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Elves
2021-03-13, 07:33 PM
For project in sig I had to write a little blurb for each celestial layer. They were a bit random so I gave them each a symbolism to become a ladder of spiritual progress or whatever. Could be useful if you have game scenes there. These blurbs are modified from here (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mount_Celestia).


“Known as the Silver Heaven, Lunia was the lowest layer of the Celestial Mount. There, the sky was always night, flooded with the silver specks of what might be taken for stars: in reality, millions of blessed souls, singing the chant of ascent to those beneath. Lunia embodied the call to virtue that speaks to those mired in the sorrows of our benighted world.”

“The second layer of the mountain, Mercuria, was known as the Golden Heaven, because warm and sourceless golden light suffused it. Here, the noblest warriors came for their eternal rest, those who had spent their lives fighting in defense of virtue—and here, if necessary, was the marshaling ground for Heaven's armies.”

“The third heaven was the lush and verdant land of Venya, the Heaven of Pearl. Crops, meadows, moors, hills, and rolling countryside all bathed in a soft glow reminiscent of the luster of white pearls. The halfling pantheon made their home here, in the Green Fields, for the layer represented a life of common and habitual virtue. It was colder than the previous two layers, its slopes sometimes painted with a gentle and iridescent snow.”

“Solania, the fourth layer, was called the Electrum Heaven. Its misty peaks were home to holy shrines, including monasteries and magnificent cathedrals chaplained by demigods, and ascetics sat on stacked stones upon its crags. Its slopes were rich in ores and minerals, symbolizing the hidden wisdom sought through spiritual inquest. Pilgrims came to this layer in hope of finding answers to life's persistent questions.”

“The fifth grade of the Mount was known as Mertion, the Platinum Heaven. Majestic citadels and domes dotted its plains. Here, Empyrea, City of Tempered Souls, sat at the edge of a cold mountain lake. It was known to host many magical fountains with healing properties, as well as many hospitals and expert healers, for this layer embodied the quest to bring healing and salvation to those harmed by evil or afflicted by life's pains.”

“The sixth heaven, Jovar, was known as the Glittering Heaven or the Heaven of Gems. Within its bellied slopes were vaults lined floor to ceiling with huge rubies and garnets that gave off a glow like a hearth fire, each one a heart burning with the extent of sacred love and passion.
On the slopes outside was Yesteria, the Heavenly City. The stones that made up the city were precious jewels, and in the topmost terrace was the bridge of al-Sihal, formed of pure light, leading to the Summit of the Mount. Guarding the bridge, the solar angel Xerona judged who was worthy of reaching the Highest Heaven.”

“The topmost peak of Celestia, and its seventh layer, Chronias was called the Illuminated Heaven. The legends said that Chronias was so good and lawful that it glowed of its own accord, embodying the full assumption of virtue. It was thought to be the ultimate goal of Celestia's inhabitants to ascend the layers one by one in order to reach Chronias, where their souls would join with the essence of the plane itself. Other creatures who reached the peak would have all evil and neutrality burned out of them, leaving them indelibly good—if they survived.”

Clistenes
2021-03-14, 03:59 PM
Mmmm... I think you should do better if you connected each layer's meaning with the symbolism of each planet...

Lunia gets its name from the Moon (Luna). It's associated to Dreams and Aspirations. Souls who were lawful good at heart and wanted to do good things but died before really doing anything worthwhile would go there.

Mercuria gets its name from planet Mercury. It's associated to Intelligence and Skill. Intellectuals and philosophers whose works advanced the cause of Law and Good or who dedicated their lives to study such works, or people who used their brains to help others would go there.

Venya gets its name from planet Venus. It's associated to Love and Fertility. People who loved, cared for and comforted others would go there, as would do lawful good farmers who spent their lives fruitfully caring for the land and providing food to others.

Solania gets its name from the Sun (Sol). It's associated to Glory, Light and Exaltation. I think public figures who became examples of lawful good behaviour for the masses or who spread around lawful good ideologies would fit there.

Mertion gets its name from planet Mars. It's associated to War and Violence. I think warriors who fought against evil would fit there.

Jovar gets its name from planet Jupiter. It's associated to Power and Rulership. I think lawful good leaders and rulers would fit there, but also parents and teachers who raised their wards in the principles of Law and Good.

Chronias gets its name from the greek god Chronos (which the Romans claimed was the same as their god Saturnus), who is associated in turn with planet Saturn. Roman god Saturnus is associated to Time and to the Golden Age. The layer of Chronias remains kinda mysterious, and I think it should remain so, but it has connotations that connect it to Infinity and Purity; it's the home of the souls of newborn (or unborn) babies and of perfected souls.

Now, I have said that souls strongly associated to certain virtues and behaviours go to their associated layers, but I think no soul should ascend the mountain without mastering all the virtues, hence a soul reborn at Mertion who wanted to ascend the mountain should go to Lunia and ascend from there, ascending as the master all the virtues...

a_flemish_guy
2021-03-19, 09:20 PM
Mmmm... I think you should do better if you connected each layer's meaning with the symbolism of each planet...

Lunia gets its name from the Moon (Luna). It's associated to Dreams and Aspirations. Souls who were lawful good at heart and wanted to do good things but died before really doing anything worthwhile would go there.

Mercuria gets its name from planet Mercury. It's associated to Intelligence and Skill. Intellectuals and philosophers whose works advanced the cause of Law and Good or who dedicated their lives to study such works, or people who used their brains to help others would go there.

Venya gets its name from planet Venus. It's associated to Love and Fertility. People who loved, cared for and comforted others would go there, as would do lawful good farmers who spent their lives fruitfully caring for the land and providing food to others.

Solania gets its name from the Sun (Sol). It's associated to Glory, Light and Exaltation. I think public figures who became examples of lawful good behaviour for the masses or who spread around lawful good ideologies would fit there.

Mertion gets its name from planet Mars. It's associated to War and Violence. I think warriors who fought against evil would fit there.

Jovar gets its name from planet Jupiter. It's associated to Power and Rulership. I think lawful good leaders and rulers would fit there, but also parents and teachers who raised their wards in the principles of Law and Good.

Chronias gets its name from the greek god Chronos (which the Romans claimed was the same as their god Saturnus), who is associated in turn with planet Saturn. Roman god Saturnus is associated to Time and to the Golden Age. The layer of Chronias remains kinda mysterious, and I think it should remain so, but it has connotations that connect it to Infinity and Purity; it's the home of the souls of newborn (or unborn) babies and of perfected souls.

Now, I have said that souls strongly associated to certain virtues and behaviours go to their associated layers, but I think no soul should ascend the mountain without mastering all the virtues, hence a soul reborn at Mertion who wanted to ascend the mountain should go to Lunia and ascend from there, ascending as the master all the virtues...

yes, entiarly this, celestia is derived from book 2 of dante's inferno which describes purgatory with some differences

lunia is made up of those souls who are lawfull good but have never been challenged on being lawfull good, it consists of farming communities who never really lack materials or food, its heaven in the way that it fullfills all material wants/needs you could have

mercuria is harder, to get through you have to truly understand what it means to be lawfull good and understand what kind of actions it means to be lawfull good

venya means that not only do you understand lawfull good but that you put it's teachings into practice, you truly love your fellow men

solania means that not only do you understand lawfull good and put it's teachings into practice but you inspire others to understand lawfull good and put it's teachings into practice

mertion is the following lair, now that you know how lawfull good works and can inspire other people it's time to protect them from those who don't want that to happen (I think this is the hardest layer to break through as it requires understanding of what's not lawfull good)

jovar is where you take the lessons learned in mertion and apply them to the world at large, a lawfull good nation which tolerates neutral evil more then chaotic neutral hasn't learned the lesson of jovar

chronias is essentialy where the souls of LG end up, having achieved full understanding of what's lawfull and good, they are then either used as fuel for the LG gods or as iof yet unborn souls

Calthropstu
2021-03-19, 09:29 PM
...they are then either used as fuel for the LG gods...

Yes, that sounds like a wonderful fate. "Be good so we can eat you."

a_flemish_guy
2021-03-19, 10:26 PM
Yes, that sounds like a wonderful fate. "Be good so we can eat you."

well, it's rather once you get here you'll essentially be a perfect vessel of lawfull and good and as of such you'll willingly be absorbed into the greater being of lawfull and good

furthermore there's nothing forcing you along that path, if you want to you can spend an eternity in the first layer, except that to get there you have to be lawfull good and to be lawfull good is to seek improvement at all times

Calthropstu
2021-03-20, 01:47 AM
well, it's rather once you get here you'll essentially be a perfect vessel of lawfull and good and as of such you'll willingly be absorbed into the greater being of lawfull and good

furthermore there's nothing forcing you along that path, if you want to you can spend an eternity in the first layer, except that to get there you have to be lawfull good and to be lawfull good is to seek improvement at all times

Lol. "Work your way to tastiness. Give me that ultimate flavor. Make sure to dip yourself in Lawful Good brand barbecue sauce." Yet more proof all the gods are actually the same alignment: neutral hungry.

Clistenes
2021-03-20, 03:14 AM
Souls typically follow three paths:

Religious people usually end merging with their deity after a period of purification (they work to become similar to their deity until they become like tiny copies of their god), save the few who become proxies.

Some non-religious people merge with their plane instead, after living some time as petitioners.

Others evolve into outsiders (alignment exemplars).

In the old lore non-religious people who went to Celestia all became Archons and climbed the ranks (a process independent from climbing the mountain... you could be a Hound Archon in Venya and a Warden Archon in Mercuria). It was unclear what happened to those who reached Chronias... they may merge with the plane, join a glorious community of saints or maybe start climbing another mountain, becoming even more perfect...

I think nowadays there are run-of-the-mill petitioners in Celestia who don't become outsiders...

Millstone85
2021-03-21, 05:47 AM
This is very interesting.

Based on the posts of Clistenes and a_flemish_guy, I could see souls receiving titles as they are accepted on each layer:

Lunia ------> Volunteer
Mercuria---> Disciple
Venya------> Benefactor
Solania ----> Paragon
Mertion ----> Knight
Jovar-------> Lord
Chronias---> Saint


Yes, that sounds like a wonderful fate. "Be good so we can eat you."Well, if Chronias gets its name from Kronos/Saturn, that is hardly surprising. :smallwink:

But really, this is where I would inject some Biblical Lovecraftianism.

Floating above the highest peak of Mount Celestia would be a host of ophanim, or maybe just the one ophan. You know, those intertwined wheels with more eyes than a beholder, and sometimes wings, or wings with eyes for feathers, also on fire. Best angel (or archon, I guess) ever!

Elysium would similarly have cherubim somewhere. Not the little cupids, no, but rather the guardinals who couldn't decide which animal or human head they wanted, so they each got four at once.

And for Arborea, the seraphim, these chaotic messes of wings, eyes and hands.

In any case, you reach those when eternity becomes tiring, even with all the fulfilment found in the heavens. Your only desire now is to contribute to the well-being of future generations, and that is your covenant with the glowing spaghetti thing in the sky.

Clistenes
2021-03-21, 08:10 AM
This is very interesting.

Based on the posts of Clistenes and a_flemish_guy, I could see souls receiving titles as they are accepted on each layer:

Lunia ------> Volunteer
Mercuria---> Disciple
Venya------> Benefactor
Solania ----> Paragon
Mertion ----> Knight
Jovar-------> Lord
Chronias---> Saint

Well, if Chronias gets its name from Kronos/Saturn, that is hardly surprising. :smallwink:

But really, this is where I would inject some Biblical Lovecraftianism.

Floating above the highest peak of Mount Celestia would be a host of ophanim, or maybe just the one ophan. You know, those intertwined wheels with more eyes than a beholder, and sometimes wings, or wings with eyes for feathers, also on fire. Best angel (or archon, I guess) ever!

Elysium would similarly have cherubim somewhere. Not the little cupids, no, but rather the guardinals who couldn't decide which animal or human head they wanted, so they each got four at once.

And for Arborea, the seraphim, these chaotic messes of wings, eyes and hands.

In any case, you reach those when eternity becomes tiring, even with all the fulfilment found in the heavens. Your only desire now is to contribute to the well-being of future generations, and that is your covenant with the glowing spaghetti thing in the sky.

Each Archon rank (Lantern, Hound, Warden, Sword, Trumpet, Throne...) also has a sub-rank (https://gamelore.fandom.com/wiki/Archon_(Planescape))(lead, tin, brass, bronze, silver, gold, platinum); a platinum Archon is close to being promoted to the next rank and become a new subspecies (for example, Platinum Hound Archons are promoted to Lead Warden Archon, who then rise to tin, brass, bronze, silver, gold and platinum again, becoming a Lead Sword Archon...).

As for the ascension of Mount Celestia, there are several different paths (http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Mount_Celestia), each associated to a different lifestyle: The Noble Eightfold Path (patience, pacifism, courage, joy, discipline, generosity, kindness, and teaching others), the Path of Valor, the Path of Renunciation, the Path of Gnosis...etc.

So a petitioner climbing the Mount would choose a Path, and climb the layers at the same time the rise their metal rank and their Archon rank...

noob
2021-03-21, 09:27 AM
Religious people usually end merging with their deity after a period of purification (they work to become similar to their deity until they become like tiny copies of their god), save the few who become proxies.
.

That system is completely absurd
Imagine a deity of freedom, independence and individuality: people would then work toward becoming the opposite of all of those ideals(someone who is uniform with all the others seeking that goal) then merge with the deity.
Would that not make this god stop representing those ideals immediately?
Also most non setting manuals describing the mechanics of deities in dnd do not mention eating followers.
It is setting specific: it is just that a lot of settings like grimdark deities then hates the idea the players would consider deities monsters and try to kill them(ps: if you make something super ultra evil then you should also give an option to kill it for the players since dnd is in significant part a fighting wish fulfilment game)

Clistenes
2021-03-21, 10:18 AM
That system is completely absurd
Imagine a deity of freedom, independence and individuality: people would then work toward becoming the opposite of all of those ideals(someone who is uniform with all the others seeking that goal) then merge with the deity.
Would that not make this god stop representing those ideals immediately?
Also most non setting manuals describing the mechanics of deities in dnd do not mention eating followers.
It is setting specific: it is just that a lot of settings like grimdark deities then hates the idea the players would consider deities monsters and try to kill them(ps: if you make something super ultra evil then you should also give an option to kill it for the players since dnd is in significant part a fighting wish fulfilment game)

It's not so much "eating" as "merging". Deities would be gestalt entities made of souls.

noob
2021-03-21, 10:21 AM
It's not so much "eating" as "merging". Deities would be gestalt entities made of souls.

It is still conceptually absurd to merge people seeking independence together: it is like trying to make a crowd of people who hates being in crowds.
Also there is no significant difference between making things merge and having one thing eat the others: in both cases you lose most of them.

Elves
2021-03-21, 03:49 PM
You know, when I wrote this up real quick I didn't even realize it was a direct Paradiso expy since the names are somewhat twisted. Why only 7 then? Also, kind of dumb to keep planet names after it's a mountain now which is supposed to be Purgatory. There is, as first poster noted, also a conflict between the idea of people being sent to reside in the heaven appropriate to their life vs the mountain being a ladder of virtuous ascension. This is why Planescape's pseudo-mythologism is such a mess. Similarly, how it has Hell as the inside of a planet but not earth, making it lose all impact.

Clistenes
2021-03-21, 04:47 PM
You know, when I wrote this up real quick I didn't even realize it was a direct Paradiso expy since the names are somewhat twisted. Why only 7 then? Also, kind of dumb to keep planet names after it's a mountain now which is supposed to be Purgatory. There is, as first poster noted, also a conflict between the idea of people being sent to reside in the heaven appropriate to their life vs the mountain being a ladder of virtuous ascension. This is why Planescape's pseudo-mythologism is such a mess. Similarly, how it has Hell as the inside of a planet but not earth, making it lose all impact.

The Divine Comedy was written from 1304 to 1321. Planet Uranus was discovered in 1781, Neptune in 1846 (they had been sighted before, but not identified planets)... so Dante didn't include them, and Planescape follows Dante's model...

Mount Celestia is a mix of both the Purgatory and of Heaven. It is mostly Heaven, hence the planetary names, but people are tested and purged of sin while climbing it, so there is an element of the Purgatory too... Of course, unlike Purgatory, Mount Celestia is a place of self-improvement, not of punishment, so people climbing it aren't tortured, just tested...

Anyways, yes, Planescape is quite messy; they tried to make all planes and alignment symmetrical, the gods quite mundane, mortal belief all-powerful and Sigil and its factions the center of the Multiverse, and you end with an afterlife that is quite cynical and disappointing...

Elves
2021-03-21, 05:16 PM
IIRC in Divine Comedy heaven 8 is the fixed stars and heaven 9 is the "primum mobile". Which could be replaced with more planets now if desired. Or heaven 9 could be that ophan ball of light floating over the mount someone else suggested.

I'm not a fan of planescape for what is ultimately a simple reason, the premise is adventure in a multitude of other worlds and surreal landscapes, but in contradiction to that goal they then bound it within a small and rigid alignment chart.

Pex
2021-03-21, 06:09 PM
That system is completely absurd
Imagine a deity of freedom, independence and individuality: people would then work toward becoming the opposite of all of those ideals(someone who is uniform with all the others seeking that goal) then merge with the deity.
Would that not make this god stop representing those ideals immediately?
Also most non setting manuals describing the mechanics of deities in dnd do not mention eating followers.
It is setting specific: it is just that a lot of settings like grimdark deities then hates the idea the players would consider deities monsters and try to kill them(ps: if you make something super ultra evil then you should also give an option to kill it for the players since dnd is in significant part a fighting wish fulfilment game)

Such a deity wouldn't be Lawful Good and thus not be in Mount Celestia. That deity would personify Chaotic Good.

Millstone85
2021-03-21, 06:23 PM
Souls typically follow three paths:

Religious people usually end merging with their deity after a period of purification (they work to become similar to their deity until they become like tiny copies of their god), save the few who become proxies.

Some non-religious people merge with their plane instead, after living some time as petitioners.

Others evolve into outsiders (alignment exemplars).
Imagine a deity of freedom, independence and individuality: people would then work toward becoming the opposite of all of those ideals(someone who is uniform with all the others seeking that goal) then merge with the deity.
Such a deity wouldn't be Lawful Good and thus not be in Mount Celestia. That deity would personify Chaotic Good.It felt like these were presented as general rules across all the Outer Planes, and I agree with this point of criticism. Letting go of the self, seeking unity and uniformity, would be a very odd thing to do on the chaotic half of the Wheel.

noob
2021-03-22, 06:26 AM
I would like a setting where chaotic deities do that but in reverse.
So a chaotic deity gains power by making new chaotic creatures and loses in power when those chaotic creatures die.

Millstone85
2021-03-23, 06:42 AM
I would like a setting where chaotic deities do that but in reverse.
So a chaotic deity gains power by making new chaotic creatures and loses in power when those chaotic creatures die.Corellon is kinda like that, at least in 5e. All elven souls are originally pieces of him and, when elves chose to abandon their existence as shapeshifting lights and instead adopt more permanent forms, it reduced Corellon's own mutability. Elves are also explicitly in a cycle of reincarnation, their souls moving back-and-forth between Arvandor and other planes, except for the dark elves who are permanently divorced from Corellon (something I imagine cost him power).

noob
2021-03-23, 06:58 AM
Corellon is kinda like that, at least in 5e. All elven souls are originally pieces of him and, when elves chose to abandon their existence as shapeshifting lights and instead adopt more permanent forms, it reduced Corellon's own mutability. Elves are also explicitly in a cycle of reincarnation, their souls moving back-and-forth between Arvandor and other planes, except for the dark elves who are permanently divorced from Corellon (something I imagine cost him power).

Did Corellon become stronger by making elves?

Millstone85
2021-03-23, 07:30 AM
Did Corellon become stronger by making elves?Ah, well, probably not, since elves were "bled" by Corellon when he was wounded by Gruumsh. Although... It is not said if Corellon was or remains a deity that doesn't need followers. He might be better off having them these days.

Silly Name
2021-03-26, 06:04 AM
IIRC in Divine Comedy heaven 8 is the fixed stars and heaven 9 is the "primum mobile". Which could be replaced with more planets now if desired. Or heaven 9 could be that ophan ball of light floating over the mount someone else suggested.

Technically there's a further "layer" above Heaven 9, which is the Empyrean, which is the ultimate goal of Dante's journey, being the place of pure light and perfection and the source of creation and momentum of all the other heavens and Earth itself (funnily enough, the Empyrean itself is still, as in Medieval philosophy movement implies change, which implies imperfection, therefore even the Prime Mobile isn't 100% perfect).

So I'd say the ball of light above Mount Celestia is better associated with this, rather than the ninth heaven. An infinite, glorious sky of light and peace and quiet from which flows forth life and goodness.