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SangoProduction
2021-03-14, 12:17 PM
Unironically, this makes for a damned good healing sphere. Considering that's literally its entire purpose, I'd be... not incredibly surprised honestly... if it wasn't. For context, I really like playing support and healers in games, so I am very much the sphere's target market.
My impressions without even doing an "in depth" review is that it's pretty incredible at its job. It's definitely not an instant 0-100 effect like Alchemy sphere's Salve, but that requires a build dedicated to alchemy, and this sphere works no matter how much investment you want to put into it. I almost always at least dip a talent or two into the sphere.
I did have precisely one GM who complained about my overly healing focused build, and had me reduce Fount of Life pool by 1/2. Normally healing is something that no one complains about because of how reactive it is. Unless the enemies are getting healed. Then that bastard healer's going to die. Horribly. Don't ask me how I know.

Post-Review Analysis: Hot damn. May be my healer bias showing through, but those talents are off the walls.
Full or Partial Caster: Doesn't matter. With 1 feat, even a low caster can be a full caster. But yes, you want CL, because it grants you healing.

Flex Talents: All the (cure) talents, for obvious reasons. Break Enchantment to snap the barbarian out of mind control.


Ranking system:
(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: These make useful additions to the right builds.
(M) Meh: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.

<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(I) Impossible: Can't be rated because it is just not defined well enough to give a meaningful rating - it depends too much on DM ruling, or personal use. I'll just place it where I guess the average result would put it.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.

(G-S): Powerful talents that are almost, but not quite, universally useful or desirable.
(M-G): These are pretty reasonable talents of mediocre strength.
(N-M): It technically has a use, but the cost simply doesn't outweigh the benefit.



Base Sphere
Cure (M-G): 1d8+CL healing for a spell point. Relatively minor healing, but the average roll heals up a level 1 caster from basically unconscious to full.

Invigorate (N): It's a backup for when you run out of healing. CL temporary hit points, up to max hit points. Unless you are running some sort of meat grinder, this will almost never come up. Even if it did, it's literally 1 temp hp per level. If you need this, you probably need rest a lot more.

Restore (<S>): These conditions are so incredibly obnoxious. And you get a huge list of them, sometimes even restoring multiple conditions at once. (That's rare, but can theoretically happen.) And healing ability damage! At level 1! This is the sort of stuff you invest piles of gold into just in case it happens, and you get it as a rider feature to the sphere. Obviously, this requires both your GM to make use of conditions, and for you to have someone that you really don't want those conditions on, enough for you to give up your action to help them, but given that, even if you don't want to "heal," this can be a prodigious reason to pick up the sphere. Oh, and removing fatigue without rest... Very notable.


Note: All cure talents improve Cure's healing by 1 / CL. This is inferior to Deeper Healing in raw healing, on average (as it adds 4.5 + 4.5/5 CL instead). But I'd be disappointed if the dedicated raw healing talent wasn't the most efficient raw healing talent. Since this is common to all Cure talents, I will instead focus on what they restore, and the ratings will ignore the healing.

Restore Senses (S+): Confused is a really obnoxious lockdown. Dazed tends to not be long enough to worry about, unless their action is so much more valuable than yours. Frightened and Panicked are both "you lose" conditions. Blindness is one of the harshest (generic) numerical penalty in the game. So, none of these are stuns, but damn do you get a lot of really terrible things that you can get rid of.

Restore Capacity (<S+>): Stuns are deadly. If stuns are at all common, this is a must-get Restore. Entangled can be particularly horrible for your frontline, who's trying to keep enemies off your squishy, squishy healing self (especially if they are relying on Guardian Sphere's Patrol). And Grappled also removed AoOs for them, although that's much less common.

Restore Spirit (<S>): Much more efficient ability damage healing. Also gets to restore ability drain, and temporary negative levels to prevent them from becoming permanent. Suppressing a permanent negative level is pretty pointless as The Emperor fate talent does the same effect for hour / lvl. This is fantastic in an undead campaign, but otherwise, this really doesn't come up very often, and the most common way it does come up is handled well enough by the base sphere. Having a scroll or two of this talent might be worth the investment to cure temporary negative levels. Just in case.

Restore Health (M, F): Cure diseases and poisons. And spend only 1 rather than 2 spell points / actions to remove Exhausted / nauseated conditions. Conceptually, curing disease and poison is great, and you will be the talk of the town for curing the plague. But I don't think I've had a run in with disease in over 20 years. And many poisons can be essentially cured by treating their effects. So this isn't really providing you anything truly new or interesting, in most cases. Obviously, if you're facing a Plague Lord caster, you'd definitely take this, as it would prevent the cascade failure that such a build relies on.


Note: These are just rider effects whenever you use a life sphere effect on someone, and they last for 1 minute or until they take damage / get hit / fail a saving throw. This means you can freely grant these using Invigorate. These are actually fairly notable bonuses for rider effects.

Securing Vitality (S): Hey, you know the trip fighter who's keeping you safe? Make his job easier. The bonuses are certainly not as efficient as the other vitality talents. But it's much more targeted, and CMB is much more difficult to gain in large quantities.

Aggressive Vitality (G): +2 to attack and damage rolls. For context, if converted via power attack, that's equivalent of +8 damage, which is more than the average damage of a great sword, which is quite respectable.
High on Vitality (<G>): For normal difficult terrain, you may as well just get Energizing Vitality. But it's very useful for dangerous or exceptional terrain, such as an Entangle, very deep snow, or lava (which would burn you even from that distance, but shh, game time).

Sustaining Vitality (I): The gold value of these bonuses are pretty good. For circumstance bonuses, they are even better. But I don't think you actually care as much about them being defended, when you can simply cure most things they are being defended against.

Energizing Vitality (M-G): +30 ft to all speeds. If this were a more mobile game, this would be incredibly notable for doubling your speed, and can be done for free with Invigorate. Maybe if you're marching, and are time constrained? You get to go to more side areas before the timer matters.

Calming Vitality (N-M): More generalized than Combat Casting, but yeah. Still not great.


Break Enchantment (<S++>): Assuming that your DM regularly uses targeted magic (especially mind control), this is like a Greater Dispel Magic, dispelling all effects. And you can choose to exclude the positive effects, if you wanted to. You can even target the enemy! Mana sphere means nothing!!
Revitalize (C+): 10 hp / CL is enough to heal up even a fighter from unconscious in one spell point, even without pumping CL. What's more? You can start with this rather than the base Cure with a drawback. Sure, it's out of combat healing, but it really does ramp down the lethality of any game where you're not dying in a single fight...to almost nothing. And it gets better with investment. Holy hell.
Fount Of Life (S+): 10 hp / CL, but it can come out all at once, or in any portion you please. Granted, you have to fill up the pool before you use it. But it really does enhance your Cure efficiency by not risking overflow.

Resuscitate (<S>): Given that the campaign has any deal of lethality, you get 1 turn to turn it all around. Likely all you need.
Latent Healing (S): Lets you translate out of combat actions into in combat actions.

Self-Renewal (G-S): Swift action self heal/restore. Great for martial types dipping into life. Especially great if your DM likes to throw around conditions, since it's pretty hard to predict the right conditions you need to cure with Latent Healing.
Taste Of Victory (G-S): Basically same as Self-Renewal, except that you must hit the enemy... but you can target any ally... and if you get the killing blow, you save a spell point.
Affliction (<G-S>): Given 3 (cure) talents of investment, you can get more raw damage per spell point than even the Destruction sphere (but you don't get any disables). And you can hold the charge, if you're using melee touch. The conditions have a pretty respectable duration compared with Death sphere (for early game). Prime candidates for Extend Spell + Shift Cost combo. It does take a lot of investment to make this actually worthwhile though. Granted, the investment might already be on a path you are going down.
Greater Restore (<G-S>): If your DM regularly lathers on the debuffs, then this makes for very action efficient de-debuffing.

Empathic Healing (G): As a desperation measure, when you're low on spell points... well, you're kinda asking to get kicked over by a stiff breeze. But the healer can often take a lot of debuffs that would normally be really bad for others, and suffer few ill effects. And if paired with Affliction, you can spend your turn not only making your allies better, but your foes worse. Which is great.
Adrenaline Surge (<G>): Spend a spell point when affecting someone else to make them dance for you as an immediate action. Gets pretty nuts if you use the [mass] talent with this to grant everyone bonus actions for just 2 spell points (OK, 3 if you weren't already wanting to heal everyone). This can definitely make using your action to heal not feel so bad, if you're one to feel as such, as you get an attack out of it. It is unfortunately reliant on having a martial type who likes big singular attacks to get good value out of it. Trading a spell point simply to make an attack is generally a bad trade, especially compared with Destruction sphere. But it's action efficient.

Esoteric Healing (<G>): Assuming you've got a good reason to heal constructs and undead, this is a good talent.
Deeper Healing (G): As mentioned in Cure Talents, this is the most efficient raw healing talent. Also makes Invigorate much less terrible. The healing may be a little over kill much of the time, while the variance can cause it to be significantly less than needed.
Instill Life (G): For once I am making specific mention on an [instill] talent. Because in this case, it would be very useful if your team could heal their healer if you get knocked out.
Sudden Invigoration (<G>): I mean... It's like a poor man's Resuscitate... Except it needs more investment in Invigoration. But you get to use an immediate action to prevent it rather than a standard action fixing it. Potentially.

Lingering Resilience (I): Honestly, haven't had a single campaign so far where granting immunity to a removed condition would be useful. However, given that diseased and poisoned are both listed as conditions under Diagnose, it could be argued that you grant poison immunity after curing poison. Including potentially weak poisons you create specifically for the purpose of dispelling them...but your target would have to fail to save against it or else it won't be there for you to remove.
Restorative Cure (I): I mean... I assume this would be good. I've just never seen an application of both a significant duration condition and a bunch of damage you need to restore. I imagine it'd be pretty useful.

Greater Invigorate (M-G): Basically a requirement if you want any use out of Invigorate (especially early game). I would still probably not use it unless we were meeting a big bad, and I was really worried about potentially being one shot.

Diagnose (M, F): Almost never actually needed, and talents are pretty precious. But it does what it does without fail. Perhaps more useful in a campaign where communication between players isn't so expected. Or when you need to diagnose sick NPCs.

Sanctify (N): No thanks. I'd rather inflict sickened. Granted, if you were level 10, you'd average the sickened penalty, with no save. And at level 15, it'd be solidly in the green relatively. Of course, using Sickened as your measuring stick by level 15... Yikes. But it stacks. So does Sickened and Shaken and normally that won't be far from the end of the combat.
Painkiller (N): Woo. You cured a small bit of nonlethal damage.
Stabilizing Invigoration (N): lol. Wait... are... are you serious?


Benevolence (<S>): Immediate action + spell point to basically heal them up to full from your fount of life.
Wellspring Of Life (S): Increase your healing pool to upwards of 20 / CL. Which is a little ridiculous.

Extended Resuscitate (<G-S>): Gives you more time to recover the dead. Especially great if damage is extremely high and you aren't guaranteed to get them to life in one cast. If that's the case though, prevention is the best medicine.

Channel Life (G): Such intense overkill. Except that you don't need to only heal with it. And Mass Healing's targets is no longer CL capped. Imagine Channel negative energy + Affliction. Just leave a blasted, rotting field of decay in your wake.
Healing Touch (G): Putting aside Paladin, since Incanter can gain Lay on Hands, this lets you access that alternative pool of healing, and get a little more out of it.
Rain Of Renewal (<G>): Best case scenario? You're fighting someone with really difficult to cure bleed. This doesn't just cure bleeds. it's "all bleed effects ended as if you had successfully used the Heal skill to perform first aid." But this is a really minor effect otherwise.

Studied Healing (M-G): Allows low casters to still play with Life.
Endless Possibilities (M-G): Neat little bonus. Very, very short lived though.
Karmic Healing (I): Haven't taken a good look at the Kismet feats. Seems potentially decent.

Fount Of Mercy (M): Giving someone the option of spending an action to heal is pretty useful, especially when they go right before the enemies. But it's generally going to be a poor use of their action, and you shouldn't have left them in such a situation to begin with. Or you should have Benevolence up.
Fortified Healing (I): I tried reviewing Combat Stamina feats before. A lot of them are...meh. A few of them are interesting. I didn't even get through a good portion of them before quitting.
Vampiric Disruption (M): Saves a spell point relative to Self Renewal. About the best I can say about it.

Treat Injury (N-M, F): I mean, the only real use I can think of is to remove fatigue without using a spell point, so that you don't have to sleep. That takes an hour. So... you could potentially be like a walking Ring of Sustenance... I guess. But worse, because you can only work on one person at a time. Just cast the bloody spell if you need to not sleep so bad!
First Response (N-M): I don't know why you would pick this up rather than Ranged Heal. But if you're still consistently forced to use concentration, then you may hate it, but this will work.
Invigorating Rally (N-M): Invigorate. But it gets to be a rider effect on a rally.

Rigorous Defense (N): Not even worth going out of your way to get this feat.
Crescendo (N-): Spend a spell point to invigorate. Hah.
Wound Manipulator (N-): Spell point for invigorate...except it doesn't benefit from any invigorate talents, or CL pumping. But it does benefit from (cure) talents. And (cure) talents are better. It's just a really low efficacy and efficiency.

StSword
2021-03-14, 05:27 PM
Wow, lol, it's funny seeing Painkiller dismissed considering how well it pairs with Endure Pain from Guardian, makes a lot of healing free spell point wise for the party's tank.

SangoProduction
2021-03-14, 05:31 PM
Wow, lol, it's funny seeing Painkiller dismissed considering how well it pairs with Endure Pain from Guardian, makes a lot of healing free spell point wise for the party's tank.

When you heal real hit points, you also heal an equal amount of nonlethal damage for free. Thus, you double up on that already (with a higher healing number), and don't spend a talent doing so.

Rynjin
2021-03-15, 07:36 AM
When you heal real hit points, you also heal an equal amount of nonlethal damage for free. Thus, you double up on that already (with a higher healing number), and don't spend a talent doing so.

Right, but Invigorate doesn't cost a spell point. Meaning the Guardian user is converting real damage into nonlethal with the delayed damage pool, and you're curing it all for free.

Considering how ubiquitous Guardian and Berserker are in SoM builds (because they're both insanely efficient one talent wonders that double your durability, each) it's a talent that will get a lot of value in a game where everyone is using Spheres.

A.J.Gibson
2021-03-15, 08:42 AM
When you heal real hit points, you also heal an equal amount of nonlethal damage for free. Thus, you double up on that already (with a higher healing number), and don't spend a talent doing so.

True, but with painkiller, you can cure non-lethal without spending spell points, and you're granting temps as part of the same action. It is niche, admittedly.

SangoProduction
2021-03-15, 08:58 AM
True, Invigorate doesn't cost a spell point. But you are using a talent on that, when you could use it making your actual heal more effective, and thus need fewer heals, and save spell points. The same talent to enable (CL) nonlethal healing could have been spent to increase real healing by (CL). And if you've maxed that out, you're probably not worried about nonlethal damage overwhelming you.
Healers without spell points are much better off getting rid of the threat with SoP's fantastic cantrips than trying to slightly slow the tide. (With spell points / fount of life pool, they can match / exceed the incoming damage, when built to do so.)

If there is no threat remaining, then Revitalize probably takes care of all the nonlethal damage anyway. And if time is of the essence, you probably should be using a spell point to get a larger heal - granted that is at least not always possible if you're being run thin.

Like, I understand what you're getting at. I just don't see a situation where it's particularly worth the talent spent. Perhaps a more specific situation where you use light nonlethal healing would change my mind.

Kitsuneymg
2021-03-15, 07:45 PM
I really like using sustaining vitality with endless possibilities on a conjuration companion. Toss in reach spell or something and your invigorate triggers some really good buffs.

SangoProduction
2021-06-02, 03:38 PM
OK, I've tried my hand at focusing on Invigorate. I maintain that it is still nowhere near as efficient as simply having Font of Life and other Life sphere investments.

Deeper Healing for 2*CL as temp HP, and Greater Invigorate to make it last hours / lvl, and add my CAM to it.

So at level 2 I'm able to grant temp HP 7. And Deeper Healing does add +1d8, so it's not like it's totally wasted for real healing, and the hours/level is essentially an entire dungeon.

So, if I had spent the talent on Restore X rather than Greater Invigorate, the break even point is level 5, for 20 CAS.
But there is no risk of over healing and wasting a spell point. Also wouldn't be if you instead took Font of Healing. FoH is probably just super overpowered. But so convenient.

Of course, temp HP doesn't stack. So if you are ever missing more than 7 HP, you're either left with a not-topped-off friend, or you need to heal anyway. Not a huge problem for the game I'm in, where it's supposed to be low-op, and that sort of DPR is expected. And I wanted to be a healer without completely blowing up the game's op rating.

I'd say Greater Invigorate is probably... decent enough, especially at low levels, with high casting ability score... at a low-op campaign... But everything's decent enough at low-op campaigns.... no. Some things are simply too good for low-op. But point remains. That's probably not a good metric.

Does anyone have useful insights about their attempts at using Invigorate? I think I'd be more open to them after getting to give it an honest attempt



For a rework (nerfed) version of FoH, I'd probably do something like:

If you heal for an amount greater than the missing HP of your target, you may store the excess in your Font of Healing. Only one instance of excess healing may be stored at once. Trying to store an additional instance harmlessly dismisses the previous one.
You may draw on this stored healing to heal targets exactly as if using your cure ability, except you do not need to spend a spell point; expend all stored excess healing to heal the target for that much hp.
You may instead expend the points stored as part of a regular Cure or Invigorate action to additionally heal that amount. (You may decide to use this after rolling for how much you heal.) This additional healing is applied after the original Cure or Invigorate, and does not count towards excess healing.


The simple thing would be to remove Wellspring of Life, or to let it store additional instances of excess healing.
But with the additional instances, you add bookkeeping, and I'm not sure that's healthy.