Help me do *Science*!

[Quertus]

So, I have this crazy idea. Time and senility willing, I want to run some characters from 1-20.

One of the things that this will let me do is, I can *time* how long it takes me to run them up, and how long their combats take.

I plan to build tools to facilitate this. One tool will help me evaluate how long each character's turns take.

I will intentionally have the same encounter occur repeatedly, to repeatedly time total encounter length with and without using these tools, to allow me to measure the amount of time that using the tool seems to add, on average, to such encounters.

What other tools should I build? What all should / could I measure?

Oh, right: one of the big reasons for doing this was to use random rolls for treasure. Are there any tools online to handle that part? Otherwise, I expect that that will take longer than the combats. :smallfrown:

And… what should my party look like?

My current thoughts were to start with a 6-man party, and not replace dead characters. I thought I might use a Beguiler for skill monkey role, taking a Thug for SA DPS. A Crusader for 2nd melee / secondary healing. Not sure how I want to build a primary ranged character ("mailman" is pretty impossible at low levels). Some mix of Wizard / Sorcerer / Druid to cover BFC and general tools (maybe even a Druid / Sorcerer / Mystic Theurge). And almost certainly a Cleric for healing / Status Removal.

Anything look really "wrong" about that setup?

Likely to never actually happen, but maybe at least fun to talk about.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I do wonder why 6? The system was built for a 4 man party, explicitly IIRC.

[Quertus]

I do wonder why 6? The system was built for a 4 man party, explicitly IIRC.

Because I'm brutal on low-level characters. They'll likely die. I'll be lucky if I don't TPK.

And I'm used to big parties.

Also, while they live, it makes the XP easy to divide :smallbiggrin:

Lastly, it gives more data points about how long it takes me to take the turns for different classes / roles / etc.

(Personally, my hypothesis is that, if I allow shopping and/or item creation, that that will show more significantly different times than combat will)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Quertus
…I want to run some characters from 1-20.

I’m not sure what you mean here. Are you running a solo campaign for yourself? Or are there other players involved? Is this a tabletop or VTT environment?


Originally Posted by Quertus
I will intentionally have the same encounter occur repeatedly, to repeatedly time total encounter length with and without using these tools, to allow me to measure the amount of time that using the tool seems to add, on average, to such encounters.

Very puzzled at this. Will the characters be facing the exact same situation over and over? Is there a story involved, or is this purely a mechanical exercise?

And will you be measuring actual playtime, or just the number of rounds to resolve a combat scenario?


Originally Posted by Quertus
…maybe even a Druid / Sorcerer / Mystic Theurge….

Druid / Wizard / Arcane Hierophant would be another option for this type of character.

[Quertus]

I’m not sure what you mean here. Are you running a solo campaign for yourself? Or are there other players involved? Is this a tabletop or VTT environment?



Very puzzled at this. Will the characters be facing the exact same situation over and over? Is there a story involved, or is this purely a mechanical exercise?

And will you be measuring actual playtime, or just the number of rounds to resolve a combat scenario?



Druid / Wizard / Arcane Hierophant would be another option for this type of character.

Just by myself.

Exact same scenario - for mechanical reasons, but easily covered in "plot" as standard patrols and the like.

Actual playtime - minutes and seconds. One of the statistics will be "average turn length by class and level".

Not familiar with Arcane Hierophant - I'll have to look into it. I figured "Sorcerer" would make for quicker turns - and, more importantly, less prep time - than Wizard.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Quertus
Actual playtime - minutes and seconds. One of the statistics will be "average turn length by class and level".

Hmm. What’s the broader goal of collecting this information?


Originally Posted by Quertus
Not familiar with Arcane Hierophant - I'll have to look into it. I figured "Sorcerer" would make for quicker turns - and, more importantly, less prep time - than Wizard.

Arcane Hierophant is from Races of the Wild, pp.108-113. It has a few more class features than Mystic Theurge, and allows you to derive the benefits of a familiar from your animal companion.

As for bookkeeping, druid is a prepared caster, so there’s already additional prep time baked into any class combo involving a druid. And the druid also has the statbocks of summoned creatures to keep track of, so druid tends to be heavy on the bookkeeping all around.

By comparison, the wizard probably ends up with less bookkeeping and prep time—especially since the wizard is limited by how many spells he has in his spellbook, as opposed to a druid who has access to however many spells are in the sourcebooks allowed.

[icefractal]

For treasure generation, there's the one at Donjon (https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/treasure/). It's limited to stuff in the SRD though, I believe.

In terms of measuring battle speed though, won't running the same encounter repeatedly skew the results (because on the subsequent runs you'll already have a working strategy, and by a certain point you'll have the numbers/abilities memorized)?

[Maat Mons]

For the party, are you deliberately looking to mix casters and non-caster? Mix different tiers? Mix linear and quadratic power curves? I'm not clear on what you consider the ideal setup for science.

If you're expecting low levels to be deadly... -er than normal, minions are a good choice. Better for them to die than you, right? A Druid gets an Animal companion, and can get a second one with the Wild Cohort feat. Actually, just give everyone in the party the Wild Cohort feat. Clerics can have Commanded undead, and with the right domains, Commanded other things too. Though you'll need Improved Turning to actually Command a 1 HD creature at 1st level. And since the only thing preventing summoning from being viable at 1st level is duration, and therefore caster level, you can make a 1st-level summoner Cleric with the Summoner domain, which gives +2 caster level, and the Domain Focus ACF, which doubles the bonus from one domain. That's a 5-round summon duration at 1st level, a perfectly-adequate duration. Wizards can trade their Familiars for a Skeletal Minion. Or for an Animal Companion that quickly falls behind. But for surviving 1st level, it should be just fine. And the Wizard can get a Familiar with the Obtain Familiar feat, so it's not a permanent loss, kind of.

[Quertus]

For treasure generation, there's the one at Donjon (https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/treasure/). It's limited to stuff in the SRD though, I believe.

Sadness. But fine. They'll just have to craft / buy non-core items.


In terms of measuring battle speed though, won't running the same encounter repeatedly skew the results (because on the subsequent runs you'll already have a working strategy, and by a certain point you'll have the numbers/abilities memorized)?

It could. Which is why it won't be 1111122222, but 1212121212 (or some such). Or maybe I'll discount the outliers or something. Or maybe the tests will reveal that the learning curve itself looks different between the two systems.


Hmm. What’s the broader goal of collecting this information?

"For science!"

Actually, part of the point of this thread is to ask for goals.

But, for this bit of data? Curiosity. I've never actually explicitly *measured* turn length (at least, not for *quick* groups).


For the party, are you deliberately looking to mix casters and non-caster? Mix different tiers? Mix linear and quadratic power curves? I'm not clear on what you consider the ideal setup for science.

Ideal? Fast (and fun) to play.

If I actually do - and finish - this, I can always go back and do it again with different classes later.


If you're expecting low levels to be deadly... -er than normal, minions are a good choice. Better for them to die than you, right? A Druid gets an Animal companion, and can get a second one with the Wild Cohort feat. Actually, just give everyone in the party the Wild Cohort feat. Clerics can have Commanded undead, and with the right domains, Commanded other things too. Though you'll need Improved Turning to actually Command a 1 HD creature at 1st level. And since the only thing preventing summoning from being viable at 1st level is duration, and therefore caster level, you can make a 1st-level summoner Cleric with the Summoner domain, which gives +2 caster level, and the Domain Focus ACF, which doubles the bonus from one domain. That's a 5-round summon duration at 1st level, a perfectly-adequate duration. Wizards can trade their Familiars for a Skeletal Minion. Or for an Animal Companion that quickly falls behind. But for surviving 1st level, it should be just fine. And the Wizard can get a Familiar with the Obtain Familiar feat, so it's not a permanent loss, kind of.

Minions increase survivability, but make the game run slower. I want to have 1 or 2 characters with minions, to use to test that hypothesis.

So long as at least 3 characters survive to the point where Resurrection is viable, it'll be fine.