The Astral Plane?

[jjordan]

Help me out here. I've been reading through the DMG and MToF and the Astral Projection spell and it all seems.... poorly conceived.

It's a realm of thought but creatures can physically exist there? I mean, the githzerai carving pockets of order out of Limbo makes more sense than the githyanki living on the astral plane. In your astral form thought is what allows you to interact with the realm so you use intelligence to control movement and.... that's it? It feels like the writers took a look at the astral plane material, decided it was too complicated to address, and just decided it was whatever they needed it to.

Are there any good resources for the astral plane? Should I look at some old Spelljammer material?

[Millstone85]

It's a realm of thought but creatures can physically exist there? I mean, the githzerai carving pockets of order out of Limbo makes more sense than the githyanki living on the astral plane.Except that the Outer Planes, including Limbo, are also realms of thought. Now, the DMG claims that each outer plane has a "border region" similar to the part of the Plane of Fire where you can find air to breathe, a ground to stand on, and even water to drink. The same could apply to the Astral.


Should I look at some old Spelljammer material?Spelljammer is about space travel on the Material Plane. It has nothing to do with the Astral.

[Unoriginal]

It's probably even more confusing in older texts, though.



Spelljammer is about space travel on the Material Plane. It has nothing to do with the Astral.

Indeed. Outside of how the Astral Plane is used as an alternative to Spelljamming by Githyanki and a few others.



It's a realm of thought but creatures can physically exist there? I mean, the githzerai carving pockets of order out of Limbo makes more sense than the githyanki living on the astral plane.

What makes you think thoughts aren't physical in the D&D cosmology? More specifically, they are physical in the Astral Plane. Which is why the corpses of dead gods are here. Also why souls travel through it until they get attracted by the Outer Plane which is the most similar to them.

[Millstone85]

Indeed. Outside of how the Astral Plane is used as an alternative to Spelljamming by Githyanki and a few others.And I have no idea how that alternative works. Is it just a matter of plane shifting twice, which potentially lets you reach any destination on your starting plane? Or do crystal spheres have individual color pools on the Astral?

[Unoriginal]

And I have no idea how that alternative works. Is it just a matter of plane shifting twice, which potentially lets you reach any destination on your starting plane? Or do crystal spheres have individual color pools on the Astral?

Mix of both. I would say that raids and exceptional travels use more the plane-shifting method, while more routine travels use the color pools or other portals if possible.

[Trask]

What makes you think thoughts aren't physical in the D&D cosmology?

To be fair, the universe is called the material plane :smalltongue:

This has probably been a problem since the beginning of the game, just because the idea of planes in our own world are higher MENTALstates of being, achieved by meditation and/or communion with the divine. In D&D it needs to contain the other system elements of D&D within it, like hacking stuff and plundering treasure and so they are places we can just step into with our physical bodies and feel more like alternate earths/dimensions as a result. Really I think they should be called dimensions rather than planes.

One solution to this, if it really bothers you, is to make it so the Outer Planes and the Astral Plane can only be reached through Astral Projection via the spell, and just make that spell (and potions and scrolls of it) more present in the setting. You could create all sorts of creatures that prey on thought-forms and challenge the characters even in their astral bodies, leaving permanent effects on their real ones, like someone waking up slain by the horror of a deadly nightmare.

That would be more in line with how planes are really conceived of in non-D&D sources.

[jjordan]

Spelljammer is about space travel on the Material Plane. It has nothing to do with the Astral. I was confusing it with Planescape. Oops.


One solution to this, if it really bothers you, is to make it so the Outer Planes and the Astral Plane can only be reached through Astral Projection via the spell, and just make that spell (and potions and scrolls of it) more present in the setting. You could create all sorts of creatures that prey on thought-forms and challenge the characters even in their astral bodies, leaving permanent effects on their real ones, like someone waking up slain by the horror of a deadly nightmare. Yeah, I was wondering if I was going to have to homebrew this and it looks like the answer is yes. Bummer.

[Millstone85]

One solution to this, if it really bothers you, is to make it so the Outer Planes and the Astral Plane can only be reached through Astral ProjectionWhich raises the question of how celestials, fiends and other astral/outer creatures would achieve "material projection".

Answers might include:

Finding a vessel (also called a "meat suit") through either forceful possession or voluntary channeling. Initially, the vessel would have its personality and mental stats replaced by those of the astral/outer creature. Later on, the vessel would fully transform into the astral/outer creature, now existing materially. Beings like aasimar and tieflings would have been created for the purpose of hasting this process.
Hijacking a resurrection spell. An astral/outer creature that keeps a soul from being returned to the Material can answer the call in its place. The result is similar to the previous method, unless the spell is one that doesn't need a corpse. In this case, the spell directly gives the creature its full material form. Thus, spells that bring the dead back to life, not undeath, nonetheless get the stigma of necromancy.
Being summoned. This typically only provides an ersatz of materiality, limited to the spell's duration.

And much like killing an astral projection only sends a soul back to its material body, killing an astral/outer creature on the Material only sends it back to its home plane.

[Trask]

Which raises the question of how celestials, fiends and other astral/outer creatures would achieve "material projection".

Answers might include:

Finding a vessel (also called a "meat suit") through either forceful possession or voluntary channeling. Initially, the vessel would have its personality and mental stats replaced by those of the astral/outer creature. Later on, the vessel would fully transform into the astral/outer creature, now existing materially. Beings like aasimar and tieflings would have been created for the purpose of hasting this process.
Hijacking a resurrection spell. An astral/outer creature that keeps a soul from being returned to the Material can answer the call in its place. The result is similar to the previous method, unless the spell is one that doesn't need a corpse. In this case, the spell directly gives the creature its full material form. Thus, spells that bring the dead back to life, not undeath, nonetheless get the stigma of necromancy.
Being summoned. This typically only provides an ersatz of materiality, limited to the spell's duration.

And much like killing an astral projection only sends a soul back to its material body, killing an astral/outer creature on the Material only sends it back to its home plane.

"Material projection", I like that. The old chestnut of outerplanar creatures not really dying when you kill them on the material plane actually makes a lot of sense once you have the idea that the outer planes are really not material. Theres a nice symmetry to it and the way astral projection works.

[JackPhoenix]

Except that the Outer Planes, including Limbo, are also realms of thought.

Outer planes are realms of *concepts* (associated with alignments in classic take), not thought.

[Unoriginal]

Outer planes are realms of *concepts* (associated with alignments in classic take), not thought.

I think the point was that those concepts are things you think, not physical objects you interact with (which are reflections of the Inner Planes/of which the Inner Planes are reflections).

[Millstone85]

Outer planes are realms of *concepts* (associated with alignments in classic take), not thought.
I think the point was that those concepts are things you think, not physical objects you interact with (which are reflections of the Inner Planes/of which the Inner Planes are reflections).Yeah, the nuance escapes me. In any case, 5e calls them realms of thought.
When discussing anything to do with deities, the language used must be highly metaphorical. Their actual homes aren't literally places at all, but exemplify the idea that the Outer Planes are realms of thought and spirit. As with the Elemental Planes, one can imagine the perceptible part of the Outer Planes as a border region, while extensive spiritual regions lie beyond ordinary sensory experience.

I also like the way the second part of OotS#1138 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) describes the Outer Planes forming from the Astral.

[JackPhoenix]

I think the point was that those concepts are things you think, not physical objects you interact with (which are reflections of the Inner Planes/of which the Inner Planes are reflections).

Not necessarily. You have Beastlands, which is about (certain interpretation of) nature and animals, rather than "thoughts", Limbo, which is pure chaos (not really related to thinking) and others.

[Unoriginal]

Not necessarily. You have Beastlands, which is about (certain interpretation of) nature and animals, rather than "thoughts", Limbo, which is pure chaos (not really related to thinking) and others.

The Beastlands are the concept of the wilderness and Limbo is the concept of chaos. Both only exist because there are people to think of them.

[Tanarii]

It's a realm of thought but creatures can physically exist there? I mean, the githzerai carving pockets of order out of Limbo makes more sense than the githyanki living on the astral plane. In your astral form thought is what allows you to interact with the realm so you use intelligence to control movement and.... that's it? It feels like the writers took a look at the astral plane material, decided it was too complicated to address, and just decided it was whatever they needed it to.
It's a transitive plane. There's not much too it, it's there so you can go from the material realm to the cognitive realms. Kind of like the ethereal let's you connect to the elemental realms.

Over time (meaning editions) it's gotten populated with other interesting stuff you might have as a destination. But what's important is the rules of travel, and threats that might delay, misdirect, or even kill you. Stuff that affects transit.

[Millstone85]

Kind of like the ethereal let's you connect to the elemental realms.Speaking of which...

If the idea is to make the Astral Plane more like its typical description outside of D&D, then a character's astral form should be able to over right next to that character's body. But that's not someting you can do in the official Great Wheel because the Astral does not overlap the Material like that, the Ethereal does.

So how about deciding that there is only one transitive plane? The etherealness spell would now function like astral projection, except that your astral form appears in the layer of the Astral that overlaps the Material. The Etherealness creature trait would be changed accordingly, except for creatures of which the material existence is only ectoplasmic.

Granted, that's a big nerf all around, and the phase spider might have to be removed entirely.

[Unoriginal]

Speaking of which...

If the idea is to make the Astral Plane more like its typical description outside of D&D, then a character's astral form should be able to over right next to that character's body. But that's not someting you can do in the official Great Wheel because the Astral does not overlap the Material like that, the Ethereal does.

So how about deciding that there is only one transitive plane? The etherealness spell would now function like astral projection, except that your astral form appears in the layer of the Astral that overlaps the Material. The Etherealness creature trait would be changed accordingly, except for creatures of which the material existence is only ectoplasmic.

Granted, that's a big nerf all around, and the phase spider might have to be removed entirely.

I prefer how there is two transitive planes, and that ghosts and the likes exist by being in the wrong one.

[Witty Username]

Help me out here. I've been reading through the DMG and MToF and the Astral Projection spell and it all seems.... poorly conceived.

It's a realm of thought but creatures can physically exist there? I mean, the githzerai carving pockets of order out of Limbo makes more sense than the githyanki living on the astral plane. In your astral form thought is what allows you to interact with the realm so you use intelligence to control movement and.... that's it? It feels like the writers took a look at the astral plane material, decided it was too complicated to address, and just decided it was whatever they needed it to.

Are there any good resources for the astral plane? Should I look at some old Spelljammer material?

The Astral plane is the foremost transitive plane, all forms of planner travel touch the Astral (in 3.5 even teleportation visited the astral plane briefly as part of its function). It is a network of portals that connect to every other plane in existence and multiple places within them. The only society is the Githyanki that use it as a staging area for raiding other planes and fortifying it to block Mind Flayers from using it for travel (and anyone else for that matter).
My favorite bit of Astral projection is that you can still use color pools to travel to other planes and you will still be projected (your astral cord will fuse to the color pool allowing you to remain tethered to your physical body across multiple planes) allowing you to adventure with very low risk if you don't mind missing out on treasure.

The Astral plane can be used to travel between most crystal spheres (some like Eberron are cut off from the planes), I think my favorite lore tidbit is the Githyanki raid on the world of Athas (Dark Sun setting) which caused the Githyanki to declare the whole world off limits because of how bad it went.

[LumenPlacidum]

Is it just a matter of plane shifting twice, which potentially lets you reach any destination on your starting plane?

This is essentially how teleportation used to be. A single spell that shunted you into the Astral Plane, where you then schlepped your way a bit, and then shunted back. Since time doesn't pass on the Astral Plane, you moved instantaneously.

Of course, if time doesn't pass there, then how do you get connected to the correct time when you come back? The Astral must be connected through all times, meaning that everything that has ever happened in the Astral is happening somewhere there. It's just unimaginably vast. Perhaps time is a spatial dimension there? You might be able to travel forward or backwards in time if properly trained.

[Tanarii]

Time passes on the universe. It just doesn't pass in the astral. That just means things don't age in the astral.

[Millstone85]

I prefer how there is two transitive planes, and that ghosts and the likes exist by being in the wrong one.In the proposed change, ghosts could be said to be stuck in the "Border Astral".


It is a network of portals that connect to every other plane in existence and multiple places within them.If the table page 47 of the DMG is to be believed, the Astral possesses color pools to the Outer Planes, to the Ethereal, and to the Material, but not to the Energy Planes, to the Elemental Planes, or to the Echo Planes.

I am not entirely sure what the logic for that is. I think the Energy Planes have just really been pushed aside in this edition, since ethereal curtains do not lead to them either. Then the Elemental Planes and the Echo Planes must be considered the purview of the Ethereal. In that case, so should the Material, but it is just that special that the Astral directly connects to it anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


My favorite bit of Astral projection is that you can still use color pools to travel to other planes and you will still be projectedNot true in the 5e version of astral projection, where "your body and possessions are transported along the silver cord".

Which is a whole lot less interesting than what you just described. :smallannoyed:


Perhaps time is a spatial dimension there? You might be able to travel forward or backwards in time if properly trained.An alternative approach to the planes that I rather like is having them be epochs of the same universe.

It goes something like this:

the Ethereal Age, when the universe is pure force waiting to be shaped.
the Elemental Age, when the universe explodes into primordial essences.
the Fey Age, when the worlds are young and full of vitality.
the Draconic Age, with periods of giant or human domination, but mostly dragons.
the Shadow Age, when the worlds become old and empty.
the Abstract Age, when all collapses around the conceptual asymptote of the Spire.
the Astral Age, when the universe evaporates into a mist of memories.

The Ethereal and the Astral also constitute the poles of time itself, allowing travel.


Time passes on the universe. It just doesn't pass in the astral. That just means things don't age in the astral.So it is not really time per say that stops in the Astral. Maybe it is a weird interaction of your physical body being where your astral form should be.

[Tanarii]

If the table page 47 of the DMG is to be believed, the Astral possesses color pools to the Outer Planes, to the Ethereal, and to the Material, but not to the Energy Planes, to the Elemental Planes, or to the Echo Planes.

I am not entirely sure what the logic for that is. I think the Energy Planes have just really been pushed aside in this edition, since ethereal curtains do not lead to them either. Then the Elemental Planes and the Echo Planes must be considered the purview of the Ethereal. In that case, so should the Material, but it is just that special that the Astral directly connects to it anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, in BECMI the astral only connected to the ethereal and the outer planes, to get to the user planes you had to go Material -> Ethereal -> Astral -> Outer. And then often to another outer, since they were nested. Since the great wheel already existed in AD&D long before this version was published, this was unique and took a bit to wrap my head around / remember when I returned to the edition later on. At the time I owned the ad&d manual of the planes and just used that instead.

Edit: huh, manual of the planes came out 2 years after BECMI's master rules. So it's possible I just didn't run any planar adventures from 85-87. That'd fit, I'd only been running games for 2 years so we didn't have any master level characters. (Technically we never did have ones that earned it.) But I may be wrong that the great wheel came first, I can't recall if it was published elsewhere for AD&D in general terms before MotP.

[Millstone85]

Yeah, in BECMI the astral only connected to the ethereal and the outer planes, to get to the user planes you had to go Material -> Ethereal -> Astral -> Outer.That would make a lot of sense with the current model.

If I am reading the books correctly, the 5e cosmology is really two wheels:

the Outer Planes, surrounding the Outlands, linked by the Astral.
the Elemental Planes, surrounding the Material, linked by the Ethereal.

So, if you could only shift to an adjacent plane, you would go Material -> Ethereal -> Elemental Planes, or Material -> Ethereal -> Astral -> Outer Planes. And that might actually make planar travel more interesting. It would also explain why ghosts would go the Ethereal to begin with.


And then often to another outer, since they were nested.Like having to go through Avernus and then seven more hells before you could reach Nessus?

[Unoriginal]

If I am reading the books correctly, the 5e cosmology is really two wheels:

the Outer Planes, surrounding the Outlands, linked by the Astral.
the Elemental Planes, surrounding the Material, linked by the Ethereal.


It is true it's two wheels, but not quite that configuration.

The Outer Planes, linked by the Astral, surround both the Material Plane (upon which are layered the Feywild and the Shadowfell) and the Outlands.

Also worth noting that the Elemental Planes are themselves surrounded by the Elemental Chaos.

[jjordan]

As I do more research on the subject I'm becoming somewhat daunted. I'd like for combat on the astral plane to rely more heavily on intelligence and wisdom, for instance. I can write up a few homebrew guidelines for this but then I find myself contradicting established rules and lore. Unfortunately I think my issues stem from a dislike of the accreted cosmology of D&D. I could deal with this by creating a separate cosmology. And I could reconcile this separate cosmology with the existing cosmology by casting them as different interpretations/explanations of reality put forward by different schools of thought. The remaining problem is the spells. The standard spells are based on the standard cosmology. I'd have to re-write the spells to accommodate multiple cosmologies or create variations of the spells for each cosmology. The latter seems like the most acceptable choice.

For my part I would prefer the astral plane to be the medium in which reality exists. It is a realm of concepts (the Platonic ideal chair would exist here as a concept, not an actual chair) and reality is given form from this medium (actual chairs, to extend the example). Threads of reality (replacing the idea of planes) move through this medium which surrounds and overlaps them. This makes it possible for threads/planes to be directly connected in places but also require travel through the astral medium.

[Naanomi]

The The Astral plane can be used to travel between most crystal spheres (some like Eberron are cut off from the planes), I think my favorite lore tidbit is the Githyanki raid on the world of Athas (Dark Sun setting) which caused the Githyanki to declare the whole world off limits because of how bad it went.
The adventure based on that isn't bad, degenerated gith and an ancient psionic weapon and all that.

Eberron is a lot like Athas: it is still a crystal sphere, there are just demiplanes around it that one would have to traverse first before getting to the recognizable transitive Planes

[Millstone85]

The Outer Planes, linked by the Astral, surround both the Material Plane (upon which are layered the Feywild and the Shadowfell) and the Outlands.Then what I am having difficulty with is the Material being surrounded by both the Elemental and Outer Planes, while the Outlands is surrounded only by the Outer Planes. Especially if, as I now see in the DMG, the wheels are concentric.


The default cosmological arrangement presented in the Player's Handbook visualizes the planes as a group of concentric wheels, with the Material Plane and its echoes at the center. The Inner Planes form a wheel around the Material Plane, enveloped in the Ethereal Plane. Then the Outer Planes form another wheel around and behind (or above or below) that one, arranged according to alignment, with the Outlands linking them all.That means the Material, Echo and Elemental Planes, plus the Ethereal that binds them, all take precedence over the Outlands for the center of the Outer Planes.

Maybe the Outlands orbits an ethereal bubble. Or maybe the Outlands is resting atop the bubble. Or maybe it is under it, giving the impression that the Spire is going to poke the bubble.


For my part I would prefer the astral plane to be the medium in which reality exists. It is a realm of concepts (the Platonic ideal chair would exist here as a concept, not an actual chair) and reality is given form from this medium (actual chairs, to extend the example).I remember an SCP tale doing something both funny and terrifying with this concept. The idea is that there is a limited amount of the medium and, from that perspective, a single human brain is bigger than an uninhabited galaxy. And so, as the human population grows, the stars are blinking out.

[Naanomi]

Then what I am having difficulty with is the Material being surrounded by both the Elemental and Outer Planes, while the Outlands is surrounded only by the Outer Planes. Especially if, as I now see in the DMG, the wheels are concentric.
The map in the DMG is conceptual, not literal... The inner and outer planets are not 'around' the infinite prime in any meaningful way. It goes inner->ethereal->prime->astral->outer on some dimensional axis; and positive->feywyld->prime->shadowfel->negative on another (more or less, the positive and negative touch everywhereish but only generate echo planes on the prime as far I can tell); with a few demiplanes adrift in some part or another, and the far-realm out there not existing in nonrational ways wherever it does or doesn't

[Trask]

The map in the DMG is conceptual, not literal... The inner and outer planets are not 'around' the infinite prime in any meaningful way. It goes inner->ethereal->prime->astral->outer on some dimensional axis; and positive->feywyld->prime->shadowfel->negative on another (more or less, the positive and negative touch everywhereish but only generate echo planes on the prime as far I can tell); with a few demiplanes adrift in some part or another, and the far-realm out there not existing in nonrational ways wherever it does or doesn't

This. There is a passage in the DMG that says as much, planar models are just that, models. There is no way to know for certain "where" the planes are exactly, or if they even exist in physical space in relation to each other, they aren't like planets in that regard, it's not astronomy, it's more like going to another universe entirely, hence the whole "multiverse" terminology of D&D.

Terms like "inner, outer, upper, and lower" in regards to planes is more of a metaphysical statement of how they exist in relation to the material plane and human existence. It's a metaphysical truth that heaven is above hell, even if there is no literal spatial relationship between them.

[Unoriginal]

Then what I am having difficulty with is the Material being surrounded by both the Elemental and Outer Planes, while the Outlands is surrounded only by the Outer Planes. Especially if, as I now see in the DMG, the wheels are concentric.

[...]

Maybe the Outlands orbits an ethereal bubble. Or maybe the Outlands is resting atop the bubble. Or maybe it is under it, giving the impression that the Spire is going to poke the bubble.

If using the Great Wheel model, I think it's best to conceptualise the Outlands as the end of the axis on which the wheel turns, while the Prime Material is the actual center of the wheel's circumference.

In a metaphysical sense, the Outlands are what happens when the Outer Planes' influences are perfectly balanced, as opposed to the Material Plane from which the Outer Planes radiate


The map in the DMG is conceptual, not literal... The inner and outer planets are not 'around' the infinite prime in any meaningful way. It goes inner->ethereal->prime->astral->outer on some dimensional axis; and positive->feywyld->prime->shadowfel->negative on another (more or less, the positive and negative touch everywhereish but only generate echo planes on the prime as far I can tell); with a few demiplanes adrift in some part or another, and the far-realm out there not existing in nonrational ways wherever it does or doesn't

Indeed. The Great Wheel isn't even the only existing planar model, it's just the most prevalent one because it's mainstream in Sigil.

It's more or less the setting's equivalent of the "atom as planet with electrons gravitating as moon" diagrams.

[Temperjoke]

I personally like the idea of a triple layer sort of thing (admittedly, I'm not versed in most of D&D's history, so this is just my observation of 5e). The core of it is the Material plane, with the feywild and shadowfell directly linked. Then you have the elemental planes surrounding that core, with the Ethereal plane oozing around between the two. Then around that you have the Outer planes, with the Astral plane oozing around between those layers. They aren't perfectly solid layers, so one can go directly from one spot to another section via magic.

[Millstone85]

The map in the DMG is conceptual, not literal... The inner and outer planets are not 'around' the infinite prime in any meaningful way.
This. There is a passage in the DMG that says as much, planar models are just that, models.
Indeed. The Great Wheel isn't even the only existing planar model, it's just the most prevalent one because it's mainstream in Sigil.Technically correct but, in the recent words of Deerie the Cherub, yeah no, sorry guys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t91gbiKKNY). This cosmology is all about planes surrounding other planes and the pretty maps you can make out of it. :smallbiggrin:


It goes inner->ethereal->prime->astral->outer on some dimensional axis; and positive->feywyld->prime->shadowfel->negative on another (more or less)So the World Axis (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/9/91/4e_FR_cosmology.jpg) from 4e, with the Material and its echoes being sandwiched between an elemental blob and a spiritual blob, except that now each blob has been restored to its four cardinal points (fire/air/water/earth for one, law/good/chaos/evil for the other).

[Segev]

This is a subset of a subject I have been thinking on off and on for a while now.

Things on the Outer Planes (including the Astral) are made up of different material than the Material Plane's occupants. In fact, they're not made up of "material" at all, but rather philosophical energies. There are analogs to all of the material "things" because most are agnostic to the philosophies of the realms, and the philosophies are shaped by minds that originate from the Material, but the fire burning in your camp on the Outlands is not made of elemental fire; it's some aspect of neutrality forming into a good facsimile thereof.

Astral projection works because the Astral Plane is the Plane of Thought. Thinking creatures already exist to some degree there, even if the color pools separate the silver sea from the material plane. In descriptions that include a "near" and "far" astral, the color pools would be on the borders. In those without, the nature of the Plane of Thought is likely something that causes it to have concepts be geography and direction. So normally, a creature's mind is making up myriad, possibly wildly-separated points in the Plane. Either way, astrally projecting pulls your thoughts together and shapes the geography of the silver sea such that you exist in your astral form there. Your body remains material, and you're just allowing your mind, already on the astral plane, to be aware of it and explore it more directly. The silver cord that holds your soul to your body tethers your thoughts to a material world you cannot perceive. When you go to other Outer Planes, your astral form pulls in concepts of that plane to form a philosophical body out of them. When you go to Inner Planes (including other layers of the Prime), the spell is doing the hard work of pulling material together to make a faux body to possess.

Actually plane shifting, then, where you physically go somewhere...? You're not really physically moving. You're re-aligning your very material essence, at least when going to outer planes. (Inner planes it's more a matter of tuning yourself to the right elemental sources, because you can be material on any of the elemental planes; they are planes of matter and real energy, not thought and philosophy.)

So when you plane shift to the Astral Plane, you're actively altering your very physical being to be a pure mental construct. You're not so much "physically there" as you've changed your physical body from supporting a mind to your mind supporting a physical body. It's like "plane shifting" into a computer game that exists only as a model in a suite of hardware. And the difference between astral projecting and plane shifting is the difference between a full-dive VR and actually digitizing the body.

There are a lot of holes and problems with this formulation; I'm still working on it. Most notably the fact that plane shift is apparently easier than astral projection, when it seems the opposite should be the case.




Incidentally, I'm surprised more wizards don't approach the immortality problem by plane shifting to the Astral, building themselves a heavily-defended mausoleum, and then casting astral projection to leave their body in suspended, ageless animation in the timeless silver sea while they go about their business on the Prime or any other plane they choose.

[Naanomi]

from 4e, with the Material and its echoes being sandwiched between an elemental blob and a spiritual blob, except that now each blob has been restored to its four cardinal points (fire/air/water/earth for one, law/good/chaos/evil for the other).
Well... More the 2e model... Where the spiritual blob leads to a distinct 'place' instead of just unconnected islands floating around the astral, and the inner planes being somewhat contained in (infinite) configurations

But the broad 'elemental creating substance that forms the prime that has inhabitants that create thoughts and beliefs that form the outer planes' has been the model in some form since... Just pre-planescape 2e really.

Although this is more like the 1e model in some ways, with the positive and negative energy planes overlaying everything instead of being attached to the inner planes like 2e

[Unoriginal]

Incidentally, I'm surprised more wizards don't approach the immortality problem by plane shifting to the Astral, building themselves a heavily-defended mausoleum, and then casting astral projection to leave their body in suspended, ageless animation in the timeless silver sea while they go about their business on the Prime or any other plane they choose.

Most wizards would be too worried about the various things that could get to their body while they do that to try.

Some wizards probably still do it, because arrogance and "but think of the potential!" craziness are as much parts of wizardry as magic is, but they just as probably get used as object lessons by other wizards when they get eaten by Astral Dreadnoughts or have a bunch of adventurers pillage their mausoleums.

[Segev]

Most wizards would be too worried about the various things that could get to their body while they do that to try.

Some wizards probably still do it, because arrogance and "but think of the potential!" craziness are as much parts of wizardry as magic is, but they probably get used as object lessons by other wizards when they get eaten by Astral Dreadnoughts or have a bunch of adventurers pillage their mausoleums.

Not sure how a private redoubt on the Astral is less secure than a private Demiplane, which most variations on this recommend. Just set up your defenses to include alarms if anything is coming for your body so that you are alerted and can return to defend yourself. Anything that STILL can get to you could get you even if you were in your body.

[Unoriginal]

Not sure how a private redoubt on the Astral is less secure than a private Demiplane, which most variations on this recommend. Just set up your defenses to include alarms if anything is coming for your body so that you are alerted and can return to defend yourself. Anything that STILL can get to you could get you even if you were in your body.

A private Demiplane is much harder to access than any specific point in the Astral Sea.

[Naanomi]

A private Demiplane is much harder to access than any specific point in the Astral Sea.
The deep ethereal is historically harder to navigate than the astral, which makes it more secure. Ethereal demiplanes are also traditionally easier to make stable than astral demiplanes (which tend to rely on psionics to create, and only last at most as long as the creating mind survives)

[Segev]

A private Demiplane is much harder to access than any specific point in the Astral Sea.I'm not so sure about that. "I cast plane shift to the demiplane of the Wizard Wally," will take you to a random point on that demiplane and will put you no further than the edge of the demiplane from Wally's body or whatever else he's protecting there. "I cast plane shift to the Astral Plane, where I know Wizard Wally has a tower-lab," puts you somewhere on the Astral Plane, and now you have to FIND the tower-lab of Wizard Wally.


The deep ethereal is historically harder to navigate than the astral, which makes it more secure. Ethereal demiplanes are also traditionally easier to make stable than astral demiplanes (which tend to rely on psionics to create, and only last at most as long as the creating mind survives)
This is interesting; I didn't know that demiplanes on the Astral were possible.

Also, if the wizard (or psion) is using the demiplane to house his body, presumably he doesn't much care what happens to the demiplane after he dies.

[Naanomi]

This is interesting; I didn't know that demiplanes on the Astral were possible
The genesis metacreativity power could create them (including a few creatures that could use it as a psi-like ability). I think that some of the time demiplanes from Chronomancer manifest in the Astral as well (the ones that expressly leave the temporal prime/temporal energy plane)

[Unoriginal]

The deep ethereal is historically harder to navigate than the astral, which makes it more secure.

But it also makes it harder for the wizard who wants to build a sanctum there.

[jjordan]

This is a subset of a subject I have been thinking on off and on for a while now.

Things on the Outer Planes (including the Astral) are made up of different material than the Material Plane's occupants. In fact, they're not made up of "material" at all, but rather philosophical energies. There are analogs to all of the material "things" because most are agnostic to the philosophies of the realms, and the philosophies are shaped by minds that originate from the Material, but the fire burning in your camp on the Outlands is not made of elemental fire; it's some aspect of neutrality forming into a good facsimile thereof.
I think of it as different planes shape the base energy (for lack of a better word) into different arrangements. I compound this by saying that a consciousness applies filters/interprets sensory inputs to make things comprehensible. So fire from a material plane may be conflated with fire from an elemental plane by a consciousness which is attempting to make sense of what it perceives without having access to all the data (as true sight might provide).


Astral projection works because the Astral Plane is the Plane of Thought. Thinking creatures already exist to some degree there, even if the color pools separate the silver sea from the material plane. In descriptions that include a "near" and "far" astral, the color pools would be on the borders. In those without, the nature of the Plane of Thought is likely something that causes it to have concepts be geography and direction. So normally, a creature's mind is making up myriad, possibly wildly-separated points in the Plane. Either way, astrally projecting pulls your thoughts together and shapes the geography of the silver sea such that you exist in your astral form there. Your body remains material, and you're just allowing your mind, already on the astral plane, to be aware of it and explore it more directly. The silver cord that holds your soul to your body tethers your thoughts to a material world you cannot perceive. When you go to other Outer Planes, your astral form pulls in concepts of that plane to form a philosophical body out of them. When you go to Inner Planes (including other layers of the Prime), the spell is doing the hard work of pulling material together to make a faux body to possess.
I like this but if falls apart for me, a little, because traditional astral projection was more about moving the soul/consciousness around the material world, time, and only in some cases through space to other realities. It particularly falls apart, for me, when you get to the other planes. I can accept that a magic spell allows for the creation of a new physical form but really feel like it ought to be harder. And the implications are... interesting. I mean, if I plane shift to the same plane I can form a new body which has all the abilities of my regular body but is timeless? Obviously there's a mechanism in place to prevent that. Which raises other interesting questions.

In my conception of the cosmology threads of reality are somewhat divergent. So the plane of elemental fire is very different from a material plane and it takes work/energy for a creature to exist on a non-native thread. The more alien the threads are, the more work it takes. So a lot of creatures might want to remain in a non-corporeal form. And sufficiently powerful creatures will warp the reality around them, possibly even destroying it if they remain long enough (e.g. gods).


Actually plane shifting, then, where you physically go somewhere...? You're not really physically moving. You're re-aligning your very material essence, at least when going to outer planes. (Inner planes it's more a matter of tuning yourself to the right elemental sources, because you can be material on any of the elemental planes; they are planes of matter and real energy, not thought and philosophy.)

So when you plane shift to the Astral Plane, you're actively altering your very physical being to be a pure mental construct. You're not so much "physically there" as you've changed your physical body from supporting a mind to your mind supporting a physical body. It's like "plane shifting" into a computer game that exists only as a model in a suite of hardware. And the difference between astral projecting and plane shifting is the difference between a full-dive VR and actually digitizing the body.

There are a lot of holes and problems with this formulation; I'm still working on it. Most notably the fact that plane shift is apparently easier than astral projection, when it seems the opposite should be the case.
Yes!

Good stuff.

[JackPhoenix]

Incidentally, I'm surprised more wizards don't approach the immortality problem by plane shifting to the Astral, building themselves a heavily-defended mausoleum, and then casting astral projection to leave their body in suspended, ageless animation in the timeless silver sea while they go about their business on the Prime or any other plane they choose.

That may be because it doesn't work:
If you enter a new plane or return to the plane you were on when casting this spell, your body and possessions are transported along the silver cord, allowing you to re-enter your body as you enter the new plane.


I'm not so sure about that. "I cast plane shift to the demiplane of the Wizard Wally," will take you to a random point on that demiplane and will put you no further than the edge of the demiplane from Wally's body or whatever else he's protecting there. "I cast plane shift to the Astral Plane, where I know Wizard Wally has a tower-lab," puts you somewhere on the Astral Plane, and now you have to FIND the tower-lab of Wizard Wally.

That's great. Now, do you have the metal rod that serves as material component for Plane Shift attuned to Wally's demiplane? How did you get it? Unlike its Astral-attuned counterpart, that one is propably much harder to get. And if you want to shift to Wally's tower, you'll end up in or near Wally's tower, not in a random spot anywhere on Astral plane.

[Naanomi]

That's great. Now, do you have the metal rod that serves as material component for Plane Shift attuned to Wally's demiplane?
No, I used Wish to ignore the material component

[Unoriginal]

No, I used Wish to ignore the material component

That means you're impressively more powerful than the weakest person able to find Wally's Astral Crypt.

[Naanomi]

That means you're impressively more powerful than the weakest person able to find Wally's Astral Crypt.
Perhaps, though I would suggest not more powerful than someone who should be hunting down 'I decided to live forever by creating a demiplane and fortifying my body into it' would/should be

[Segev]

That may be because it doesn't work:

Huh, that's different. My mistake; earlier editions created a new body on new planes, and only put you in your own real body if you returned to the plane you'd left it on.

[Witty Username]

Not true in the 5e version of astral projection, where "your body and possessions are transported along the silver cord".

Which is a whole lot less interesting than what you just described. :smallannoyed:

Hm, I share your frustration. I must have deleted the 5e version from my mind after reading it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Huh, that's different. My mistake; earlier editions created a new body on new planes, and only put you in your own real body if you returned to the plane you'd left it on.

IMO, this change is good. No more "I hide out and let my astral body take the risks. No more worrying about duplicating equipment cheese.


On the main topic, I collapsed the planes heavily. The "travel" portions of the planes are now the Shadow Border, which lubricates the intersection of the Mortal (or material) and the other planes. All abilities that reference astral or ethereal travel refer to this plane instead. Time passes, but people don't age. And time passes inconsistently, at a rate that ebbs and flows sporadically.

All the upper (and most of the lower) planes are now the Astral. Since I ditched cosmological alignment, devils, angels, and gods all live there, but all require energy input to stay coherent. None of them are truly physical, and the bodies they wear on the mortal are created by the spells that transport them. But they're basically just housings so killing one on the mortal doesn't generally happen. Demons still occupy the Abyss, but that's more like a wound/prison. And they all got there by choice or by being eaten by a demon.

The feywild and shadowfell (but quite different), plus all afterlives are now part of the Shadow proper, which only exists around inhabited planets. As is the Waste, basically the Abyss's influence and beachhead for demons. Spreads when people summon them or undead or do blood magic. It's basically hell. But you can end up there just by dying in the wrong spot. If you've been real faithful, a god's agent might try to intercept and lead you to one of their enclaves elsewhere. The Shadow proper is malleable somewhat like limbo. That's where the dead get their "new" bodies from.

Demi planes are all Astral now, unless you're special and make an abyssal or elemental one

[jjordan]

So I've read the 2e Planescape: A Guide to the Astral Planes, the 4e Manual of the Planes, and 4e The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Plane as well as re-reading the 5e DMG sections on the planes, and the astral plan in particular.

I'm forced to admit WotC did a good job of sticking to their core 5e design philosophy ('keep it simple, stupid') in regards to this. Rather than making the different planes mechanically different (as in previous editions) they are simply the same with some different window dressing and two or three different environmental effects. Combat on the astral plane is the same as combat on the material plane except for the silver cord variation.

Not my preference, but I'll withdraw to the hombrew area to address my concerns. On the bright side, the Manual of the Planes provided some good ideas on homebrewing your own cosmologies.

[Unoriginal]

Perhaps, though I would suggest not more powerful than someone who should be hunting down 'I decided to live forever by creating a demiplane and fortifying my body into it' would/should be

Indeed. The point was that doing there was a reason why going through the whole demiplane thing is both preferable and requires more power than just building something in the Astral Sea.

[Naanomi]

Indeed. The point was that doing there was a reason why going through the whole demiplane thing is both preferable and requires more power than just building something in the Astral Sea.
Seems like a bit of a tactical decision... Safety from being bothered by riffraff, but more easily pinpointable by wish-capable opponents

[Unoriginal]

Seems like a bit of a tactical decision... Safety from being bothered by riffraff, but more easily pinpointable by wish-capable opponents

Anyone capable of Plane Shift can get to something built in the Astral, and it's just as vulnerable to Wish as the demiplane is.

[Naanomi]

Anyone capable of Plane Shift can get to something built in the Astral, and it's just as vulnerable to Wish as the demiplane is.
Fair, I forget how accurate Plane Shift is in this edition

[Segev]

Fair, I forget how accurate Plane Shift is in this edition

It's not, particularly, but their point is that it's hard to plane shift to a specific demiplane because of the material component requirement requiring an unknown amount of research to discover.

[Naanomi]

It's not, particularly, but their point is that it's hard to plane shift to a specific demiplane because of the material component requirement requiring an unknown amount of research to discover.
Which gets ignored with Wish

[Segev]

Which gets ignored with Wish

Yes...

The point being discussed is whether a character who cannot yet cast wish but can cast plane shift is a greater threat to somebody who has a demiplane vs. somebody with their sanctum secreted somewhere in the Astral Plane.

Wish means you don't actually care whether your quarry is on the Astral or in a private demiplane or hiding in the basement right next door: you get transported to his lair perfectly by your wish. Plane shift, on the other hand, means that if you CAN figure out the material component for the demiplane, you get much closer to his lair than if his lair is on the Astral. On the Astral, you appear hundreds of miles away in a random direction. On a demiplane, it's probably small enough that you can see the lair from wherever you appear. But, getting that material component knowledge is nontrivial, which makes the question of whether the demiplane is more secure not a definite "no," but instead a probable "yes." Depending on how hard it is to research what special material that forked rod needs to be made of.

[Naanomi]

YesOn the Astral, you appear hundreds of miles away in a random direction.
My reading of Planeshift makes it seem *much* more accurate than that

[Unoriginal]

Yes...

The point being discussed is whether a character who cannot yet cast wish but can cast plane shift is a greater threat to somebody who has a demiplane vs. somebody with their sanctum secreted somewhere in the Astral Plane.

Wish means you don't actually care whether your quarry is on the Astral or in a private demiplane or hiding in the basement right next door: you get transported to his lair perfectly by your wish. Plane shift, on the other hand, means that if you CAN figure out the material component for the demiplane, you get much closer to his lair than if his lair is on the Astral. On the Astral, you appear hundreds of miles away in a random direction. On a demiplane, it's probably small enough that you can see the lair from wherever you appear. But, getting that material component knowledge is nontrivial, which makes the question of whether the demiplane is more secure not a definite "no," but instead a probable "yes." Depending on how hard it is to research what special material that forked rod needs to be made of.


My reading of Planeshift makes it seem *much* more accurate than that


The spell's description says "You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as The City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of The Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach The City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Street of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across The Sea of Fire, at the DM's discretion."

So if you want to go to Wally's Astral Crypt, you will be in the Astral Sea either in the crypt or near it. Arguably, even if you have no info on the crypt except that it's Wally's.

So basically Wally's Astral Crypt is vulnerable from anyone who can get a tuning fork tuned to the Astral Plane.

[Tanarii]

So if you want to go to Wally's Astral Crypt, you will be in the Astral Sea either in the crypt or near it. Arguably, even if you have no info on the crypt except that it's Wally's.
It'd need to be an Astral Crypt as well. What if it isn't a Crypt, but a Lair? Or Bungalow? Or Citadel?

Or possibly clearly named "Wally's Astral Crypt" by a large number of sentient beings, like the example given.