Finesse/Monk Weapon Clarification

[carrdrivesyou]

So I am starting a new game up, and one of my players is wanting to play a monk/rogue multiclass. The question posed however, has me scratching my head a bit. Mechanically, monk weapons are listed clear as day, and can be used in the same sense of a finesse weapon, using Dexterity as the attack/damage stat. But a rogue that MC's into monk, gets things like rapier proficiency that are finesse, but not a monk weapon. RAW, a rapier is not a monk weapon, unless you take it as one for a Kensai, or use the optional Tasha's weapon rule.

Would it be game breaking to allow all finesse weapons to count as monk weapons, so long as the character is proficient?

[nickl_2000]

So, they would get access to Scimitar, Rapier, Whip as possible Monk weapons. I really don't see much of an issue here personally, other than possibly whip.

Given a rogue/monk multiclass it will only give access to the rapier (since rogues don't get access to the scimitar and whip). I don't see it as game breaking at all, especially since that a shortsword is 1d6 (average of 3.5) and rapier is 1d8 (average of 4.5). So, over time you are giving the PC a gain of at most 2 damage per round. That 2 damage is assuming that you take monk to level 5, and hit both attacks each round. If the PC takes Monk to 11, there is absolutely no difference at all.

[Amnestic]

If you use Tasha's optional features, they have made an allowance for this.


Dedicated Weapon
2nd level monk feature
You train yourself to use a variety of weapons as monk weapons, not just simple melee weapons and shortswords. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can touch one weapon, focus your ki on it, and then count that weapon as a monk weapon until you use this feature again.
The chosen weapon must meet these criteria:
• The weapon must be a simple or martial weapon.
• You must be proficient with it.
• It must lack the heavy and special properties.

Absolutely nothing breaks if you let a monk use a rapier as their monk weapon (nor if you let a monk sneak attack with their fists, which they can't do as standard)

[Unoriginal]

So I am starting a new game up, and one of my players is wanting to play a monk/rogue multiclass. The question posed however, has me scratching my head a bit. Mechanically, monk weapons are listed clear as day, and can be used in the same sense of a finesse weapon, using Dexterity as the attack/damage stat. But a rogue that MC's into monk, gets things like rapier proficiency that are finesse, but not a monk weapon. RAW, a rapier is not a monk weapon, unless you take it as one for a Kensai, or use the optional Tasha's weapon rule.

Would it be game breaking to allow all finesse weapons to count as monk weapons, so long as the character is proficient?

The Tasha's has an optional rule that let a Monk select any one weapon they're proficient with as a Monk weapon.

[solidork]

Note that allowing things to work in the opposite direction - allowing sneak attack with non-finesse monk weapons - can be a significant power increase if combined with Polearm Master.

[JackPhoenix]

Not really. As you've said yourself, you can already do it if you use the rules from TCoE.

[HPisBS]

What's the issue, exactly? If it's just about the rapier synergy, you already said that Tasha's has you covered; all the PC needs to do is use his rapier as his dedicated weapon.

The only reason I see for needing to change the rule and allow all Dex-based weapons to count for both is if the PC is wanting to consistently alternate between weapons. Say, if he wants to melee with a rapier in one round, and range with darts in the next round or something.

Edit:
Or is the idea to let him Sneak Attack while unarmed, too? I think that'd only affect two things: giving him 1-2 more chances to land a SA if his first attack(s) miss, and being able to SA while disarmed. If that sounds find to you, then go for it.

[Gale]

Note that allowing things to work in the opposite direction - allowing sneak attack with non-finesse monk weapons - can be a significant power increase if combined with Polearm Master.

I wouldn't consider it a significant power increase, personally. In this proposed scenario, where you can sneak attack with monk weapons and unarmed strikes, a Rogue/Monk can already make an unarmed strike as a bonus action after attacking with their rapier, which would be equal to the damage you could do with a Quarterstaff and Polearm Master. Sure, Polearm Master also lets you make opportunity attacks against people who approach you; but it's not much different from Sentinel, which lets you make an opportunity attack whenever a creature attacks a target other than you, on top of other more useful effects. One could argue about which is better, but they're similar enough that I can't say Polearm Master is overpowered in comparison.

It's important to keep in mind too, that you can't use a Monk's Martial Arts ability while wearing armor or wielding a shield. So, if this hypothetical rogue wanted to mutliclass for proficiency with Medium Armor and Shields, they wouldn't be able to don them and still sneak attack with the quarterstaff.

Additionally, rogues can always use Polearm Master to provoke opportunity attacks, regardless of house rules, because opportunity attacks made with PAM do not need to be made with the polearm. If you are holding a finesse weapon in your other hand, then it's totally a valid option to attack with, and thus get sneak attack. (Jeremy Crawford did tweet that this was unintended, but his tweets aren't official rulings anymore, and this was never printed to Sage Advice.) Sentinel is also always an available option for rogues if they're looking to sneak attack more than once a round.

Ultimately, letting Rogue's sneak attack with unarmed strikes and monk weapons would be a buff, but it's a relatively small one, that would be mostly balanced out by the slower progression of class abilities, and inability to wear any armor.

[greenstone]

Would it be game breaking to allow all finesse weapons to count as monk weapons, so long as the character is proficient?

There are currently three, if I am reading right - rapier, scimitar, whip.

I'm OK with all of them (in fact, if you call a scimitar "butterfly sword" it makes sense for that to be a monk weapon).

The breaking of the game will probably happen when the player tries to add the finesse, versatile, light, awesomemcninja katana. :-)