Another Iteration of AD&D/Gestalt Multiclassing Looking for Feedback

[dmhelp]

Can choose AD&D/"gestalt" multiclassing at level 1 with two classes (gaining xp at half rate, avg hit points round down, choose one class for saving throws, average number of skills round down chosen between the two classes, armor/weapons/tools stack, spell slots as using the most optimum spell slot table not the multiclassing table, and ASIs/Extra Attack gained on the same level don't stack), but the only subclass powers gained are from the 1st level Cleric/Warlock subclass powers (PHB only) and no TCE optional powers are gained (except level 4 versatility options).

The following splits are available:
Two martial classes (chosen from Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger)
Cleric options: Barbarian/Cleric, Cleric/Fighter, Cleric/Monk, Cleric/Paladin, Cleric/Ranger, Cleric/Rogue
Druid options: Barbarian/Druid, Druid/Fighter, Druid/Monk, Druid/Ranger
Warlock options: Barbarian/Warlock, Fighter/Warlock, Monk/Warlock
Wizard options: Fighter/Wizard, Monk/Wizard, Ranger/Wizard, Rogue/Wizard

E.g. a level 9 Barbarian/Ranger would have received 96,000 xp (instead of 48,000), gain 6 hp/level, choose either Barbarian or Ranger saves, and start with 2 class skills (chosen from between both classes). A level 10 Cleric/Paladin would have received 128,000 xp (instead of 64,000), have one 1st level cleric subclass set of powers, have heavy armor/martial weapons, and have spell slots as a 10th level caster (4 3 3 3 2).

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A comparison of Barbarian/Fighter 11 (170,000 xp) vs Fighter 11/Barbarian 4 (165,000 xp):

The AD&D multiclass gets the following unique features: Fast Movement, Feral Instinct, Brutal Critical, Relentless Rage, +1 rage damage, & 1 extra rage

The standard multiclass gets the following unique features (in addition to being level 15): Barbarian subclass power(s) 1, Primal Knowledge (from TCE), 1 extra ASI, & Fighter subclass power(s) 1, 2, & 3

[PrinceOfMadness]

I'm not sure I understand why you're allowing gestalt characters to keep spell slots from both classes when you average almost everything else out.

I also don't understand the intention of removing subclass features from Wizards, Fighters, etc (anything that doesn't get them at L1). If it's to block something like a Swords Bard from stacking on an extra source of Extra Attack, I would just write in a clause to block that explicitly.

[DarknessEternal]

Barbarian 11/Fighter 11 is vastly more powerful than Barbarian 11/Fighter 4.

What problem are you trying to solve that isn't "I want more power."?

[Kane0]

What happens if you're using milestones instead of XP?

Edit: Suppose i'll put down what I used for gestalting once upon a time:
At level 1 a gestalt character chooses two classes to level up in simultaneously
The character must meet the minimum ability scores for both classes as per the multiclassing rules
The Hit Die of the character is the average of the two classes, rounded down
The lower number of skill proficiencies of the two classes is used, combining lists
The character gains starting equipment and proficiency in Saving Throws as per one of the chosen classes
The worst weapon and armor proficiencies of the two classes are used
The character gains the class features of both chosen classes
Identical class features such as Spellcasting, ASIs and Extra Attack are gained at a rate averaged between classes (eg a full caster|noncaster progresses as a half caster, a half caster|full caster progresses at 3/4 speed) and duplicates are ignored (no double Fighting styles, ASIs, etc)
Gestalt characters suffer a -1 to all ability scores (after generation and racial adjustment) and to their proficiency bonus
Gestalt characters cannot multiclass
Gestalt characters can only attune to two magic items

You're still swimming in class features but there is a definite cost involved.

[Avonar]

I mean it feels like you're taking the things people would enjoy about a Gestalt out. The biggest one being the no subclass abilities, I get the feeling that this might actually make a more generic feeling character even though you are two classes. I figure the whole point is the fun interractions between different class abilties rather than just a bit of a power boost?

Basically, I'd prefer to just normal multiclass over taking this option.

[dmhelp]

I'm not sure I understand why you're allowing gestalt characters to keep spell slots from both classes when you average almost everything else out.

I also don't understand the intention of removing subclass features from Wizards, Fighters, etc (anything that doesn't get them at L1). If it's to block something like a Swords Bard from stacking on an extra source of Extra Attack, I would just write in a clause to block that explicitly.

Good point. I'll remove the stacking spell slots. I think I was looking at some feedback from a prior iteration that was more built on modified standard multiclassing.

I was going to have some players short man a module and let everyone old school multiclass. Then I thought maybe I'd take another crack at balancing gestalt vs single classed. First I removed Sorcerer as an option (way more synergy with extra attack). Then I removed Rogue/extra attack combinations as an option (vastly superior to standard multiclassing). I thought Bards are already jack of all trades so I would remove them as an option (full caster plus lots of class features including something to do with bonus action), and they weren't an option in AD&D. They still seemed a lot stronger than a single classed character is why I removed the subclass powers.

For running a gestalt only character campaign I would surely let everyone pick up subclass powers.


Barbarian 11/Fighter 11 is vastly more powerful than Barbarian 11/Fighter 4.

What problem are you trying to solve that isn't "I want more power."?

Would anyone even play a Barbarian 11/Fighter 4? It seems like one of those broken combinations/I want to screw my character. Fighter 11 is the way to go for 3rd attack.

Bringing back the old school Elven Fighter/Magic-User is the goal.

I could further limit the combinations to some of the AD&D options:
Cleric/Fighter, Cleric/Ranger, Cleric/Rogue
Druid/Fighter, Druid/Ranger
Fighter/Wizard, Rogue/Wizard

I kind of liked the idea of Cleric/Paladin and Fighter/Warlock though.

Another suggestion I've seen previously is to racially limit the combinations.


What happens if you're using milestones instead of XP?
They would be at the nearest level based on the single classed advancement.
Level 3 single classed = level 2 gestalt
Level 5 single = level 4 gestalt
Level 11 single = level 9 gestalt
Level 15 single = level 11 gestalt
That would be a downside of choosing old school multiclassing. Your character wouldn't always advance with everyone else. It is the same thing when you advance by xp.


I mean it feels like you're taking the things people would enjoy about a Gestalt out. The biggest one being the no subclass abilities, I get the feeling that this might actually make a more generic feeling character even though you are two classes. I figure the whole point is the fun interractions between different class abilties rather than just a bit of a power boost?

Basically, I'd prefer to just normal multiclass over taking this option.

And that is fine. The goal would be to have things roughly balanced between standard characters and gestalt characters, so some people play standard characters and some people play gestalt.

Personally I think a Fighter/Wizard without subclasses has just as much flavor as an Eldritch Knight.

[DarknessEternal]

Would anyone even play a Barbarian 11/Fighter 4?
It was your example. And it's also all the evidence you need that you're idea is power for the sake of power and not actually an interesting idea.

[dmhelp]

It was your example. And it's also all the evidence you need that you're idea is power for the sake of power and not actually an interesting idea.

My example was fighter 11/barbarian 4.

[Greywander]

The more I think about this, the more I think something I've already done does what you're trying to do so much better and easier.

TL;DR summary

Make rules for gestalt characters.
Use those rules for a hybrid gestalt-multiclass system.
Your highest level in one class is your character level.
Ergo, it costs roughly double XP to level two classes at the same time.
Way less fiddly than the OP. Provides more options to players.


First of all, we need to figure out a way to handle a gestalt character, particularly in a way that we can turn around and apply the same rules to any instance of having a class level that doesn't count toward your character level. Here's a summary of my rules for how the "extra" class level is handled:

If it's your first level in that class, use the standard multiclass rules to determine what proficiencies you gain.
You don't gain HP or hit dice, but the unused hit die is "banked". You can swap a hit die with a larger one from your bank, gaining +1 HP per step increase. (The point of this is so that we always end up with the same hit dice and average HP, regardless of the order in which we took class levels. If we somehow raised all the classes to 20, we'd only have the HP and hit dice of a barbarian.)
Use your combined caster level to determine spell slots. Max caster level is 20. Optionally, cap your caster level at your character level.
You otherwise get all regular class features, including ASIs. As per the existing mutliclass rules, some features, such as Extra Attack, already don't stack.

You might not like some of these rules, in which case you're welcome to come up with your own. I like these rules for a few reasons: (a) except for your class at 1st level, the order in which you take class levels doesn't matter, i.e. the same class combination ends up with the same stats (mostly just HP), (b) you can still multiclass, i.e. you're not locked into just two classes, and (c) all class levels are treated as equal, i.e. there is no distinction between a "real" class level that counts towards your character level and an "extra" class level that does not, all I need to know your stats are how many levels you took in each class, there's no need to know which class levels are "real".

Now here's the twist: instead of a normal gestalt character, we're going to add a rule that says that your character level is always equal to your highest level in a single class, e.g. to reach 20th level you need to take a single class all the way to 20. (To clarify, you only gain one class level at a level up, just like a non-gestalt character.) This has a couple consequences:

The only time you increase your character level is when you level up your highest level class. This doesn't need to be the class you started out as, either, so you have the option to switch to a different class as your "primary" one later on just by raising that class to your highest.
If you level up any class other than your highest one, the XP cost to level up again does not increase. This means you can essentially raise two classes concurrently for roughly double the XP cost (which sounds exactly like what you're looking for).
As with a gestalt character, HP, proficiency bonus, and whatever other attributes scale with your character level, not the sum of your class levels. Your "extra" class levels are handled like the "extra" class levels a gestalt character gets.
If there are no constraints, then it is optimal to dip into literally every class at 1st level. You'll barely notice that you're behind a few thousand XP later, and the frontloading of each class means you get a lot of great abilities by dipping. One possible way to deal with this is to limit a player to only having up to a number of classes equal to their proficiency bonus (up until 17th-20th level, when they can have as many as they want). This still allows them to start with two, just like a gestalt character, but allows them to pick up more later on, albeit with significantly higher XP costs because they're higher level.

The main thing I want to point out is how you can more or less play a gestalt character by alternating between two classes your whole career, but since you have to pay XP for each class level the XP cost is basically doubled. This sounds like what you were originally going for, but is far less fiddly. What I really like about this is that it gives a lot more control to the player. If you really want to hit 20th level as soon as possible, you have the option to just blitz a single class. If you want to dip into a class without delaying your progression as much as normal multiclassing on a non-gestalt character, you can do that too. If you want to level up three or four or more classes at the same time, that's an option as well, though it will end up costing a lot more XP. Is this balanced? Will one player who blitzes a single class be about as powerful as a character who is leveling up the max allowed number of classes at the same time? No idea, but hey, they at least both had the same options available to them.

I should also mention one additional houserule I like to use that allows you to spend epic boons to gain more class levels. Those extra class levels are also handled like a gestalt character. By itself, this allows you to just level up whatever class makes sense at the time without worrying what your build at 20th level will look like. Combined with the hybrid gestalt-multiclass system described above, it allows you to continue leveling classes after 20, instead of forcing you to stop at 19 and level all your classes before hitting 20.

I'm not saying you should use the system I described above (you are, of course, welcome to if you want to), but maybe you can find some inspiration there to help create or refine your own system.

[DarknessEternal]

My example was fighter 11/barbarian 4.

Ok, point still stands. Fighter 11/Barbarian 11 blows Fighter 11/Barbarian 4 out of the water.

[dmhelp]

The more I think about this, the more I think something I've already done does what you're trying to do so much better and easier.
Make rules for gestalt characters.
Use those rules for a hybrid gestalt-multiclass system.
Your highest level in one class is your character level.
Ergo, it costs roughly double XP to level two classes at the same time.
Way less fiddly than the OP. Provides more options to players.

Thanks for showing your ideas! A big point of what I want is the original AD&D Fighter/Magic-User style though.


Ok, point still stands. Fighter 11/Barbarian 11 blows Fighter 11/Barbarian 4 out of the water.

Ok, both get: third attack, Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge x1, 3 ASIs, Martial Versatility, Indomitable x1, 3 rages, +2 rage damage, Unarmored Defense, Danger Sense, Reckless Attack

Choosing 1 good (totem) and 1 weak (champion) subclass for the standard character the comparison is:


Fight 11/Barb 4
Gestalt 11 Fight/Barb


1 ASI (could take Mobile)
Fast Movement


Remarkable Athlete
Feral Instinct


Improved Critical
Brutal Critical 1 die


Bear Spirit Dam Resist
Relentless Rage


+1 proficiency bonus
+1 rage damage


2nd Fighting Style
1 rage


+27 +4*con mod to HP



Primal Knowledge




I wouldn't call that "blows out of the water".

It looks like the feedback so far:
1 grossly overpowered
1 would pass on the option
1 would add subclasses back
2 presented alternative ways of doing it

[dmhelp]

Ok here is another version moving more towards AD&D with race restrictions.

Can also choose AD&D multiclassing at level 1 with two classes (gaining xp at half rate, avg hit points round down, choose one class for saving throws, average number of skills round down chosen between the two classes, armor/weapons/tools stack, use the most favorable class for spell slot progression not the multiclass table, ASIs gained on the same level don't stack, and Extra Attacks don't stack), but may only gain 1 subclass (determined by race) plus 1st level Cleric subclass powers if applicable (PHB only for both):

Dwarf (may choose 1 Fighter subclass): Cleric/Fighter
Elf (may choose 1 Druid or Ranger subclass): Cleric/Ranger, Druid/Fighter, Druid/Ranger, Druid/Wizard, Ranger/Wizard
Halfling (may choose 1 Rogue subclass): Cleric/Rogue, Fighter/Rogue, Monk/Rogue
Dragonborn (may choose 1 Sorcerer subclass): Cleric/Sorcerer, Fighter/Sorcerer
Gnome (may choose 1 Wizard subclass): Cleric/Wizard, Fighter/Wizard, Rogue/Wizard
Half-Elf (may choose 1 Bard or Paladin subclass): Bard/Cleric, Bard/Fighter, Cleric/Paladin
Half-Orc (may choose 1 Barbarian subclass): Barbarian/Cleric, Barbarian/Fighter
Tiefling (may choose 1 Warlock subclass): Fighter/Warlock

Additionally "gestalt" multiclassed characters do not gain the background feat(s) given at 1st level (I give 1-2 free feats at 1st level in addition to vHuman/Custom Lineage).

Milestone conversion if not using xp: Standard levels 2-7 are minus one level, levels 8-11 are minus two levels, levels 12-13 are minus three levels, levels 14-18 are minus four levels, and levels 19-20 are minus five levels (e.g. a level 15 standard character would be level 11 "gestalt")

In AD&D/2e, Fighter weapon specialization was single classed only. So another potential restriction would be to only grant Extra Attack (2) & (3) to standard characters (single or multiclassed)....

So advantages of a standard character would be:

can play vHuman/Custom Lineage/MTF/VGM races
1-2 background feats at level 1
faster leveling (especially pertinent if a single classed caster)
more subclass options (Zealot, Samurai, Hexblade, Bladesinger, etc.) and standard multiclassing
possibly the only way to get third/fourth attack if I used that rule to further handicap "gestalt"