you want to compare the expected damage of mind sliver with the expected damage of a pure damage cantrip like Toll the Dead.

That said, Fireball has 2 strikes against it for that sort of analysis:
1- it's not an "all or nothing" spell, so the difference between a fail and a pass on the saving throw is smaller
2- it's not single target, so a debuff to a single target is, comparatively, less effective

If you compare a tier 3 Toll the Dead with the expected extra damage from a tier 3 Mind Sliver applied to Desintegration, the expected damage of the 2 cantrips would be about the same IF they targeted similar saves (19.5 for Toll the Dead if the creature's injured vs 19.875 for Mind Sliver, a negligible difference); but since, as you've mentioned, Mind Sliver targets a weaker save, AND we gave maximum efficacy to Toll the Dead, then advantage would go to Mind Sliver.
(Not to mention the psychological, fun, factor of when the Mind Sliver effect IS enough to turn a Successful Dex Save against Disintegrate into a failure)

[ProsecutorGodot]

It's also psychic damage, one of the least resisted damage types in the game. Many cantrips use relatively common resisted damage types (poison, fire, cold, lightning, blame fiends) or in cases where they target a less resistant one target a strong save and/or are class specific (sacred flame, vicious mockery, radiant word)

Having a cantrip that targets an uncommon save and also deals a very rarely resisted damage type is good enough in the eyes of many. What it does on top of that is all a bonus.

[LumenPlacidum]

It is a reduction in the probability of success of 12.5 percentage points. This is not a reduction of 12.5% unless the original chance to save is 100%. If the target has a 25% chance to save, then it drops to a 12.5% chance, which is 50% lower. Not only that, but it combines with disadvantage very favorably.

Let's say you're level 9 with a save DC of 17. A creature with a +4 to save tries. That creature would normally have a 40% chance of success. With a malus of 1d4, this chance becomes 27.5%. Failure is 1.208333 times more likely, or 20.8333% more likely. The smaller the original chance of success, the greater the effect. Only in the WORST case, is it merely 1.125 times more likely to fail.

The Mathematics is that of conditional probability. The effect is much greater than you think!

[Kane0]

INT saves are rare
Psychic damage isnt resisted much
The penalty stacks with disadvantage and even on its own works with recurring save effects

60 foot range is about average and enough to get the job done but its also a verbal-only component which is also neat.

Edit: and of course ot works better with save-or-X type spells rather than damage spells, but a failed save is a failed save. Bless is widely loved for the reverse effect (given it works on attacks and saves)

[Lord Vukodlak]

Essentially this. An enemy making their save against fireball is unfortunate, but expected (it's an AoE spell, some people are going to make the save). Things like Banishment or Hold Person are a lot more do-or-don't when you really want them to stick. Mind Sliver also works on repeated saving throws too, meaning it can help your spells stick for longer.

Also it's a nice "teamwork" cantrip, and team work makes the dream work :)
This, in addition being a cantrip a sorcerer could quicken it then follow it up with a higher level spell.


It is a reduction in the probability of success of 12.5 percentage points. This is not a reduction of 12.5% unless the original chance to save is 100%. If the target has a 25% chance to save, then it drops to a 12.5% chance, which is 50% lower. Not only that, but it combines with disadvantage very favorably.

Let's say you're level 9 with a save DC of 17. A creature with a +4 to save tries. That creature would normally have a 40% chance of success. With a malus of 1d4, this chance becomes 27.5%. Failure is 1.208333 times more likely, or 20.8333% more likely. The smaller the original chance of success, the greater the effect. Only in the WORST case, is it merely 1.125 times more likely to fail.

The Mathematics is that of conditional probability. The effect is much greater than you think!
Also this.

[sithlordnergal]

As others have said, Mind Sliver works best for single target, save or such spells like Hold Person, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, ect.. All of those are exceptionally powerful control spells, but they also provide a save and don't do anything if the target succeeds with their save. Mind Sliver is going to be pretty pointless for a big AoE like Fireball, Lightningbolt, and the like. That said, Mind Sliver has some special combo potential with the Bane spell given the two effects stack and would cause a creature to have -2d4 to their saves. This can be a pretty big deal, especially if you have another caster in the party, or someone that can apply debuffs like a Monk or Battlemaster Fighter.

[stoutstien]

MS also works well for maintaining an effect with repeating saves every round once you stack disadvantage on as well.

[fbelanger]

It gives the feeling of doing a smart combo!

[JackPhoenix]

This, in addition being a cantrip a sorcerer could quicken it then follow it up with a higher level spell.

That's now how it works. If you quicken a cantrip, you can't cast levelled spell. Not much of a difference, considering Quicken's cost isn't based on the spell's level like Twinned, but may be relevant.

[diplomancer]

That's now how it works. If you quicken a cantrip, you can't cast levelled spell. Not much of a difference, considering Quicken's cost isn't based on the spell's level like Twinned, but may be relevant.

True; but the way it DOES work is actually more effective; you cast the cantrip as an action and, IF it works, you immediately after quicken the leveled spell. If it fails, you can choose to do something else with your bonus action, either quicken a different spell or do something else entirely.

[Keravath]

It is a sorcerer cantrip so it works really well with quicken. Cast mind sliver as an action then quicken a spell like hold person which will then be more difficult for the target to resist. The cantrip also targets int saves which is one of the less common ones for Monsters/NPCs. It also stacks with bane and anything causing disadvantage on the saving throw.

To supplement the comments above ... lets look at some examples.

You cast a DC15 spell against a target with a +2 - Mind sliver will do some d6 damage and subtract 1d4 from its next save until the end of your next turn.

DC15 with a +2 = 13 needed to roll = 40% success.
Mind sliver changes this to 25% each of 14, 15, 16, 17 = 35%, 30%, 25%, 20% = 27.5%

Which is a 12.5% absolute change but the change is relative to base 40% success - it actually reduces the chance of making the saving throw by 31% in this case on average.

If the target number needed was 15 - 30% chance of success - Mind sliver reduces the chance of making the save by 41% since after mind sliver the success chance is 17.5%.

The only time Mind sliver gives 12.5% change to failing the saving throw is for a DC of 1 where the chance of success is 100% and mind sliver creates a 12.5% chance of failure.

Since DCs and associated chance of failure get higher as characters level up - Mind Sliver has a proportionately greater effect.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

IMO it's main use is in breaking concentration.
If the target failed the int save it needs to roll con save for concentration with -1d4.
Some of the most annoying enemies have a +9 or better in con save which means you need to do 22+ damage to make them roll a con save(some parties can't do that).
Mind sliver make it possible for them to fail even with less than 20 damage.

You can also use it like bane with a different save.

[borg286]

It is a sorcerer cantrip so it works really well with quicken. Cast mind sliver as an action then quicken a spell like hold person which will then be more difficult for the target to resist.



Sadly it doesn't work that way



A spell cast with a Bonus Action is especially swift. You must use a Bonus Action on Your Turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a Bonus Action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a Casting Time of 1 action.

Thus if you quicken Mind Sliver then the only thing you can cast after that is a cantrips. Quicken only allows a non-cantrip and cantrips to be cast on 1 turn if the non-cantrip is cast first. This forces Mind Sliver to be paired with someone else's attacks, or used in conjunction with spells where foes make their save when their turn starts up, like sickening radiance.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Sadly it doesn't work that way

Yes, but...

True; but the way it DOES work is actually more effective; you cast the cantrip as an action and, IF it works, you immediately after quicken the leveled spell. If it fails, you can choose to do something else with your bonus action, either quicken a different spell or do something else entirely.

As mentioned by diplomancer above, all you have to do is quicken the leveled spell instead.

It's actually quite good, since it's a cantrip it automatically pairs with existing bonus action spells and allows a Sorcerer to quicken any action spell.

[Composer99]

I just don't see why we should care about such a minute effect.


Others have discussed more apt spell choices, and I am sure your maths could be quibbled with in more detail (comparing the results based on spell save DCs and typical saving throw bonuses for different creature types, say).

I have one maths-related counterpoint, and I'd also like to point out the wider principle that small effects make big differences.

Maths-related: For most monsters beyond a certain (low) CR, the difference in saving throw outcomes will be greater (possibly even far greater) than the impact a spell like toll the dead will have on their current hit points compared to mind sliver.

On principle: We live in a world where smaller, often much smaller, differences between outcomes than the difference between saving throw outcomes you have calculated, have a big impact.

Most examples I can think of are disproportionately serious when compared to playing elfgames, though. Some reasonable examples might be gambling and sports. I expect most hands of, say, poker, are decided on smaller margins of "player hand value" than the difference mind sliver makes to any given saving throw. I would also expect that most basketball games, say, are decided on a smaller difference between the opposing teams' ratios of balls thrown at the net versus baskets scored.

All that is to say that we do, in fact, have good reason to find "such a minute" effect worthwhile.

[Valmark]

Sadly it doesn't work that way



Thus if you quicken Mind Sliver then the only thing you can cast after that is a cantrips. Quicken only allows a non-cantrip and cantrips to be cast on 1 turn if the non-cantrip is cast first. This forces Mind Sliver to be paired with someone else's attacks, or used in conjunction with spells where foes make their save when their turn starts up, like sickening radiance.

That doesn't establish a set order- not being able to cast another spell except for an action cantrip doesn't mean the cantrip can't be casted first.

[condonzack]

Its also cool.

[borg286]

Yes, but...


As mentioned by diplomancer above, all you have to do is quicken the leveled spell instead.

It's actually quite good, since it's a cantrip it automatically pairs with existing bonus action spells and allows a Sorcerer to quicken any action spell.
Ah, I misunderstood. That makes more sense. I was under the impression that if you cast any spell, either as a bonus action or main action, then the only thing you could cast after that was a cantrip. Makes more sense now.

[sophontteks]

A 1d4 penalty means that about 12.5%, Mind Sliver will make a difference and will turn a successful saving throw into a failed one (1 time in 8).

So, if I have a 75% chance to land a spell, and mind sliver increases this by *only* 12.5%, I'm now looking at a 87.5% chance to land. We're cutting our chance to fail in half here. For most practical purposes this spell is putting saves much closer to being guaranteed. Casters normally have high DCs with their spells already, so this is the case more often then not. It is especially nasty when used in tandem with another caster. Where one sets the target up, and the other lands a CC spell. With Sliver targeting intelligence it has a really great chance of landing itself too.

The cost of failing a spell is pretty high. It's basically losing a turn doing nothing and you lose your spell slot on top of it.

[HPisBS]

Also

...
Of course it could be argued that the impact of Mind Sliver is greater for more powerful, higher level spells. However, if the party is throwing around high powered spell, is casting a Mind Sliver cantrip really the best use of your action? I would believe not.
...

You're comparing action economy tradeoffs with resource tradeoffs. Even if everything else were equal, the ability to use a resource-free option to make your expensive resource (a high lvl spell slot) more reliable alone makes it valuable. Especially if you're running low on spell slots.


Ah, I misunderstood. That makes more sense. I was under the impression that if you cast any spell, either as a bonus action or main action, then the only thing you could cast after that was a cantrip. Makes more sense now.

I'm pretty sure all it really means is that you can't cast two leveled spells on the same turn.




Also it's a nice "teamwork" cantrip, and team work makes the dream work :)
This, in addition being a cantrip a sorcerer could quicken it then follow it up with a higher level spell.


Or, be a Sorcerer 3 / whatever X and set up your own things. Sorc / Monk to quicken Mind Sliver, then Stunning Strike. If max lvl, then Shadow Sorc 3 / Assassin 17 to help the target fail its Con save and double your crit's damage. And so on.


That said, there are far more efficient ways to get this kind of effect, like Unsettling Words from Eloquence Bard 3. Though you'd lose the psychic damage, it'd be more efficient (1 BI instead of 2 SP) and more reliable (not dependent on a failed Int save). ... Honestly, this is just another reason why Eloquence is OP lol.

If you really wanna munchkin it up, you can start with Bane. A failed Cha save there means the following Int save against Mind Spike has a -1d4 penalty. Then follow that up with Unsettling Words, which doesn't require a save at all, so Mind Spike's rider remains active. The next big thing (Stunning Strike, Death Strike, Quivering Palm, Feeblemind, etc) would then have a -(2d4+1d_) penalty (average of between -8 and -11, depending on the Bard's lvl).

Edit:
Seriously. A -8 penalty basically invalidates even high CR enemies' save proficiencies... and this can be online at lvl 3! (With the right party.) At higher levels, if you set up a Quivering Palm like this, it means insta-kills are all but guaranteed to succeed.

[x3n0n]

I'm pretty sure all it really means is that you can't cast two leveled spells on the same turn.

One other restriction: if you have a cantrip that *must* be cast as a bonus action, it still (RAW) prevents you from using your action to cast a non-cantrip spell.

For (a silly?) example, consider a hypothetical Druid or Nature Cleric with Polearm Master. He might want to Bless/Entangle/Faerie Fire and Shillelagh in round 1 so as to be able to Attack and bonus action attack in round 2, but that's technically disallowed by RAW. (BA Shillelagh means no casting of a leveled spell with the main action.)

Shillelagh and Magic Stone seem like the most likely culprits.

[Contrast]

I'm pretty sure all it really means is that you can't cast two leveled spells on the same turn.


You can cast Fireball, get Counterspell'd and then Counterspell that Counterspell without falling foul of the rule.

A wizard/fighter2 could also Action surge and quite happily Fireball twice a turn.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also it's a nice "teamwork" cantrip, and team work makes the dream work :) That's part of why I like it. The bigger the party, the better the chance someone else's save DC isn't met by the enemy's roll. It effectively makes your ally's spell save DC increase by 1 to 4, which is like raising their casting stat +2, +4, +6, or +8 ... :smalleek: for that one roll.

If the target has a 25% chance to save, then it drops to a 12.5% chance, which is 50% lower. Not only that, but it combines with disadvantage very favorably. That too.

IMO it's main use is in breaking concentration. I hadn't thought of that as a primary use but now that you mention it that's an added benefit.

[Witty Username]

It seems everyone out there agrees that Mind Sliver is one of the best cantrips, and I'm just not seeing it.

Mind Sliver does 1d6 damage, and substracts 1d4 from the next saving throw the target makes before the end of the caster's next turn.

A 1d4 penalty means that about 12.5%, Mind Sliver will make a difference and will turn a successful saving throw into a failed one (1 time in 8).

I just don't see why we should care about such a minute effect.

For example, a Fireball does on average 28 damage, and if resisted does only 14. So turning a successful saving throw into a failed one, will do 14 more damage to that creature.

So, on average Mind Sliver will increase the damage of the Fireball by 14 * 0.125 = 1.75. Meanwhile, Mind Sliver does on average 3 less damage at level 1-4 (6 at level 5-10) than Toll the Dead - so it's more far efficient to use Toll the Dead.

Of course it could be argued that the impact of Mind Sliver is greater for more powerful, higher level spells. However, if the party is throwing around high powered spell, is casting a Mind Sliver cantrip really the best use of your action? I would believe not.

It is true that Mind Sliver targets Intelligence, which is usually a poor saving throw for monsters. So I could see some use for the cantrip in a campaign where we are expect to fight a large quantity of dumb beasts (Tomb of Annihilation and all of its dinosaurs comes to mind). But in most settings, I can't imagine myself picking Mind Sliver.

If you are using something like slow, hypnotic pattern, tasha's hideous laughter or web a failed saving throw could be a death sentence and mind sliver makes it more likely to succeed. Damage isn't really what people are thinking about. It does do psychic so it is reliable damage.

[Luccan]

As someone who has recently become more interested in running truly specialized wizards, it's nice to have an enchantment cantrip that does damage. And also does the thing you'd expect it to do.

[Segev]

Whammy a victim of a spell that lets them save to end upon taking damage, and they are average 12.5% less likely to save from the damage it deals than they are from a firebolt or toll the dead. So they stay locked up and you still dealt damage.

[shipiaozi]

People massively overestimate the value of spell DC, mind sliver is a horrible cantrip and wizard/sorcerer should not use them.

[ProsecutorGodot]

People massively overestimate the value of spell DC, mind sliver is a horrible cantrip and wizard/sorcerer should not use them.
We all know you've got your own idea on what way a spellcaster (you had a very unique Wizard guide that seemed tailor made for Abjurer despite not including a mention to it) should be played, however it isn't the only way. Save DC spells can be incredibly powerful, and this cantrip is a good way to maintain an ongoing one or push for a failure on the next one.

[KorvinStarmast]

People massively overestimate the value of spell DC, mind sliver is a horrible cantrip and wizard/sorcerer should not use them.
Unsupported statement is unsupported. Or, as the Dude might say: that's your opinion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c).

[MrStabby]

I think it's the opportunity cost.

Cantrips are there for when you want to save your resources for later or if they run out. It makes sense to compare it to the other options one could take under those same circumstances.

The point is, that most of them are not great. We are talking about someting like firebolt at d10 damage per tier as an action rather than an attack action from a palading doing 2(d10+d8+5+2) damage. The support element of the spell has to be worth 2 damage per tier not 34 damage.

The reason it is popular is because most of the alternatives are similarly low damage compared to what the damage dealers are actually doing. If you get enemies that go prone when fighting at range or you use cover rules then this can get even better.

It comes down to asking what the odds are of something making a difference - another 4 points of damage likely to make the difference between them having a turn again and hitting the party or not? It it going to change the outcome of the fight? Whereas if you cast it to help your buddy get banishement to stick, what are the chances that it will make a difference there - it is substantially more likely that it will turn a fight around, not only turning a potential defeat into a victory but also just cutting down on the number of resources that need to be consumed.

[stoutstien]

Unsupported statement is unsupported. Or, as the Dude might say: that's your opinion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c).

Not to mention MS works on all ST and not just spells. Trading a handful of damage for a better SS or BM trip taking a flying target down isn't to be taken lightly.

[Bloodcloud]

So first, Shipaozi's ideas of spell DC are very much his own.

Basically it's a combo maker. Int save is often low, psychic is rarely resisted, and it makes it easier to stick effect on monsters. It can stack with disadvantage, Bane, and unsettling words. You can use it to help the monk land his stunning strike, to land (and keep) hold person so the paladin and rogue and bard can crit like no tomorrow.

There are some awesome applications, but mostly if you have friends who like to inflict crippling saving throws. Using it to increase chances of landing your own spell also delays your big spell, which makes it a lot less valuable, and using it for save for half damage spell is mostly a waste.

[Frogreaver]

Yes, but...


As mentioned by diplomancer above, all you have to do is quicken the leveled spell instead.

It's actually quite good, since it's a cantrip it automatically pairs with existing bonus action spells and allows a Sorcerer to quicken any action spell.

If we are talking Quicken - I don't know why you wouldn't just heighten instead of quicken. It's 1 more sorcerer point for a guaranteed disadvantage effect.


So, if I have a 75% chance to land a spell, and mind sliver increases this by *only* 12.5%, I'm now looking at a 87.5% chance to land. We're cutting our chance to fail in half here. For most practical purposes this spell is putting saves much closer to being guaranteed. Casters normally have high DCs with their spells already, so this is the case more often then not. It is especially nasty when used in tandem with another caster. Where one sets the target up, and the other lands a CC spell. With Sliver targeting intelligence it has a really great chance of landing itself too.

The cost of failing a spell is pretty high. It's basically losing a turn doing nothing and you lose your spell slot on top of it.

I see nearly no use case for using it on your own spells. Delaying a control spell a turn has a huge downside even if doing so has a decent chance of increasing the chance it lands.

Using Quicken to cast your own control spell after landing this instead of heighten seems like an even worse plan.

And as you noted it has it's own chance to hit, meaning that there's some chance you get no added benefit out of using it.

That said the spell isn't useless, it pairs great with allies saving throw spells/abilities. It also helps break concentration better than other cantrips. Also, the difference in damage of this compared to firebolt isn't bad as this should hit quite a bit more often.


People massively overestimate the value of spell DC, mind sliver is a horrible cantrip and wizard/sorcerer should not use them.

I would highly consider mind blank as my primary offensive cantrip. It isn't that far down in damage, likely hits more often, likely isn't resisted and has an additional useful effect in certain situations.

[nickl_2000]

I have it on my current Arcane Trickster/War Wizard for a few reasons.

1) I wanted a DC cantrip to use against someone who had good cover or a very high AC
2) I have other casters in my party with save or suck abilities and any boost is good, even if it's small
3) It does psychic damage, something that is rarely resisted
4) It actually boosts itself. Once you hit once, you make it more likely to hit again
5) It forces an INT save, something most creatures are weaker at

[Frogreaver]

I have it on my current Arcane Trickster/War Wizard for a few reasons.

1) I wanted a DC cantrip to use against someone who had good cover or a very high AC
2) I have other casters in my party with save or suck abilities and any boost is good, even if it's small
3) It does psychic damage, something that is rarely resisted
4) It actually boosts itself. Once you hit once, you make it more likely to hit again
5) It forces an INT save, something most creatures are weaker at

I hadn't considered 4. It is another great point to pick it over other cantrips.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not to mention MS works on all ST and not just spells. Trading a handful of damage for a better SS or BM trip taking a flying target down isn't to be taken lightly. Yes, the teamwork aspect of that cantrip is to me its finest feature. I play as a member of a team ...

I have it on my current Arcane Trickster/War Wizard for a few reasons.

1) I wanted a DC cantrip to use against someone who had good cover or a very high AC
2) I have other casters in my party with save or suck abilities and any boost is good, even if it's small
3) It does psychic damage, something that is rarely resisted
4) It actually boosts itself. Once you hit once, you make it more likely to hit again
5) It forces an INT save, something most creatures are weaker at *golf clap* nice application of the tool there.

[ProsecutorGodot]

If we are talking Quicken - I don't know why you wouldn't just heighten instead of quicken. It's 1 more sorcerer point for a guaranteed disadvantage effect.

You can't heighten a spell that takes an Action to cast normally and still combo with Mind Sliver on the same turn. Heighten is only an option when you're using someone else's Mind Sliver or your own on a following turn. Using quickened is meant to guarantee that another saving throw doesn't interfere with your planned follow up.

With proper coordination, you can also do both. This is meant to emphasize the spells versatility.


Using Quicken to cast your own control spell after landing this instead of heighten seems like an even worse plan.

And as you noted it has it's own chance to hit, meaning that there's some chance you get no added benefit out of using it.
It's overall better than it would be if you simply cast your control spell first, it gives you the option of choice if Mind Sliver fails you can quicken a spell that wasn't reliant on its success.


I would highly consider mind blank as my primary offensive cantrip. It isn't that far down in damage, likely hits more often, likely isn't resisted and has an additional useful effect in certain situations.
I'm assuming you mean Mind Sliver.

[Bloodcloud]

Yes, the teamwork aspect of that cantrip is to me its finest feature. I play as a member of a team ...


Seriously, the optimisation threads so rarely mention how to use your tools to help other party members. It's all about having all the parts of the combo on the same character, which often requires VERY costly compromise.

Lots of great, impactfull applications mentionned here.

[Aimeryan]

You can't heighten a spell that takes an Action to cast normally and still combo with Mind Sliver on the same turn. Heighten is only an option when you're using someone else's Mind Sliver or your own on a following turn. Using quickened is meant to guarantee that another saving throw doesn't interfere with your planned follow up.

They mean use Heightened instead of Mind Sliver + Quickened. Heightened is a fair bit more powerful on average, so the argument is whether or not that is worth the extra Sorcery Point. Spells with saves that are already a Bonus Action (only Dragon's Breath with Sorcerer, but Multiclass is a thing) would not require Quickened at all, so Heightened could be used with Mind Sliver even by the same caster on the same turn.

Furthermore, Mind Sliver need not come from you. I am somewhat surprised no one has mentioned the idea of hiring a few wizard apprentices to just spam Mind Sliver for you to take advantage of. It would be one of the most useful cantrips a low level caster could use to help a high level caster ally.

[ProsecutorGodot]

They mean use Heightened instead of Mind Sliver + Quickened. Heightened is a fair bit more powerful on average, so the argument is whether or not that is worth the extra Sorcery Point. Spells that are already a Bonus Action (only Dragon's Breath with Sorcerer, but Multiclass is a thing) would not require Quickened at all, so Heightened could be used with Mind Sliver even by the same caster on the same turn.
I got that much, which is why I specified that Quickened is for (at least in the vast majority of cases) single turn strategies, the point of discussion at the time. If you start branching into multi-turn strategies of course Heightened would be better, but it could also introduce variables that prevent you from making use of your Mind Sliver in the way you may have intended at all.

[Aimeryan]

I got that much, which is why I specified that Quickened is for (at least in the vast majority of cases) single turn strategies, the point of discussion at the time. If you start branching into multi-turn strategies of course Heightened would be better, but it could also introduce variables that prevent you from making use of your Mind Sliver in the way you may have intended at all.

No, they are talking about Heightened instead of Mind Sliver + Quickened - as in, you don't use Mind Sliver, at all. So two options:

Mind Sliver + Quickened [Spell]

Or

Heightened [Spell]

The Heightened option is more likely to succeed, however, it costs 1 more Sorcery Point (and you lose a d6 of damage). Preferably, you would have Mind Sliver come from something else that had little else they could do - like a cheap apprentice or three.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I use it as a wizard all the time as a cheap, reliable control method any time I'm busy concentrating on a buff. The rest of the party has all kinds of toys that work better when the enemy can't save. It's an easy way to help them achieve that.

[ProsecutorGodot]

No, they are talking about Heightened instead of Mind Sliver + Quickened - as in, you don't use Mind Sliver, at all. So two options:

Mind Sliver + Quickened [Spell]

Or

Heightened [Spell]
Alright, arguing for Mind Sliver + Quickened was never meant to say that it was the best method for denying a save, only that it did work as one, based on the previous comments believing that it didn't. The point was that it works, which is probably what caused my confusion in having a response meant to say "but this is better".

This could also just be a personal bias, but I've seen more Sorcerer with Quickened than Heightened. Heightened might be a little underappreciated, its use cases are much more limited compared to Quickened.


The Heightened option is more likely to succeed, however, it costs 1 more Sorcery Point (and you lose a d6 of damage). Preferably, you would have Mind Sliver come from something else that had little else they could do - like a cheap apprentice or three.
And for as long as they're alive/willing to work with you it would be fantastic. Hirelings don't come in infinite supply, but of course it would be preferable to have them use Mind Sliver instead. It's an even stronger case for the spell that comparatively unskilled spellcasters are still likely to see success using this spell because of its targeted save.

[sophontteks]

Heightened is just too expensive. Shadow sorcerers have access to a much superior version for the same cost.

Speaking of. I waa considering using mind sliver on subsequent rounds after my shadow sorcerer's nauseating radiance + hounds combo to make sure they can't escape it. Tasha's mind whip is also a good new followup there.

Blindness/deafness with mind slivet also nice to help them stay blind.

[borg286]

Seriously, the optimisation threads so rarely mention how to use your tools to help other party members. It's all about having all the parts of the combo on the same character, which often requires VERY costly compromise.

Lots of great, impactfull applications mentionned here.
My Aberrant Mind build in my sig has a huge section dedicated to how to enable your allies. I agree that the forum focuses on being a silo, partly because you open a pandora's box when you assume any ally uses spell Y so you can use spell X. But between the silo and team optimization there is a space for figuring out how to capitalize on synergies that your team mates bring to the table. Mind Sliver is a great spell as setup. I'm thankful that in TCoE it opens the doors for people to swap out cantrips, which your fellow players can do to help set you up.

[Cikomyr2]

I have a Warlock with Summon Undead.

Mind Sliver + Fear Attack by the Ghost every round is proving to be an effective combo. Or I can always Mind Sliver + Con Save with a Zombie.

[Frogreaver]

No, they are talking about Heightened instead of Mind Sliver + Quickened - as in, you don't use Mind Sliver, at all. So two options:

Mind Sliver + Quickened [Spell]

Or

Heightened [Spell]

The Heightened option is more likely to succeed, however, it costs 1 more Sorcery Point (and you lose a d6 of damage). Preferably, you would have Mind Sliver come from something else that had little else they could do - like a cheap apprentice or three.

Thank you.


Heightened is just too expensive. Shadow sorcerers have access to a much superior version for the same cost.

Speaking of. I waa considering using mind sliver on subsequent rounds after my shadow sorcerer's nauseating radiance + hounds combo to make sure they can't escape it. Tasha's mind whip is also a good new followup there.

Blindness/deafness with mind slivet also nice to help them stay blind.

I agree heightened is expensive but 2 sorcery points is expensive as well. Especially when the effectiveness of the 3 on heightened is far superior the 2 for quicken + mind sliver.


Alright, arguing for Mind Sliver + Quickened was never meant to say that it was the best method for denying a save, only that it did work as one, based on the previous comments believing that it didn't. The point was that it works, which is probably what caused my confusion in having a response meant to say "but this is better".

And saying that heightened was better was never meant to say that using quicken + mind sliver wouldn't work. The point was that it's a stretch to list something as a pro when there as an alternative path just as accessible for the same class/subclass that accomplishes that goal better.


This could also just be a personal bias, but I've seen more Sorcerer with Quickened than Heightened. Heightened might be a little underappreciated, its use cases are much more limited compared to Quickened.

If the case you are making is that mind sliver + quicken can give you a poor man's heighten while still allowing you more flexibility in quickening other spells then I think that's a solid point - but it wasn't how you originally presented it.

[Aimeryan]

Something to note about disadvantage vs -d4; at the extremes the -d4 is preferable. For example, lets say the target had to roll a 20 to succeed on the saving throw; Disadvantage now means they need two d20s - a 0.25% chance. However, a roll of even 1 on the d4 means they automatically fail - a 0% chance. This works even up with a 17 to succeed, if a 4 is rolled on the d4. Likewise, if they only need to roll a 2 to succeed, then changing that to a 4+ is more effective than Disadvantage.

Disadvantage works best around the middle - so if they need to roll an 11 then Disadvantage is is roughly equivalent to adding +5 to the DC.

I'm not sure where the cut off points are, and of course, the Disadvantage costs an extra Sorcery Point. However, Mind Sliver requires you hit with that first, albeit, against an almost always weak save. In most cases the Heightened probably wins out, but if you are targeting a known weak save with your highest DC spells then it may just be that MS + Quickened is more/equally effective and cheaper.

Edit:

https://i.imgur.com/OK8vRBC.png

This is a graph of rolling at least the number specified for each a straight d20, Mind Sliver'd, and Heightened. Take note that Mind Sliver (+Quickened) is cheaper than Heightened and adds some damage, so it wins out even in roughly equal chances.

At lower values Mind Sliver easily wins out, however, if an enemy only needs to roll a 3 to save I would pick another tactic (like a different save, or an attack roll, or another enemy) - so not sure how valuable that really is.
At 18 and 19 the two are roughly similar chance, but the lower cost of Mind Sliver wins it. At 20, Mind Sliver wins regardless. At 17 it is more arguable, since Heightened wins significantly, however, both are still fairly low chances overall and the cost is also significant.
At non-extreme values Heightened clearly wins. Given the choice of which save you target, I would expect the enemy to need to roll 12-15 most of the time, so this is Heightened's backyard.

That said, who gets Heightened before level 10? Mind Sliver is notable for existing in this space, even if it is mostly a poor man's version in later tiers.

[ProsecutorGodot]

If the case you are making is that mind sliver + quicken can give you a poor man's heighten while still allowing you more flexibility in quickening other spells then I think that's a solid point - but it wasn't how you originally presented it.

I don't see the difference, if you have quicken and you regularly use it there's nothing stopping you from also casting a cantrip.

You yourself said that you would consider Mind Sliver as a damaging cantrip, it's more of a coincidence that it will often combo with spells you took to quicken.

[nickl_2000]

Just thought I would bring up one more interesting thing about Mind Sliver. The rider on it reducing the next save by 1d4 applies to concentration saves taken immediately after the damage. I make a cleric lose concentration due to the 1d4 reduction last night :smallbiggrin:

[Noodz]

It's also important to note that the opportunity cost of a single cantrip is very small. If you already are a wizard, sorceror or warlock, just how much are you giving up by taking it? After taking a pure damage cantrip, mage hand, and either minor illusion or prestigitation, you're not missing a lot. Maybe shape water, but even then 5 cantrips is well within these classes reach.

[Snails]

It's also important to note that the opportunity cost of a single cantrip is very small. If you already are a wizard, sorceror or warlock, just how much are you giving up by taking it? After taking a pure damage cantrip, mage hand, and either minor illusion or prestigitation, you're not missing a lot. Maybe shape water, but even then 5 cantrips is well within these classes reach.

Bingo.

If you believe you would more often want to cast Firebolt or Toll, yeah, I believe you. But there are many many non-rare scenarios where the damaging cantrips basically suck for the tactical situation, where this save effect is much more important than a few points damage.

The real question is whether your tactics are improved by taking this one Cantrip rather than some other Cantrip. You are definitely going to take at least one damaging Cantrip. Are you going to take a second? Then surely you should consider a less common damage type, and Mind Sliver looks very attractive now.

If there are other PCs in the party likely to do Hold Person, Banishment, Stunning Strike, etc., this is a resource cheap way to improve the effectiveness of fellow PCs. As already mentioned, there are ways to use Mind Sliver if you are the only party caster, too.

[MaxWilson]

It seems everyone out there agrees that Mind Sliver is one of the best cantrips, and I'm just not seeing it.

Mind Sliver does 1d6 damage, and substracts 1d4 from the next saving throw the target makes before the end of the caster's next turn.

A 1d4 penalty means that about 12.5%, Mind Sliver will make a difference and will turn a successful saving throw into a failed one (1 time in 8).

I just don't see why we should care about such a minute effect.

For example, a Fireball does on average 28 damage, and if resisted does only 14. So turning a successful saving throw into a failed one, will do 14 more damage to that creature.

So, on average Mind Sliver will increase the damage of the Fireball by 14 * 0.125 = 1.75. Meanwhile, Mind Sliver does on average 3 less damage at level 1-4 (6 at level 5-10) than Toll the Dead - so it's more far efficient to use Toll the Dead.

Of course it could be argued that the impact of Mind Sliver is greater for more powerful, higher level spells. However, if the party is throwing around high powered spell, is casting a Mind Sliver cantrip really the best use of your action? I would believe not.

It is true that Mind Sliver targets Intelligence, which is usually a poor saving throw for monsters. So I could see some use for the cantrip in a campaign where we are expect to fight a large quantity of dumb beasts (Tomb of Annihilation and all of its dinosaurs comes to mind). But in most settings, I can't imagine myself picking Mind Sliver.

Well, you're not wrong. It's strange to see people praising Mind Sliver while ignoring Bend Luck (Wild Sorc 6) which has an even better information economy (use AFTER seeing the roll) and action economy (reaction, not action).

I think it comes down to (1) rare and expensive spells (such as getting more efficiency out of Planar Binding), (2) targeting Int save means that Mind Sliver's damage is higher than its d6 makes it look, so the saving throw penalty is just bonus, (3) low expectations for cantrips.

[Amnestic]

Well, you're not wrong. It's strange to see people praising Mind Sliver while ignoring Bend Luck (Wild Sorc 6) which has an even better information economy (use AFTER seeing the roll) and action economy (reaction, not action).


It also costs sorcery points to do - basically costing a 1st level spell slot or a metamagic use (on average, some are 1, some are 3). Mind Sliver's most costly on the action economy but less so on resource expenditure. In tier 1-2 where most people play, it's a not insignificant amount of your points/day.

Also I think wild magic sorc gets overlooked in general for other reasons, so bend luck isn't often in people's minds.

[MaxWilson]

Furthermore, Mind Sliver need not come from you. I am somewhat surprised no one has mentioned the idea of hiring a few wizard apprentices to just spam Mind Sliver for you to take advantage of. It would be one of the most useful cantrips a low level caster could use to help a high level caster ally.

If you can do this, make sure to hire Diviners.

[greenstone]

As a mean, evil, nasty GM (my preciousssssss)…

I'd have a particularly bad foe use it on a downed PC. One failed death save and a penalty to the next one.

It seems like a great way to showcase "this NPC is particularly mean and nasty."

As a player, i'd treat the saving throw penalty as pure icing, and just use the cantrip for some damage that nothing is ever going to resist, gated by the weakest saving throw.

[strangebloke]

Well, you're not wrong. It's strange to see people praising Mind Sliver while ignoring Bend Luck (Wild Sorc 6) which has an even better information economy (use AFTER seeing the roll) and action economy (reaction, not action).

I think it comes down to (1) rare and expensive spells (such as getting more efficiency out of Planar Binding), (2) targeting Int save means that Mind Sliver's damage is higher than its d6 makes it look, so the saving throw penalty is just bonus, (3) low expectations for cantrips.

I think most people agree Bend Luck is great, its just a big opportunity cost since it means both being a sorcerer AND being a wild sorcerer. Picking up a cantrip is comparatively cheap.

[MaxWilson]

I think most people agree Bend Luck is great, its just a big opportunity cost since it means both being a sorcerer AND being a wild sorcerer. Picking up a cantrip is comparatively cheap.

You're probably right about Bend Luck. I was a much bigger fan of the Wild Mage back when Divine Soul wasn't an option, but it's hard to argue with a spell list twice as big as a normal sorc's spell list. I still love Bend Luck though--it's sort of like +5 to the casting stat of everyone in the whole party.

But yes, the opportunity cost is high.

[sophontteks]

You're probably right about Bend Luck. I was a much bigger fan of the Wild Mage back when Divine Soul wasn't an option, but it's hard to argue with a spell list twice as big as a normal sorc's spell list. I still love Bend Luck though--it's sort of like +5 to the casting stat of everyone in the whole party.

But yes, the opportunity cost is high.
It's a shame Wild Sorcerer's aren't even bad, they just made everything "at the DMs discretion" which is the last thing anyone wants.

[Segev]

It's a shame Wild Sorcerer's aren't even bad, they just made everything "at the DMs discretion" which is the last thing anyone wants.

A simple wording change to "unless the DM says otherwise" would have been all it needs, I think. I'm 65% sure that that's what the intent is, anyway: the wild magic rolls and triggers happen more often than not, but the DM can always decide not to bother with them when they would be disruptive to the flow of the game.

[Frogreaver]

It seems everyone out there agrees that Mind Sliver is one of the best cantrips, and I'm just not seeing it.

Mind Sliver does 1d6 damage, and substracts 1d4 from the next saving throw the target makes before the end of the caster's next turn.

A 1d4 penalty means that about 12.5%, Mind Sliver will make a difference and will turn a successful saving throw into a failed one (1 time in 8).

I just don't see why we should care about such a minute effect.

For example, a Fireball does on average 28 damage, and if resisted does only 14. So turning a successful saving throw into a failed one, will do 14 more damage to that creature.

So, on average Mind Sliver will increase the damage of the Fireball by 14 * 0.125 = 1.75. Meanwhile, Mind Sliver does on average 3 less damage at level 1-4 (6 at level 5-10) than Toll the Dead - so it's more far efficient to use Toll the Dead.

Of course it could be argued that the impact of Mind Sliver is greater for more powerful, higher level spells. However, if the party is throwing around high powered spell, is casting a Mind Sliver cantrip really the best use of your action? I would believe not.

It is true that Mind Sliver targets Intelligence, which is usually a poor saving throw for monsters. So I could see some use for the cantrip in a campaign where we are expect to fight a large quantity of dumb beasts (Tomb of Annihilation and all of its dinosaurs comes to mind). But in most settings, I can't imagine myself picking Mind Sliver.

It’s great because you can use it to set up your teammates.

For yourself it can help you conserve spell slots in the day by making them more likely to land the first attempt. It’s almost always better in a combat to just attempt your spell on round 1 and if it fails then reattempt it on round 2. The only time this isn’t true is when you don’t have the slots, due to already used, only have 1 7th level slot at your level, or expect the adventure day to be a grind such tha conserving spell slots is more important than making this battle a bit easier.

I’m with you that this self use isn’t particularly strong. But it’s an option you didn’t have before this spell and that makes it really stand out vs the other combat cantrips that mostly just do damage.

[PhantomSoul]

It’s great because you can use it to set up your teammates.

For yourself it can help you conserve spell slots in the day by making them more likely to land the first attempt. It’s almost always better in a combat to just attempt your spell on round 1 and if it fails then reattempt it on round 2. The only time this isn’t true is when you don’t have the slots, due to already used, only have 1 7th level slot at your level, or expect the adventure day to be a grind such tha conserving spell slots is more important than making this battle a bit easier.

I’m with you that this self use isn’t particularly strong. But it’s an option you didn’t have before this spell and that makes it really stand out vs the other combat cantrips that mostly just do damage.

Setting up teammates... but also spells that aren't about damage; converting it into damage via fireball is missing the big benefit that it could cause them to become incapacitated by Hypnotic Pattern, to knock out their Concentration (especially in a Sleet Storm), to give them exhaustion through Sickening Radiance, to keep them paralysed by Hold Person/Monster (which then also increases damage by more if crits are generated), to get them stunned by a monk, etc. I really think that for most circumstances, using it to boost the damage of a fireball is missing its power entirely.