"Combining Magical Effects" Rule Makes no Sense?

[HPisBS]

The rules state that


"The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect--such as the highest bonus--from those castings applies while their durations overlap, or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap."

This would seem to mean that something like a Suggestion or Geas on your ally or NPC can be overwritten by casting your own Suggestion or Geas on that victim. If you're being tracked by Hunter's Mark, just HM yourself and voilà: tracker removed. And so on. You may not even need to wait for lvl 5 and Dispel Magic. That feels really... off.


Another, more intuitive and nuanced, reading is that when the same spell is cast multiple times, but has different effects, those effects can overlap (even if the difference is subtle).


For example, if your Rogue was permanently Geased to refrain from hiding, Geasing her yourself to take the least desired watch every night wouldn't break the first Geas because those effects don't really overlap. If two people HM one target, the effects don't overlap because two different casters get help damaging and tracking that target.



So, which is more correct by RAW? By RAI? By balance?

[Lunali]

Don't know which is RAW, but I would rule that both geases take effect, but the damage could only trigger once per day.

[fbelanger]

Common sense is not included and must be purchased separately.

[Sigreid]

I would argue that if the suggestion and Gease are not the same command, they are different effects. Likewise, each hunter's mark on a target provides the bonus to a different caster, making each a different effect. I think it's pretty clear this was meant to stop you from stacking 5 cloud kills in a room and stacking the damage.

[MaxWilson]

This would seem to mean that something like a Suggestion or Geas on your ally or NPC can be overwritten by casting your own Suggestion or Geas on that victim. If you're being tracked by Hunter's Mark, just HM yourself and voilà: tracker removed. And so on. You may not even need to wait for lvl 5 and Dispel Magic. That feels really... off.

Note that the tracker isn't removed by any interpretation of RAW--at most it just doesn't function for the original caster until your own Hunter's Mark's duration expires (most likely due to you stopping concentration). They have the option to maintain it and hope it turns back on.

This is so niche that I frankly don't care much either way. If players had strong feelings I would run it the way they preferred, otherwise I'd probably default to just saying, "Huh, yeah, I guess you can Suggestion yourself instead of casting Dispel Magic. You're spending your concentration to keep the other Suggestion suppressed, and I'm not sure it's worth it but sure, I guess that works." It's not difficult to rationalize that your brain somehow has only one Suggestion "port" for the spell to interface with.

But again, if someone else at the table felt strongly that it shouldn't be that way, I wouldn't have a problem jettisoning RAW and adopting a different rule (each Suggestion is its own separate "spell" and not the "same spell" unless they directly conflict). It's not like RAW is sacred or anything, it's just a handy default, and sometimes RAW is downright stupid.


I would argue that if the suggestion and Gease are not the same command, they are different effects. Likewise, each hunter's mark on a target provides the bonus to a different caster, making each a different effect. I think it's pretty clear this was meant to stop you from stacking 5 cloud kills in a room and stacking the damage.

Well, I think it's also meant to resolve what happens when two people both have the same person Dominated. Which command gets obeyed?

[Zhorn]

Sounds more like an "is a feature not a bug" scenario.
Hadn't thought of it before, but now you've brought it to my attention, I like it.

Doesn't remove the other spell effect, just between the two spell effects the stronger of the two is supressing the other.
The supressed effect is still present and can 'turn back on' (as MaxWilson phrases it) once the stronger effect dissipates, assuming the duration/concentration on the supressed spell effect has not yet ended.

To make use of it, you need to ensure that the spell effect you are using is the stronger of the two, so being of a greater spell level will ward against lower level attempts.
On equal spell level, yes just overriding it with a more recent casting can sound a little bit cheesy, but from the perspective of it is expending an equal level resource and you still need to maintain its duration to continue blocking the other spell effect, it all sounds fair and balanced in that regard.

On the subject of compulsion based effects like Geas and Suggestion, I'd be putting my DM hat on and table rule that as only blocking the weaker of the two (or shorter remaining duration if spell levels were equal) when the commands are in conflict, be that both are in direct opposition, or compelling to do two different things at the same time. Not a RAW answer, but I think it is the more interesting option to use in play.

[Telok]

Yay for the enemy priest overwriting your spirit guardians with his?

[Zhorn]

Yay for the enemy priest overwriting your spirit guardians with his?
That gets into the hairy interpretation of self targeting and area of effect.

One camp would say Spirit Guardians is cast on yourself, and for the duration the effect is dealing damage against hostiles in the area around you, in which case a enemy caster cannot negate your own Spirit Guardians as they cannot cast the spell on you.

The other camp would be Spirit Guardians is only centred on yourself, and the anyone inside the area is who the effect is on, which means when the areas of Spirit Guardians overlap, the resultant Venn diagram intersection is only dealing damage from the stronger of the two Spirit Guardians.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yay for the enemy priest overwriting your spirit guardians with his?

Not unless his spirit guardians and your spirit guardians try and damage the same subject.

[Segev]

These rules, in context, refer to two conflicting effects overlapping, or to prevent stacking of bonuses or penalties that apply to the same rolls or other stats. If there is no conflict, trying to apply these rules us incorrectly creating a problem where none exists.

[Aimeryan]

Its magic - it makes as much sense as any magic does. If you don't want the rule then don't have the rule.

[greenstone]

This would seem to mean that something like a Suggestion or Geas on your ally or NPC can be overwritten by casting your own Suggestion or Geas on that victim.
That sounds like a good outcome to me.

Two casters battling it out to exert control over a target is a common scene in fiction.

[MaxWilson]

That sounds like a good outcome to me.

Two casters battling it out to exert control over a target is a common scene in fiction.

It _is_ admittedly kind of weird that, by RAW at least, Suggestion: Give Your Horse To the Next Beggar You Meet overrides Suggestion: Meet Me At The Docks At Midnight.

[Sigreid]

Well, I think it's also meant to resolve what happens when two people both have the same person Dominated. Which command gets obeyed?

The most recently cast one.

[Lord Vukodlak]

It _is_ admittedly kind of weird that, by RAW at least, Suggestion: Give Your Horse To the Next Beggar You Meet overrides Suggestion: Meet Me At The Docks At Midnight.

Here’s an actual in game example.
“This place is dangerous you should pick up that kid and leave.” He does so.
The kid actually being a wizard trapped in a child’s body casts suggestion and says. “I suggested you put me down and kill that guy threatening us.”

[Segev]

Here’s an actual in game example.
“This place is dangerous you should pick up that kid and leave.” He does so.
The kid actually being a wizard trapped in a child’s body casts suggestion and says. “I suggested you put me down and kill that guy threatening us.”

Ignoring the nuances of whether one is a more believable suggestion than the other, I believe the RAW do support the more recent one winning. Personally, I would likely fall back on 3.5 rules and do either an opposed Charisma or opposed Casting Stat check, possibly with proficiency, between the casters to see which one wins out.

[Valmark]

The rules state that


"The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect--such as the highest bonus--from those castings applies while their durations overlap, or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap."

This would seem to mean that something like a Suggestion or Geas on your ally or NPC can be overwritten by casting your own Suggestion or Geas on that victim. If you're being tracked by Hunter's Mark, just HM yourself and voilà: tracker removed. And so on. You may not even need to wait for lvl 5 and Dispel Magic. That feels really... off.


Another, more intuitive and nuanced, reading is that when the same spell is cast multiple times, but has different effects, those effects can overlap (even if the difference is subtle).


For example, if your Rogue was permanently Geased to refrain from hiding, Geasing her yourself to take the least desired watch every night wouldn't break the first Geas because those effects don't really overlap. If two people HM one target, the effects don't overlap because two different casters get help damaging and tracking that target.



So, which is more correct by RAW? By RAI? By balance?

The RAW and RAI seem pretty obvious to me- you don't stack the same spells. It doesn't matter wether the effect is the same or not- the text talks about the same spell, and there's usually a distinction between a spell and an effect.

Balance-wise... Still good. To do it you need to have the same spell, to cast it at the same level and finally you need to keep up Concentration if required.

Dispel Magic is going to be better the majority of the time.

Somebody mentioned Spirit Guardians- two Spirit Guardians casted by opposing sides have no overlapping unless they are purposefully targeting their own allies- a caster isn't part of it's AoE and the allies are explicitely not under the effect of it (or whoever the caster chose).

[Sigreid]

It _is_ admittedly kind of weird that, by RAW at least, Suggestion: Give Your Horse To the Next Beggar You Meet overrides Suggestion: Meet Me At The Docks At Midnight.

Those two suggestions aren't mutually exclusive, so each would be a different effect IMO.

[Zhorn]

Those two suggestions aren't mutually exclusive, so each would be a different effect IMO.
Precise wording would imply still only one would be active;
"The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine"
So it wouldn't matter if the effects overlap or not, the spells just being the same will suppress the weaker/older of the two.

But as a rulings-not-rules approach I would play it as you suggest :smallwink:, since multiple non-conflicting suggestions is the more interesting option in play.

[stoutstien]

Brought to by the makers of candles don't need to be lit to provide light and large + creatures move slow enough they can barely move twice their stride length in a round.

Strange rules are strange.

[HPisBS]

Precise wording would imply still only one would be active;
"The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine"
So it wouldn't matter if the effects spells overlap or not, the spells effects just being the same will suppress the weaker/older of the two.

Fixed it for you :smalltongue:

No, but really, though. That means it all comes down to whether you (or your DM) consider the effects to overlap or not. For example, if your Fighter was Suggested to drop and do push-ups until he's exhausted to build up muscle as soon as possible, your lvl 2 caster's Command to rest wouldn't give him a break, because the effects would overlap: they'd both dictate the target's actions in the next round.

However, in the initial example, if your Rogue was permanently Geased to refrain from hiding, Geasing her yourself to take the least desired watch every night wouldn't break the first Geas because those effects don't really overlap, since the times they'd apply in would differ.

[Valmark]

Fixed it for you :smalltongue:

No, but really, though. That means it all comes down to whether you (or your DM) consider the effects to overlap or not. For example, if your Fighter was Suggested to drop and do push-ups until he's exhausted to build up muscle as soon as possible, your lvl 2 caster's Command to rest wouldn't give him a break, because the effects would overlap: they'd both dictate the target's actions in the next round.

However, in the initial example, if your Rogue was permanently Geased to refrain from hiding, Geasing her yourself to take the least desired watch every night wouldn't break the first Geas because those effects don't really overlap, since the times they'd apply in would differ.

I'm not sure if that's a joke or not- the rule talks about same spells, not effects. Zhorn had it right before the correction.

[HPisBS]

I'm not sure if that's a joke or not- the rule talks about same spells, not effects. Zhorn had it right before the correction.

Depends on whether you consider "effects" or "spell" to be the proper subject. If it's the latter, what would be the impact on the Suggestion / Command example? The rule wouldn't even apply apply at all.

[Valmark]

Depends on whether you consider "effects" or "spell" to be the proper subject. If it's the latter, what would be the impact on the Suggestion / Command example? The rule wouldn't even apply apply at all.

The proper subject of what?

That said yeah, Suggestion and Command aren't the same spells so their effects would add together- how that goes is up to the DM. Imo the character would rest 6 seconds before continuing with their 8 hours of push-ups (or homewever much it takes before they are exhausted and Suggestion deactivates).

[Aimeryan]

Depends on whether you consider "effects" or "spell" to be the proper subject. If it's the latter, what would be the impact on the Suggestion / Command example? The rule wouldn't even apply apply at all.

No; to be specific to the same effects of the same spell it would need to say this. So instead of:

The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine
it would need to say

The same effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine

As it is, any effects of the same spell do not combine.