Factotum/ Chameleon character direction

[Zauriel56]

I'm gonna get to play in a 3.5 dnd game and will be playing a factotum 5/chameleon 1. I don't want to do a manyshot build as their is an archer fighter, and don't want to compete in that area. I was thinking of focusing on magic but not sure where to start. All official books are allowed and dragon magazine is allowed with approval. Not looking to break the game just want to be relevant in and out of combat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Factotum and Chameleon don't really synergize well when you look at them in any detail. Too much overlap and they even come into conflict here and there.

If you really want to play up the "be anything I want" for a day at a time, I really like a Rogue 1/ Incarnate 4/ Chameleon X. Rogue gets you started and gives you most of your prerequisites, incarnate gives you a whole host of skill boosts and tools that synergize with most roles, and then chameleon lets you actually use those tools to full effect. Make it a changeling with the racial rogue sublevel and you really can be basically a different character every day of the week.



That out of the way, you play a magic focused chameleon the same way you play most caster; know your spells, get equipment to supplement and amplify them, like metamagic rods, wands of spells you don't want eating slots, etc and so on. The upshot is that -all- spells are on your class spell list up to level 6. The downside is that it's -only- up to level 6 spells. You're trading depth for breadth to a pretty impressive degree.

I have a question though. If you're going to focus on one set of tactics to the exclusion of others, why play a jack-of-all-trades class like factotum or chameleon in the first place?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm gonna get to play in a 3.5 dnd game and will be playing a factotum 5/chameleon 1. I don't want to do a manyshot build as their is an archer fighter, and don't want to compete in that area. I was thinking of focusing on magic but not sure where to start. All official books are allowed and dragon magazine is allowed with approval. Not looking to break the game just want to be relevant in and out of combat.You could be the go-to gadget guy, maybe even a super-spy. Even just a couple of riverine +1 morphing/sizing/metalline weapons can be multitools with so many uses it's ridiculous. For instance, shields are bashing weapons, so feel free to expand the thing large enough to wedge into a hallway to make an impassable barrier to anyone not willing or able to excavate around it. And it's made of indestructible force, so just watch out for disintegrates and rods of cancellation, and you're golden.

Take Ancestral Relic for it and specialize in spells and skills that let you use that thing whenever possible. Also invest in some shapesand and a high Wis, so you can use it whenever the chances of having it taken over by a lucky Wis check aren't an issue.

Also, use the above morphing weapon(s) to make a gnome calculus and craft alchemical items in your off time. You're a spellcaster, so this shouldn't be a problem. Feel free to also use a sand (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization) blaster (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?415149-Sand-Blaster-MM3) to blow exotic powders at enemies. Powdered poisons, black sand, etc.

I do believe there's a feat that allows you a floating pool of money you can use to pull objects out of thin air, as well, so if you can use that, feel free to literally be Schroedinger's tool-user.

[Zauriel56]

Factotum and Chameleon don't really synergize well when you look at them in any detail. Too much overlap and they even come into conflict here and there.

If you really want to play up the "be anything I want" for a day at a time, I really like a Rogue 1/ Incarnate 4/ Chameleon X. Rogue gets you started and gives you most of your prerequisites, incarnate gives you a whole host of skill boosts and tools that synergize with most roles, and then chameleon lets you actually use those tools to full effect. Make it a changeling with the racial rogue sublevel and you really can be basically a different character every day of the week.



That out of the way, you play a magic focused chameleon the same way you play most caster; know your spells, get equipment to supplement and amplify them, like metamagic rods, wands of spells you don't want eating slots, etc and so on. The upshot is that -all- spells are on your class spell list up to level 6. The downside is that it's -only- up to level 6 spells. You're trading depth for breadth to a pretty impressive degree.

I have a question though. If you're going to focus on one set of tactics to the exclusion of others, why play a jack-of-all-trades class like factotum or chameleon in the first place?

I shouldn't have said it that way. What I meant was I don't want archery to be my main focus.
I've liked the idea of factotum/chameleon, and was unsure of how to focus on the "jack of all trades" aspect.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Another thing to consider about the morphing weapon user I suggested above is a level in master of masks to have proficiency in all exotic and martial weapons. Familiarize yourself with all the weird and wonderful weapons out there, and use new ones whenever possible.

[Rebel7284]

Factotum 5 doesn't offer a ton. You either want to go to Factotum 8 for the extra standard action (but that delays the best part of Chameleon, getting low level spells from all the spell lists) or you want 1 or 3 levels and then something else. Ideas for something else:

- Incarnate has already been mentioned, but it gives you a lot of options.
- Cleric 1 is an amazing dip and there is a whole handbook about dipping cleric. In addition, if you want any feats that interact with casting, you need an actual caster class since Chameleon doesn't allow you to qualify.
- Conjurer 1 is great for Abrupt Jaunt immediate magic, Scribe Scroll OR a fighter feat, and the whole having an actual caster level thing.
- Duskblade 3 is fun if you want to punch people with your multiple spells
- Rogue 1 or 2 is helpful for the extra skill points and either sneak attack (Craven feat is always helpful for more damage) or Fighter feats.
- Human Paragon is great for the extra skills AND feat AND ability boost. Perfect fit for Chameleon. Also happens to progress any caster class you take, which is nifty for that extra second level spell and stuff like Craft Wondrous Item which requires caster level 3.
- Spellthief 1 is amusing for removing memorized spells from casters you attack, but you need Master Spellthief feat.
- Hit and Run fighter is nifty for the initiative bonus and Dex to Damage, but you need some backstory about how you learned a Drow fighting style.
- Totemist 2 similar to Incarnate due to flexible binds, less skill focused, but move action dimention door is fun.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about factotum 3/totemist 2/master of masks 1/chameleon 10? Factotum 3 is a natural break-point, as is totemist 2 (which has the unique totem chakra). Master of masks shares a not-insignificant amount of prereqs with chameleon, and the gladiator mask grants you proficiency with all martial and exotic weapons, which can grant you a considerable amount of flexibility with your morphing/sizing weapons (as I mentioned above). And spells can make up a considerable amount for the lack of further totemist levels, considering you can use them to bind soulmelds to chakras, so stuff like the phase cloak (ie, the best soulmeld in the game for a sneaky character) is up for grabs, even without the native ability to bind to your shoulders slot.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I shouldn't have said it that way. What I meant was I don't want archery to be my main focus.
I've liked the idea of factotum/chameleon, and was unsure of how to focus on the "jack of all trades" aspect.

Fair enough but archery is something you've got to spec for pretty hard to do anything useful with it anyway. Definitely one of the harder things to do well.

WIth mine (the build I suggested), I focused on the whole "be anything" aspect with sectioned armor from the planar handbook so I could switch between light, medium, and heavy at will. Was prioritzing glamoured for a special ability

I was also gonna pick up defensive shell and use that to qualify for use of a multifaceted persona shard so I could shift the enhancement bonus to my primary ability around to match my aptitude focus for the day. I'll admit, that gets expensive. About triple what a normal belt of giant strength or periapt of wisdom costs.

For an instrument when I wanted to be a bard, I grabbed a steel flute that also doubles as a bludgeoning weapon for when I don't have my incarnate weapon shaped and a dagger just doesn't cut it.

Vestment of many styles was definitely on the "things to get" list.

After all that it's just a matter of making sure you've got plenty of options from alchemical gear and generally useful magic items that don't care about class. Bottled rope, robe of many things, deck of illusions, etc.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And spells can make up a considerable amount for the lack of further totemist levels, considering you can use them to bind soulmelds to chakras, so stuff like the phase cloak (ie, the best soulmeld in the game for a sneaky character) is up for grabs, even without the native ability to bind to your shoulders slot.

Holup. That doesn't work as well as you think. Only the open least chakra spell is actually available to chameleons. Lesser and greater are 7th and 9th level spells. Soulboon is nice but with only a 1 minute duration, it's not enough on its own. I love incarnum but it, like most of the stuff released late in 3e's run, what you get out of it without investment is pretty limited. MIC has the soulstone to open your brow chakra for 10k, so that's pretty sweet. Getting your shoulders open as a chameleon, without a custom item at least, is gonna take some UMD.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Holup. That doesn't work as well as you think. Only the open least chakra spell is actually available to chameleons. Lesser and greater are 7th and 9th level spells. Soulboon is nice but with only a 1 minute duration, it's not enough on its own. I love incarnum but it, like most of the stuff released late in 3e's run, what you get out of it without investment is pretty limited. MIC has the soulstone to open your brow chakra for 10k, so that's pretty sweet. Getting your shoulders open as a chameleon, without a custom item at least, is gonna take some UMD.A manifestation of the soul crystal power for psionic open chakra isn't terribly expensive to purchase, all things considered. Keeping it around for more than 1 hour/level is the hard part. 1,050 gp for 4 days' worth of binding one's shoulder chakra (2 manifestations, each Extended to 48 hours). And there are tricks to hold things in stasis without too much money involved. For instance, an acorn of far travel spell cast on a tree in a timeless plane (say, the Astral) renders you and your equipment (including any soul crystals in your possession) immune to the passage of time. Which, might I remind you, also indefinitely extends your manifestation of psionic open chakra...

[Kelb_Panthera]

A manifestation of the soul crystal power for psionic open chakra isn't terribly expensive to purchase, all things considered. Keeping it around for more than 1 hour/level is the hard part. 1,050 gp for 4 days' worth of binding one's shoulder chakra (2 manifestations, each Extended to 48 hours). And there are tricks to hold things in stasis without too much money involved. For instance, an acorn of far travel spell cast on a tree in a timeless plane (say, the Astral) renders you and your equipment (including any soul crystals in your possession) immune to the passage of time. Which, might I remind you, also indefinitely extends your manifestation of psionic open chakra...

And that's all -way- higher optimization than most people are allowed or willing to allow except -maybe- paying for an NPC to manifest soulcrystal, which, as you note, won't even last a full day.

[bean illus]

The upshot is that -all- spells are on your class spell list up to level 6. The downside is that it's -only- up to level 6 spells. You're trading depth for breadth to a pretty impressive degree.


This isn't exactly true though.
You would need to check with your DM, but chameleon's ability to draw from any list puts many higher level spells at their disposal. Check the handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=135.0) if you don't know what i mean.

Also, the extra slot feat from complete arcane grants spell access up to 8th level, which due to chameleon cherry picking is equal to 9th level spells, and at CL 20. And in chameleons case, extra slot grants two spell slots.

Many of you know this, but it's worth mentioning, for those that don't. Again, check with your DM, before attempting such shenanigans.

Facto 8, and Chameleon 9 could be combined, and still leave 3 levels for dipping. Facto 11 is also worth considering.

... Some folk think factotum makes a decent tripper.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Procure some means of spontaneously casting spells, then take Versatile Spellcaster so you can cast up to 7th level spells? That'd net you open lesser chakra to open your shoulders slot for soulmeld use.

Personally, I prefer the psionic version, since boosting your ML and lowering costs is fairly simple, and you can open your shoulders slot by 7th level (when you get access to psionic open chakra). Is there any way to convince the DM to allow you to use this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=8095236&postcount=1)? You can use augments to access much higher level spell equivalents, and you still have access to arcane and divine aptitude foci when you want them.

[Crake]

If your DM allows it, a 1 level dip in eidetic wizard for an eidetic spellbook can save you any worries about your spellbook, and you can also grab practised spellcaster for that wizard level, and gain access to the extra spell feat, which you can change daily via chameleon's floating bonus feat at level 2 to add a new spell into your eidetic spellbook every day. Even without eidetic wizard, an abrupt jaunt wizard is equally as useful for survival, and you need CL 5 from SOMEWHERE to qualify for extra spell and extra slot.

Speaking of extra slot, it's unlikely that your DM will allow it, but using the chameleon's floating bonus feat to get extra slot just before leveling, and again just after leveling, at a time when you would normally get a feat, allows you to effectively leapfrog up spell slot levels, as long as you have enough feats to allow you to cast higher level spells (snowcasting, heighten+earth spell+versatile spellcaster, sanctum spell etc).

And speaking of versatile spellcaster, a dip in cleric will qualify you for that feat, along with giving you access to turning attempts which can be incredibly useful when you can swap out domain feats at a whim with your floating bonus feat, as well as giving you access to two potentially very useful domains, depending on what you pick.

At least 1 level of factotum also synergises really well with the fact that you're taking able learner ANYWAY, so you may as well have every single skill as a class skill forever. If you're focusing on intelligence as a casting stat, brain over brawn is also very nice, as it adds to your initiative check, so factotum 3 may be worth aiming for.

[bean illus]

If ... , and you need CL 5 from SOMEWHERE to qualify for extra spell and extra slot.

... , a dip in cleric will ... access to turning attempts .

Btw, I've been meaning to ask ...

What's the common interpretation on using turn attempts provided by chameleon, and/or factotum, as fuel for divine metamagic?

[Rebel7284]

Btw, I've been meaning to ask ...

What's the common interpretation on using turn attempts provided by chameleon, and/or factotum, as fuel for divine metamagic?

Cleric should work. Factotum is weird as per usual.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Opportunistic piety does say "You can use this energy to heal injuries, harm undead, or turn undead." So if the ability allows you to use turn undead, as the class feature, that should encompass ALL uses of turn undead, which includes divine feats, such as Divine Metamagic.

[redking]

Are you interested in the doppelganger race? How about something like this (https://www.enworld.org/threads/doppelganger-mindspy-chameleon-assassin.215477/)?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are you interested in the doppelganger race? How about something like this (https://www.enworld.org/threads/doppelganger-mindspy-chameleon-assassin.215477/)?Changeling would have a vastly smaller racial penalty on surviving (no LA or RHD), and they're half-human and half-doppelganger, so they should -- should -- qualify for anything that humans and doppelgangers do. Note the emphasis on "should."

[Nifft]

Opportunistic piety does say "You can use this energy to heal injuries, harm undead, or turn undead." So if the ability allows you to use turn undead, as the class feature, that should encompass ALL uses of turn undead, which includes divine feats, such as Divine Metamagic.

Divine feats are explicitly not turning undead though.

What you're saying is like arguing that if you have gold, you must be able to use it for everything anyone else uses gold to do, such as learning Wizard spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Changeling would have a vastly smaller racial penalty on surviving (no LA or RHD), and they're half-human and half-doppelganger, so they should -- should -- qualify for anything that humans and doppelgangers do. Note the emphasis on "should."

The adaptation section says you should extend both able learner and chameleon to changelings if you're running an eberron game. Designer intent couldn't be a whole lot clearer without rewriting the "other races" chapter to include changelings.

[Zauriel56]

changeling is allowed, which is what I was wanting to play.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

changeling is allowed, which is what I was wanting to play.In that case, what about a dip in changeling rogue from Races of Eberron for 10 skill points at 1st level and skill mastery (take 10 even when stressed) in all social skills? If you take changeling rogue at level 1, that's 40+(Int x4).

[Crake]

If you go human for the bonus feat, you can take a 1 level dip in egoist psion and trade your first level psion bonus feat for the changeling's minor change shape ability without the need to actually be a changeling, while also giving you some nice easy psionic abilities.

[redking]

If you go human for the bonus feat, you can take a 1 level dip in egoist psion and trade your first level psion bonus feat for the changeling's minor change shape ability without the need to actually be a changeling, while also giving you some nice easy psionic abilities.

Can you cite the source for that?

[Crake]

Can you cite the source for that?

The Mind's Eye: Expanded Classes Pt 2 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a)

[redking]

In that case, what about a dip in changeling rogue from Races of Eberron for 10 skill points at 1st level and skill mastery (take 10 even when stressed) in all social skills? If you take changeling rogue at level 1, that's 40+(Int x4).

Could also take the Adventurer Rogue variant. Gets feats as fighter in exchange for losing sneak attack. Some levels of Changeling Rogue with Adventurer Rogue variant, then a level of Factotum to pick up trapfinding (lost as a changeling rogue) and any remaining skills required for Chameleon. Looks like a strong entry.

[bean illus]

Divine feats are explicitly not turning undead though.

What you're saying is like arguing that if you have gold, you must be able to use it for everything anyone else uses gold to do, such as learning Wizard spells.

No, that's not what I'm saying, even though you claim that it is.

What I'm saying is, that the feat has a prereq:
"Ability to turn undead or rebuke undead"

It does not ask for a class level, divine caster level, or class ability, all of which other feats sometimes ask for. Among the snippets in the factotum text which support the argument that opportunistic piety qualifies for divine metamagic are:



you can ... channel divine energy

You can use this energy to turn undead.

You cannot ... if you have exhausted your daily uses,

you use this ability to ... channel positive energy

If you use this ability to turn undead, you act as a cleric

Feats such as collegiate wizard often have specific prerequisites such as "wizard level 1", whereas DMM does not.

Unless we were to rule that the quoted prerequisite "ability to turn undead" is not fulfilled by the quoted factotum text "ability to turn undead", then I'm inclined to argue that opportunistic piety does indeed qualify for divine metamagic.

[Nifft]

No, that's not what I'm saying, even though you claim that it is.

What I'm saying is, that the feat has a prereq:
"Ability to turn undead or rebuke undead" You're missing some content.

Here's the longer version:



DIVINE FEATS

In keeping with the idea of expanding the options of all classes, the feats in this category share characteristics that make them unavailable to single-class fighters. First, they all have as a prerequisite the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Thus, they are open to clerics, paladins of 3rd level or higher, and a member of any prestige class or any crea- ture that has that ability.

Second, the force that powers a divine feat is the ability to channel positive or negative energy to turn or rebuke undead. Each use of a divine feat costs a character a minimum of one turn or rebuke attempt from her number of attempts each day. If you don’t have any turn or rebuke attempts left, you can’t use a divine feat. Turning or rebuking undead is a standard action (unless you have a special ability that says otherwise). These feats often take a standard action to activate, but may require other types of actions as specified. Regardless, you may activate only one divine feat (or use the ability to turn or rebuke undead once) per round, though overlapping durations may allow you the benefits of more than one divine feat at a time.

(Emphasis added.)

The Turn or Rebuke class feature gives a pool of Turn or Rebuke attempts. You can spend a Turn or Rebuke attempt from your daily pool to take the Turn or Rebuke action (which is an attack).

The Turn or Rebuke action is what the Factotum can emulate.

The Turn or Rebuke attempts are what the Divine feats require to function, and they spell out that if you have no daily uses left you can't use them. Those come from the Turn or Rebuke class feature, which is not given by the Factotum class.


At best you could take the feat, but not use it, and that's not a great "best".

[bean illus]

I don't notice the words "turn undead class feature" there anywhere (until you reword it further on). What i do notice is this.

Thus, they are open to clerics, paladins of 3rd level or higher, and a member of any prestige class or any crea- ture that has that ability.

... and this.

Second, the force that powers a divine feat is the ability to channel positive or negative energy to turn or rebuke undead.
Which the foctotum can.

The fact that opportunistic peity can do more with divine energy than turn undead, is no different than how a cleric can do more with their turn attempts than turn undead. It seems that, the divine and devotion feats lend to the implication that a facto's "divine energy", also called "positive energy" can be channeled to other than turning.

And facto certainly has daily uses, that they can run out of.

Chameleon also doesn't have a class feature named turn undead. They specifically are called out as "mimic" a class feature. It doesn't even mention positive energy. Yet most assume that a chameleon can power divine feats.

This back-and-forth is fun, but unnecessary. I already repeatedly advised OP to "check with your DM, before attempting such shenanigans".

Nor do I see a problem in allowing it. A factotum has an upper limit of 8 to 10 daily uses. Since they are a T4(3?), notoriously short on feats, a facto 5 doesn't synergize well with cleric, and has limited spells per day anyway, I don't see how it could be overly cheesy Allowing one DMM would not affect game balance. Nightstick access is worse (imo).

[Nifft]

I don't notice the words "turn undead class feature" there anywhere (until you reword it further on). What i do notice is this.


... and this.

Which the foctotum can.

The fact that opportunistic peity can do more with divine energy than turn undead, is no different than how a cleric can do more with their turn attempts than turn undead. It seems that, the divine and devotion feats lend to the implication that a facto's "divine energy", also called "positive energy" can be channeled to other than turning.

And facto certainly has daily uses, that they can run out of.

Chameleon also doesn't have a class feature named turn undead. They specifically are called out as "mimic" a class feature. It doesn't even mention positive energy. Yet most assume that a chameleon can power divine feats.

This back-and-forth is fun, but unnecessary. I already repeatedly advised OP to "check with your DM, before attempting such shenanigans".

Nor do I see a problem in allowing it. A factotum has an upper limit of 8 to 10 daily uses. Since they are a T4(3?), notoriously short on feats, a facto 5 doesn't synergize well with cleric, and has limited spells per day anyway, I don't see how it could be overly cheesy Allowing one DMM would not affect game balance. Nightstick access is worse (imo).

Nightstick can be fixed by strictly reading RAW -- having a nightstick gives you +4 Turn attempts, by default same-source effects overlap (do not stack), so therefore you get +4 total for having any positive number of nightsticks.

This is the passage which I think prohibits Factotum from using [Divine] feats:


If you don’t have any turn or rebuke attempts left, you can’t use a divine feat.

(Emphasis added again.)

Factotums never get any daily "Turn or Rebuke attempts", what they get is a separate a way to take the "Turn or Rebuke action" (or do other things, the Opportunistic Piety class ability is both stronger and weaker than the Turn Undead class feature -- it's a separate category of ability, named as such, and behaving as such).

Factotums don't spend "Turn or Rebuke attempts", they spend Inspiration points. There's a limit on how many times they can spend their Inspiration points in this way, but it's always an Inspiration point which is spent -- and that's not a Turn or Rebuke Undead attempt.

To me this leads to an unfavorable conclusion:


At best you could take the feat, but not use it, and that's not a great "best".

The Opportunistic Piety text calls out that "your understanding of divine magic is too rudimentary" to make full use of even the Turn Undead action which is granted to you. What you're doing is not the same as what a Cleric would do, per the ability text, even if we ignore the other effect you can use instead.

To me this makes sense -- a Factotum is not someone with the "Turn or Rebuke Undead" ability, but rather someone who can fake it, and "faking it" is the conceptual core of the class.

[bean illus]

You've made a good argument. I would still rule yes on the basis of the points i quoted. I'm pretty liberal with factotum interpretations, in general. I also allow ranger combat styles to prereq for feat trees, which I've heard is a no go to many folk.

If a DM considered allowing it.
I'm trying to imagine what the most powerful abilities an epic factotum would add if it's allowed, or any multiclassing that might capitalize on it, but it seems like a fairly minor boost.

[Bphill561]

Someone already mentioned the extra spell slot feat, but I always wondered how chameleon would work with 3 levels of eldritch master added on (dragon 280). It grants the ability to cast a spell once per day at one spell level higher than you can currently cast in one class (plus a spell known at that level). This is a permanent addition once gained. Pre-reqs are just arcane casting which you could get pre-chameleon. You could still mix in versatile spell caster and sanctum spell. Eldritch Master gets a bonus metamagic feat at 3rd as well and the chameleon floating feat covers versatile or sanctum, so you only need to spend one level based feat (sanctum requires another metamagic feat). Then your 18 level feat for extra spell slot could be 9th, since you could cast a 9th level spell with sanctum to push it to 10th.

Not necessarily high optimization, but it seems more likely to be allowed at a table compared to low level divine metamagic/heightened spell extra spell slot tricks.

Would be kind of tempted to try:

Factotum 1/duskblade 4/chameleon 10/ EM 3 or 6 if going epic

Channel all kinds of touch spells. Duskblade is a spontaneous caster for the versatile spellcaster feat. The 4th level of duskblade is not needed, but is 4 caster levels to avoid the need for practiced spell caster to qualify for extra spell slot. And class skills don't matter all that much with Able Learner. Free combat casting feat from duskblade which is somewhat more useful at those early levels. Also until you can do dual focus, the dusk blade can cast in medium armor and you could go divine focus (again more useful at lower levels were medium armor might matter).

[Nifft]

You've made a good argument. I would still rule yes on the basis of the points i quoted. I'm pretty liberal with factotum interpretations, in general. I also allow ranger combat styles to prereq for feat trees, which I've heard is a no go to many folk.

If a DM considered allowing it.
I'm trying to imagine what the most powerful abilities an epic factotum would add if it's allowed, or any multiclassing that might capitalize on it, but it seems like a fairly minor boost.
If you're saying that you'd allow Factotums to use [Divine] feats in spite of the rules (which don't allow them to), then we have no problem. It's not broken in terms of power.

But I would like to establish agreement about what the rules say. Can you agree to that?

If so, I'll happily support your position that it's not problematic from a balance perspective to allow [Divine] feats to be used by a Factotum, even if RAW by default does not.

[Crake]

Someone already mentioned the extra spell slot feat, but I always wondered how chameleon would work with 3 levels of eldritch master added on (dragon 280). It grants the ability to cast a spell once per day at one spell level higher than you can currently cast in one class (plus a spell known at that level). This is a permanent addition once gained. Pre-reqs are just arcane casting which you could get pre-chameleon. You could still mix in versatile spell caster and sanctum spell. Eldritch Master gets a bonus metamagic feat at 3rd as well and the chameleon floating feat covers versatile or sanctum, so you only need to spend one level based feat (sanctum requires another metamagic feat). Then your 18 level feat for extra spell slot could be 9th, since you could cast a 9th level spell with sanctum to push it to 10th.

Not necessarily high optimization, but it seems more likely to be allowed at a table compared to low level divine metamagic/heightened spell extra spell slot tricks.

If you're going this route, you can just use your regular feats for the job. If you allow flaws, at level 1 you can nab able learner, earth sense, heighten spell, and earth spell, level 3 you can pick versatile spellcaster, level 5 with a bonus wizard feat you can pick sanctum spell, and level 6 you can pick up snowcasting. This gives you +4 spell levels ontop of what you can normally cast. Then, at level 8 (chameleon level 3) you use your chameleon floating bonus feat to get a spell slot +3 levels above your highest spellslot (6th level spell slot), and at level 9 you can use your 9th level feat to grab a spell slot 3 levels above that. You can now innately cast 9th level spells at level 9. Cast shun/embrace the dark chaos to get rid of all those now unnecessary feats (remember to save one though, so you can continue to learn more 9th level spells, and add 9th level spell slots, I recommend sanctum spell). I would recommend swapping the feats out for extra slots of 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, and 4th level so you have at least 1 of each level, giving you bonus spell slots from high ability score modifiers.

If you don't use flaws, you can still do it by level 12 by just skipping earth sense/earth spell. You can also skip taking 5 levels in wizard, and use your 9th level feat to take practised spellcaster to qualify for extra spell/slot

[bean illus]

If you're saying that you'd allow Factotums to use [Divine] feats in spite of the rules (which don't allow them to), then we have no problem. It's not broken in terms of power.

But I would like to establish agreement about what the rules say. Can you agree to that?

If so, I'll happily support your position that it's not problematic from a balance perspective to allow [Divine] feats to be used by a Factotum, even if RAW by default does not.

I'm not convinced. If you could find something that said "Turn Undead" class feature, or some other capital letter sort of thing, then i would be convinced.

But so far what I see looks too much like the wording in factotum, that says 'the ability to turn undead', and 'any creature'.

Factotum is it creature. Factotum has the ability to turn undead, and limited daily uses.

There are Divine Feats that require certain prerequisites, such as "access to spell domain", or "divine caster level 3", but not all of them. They could have easily made every divine feat require a divine caster level, but they did not. Therefore, it's my opinion that the "ability to turn undead" is "the ability to turn undead".

[Nifft]

Factotum is it creature. Factotum has the ability to turn undead, and limited daily uses.

Factotum has limited per-combat uses of Inspiration, and another limit of how often those per-combat Inspiration points can be spent to emulate this class feature or a few other effects. The feature describes itself as a crude approximation of what a Cleric does, and denies the Factotum control over the targets. That's the RAI distinction -- what you do is NOT the same as what a Cleric does, as made clear in the feature itself.


The resource a Factotum spends has a name, the resource name is Inspiration, and that's not the same resource which a [Divine] feat explicitly requires in order to operate. That's the RAW distinction.

Per strict RAW, you could take the [Divine] feat but never use it. A decent DM would deny you that frustration.


There is some partial functional overlap, but "partial overlap" isn't sufficient to declare equality between things.

RAI and RAW are pointed in the same direction here.

[bean illus]

You keep saying that, but so far all I've seen is a quote that says the ability to turn undead, which is the same phrase used in the factotum ability.

I understand that there are some people that will agree with you, I'm just not one of them. I don't see a distinction between the two quotes.

[Nifft]

You keep saying that, but so far all I've seen is a quote that says the ability to turn undead, which is the same phrase used in the factotum ability. All you've seen?

So you're claiming you didn't even see the text which "I keep saying"?


I understand that there are some people that will agree with you, I'm just not one of them. I don't see a distinction between the two quotes. You're claiming you don't see a distinction between Inspiration (an encounter resource with a name) and Turn Undead attempts (a daily resource with a different name).

Your disagreement really does not seem to be founded in any good-faith interpretation.


Please consider making a different argument than this plea to blindness, or at least conceding that the rules aren't why you allow this at your table.

[bean illus]

All you've seen?

So you're claiming you didn't even see the text which "I keep saying"?

You're claiming you don't see a distinction between Inspiration (an encounter resource with a name) and Turn Undead attempts (a daily resource with a different name).

Your disagreement really does not seem to be founded in any good-faith interpretation.


Please consider making a different argument than this plea to blindness, or at least conceding that the rules aren't why you allow this at your table.

I appreciate your desire for clarity, and your desire for agreement. I can give you neither.

For the reasons i have stated here.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24969878&postcount=28

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24970178&postcount=30

As I've mentioned, you keep writing "Turn Undead", and "class feature", which neither the feat prerequisites nor the "DIVINE FEATS" text seems to do. They both refer to the "ability to turn undead". Foctotum clearly has the ability to turn undead "as a cleric".

Do you have a rule besides the divine feat text, the facto text, and the feat prerequisites?

[Nifft]

I appreciate your desire for clarity, and your desire for agreement. I can give you neither.

For the reasons i have stated here.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24969878&postcount=28

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24970178&postcount=30

As I've mentioned, you keep writing "Turn Undead", and "class feature", which neither the feat prerequisites nor the "DIVINE FEATS" text seems to do. They both refer to the "ability to turn undead". Foctotum clearly has the ability to turn undead "as a cleric".

Do you have a rule besides the divine feat text, the facto text, and the feat prerequisites?

How many rules against do you need?

IMHO one ought to be enough, why is one not enough?


What the Factotum can do is not "Turn Undead", at the most generous reading it's "Turn Undead except (...)" and if you truncate that to remove the "except" you are not using the rules -- not even the most generous reading.

The ability has a different name ("Opportunistic Piety" vs. "Turn Undead"), the resource used is different ("Inspiration" vs. "Turn or Rebuke Attempts"), the mechanics are different ("cannot control undead" vs. "can control"), and the usage limits are different. The abilities are not the same thing. The flavor text agrees with them being different, too.

And even if "Turn Undead except (...)" were identical to "Turn Undead", you'd lack the resource explicitly demanded by the [Divine] feat rules text.

So...
- Different class feature names
- Different mechanics
- Different resources
- Different limitations
- Differences noted in flavor text

These things are not the same.

One such difference should have been sufficient to settle this; the fact that there are more differences is not a thing which should be required.

[bean illus]

How many rules against do you need?

IMHO one ought to be enough, why is one not enough?


What the Factotum can do is not "Turn Undead", at the most generous reading it's "Turn Undead except (...)" and if you truncate that to remove the "except" you are not using the rules -- not even the most generous reading.

The ability has a different name ("Opportunistic Piety" vs. "Turn Undead"), the resource used is different ("Inspiration" vs. "Turn or Rebuke Attempts"), the mechanics are different ("cannot control undead" vs. "can control"), and the usage limits are different. The abilities are not the same thing. The flavor text agrees with them being different, too.

And even if "Turn Undead except (...)" were identical to "Turn Undead", you'd lack the resource explicitly demanded by the [Divine] feat rules text.

So...
- Different class feature names
- Different mechanics
- Different resources
- Different limitations
- Differences noted in flavor text

These things are not the same.

One such difference should have been sufficient to settle this; the fact that there are more differences is not a thing which should be required.

Feel free to believe what you like.

But i notice that you again declare factotum can't "Turn Undead", which is not what the feat calls for.

The feat doesn't mention most of what you keep putting in quotes, and listing. Nor does the Divine Feat text. So i don't know why you keep quoting it and listing it.

[Nifft]

Feel free to believe what you like.

But i notice that you again declare factotum can't "Turn Undead", which is not what the feat calls for.

The feat requires more than that to use, and I've shown you where the rules say so. You have responded to this point previously, so it's weird that you're now pretending to not understand.

I'm choosing to believe that the rules mean what the rules actually say.

[bean illus]

The feat requires more than that to use, and I've shown you where the rules say so. You have responded to this point previously, so it's weird that you're now pretending to not understand.

I'm choosing to believe that the rules mean what the rules actually say.

What they actually say, minus your attempt to wrap quotes around things that it doesn't say, is "any creature with the ability to turn undead"

[Nifft]

What they actually say, minus your attempt to wrap quotes around things that it doesn't say, is "any creature with the ability to turn undead"

... is not necessarily able to use the feats. One major point is that your interpretation requires truncating the text to remove inconvenient differences.

What Factotums do isn't actually "Turn Undead", it's at best "Turn Undead except", which is different.

(The quotes are notation used for clarity.)

Plus, you know, all the other points I've made, all of which are valid, and any one of which alone would be sufficient to deny this interaction.

[bean illus]

Ok, let me look for "Turn Undead", in capital letters (as you keep writing it). I'll also look for the terms:

- class feature names
- mechanics
- resources
- limitations
- flavor

If i find those terms, i will bold them in red.

For my own convenience, i will color terms i feel support my interpretation in green.

Let's look at the factotum text:

Opportunistic Piety (Su): Factotums are legendary for the number of holy symbols, lucky trinkets, and blessed items they keep handy. As the saying goes, there are no atheists in the dungeon. Starting at 5th level, you can spend 1 inspiration point to channel divine energy as a standard action. You can use this energy to heal injuries, harm undead, or turn undead. At 5th level, you can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom bonus (if any). You gain one extra daily use of this ability at 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. You cannot use opportunistic piety if you have exhausted your daily uses, even if you have inspiration points left to spend. If you use this ability to heal injuries, you channel positive energy to heal a living creature of a number of points of damage equal to twice your factotum level + your Int modifier. The energy will also deal the same amount of damage to undead targets.

If you use this ability to turn undead, you act as a cleric of a level equal to your factotum level. No matter what your alignment, you cannot control undead, your understanding of divine magic is too rudimentary.

Did i miss something? I see not one instance of the terms you claim disqualify factotum from divine feats ...

Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way.

Since factotum references cleric, lets look there. Maybe i can find references to "Turn Attempts", etc, that can clarify for me.

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su)
Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has he power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells.

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

Well, i found the word "attempt", but darn it, it's written as a verb.

Perhaps if i check the Turn Undead rules (since factotum says "as a cleric"), then i can find references that include the terms that you list, and quote.

Turn Or Rebuke Undead
Good clerics and paladins and some neutral clerics can channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead.

Evil clerics and some neutral clerics can channel negative energy, which can halt, awe (rebuke), control (command), or bolster undead.

Regardless of the effect, the general term for the activity is "turning." When attempting to exercise their divine control over these creatures, characters make turning checks.

Table: Turning Undead
Turning Check
Result Most Powerful Undead Affected
(Maximum Hit Dice)
0 or lower Cleric’s level -4
1—3 Cleric’s level -3
4—6 Cleric’s level -2
7—9 Cleric’s level -1
10—12 Cleric’s level
13—15 Cleric’s level +1
16—18 Cleric’s level +2
19—21 Cleric’s level +3
22 or higher Cleric’s level +4

Turning Checks
Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a character can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

You must present your holy symbol to turn undead. Turning is considered an attack.

Times per Day
You may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. You can increase this number by taking the Extra Turning feat.

Range
You turn the closest turnable undead first, and you can’t turn undead that are more than 60 feet away or that have total cover relative to you. You don’t need line of sight to a target, but you do need line of effect.

Turning Check
The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.

Well, i found a few more references to "attempt", but again, the first 3 references were clearly used as a verb. After 4 uses of the term as a verb, the 5th use is as a (complex compound) gerund.

I'll check the Divine Feats rules:


DIVINE FEATS

In keeping with the idea of expanding the options of all classes, the feats in this category share characteristics that make them unavailable to single-class fighters. First, they all have as a prerequisite the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Thus, they are open to clerics, paladins of 3rd level or higher, and a member of any prestige class or any creature that has that ability.

Second, the force that powers a divine feat is the ability to channel positive or negative energy to turn or rebuke undead. Each use of a divine feat costs a character a minimum of one turn or rebuke attempt from her number of attempts each day. If you don’t have any turn or rebuke attempts left, you can’t use a divine feat. Turning or rebuking undead is a standard action (unless you have a special ability that says otherwise). These feats often take a standard action to activate, but may require other types of actions as specified. Regardless, you may activate only one divine feat (or use the ability to turn or rebuke undead once) per round, though overlapping durations may allow you the benefits of more than one divine feat at a time.

Ok, well here we see the (complex compund) gerund used in a more lax, spoken word style. This is a confusing English habit, that often confuses foreign language speakers who are studying English (I'll address this more, below).

What about the feat itself?


Divine Metamagic [Divine]

You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful.

Prerequisite
Ability to turn undead or rebuke undead,

Benefit
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting. Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change.

Special
This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat choose a different metamagic feat to which to apply it.

That's a fair amount of green supporting mutually alike terms between factotum, cleric, the Turn Undead section, and the Divine Feats section.

Meanwhile, the only time i see any of the references that your suggested interpretation uses at all, is when standard American English grammer is used to show titles.

Now I agree that, out of order, and out of context, this could lead a folk to believe that there is a rule or definition in DnD 3.5 for turn attempts. But the primary reference(s), being the cleric rules and the Turn Undead rules, have no definition of turn attempts as a noun, rather only as a verb. A verb which seems to have no other definition other than the number of times a day that you can use the ability to turn undead, and the fact that it may not actually turn said undead (hence the use of the verb attempt).

Whereas, though it's true that factotum doesn't mention attempts, it's daily uses refer directly to cleric, which refers to the verb "attempt". The factotum does expend a use opportunistic piety when exercising the ability to turn undead, which as a cleric, maybe attempted without succeeding.

*** What has become clear to me, is that a factotum has no divine spells. So, even if a DM decided to consider my rules shenanigans, a straight factotum cannot use DMM. After fifth level, one would be able to take divine vigor, etc.

As for factomeleon; though some Divine Feats call for a divine caster level, many do not. A factotum 5/ chameleon 1 can use factotum to prereq a caster level, and pick up echoing spell or craft wondrous item, etc. Then take DMM to fuel it.

Or, ...
Factotum 5/ chameleon 5/ sacred exorcist

... take extra turning and gain 12 turn attempts (is that cheesy enough for you?).

[Nifft]

Ok, let me look for "Turn Undead", in capital letters (as you keep writing it). I'll also look for the terms:

- class feature names
- mechanics
- resources
- limitations
- flavor

If i find those terms, i will bold them in red.

For my own convenience, i will color terms i feel support my interpretation in green.

Let's look at the factotum text:


Did i miss something? I see not one instance of the terms you claim disqualify factotum from divine feats ...
You did miss some things, and I'll format one of them for your convenience:



If you use this ability to turn undead, you act as a cleric of a level equal to your factotum level. No matter what your alignment, you cannot control undead, your understanding of divine magic is too rudimentary.


Factotum doesn't get "Turn Undead", they get an effect which emulates "Turn Undead except different" -- the effect is like Turn Undead, except different, as specified.

Which is also not named "Turn Undead", but rather Opportunistic Piety.

Which is also fueled by a different resource.

Which also has other effects in addition to emulating "Turn Undead".

It's different, because the mechanics, name, resource used, and so on are different. But it's related, because one of the mechanics is mostly (not entirely) similar to Turn Undead.



Also, and this is strange, I see you putting green on some things which ought to be red -- like you're claiming
Each use of a divine feat costs a character a minimum of one turn or rebuke attempt from her number of attempts each day. supports your argument?

It's one of the points I made against, and you were not able to argue against this point.

Factotums don't have a limited pool of turn attempts. Factotums have an Inspiration pool, and a limit on how often they can spend Inspiration on Opportunistic Piety, which can only partially emulate Turn or Rebuke Undead.

Again, Factotums have a different mechanic, with a different resource, named differently, with different (albeit related) effects.

The fact that the effect is (partially) related is not sufficient to overturn all the differences.

I am not going to go through your quotes and correct every green-to-red.



You're right that DMM doesn't work for both reasons as a pure Factotum, and that's actually relevant here because a Chameleon does get access to Divine spells.

[bean illus]

Factotum doesn't get "Turn Undead",


The feats don't have "Turn Undead" as a prerequisite. They have "Ability to turn undead or rebuke undead", as a prerequisite. Possessing both the ability to turn and rebuke undead is not required. Whether the ability to turn undead is referred to as rudimentary is not mentioned.



Factotums don't have a limited pool of turn attempts.

I can't find the term "pool of turn attempts" in the sources. Nor do is see the words mechanic, or resource in the relevant text.

Factotum does have the ability to turn undead, as a cleric. Whereupon reading the cleric text that ability manifest, by definition, as turn attempts.



The fact that the effect is (partially) related is not sufficient to overturn all the differences.

They don't seem partially related, imo. I don't see differences. They are as a cleric. They are attempts of the ability to turn undead, and exactly alike in every way. Alike enough that, though rudimentary, function equal with cleric level.

A paladin is 3 levels behind cleric, and can't rebuke, yet this ability which is clearly inferior to the factotums ability to turn undead qualifies as positive energy fuel for divine feats.

I notice potency has little effect on divine feats. The turn attempt of a first level cleric with 8 Cha has the same value as cleric 20 with a 30 Cha.

Again, i see why you would rule the way you are. Factotum rules are notoriously glitchy. Many people do, and will agree with you.

I see no wording in factotum, cleric, turn undead, or the divine feats that denies that factotum access to them. On the contrary, i see many exact quote phrasings throughout; and those before and after the deference to "If you use this ability to turn undead, you act as a cleric of a level equal to your factotum level." You now have turn attempts, or whatever handful of ways it's described.

Now, usually i see some new information, and find out I've changed my mind, and i quite expect that such a thing is possible here. But so far, i don't see what you see.

But that's ok, you don't need to convince me. I'm sure the readers have their own opinions.

[Zauriel56]

my gm has stated that I can use opportunistic piety to get divine metamagic as a feat. I was also thinking of getting a familiar, should I go for a regular one, improved familiar, or a item familiar? I checked and even though factotum has a "caster Level" that isnt specified as divine or arcane, I can use it for obtaining a familiar.

Right now I'm thinking
1st level - able learner
3rd level - font of inspiration
6th level - obtain familiar or item familiar
and 2 flaws yet to be determined for font of inspiration x2 for a total of +6 inspiration points. either that or improved turning as a feat for a reliquary holy symbol to use with DMM at later levels and extend spell, persistant spell, and then DMM later. should i take knowledge devotion? i've got +5 ranks in all monster identifying knowledges as well as collector of stories.

for items i know I need a headband of intellect +2, a magic melee weapon (rapier, fey-crafted) or magic range weapon (composite longbow with +1 str mod) depending on combat focus, armor (magic if I have the money), heward's handy haversack. I was also thinking a wand of lesser vigor, an alchemical silver bladed gauntlet, and a cold iron gauntlet.

I know that my spell-like abilities will determine what wands I get, but I've decided to do 1st level rogue - acf changeling, and then 6 levels of factotum, since the starting level is 7th, and was thinking of doing a total of 8 factotum, then chameleon. might not be optimized but I feel its thematic.

so weird point-buy with 20 points starting at 10 and each ability score point bought is 1 point of buy.
so my stats currently are
str - 12
dex - 14
con - 12
int - 16 (base) 18 with headband and 19 with 4th level bump
wis - 14
cha - 12

wis and cha i'd be willing to swap since changeling's are such a social focus, but want a well- rounded character, and opportunistic piety is based off of wisdom, i know I will eventually buy a reliquary holy symbol and nightsticks.

any wands, scrolls, oils, potions, or other magic items i should buy? or non magical? I put a rank in craft alchemy, craft weaponsmithing, and armorsmithing.

[rrwoods]

my gm has stated that I can use opportunistic piety to get divine metamagic as a feat
Why don't we pick up the opportunistic piety / divine feat discussion somewhere else:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628978-Opportunistic-Piety-and-Divine-Feats&p=24979505#post24979505

[Jazath]

All this talk about Factotum is giving me indigestion......

I find it quite frankly overpowered. A Jack of All Trades?

Shivers

[MaxiDuRaritry]

All this talk about Factotum is giving me indigestion......

I find it quite frankly overpowered. A Jack of All Trades?

ShiversMy favorite build is a skillmonkey caster that can also fight (dirty) in martial combat. It's possible to do without factotum; the only things I prefer about factotum are that it gets all skills as class skills (which the rogue should've gotten anyway) and that it gets +Int to all Str and Dex skills (especially nice, since Int-based manifesters are my jam).

Factotum/chameleon is one way to do this, but it's doable even without that. My preference is factotum/totemist/swordsage // shaper psion. It's harder to do without gestalt, but it's by no means impossible.

You can get pretty darned good in all areas, although you won't be as good as someone who specializes in those areas (although it's so close on the skillmonkey side as to be immaterial, given that all you need are class skills and lots of skill points, which Int is good for encouraging).

[bean illus]

my gm has stated that I can use opportunistic piety to get divine metamagic as a feat. I was also thinking of getting a familiar, should I go for a regular one, improved familiar, or a item familiar? I checked and even though factotum has a "caster Level" that isnt specified as divine or arcane, I can use it for obtaining a familiar.

Right now I'm thinking
1st level - able learner
3rd level - font of inspiration
6th level - obtain familiar or item familiar
and 2 flaws yet to be determined for font of inspiration x2 for a total of +6 inspiration points. either that or improved turning as a feat for a reliquary holy symbol to use with DMM at later levels and extend spell, persistant spell, and then DMM later. should i take knowledge devotion? i've got +5 ranks in all monster identifying knowledges as well as collector of stories.

for items i know I need a headband of intellect +2, a magic melee weapon (rapier, fey-crafted) or magic range weapon (composite longbow with +1 str mod) depending on combat focus, armor (magic if I have the money), heward's handy haversack. I was also thinking a wand of lesser vigor, an alchemical silver bladed gauntlet, and a cold iron gauntlet.

I know that my spell-like abilities will determine what wands I get, but I've decided to do 1st level rogue - acf changeling, and then 6 levels of factotum, since the starting level is 7th, and was thinking of doing a total of 8 factotum, then chameleon. might not be optimized but I feel its thematic.

so weird point-buy with 20 points starting at 10 and each ability score point bought is 1 point of buy.
so my stats currently are
str - 12
dex - 14
con - 12
int - 16 (base) 18 with headband and 19 with 4th level bump
wis - 14
cha - 12

wis and cha i'd be willing to swap since changeling's are such a social focus, but want a well- rounded character, and opportunistic piety is based off of wisdom, i know I will eventually buy a reliquary holy symbol and nightsticks.

any wands, scrolls, oils, potions, or other magic items i should buy? or non magical? I put a rank in craft alchemy, craft weaponsmithing, and armorsmithing.

I'm far from the best Optimizer here, so hopefully someone else will answer.

One thing that both i and Factotum have trouble doing is pulling out damage. By 7th level this starts to become a problem. They are behind on spell access, and the rogue level excaberates this issue. You will have only 2nd level spells for a long time (you get one 3rd at character 9th, and one more at character 12).
*You need a ruling from your DM on chameleon spell access (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=135.0). Can chameleon 1 cast haste, hideous laughter, etc? If so, you might consider going cham 1 asap, as you would both gain spells that other classes call 3rd level spells, and double your spells per day, as early as character 6 (which is 6 levels earlier in this build).

About FoI:
Did your DM tell you that 3 FoI = 6 Insp? There are several interpretations, but i believe that the most common is 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 (so, 3 FoI = 7 Insp). This is more important if a 4th FoI is added.

Facto is always short. They're short feats, short spells, short levels, ... . Using the Martial Rogue variant would give you a fighter feat (you won't sneak attack often, but might use the feat every swing).
Tripping only works vs some things, but reach is forever. Brains over brawn adds Int to trip checks, so improved trip would total +9 (if you get large, that's +14/+).

Knowledge Devo is good, if your table stacks collecter of stories with it, if not ... well chameleon only gets 4 skill points.

The factomeleon needs LOTS of chameleon levels (minimum 7, for double aptitude). Getting there pronto is a big deal, as is doubles your higher spells access, and power (what good is cunning surge, without power/damage?).

Check with your DM about UMD. Scrolls of Guidance of the Avatar, Improvisation, and Divine Insight, are all super useful, and stack.

About Divine Feats:
Do you even have Feats? Many divine feats need 2 feats to work. Extend, Persistent, and DMM makes 3. Even then, how many attempts will you have? Of course extra turning, but that's another feat. Facto 5, cham 3, nightstick 4, reliquary 3 = 15. ... ?

Of course, you can dip for more turn attempts, and feats. A cleric 1 dip nets 4 TU, knowledge devotion, extend spell, and more. But anything that slows chameleon progression better be good.

Changeling
Rogue 1/ facto 5/ cham 3/
Take Fell Drain at 6th, Ocular Spell at 9th. Use the floating chameleon feat for DMM fell drain, and shoot negative levels out of your eyes, at 9th level.
Maybe the spell Frostburn, lesser (1d12+5, plus cunning insight +6).

Chameleon has rapid caster level progression, but you need the levels. You'll have to decide which class you need after 9th.

Rogue 1/ facto 5/ cham 7/ fact +3(8)
(that's 16 levels, i advise cham 10 = 19)


Extra turning at 12th, if the nightstick ain't enough.

Get a lesser rod of extend, and use cunning surge to buff.
Spend your 15th level feat on FoI (for 4).

Or, Planar Touchstone, and Extra slot.


Skip the familiar.

[Kelb_Panthera]

All this talk about Factotum is giving me indigestion......

I find it quite frankly overpowered. A Jack of All Trades?

Shivers

Is that sarcasm? Factotum is barely functional. The actual rules text is kind of a mess and basically nothing of its class features are worth writing home about except for cunning surge. It's even got a pretty meager HD chassis; d8, 6+int skillpoints, average BAB, and poor/good/poor on fort/ref/will. If you don't seriously know what you're doing, you'll lag way behind pretty much every other class. Even if you do know what you're doing, you're either going to lag a bit behind everbody or you're going to have to pigeonhole yourself into being barely passable in one field and crap in all the rest.

It's a great "5th man" class in a party that otherwise has its bases covered since it can support the characters dedicated to their field adequately enough and even pick up the slack briefly if somebody goes down. On its own, even as the skill guy it's not fantastic.

It's pretty dippable though. The first three levels provide some nice little bonuses that any warrior or skill-monkey would be happy to have. Level 4 lets you get an extra sneak attack die and an odd second level spell, which is very nice for dedicated skill-monkeys. Cunning Surge -can be- worth working 8 levels into a build but that's a pretty steep cost.

OP can do what he wants but I'm still of the opinion that factotum 10/ chameleon 10 is a bad play.

[Rebel7284]

Even if you can use opportunistic piety to fuel divine metamagic, you are probably still better as cloistered Cleric 1/Human Paragon 3/Dread Necromancer 1.

Two turn undead pools. Both arcane and divine casting. Ability to take Alternate Spell Source to Persist your arcane spells too.

[Troacctid]

About FoI:
Did your DM tell you that 3 FoI = 6 Insp? There are several interpretations, but i believe that the most common is 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 (so, 3 FoI = 7 Insp). This is more important if a 4th FoI is added.
How do you get from "increases by 1 each time" to "doubles each time"?

[Crake]

How do you get from "increases by 1 each time" to "doubles each time"?

Yeah, 1, 2, 3, 4 etc has been the only interpretation I've ever seen.

[bean illus]

How do you get from "increases by 1 each time" to "doubles each time"?

Ida know, but apparently I'm wrong about that.

[Jazath]

Is that sarcasm? Factotum is barely functional. The actual rules text is kind of a mess and basically nothing of its class features are worth writing home about except for cunning surge. It's even got a pretty meager HD chassis; d8, 6+int skillpoints, average BAB, and poor/good/poor on fort/ref/will. If you don't seriously know what you're doing, you'll lag way behind pretty much every other class. Even if you do know what you're doing, you're either going to lag a bit behind everbody or you're going to have to pigeonhole yourself into being barely passable in one field and crap in all the rest.

It's a great "5th man" class in a party that otherwise has its bases covered since it can support the characters dedicated to their field adequately enough and even pick up the slack briefly if somebody goes down. On its own, even as the skill guy it's not fantastic.

It's pretty dippable though. The first three levels provide some nice little bonuses that any warrior or skill-monkey would be happy to have. Level 4 lets you get an extra sneak attack die and an odd second level spell, which is very nice for dedicated skill-monkeys. Cunning Surge -can be- worth working 8 levels into a build but that's a pretty steep cost.

OP can do what he wants but I'm still of the opinion that factotum 10/ chameleon 10 is a bad play.

Agreed.
I'm glad our DM decided not to include such a class. It's basically.......shambles of nondefined stats in my opinion.
a class that can basically do anything combine with Chamelon. Although i wouldn't know much, since we never played those classes.

Although I do have an Idea

An Rogue/Chameleon/Factotum/Epic Infiltrator
The ultimate infiltrator. Add a doppelganger as a race with a everchanging weapon......

[Crake]

Agreed.
I'm glad our DM decided not to include such a class. It's basically.......shambles of nondefined stats in my opinion.
a class that can basically do anything combine with Chamelon. Although i wouldn't know much, since we never played those classes.

Although I do have an Idea

An Rogue/Chameleon/Factotum/Epic Infiltrator
The ultimate infiltrator. Add a doppelganger as a race with a everchanging weapon......

Changeling or a dip in egoist psion would do you much better than however many racial HD and LA doppelgangers get.